Studiologic Numa Piano

Posted by: Qbert

Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/14/10 03:39 PM

Any advice on this keyboard?

Or, at least, on TP/100 keyboard?

I got a look on youtube, but the official demos are not that significant.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/14/10 03:50 PM

I have been considering FATAR Numa Nano/ Nero / Piano in the past. But because of a complete lack of pro- or user reviews, the absence of any demo units in the stores and the total silence you will encounter when you try to obtain any information from Fatar / Studiologic through email or website, I gave up. Under other circumstances I would give it a try, but for now FATAR/StudioLogic is "hands-off". Too big a risk that you end up with a big disappointment. And who do you turn to then...?

According to the very few remarks that are out there the TP100 is quite OK, but really NOT comparable to a realistic piano keybed (like RM3 ?). And the piano sounds in the Numa Piano are so..so; more the sound of yesterdays short and looped piano samples then modern implementations. I don't expect it to be better than let's say the Casio PX3-BK, but that's only from the very limited data I could gather. If you are in any position to try a Numa board anywhere in a store, that would be great, but I assume you posted this thread because they are nowhere to be found ;-)
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/14/10 04:31 PM

Now, look at the action (see my thread "actions compared").
Read the description at the Fatar website for the TP 100, but be aware you must be able to read the unwritten stuff between the lines ;-)

Ok they write it is a great keyboard and closer to a piano than all others in this class. That means nothing. They have to write this because they all write this, so forget it.

However you see it has short keys and -according to the description- a very stable chassis. It can reduce the size and weight and cost of the total design.

So the primary development goal of Fatar was not to make a piano action with high authencity, it was to make a keyboard that is pianotypic and very transportable and very reliable and stable.

I dont know if it fullfills these goals, but if it does it can be a great tool for gigging, and as a controller but not a great tool to play classical style.

Peter
Posted by: curt88

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/14/10 04:47 PM

I have been waiting for YEARS for a MIDI controller like the Studiologic NUMA. I play solo piano and have NO need for internal sounds. All I wanted was a shiny black case with no knobs or sliders with an amazing piano action that would send MIDI data to my PC. So I was stoked when I saw this thing!! Let's say that it hits 4 out of the 5 items on my list but unfortunately, the one it misses SERIOUSLY is a deal-breaker... the action is so NOT like a piano.

I got one a few weeks ago (mail order) and sent it back after two days. The action is VERY heavy and very synth-like. Odd! Acoustic piano action should have a little bounce to it when you strike the key and remove your finger. The action on the NUMA seems to constantly push your finger back up - very spongy, just like a synth key.

And it ships with a momentary switch as its damper pedal. Holy COW what a mistake this is. It's just impossible to play piano expressively without half-pedaling and that requires a continuous controller pedal. The NUMA is extrememly finicky as to which continuous controller pedals it wants to play nice with. I was unable to get it working with two different manufacturer's pedals (could get it to send continuous data but the damper would remain up no matter what position the foot pedal was in).

Take my critisisms as those of a solo pianist. Your needs may differ. Asthetically, it's perfect. Performance-wise, it's far from perfect.

NOW, if we could get the Kawai RM3 action inside a shiny black box with no knobs or sliders.... YYEEEAHH!!

Curt
Posted by: Strat

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/10 04:29 PM

Different strokes and all...

I personally enjoy my Nero quite a bit and find the touch more satisfying to play on than other similarly-priced models. I played on a bunch of Roland HP-307s, most of which had a similar touch... but at 3x the price.

I played *one* HP-307 that had the best touch I have ever experienced, but didn't have the funds back then to buy it. It was a demo and had been played by a whole bunch of people, so I'm unsure if the fantastic touch I felt was an anomaly or simply the result of it being broken in.

The Numa Nero for my needs is fantastic. It's compact, light, the touch is great and a huge upgrade from what I previously had used, and it didn't cost me 3k or more.

I'm willing to spend to get quality, but until I find a better touch that I can test prior to forking over 3x or more what my Nero costs, I'll stick with my Fatar. smile

FTR, I never tried the RM3 action as we don't have any Kawai dealers in Toronto. None that I ever saw, anyway. frown
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 05/23/11 10:18 AM

I recently bought a Numa Piano and I absolutely love this thing. Through the years I've owned several Kurzweils (K-1000/PC3), Yamahas (S90-ES), Nords (Stage/E3) and there were things that I liked and disliked about each. Some worked well by themselves, but not in a band mix (Kurzweil/Nord), and some sounded great in a mix, but didn't sound like an acoustic piano by themselves (S90 ES). What I had been looking for was a keyboard that "felt" like a piano and sounded like a piano by itself & in the mix, and wouldn't break my back to move. The Numa nailed my criteria to a "T". The fact that it's a great controller, and came in way under my budget is a real bonus. It's a shame that there aren't many out there for people to check out. Everybody that has played mine has really dug it.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 05/23/11 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
I recently bought a Numa Piano and I absolutely love this thing. Through the years I've owned several Kurzweils (K-1000/PC3), Yamahas (S90-ES), Nords (Stage/E3) and there were things that I liked and disliked about each. Some worked well by themselves, but not in a band mix (Kurzweil/Nord), and some sounded great in a mix, but didn't sound like an acoustic piano by themselves (S90 ES). What I had been looking for was a keyboard that "felt" like a piano and sounded like a piano by itself & in the mix, and wouldn't break my back to move. The Numa nailed my criteria to a "T". The fact that it's a great controller, and came in way under my budget is a real bonus. It's a shame that there aren't many out there for people to check out. Everybody that has played mine has really dug it.

TomF, compared to the pianos in the same $1.5k bracket (Kawai MP6, Kurzweil SP4-8, Roland RD300NX, Yamaha CP50 [the latter two a little more expensive] ), on paper the Numa Piano seems to fall short in what it offers. Others have suggested that the Casio PX-3 outshines the Numa at half the price. Did you pay the full price, and if so, is it really worth that?

Certainly the weight is appealing, but are the sounds up there with the likes of Roland SN and Kawai's new samples for example? What's the build quality like?

Having the Numa Organ already, I'm very keen to know more about the piano, but of course, no one I know of has the Numa available to try.
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 05/23/11 01:21 PM

I played the Numa Piano at Namm in Jan. As I might have written here or the Keyboard Corner, I was very surprised and impressed at how good it sounded and played.
It seemed pretty responsive with an even sound and action throughout the keyboard.
I much preferred it to the Kurzweil SP4-8, which shared the same corporate booth and was a few yards away. For the short time I had with it and considering the din of Namm, I also liked it as much or better then the Roland 300NX. The build quality seemed equal to the Casio (fairly cheap) but I thought it played and sounded better.

I would consider having one for a lightweight board except for one thing---they only came in white. Sorry can't do white.....

If the color doesn't bother you, I think it's a pretty cool little DP, at least those were my first impressions.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 05/23/11 04:14 PM

Funny, according to the specs, the NUMA Nano, Numa Piano AND Kurzweil SP4-8 all use the same TP100 keybed. Strange that the Kurzweil had such a different feel. I assume it was not the tactile feel of the keybed, but the interaction between the keybed and the internal sound engine ?

In that case a Numa Nano with a nice software piano is not such a bad option either.

Or the SP4-8 after all, if you're pretending the internal sounds is just a free gift and use your own sounds. It will provide you more sturdy hardware than the Numa Nano, better and more reliable MIDI implementation AND a company behind it that actually cares about their customers and monitors feedback and supplies firmware updates on a regular basis with fixes and enhancements...(try contacting FATAR/STUDIOLOGIC its as if they don't exist).

Cheers, J
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/20/11 11:46 PM

I've got a PX-3 that I use for rehearsals, and while it is a nice keyboard for the price, it isn't even close to the Numa. Sound and even actions are very subjective, but I prefer all of the sounds (piano/EP/Clav) on the Numa to those on my Nord Stage Classic (except organ). The strings are also really nice. I also prefer the Numa action to that of my Stage. The unit also weighs a lot less and cost a lot less than the stage. I don't own a Roland 300RD300NX, but I have played one and I preferred the action and sounds of the Numa, but the Roland has a LOT more internal sounds than the Numa.
I can't comment on the new Kurzweil or new Kawai because I haven't played one. The Kurzweils that I have owned tended to sound nice when played solo, but tended to not cut well in the mix.
I do like the Yamaha CPs (I play one at church) a lot, but I was looking for something that weighed a lot less and worked better as a controller.
I also have a Numa organ and consider the build quality of both to be excellent and feel that they are both well worth the money.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/22/11 09:34 AM

Hi Tom
Can you comment on the amount of decay on the Numa piano sound? Typical pre 2010 sound that drops quickly? or does it actually ring out at a descent level? It sounds like a neat DP and I'm surprised to hear that you prefer the sound over the RD300NX (Piano sound I suppose)
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 08:07 AM

The decay is very smooth, long, and natural sounding (as in a good grand piano). To quantify that, I just hit middle C, and it sustained smoothly for 12 seconds. I really don't know for sure, but I suspect that the sound is both sampled and modeled since there is no detectable "looping" going on, and the sound is much smoother than samples generally sound.
I think there is a lot of confusion between the Numa/Numa Nero/Numa Nano & Numa Piano. Any review (or comments) that you have read prior to Jan 2011 do NOT refer to the Numa Piano, they are referring to one of the other products since the Numa Piano was just released this year.
I've always liked Roland pianos, and of course, it's all very subjective, but I've found that the Roland pianos sound great "in the mix" with a lot of music, but wouldn't be my first choice for a solo piano gig playing jazz or classical music. I gig regularly with an 8 piece R&B group, a 5 piece blues band, a jazz piano trio, and do an occasional solo piano jazz gig and the Numa Piano does a great job for me on all these venues.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 09:09 AM

Tom,

Would you care to comment on the EPs - what sort of character do they have?

BTW, since I've read a few glowing reports from you on the Numa Piano, do you mind me asking whether you have any kind of tie-in with the manufacturer? I'm looking for a replacement for my NP88 (just sold) and need some completely unbiased opinions (if you know what I mean!).
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 01:41 PM

The only thing I've seen on the Numa Piano is a couple YouTube videos of Joey D playing one. It sounds good in the video. I haven't seen one at any music store around Nashville.

Side note, Tom F, have you played the Nord Piano? It has a Nord spec/modified Fatar TP40 action. The action isn't comparable to the top of line actions from Kawai, Roland, or Yamaha, but it beats the pants out of Korg and Casio, and more importantly it's as responsive and works with the internal sounds of the NP88 as well as any. I wonder how the TP100 compares to the TP40.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 01:55 PM

No, I have no association with Numa or any other manufacturer. Anything I post is strictly MY opinion.
The Numa has 3 EPs. I love the Rhodes sound, it sounds a LOT like a suitcase Rhodes (especially with the Tremolo effect) I had years ago. The 2nd EP is a Wurliter, which is also excellent, and the third is a DX7 sounding EP which I'm not in love with, but it's ok. The clav is killer! My favorite digital clav sound was on my Yamaha S90ES, and this one really reminds me of it (especially using Chorus or Phaser).
I've never owned (or even played) an NP88, so I really don't want to attempt to compare the Numa to one, but I do prefer the sound of the acoustic pianos/EPs & clav on the Numa to those in my Nord Stage and my Electro 3. It's really hard to describe the differences in sound ... it's really more of a "playability" thing. Sometimes the Nords sounded good to me (they always recorded well and sounded great with headphones) but sometimes I was frustrated trying to get a good "live" sound. The Numa is always a pleasure to sit down and play.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 02:12 PM

Tom,

Thanks for that info. I do also have one question about the action. I was watching a YouTube video demoing the internal sounds, and it looked a little like the guy had difficulty with getting notes to trigger accurately at lower velocities. How do you find the TP100 action in the Numa Piano? I know it's a compromise based on keeping the weight right down, but can you play expressively throughout the dynamic range?
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 02:20 PM

I haven't played the Nord Piano and I don't know if it's different than the Stage or not. I like the action on the Stage though and the Numa Piano has a "similar" feel. The differences are; the Numa has a "graded" action like a grand piano (and high end digitals like Yamaha/Roland/Kawai etc.), and it also has a number (I don't know how many offhand) of different velocities than can be selected. It also has a "user definable" velocity. You just select "user", and play for a bit, and it analyzes your touch and gives you your own velocity setting to use. It's kind of cool, but I haven't messed with it much, the "stock" settings work well for me. I personally really like the action and rank it with the Yamahas and Rolands. BTW: I almost didn't buy the Numa Piano due to the color ... I HATED it! I was hoping it would grow on my (like the Red did), but I still don't really like it yet, but I have learned to live with it!
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 02:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
I haven't played the Nord Piano and I don't know if it's different than the Stage or not. I like the action on the Stage though and the Numa Piano has a "similar" feel. The differences are; the Numa has a "graded" action like a grand piano (and high end digitals like Yamaha/Roland/Kawai etc.), and it also has a number (I don't know how many offhand) of different velocities than can be selected. It also has a "user definable" velocity. You just select "user", and play for a bit, and it analyzes your touch and gives you your own velocity setting to use. It's kind of cool, but I haven't messed with it much, the "stock" settings work well for me. I personally really like the action and rank it with the Yamahas and Rolands. BTW: I almost didn't buy the Numa Piano due to the color ... I HATED it! I was hoping it would grow on my (like the Red did), but I still don't really like it yet, but I have learned to live with it!


Tom thanks so much. Sorry we're all picking your brain! But I appreciate your input. It appears that the Numa Piano has a superior action for piano playing than the NP88. I personally would love to have a graded action, and the User Velocity setting is absolutely brilliant.

Hey and if you don't like the color, surely you could have someone turn the white parts to black. smile

Vox, so the NP88 ended up not working out for you? I feel a little responsible for you forking out the dough... frown sorry man. I really believe in the NP88 and Nord's approach to producing and supporting professional instruments. I admit, I've been a bit of a loud mouth cheerleader when it comes to the NP88. I works really well for me, but it's obviously not for everyone. Shoot, I feel guilty now for talking you into it!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes

Vox, so the NP88 ended up not working out for you? I feel a little responsible for you forking out the dough... frown sorry man. I really believe in the NP88 and Nord's approach to producing and supporting professional instruments. I admit, I've been a bit of a loud mouth cheerleader when it comes to the NP88. I works really well for me, but it's obviously not for everyone. Shoot, I feel guilty now for talking you into it!


Zac, I bought it because I was really curious and really hoping it would work out - and it was very useful to have your opinion. I was already a little on the fence having owned the Electro 3 and not finding it quite right for me, so it's not like I was going in totally blind. Please don't feel guilty!!

There were many things I liked about the NP: the sensible weight, the intuitive layout, the Live section, the downloadable pianos, the quality of sound output. In the end, though, it was something indefinable about the nature of the samples that didn't quite speak to me eloquently enough. Having previously owned a piano with a good deal of physical modeling involved, I think I was subconsciously hoping for that more "alive" sound and responsive dynamics that modeling provides; that is something very difficult to recreate with velocity-fixed samples. Maybe that's why I find the FP-7F more playable as a piano, since there is something more than just samples involved.
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 03:07 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes

Vox, so the NP88 ended up not working out for you? I feel a little responsible for you forking out the dough... frown sorry man. I really believe in the NP88 and Nord's approach to producing and supporting professional instruments. I admit, I've been a bit of a loud mouth cheerleader when it comes to the NP88. I works really well for me, but it's obviously not for everyone. Shoot, I feel guilty now for talking you into it!


Zac, I bought it because I was really curious and really hoping it would work out - and it was very useful to have your opinion. I was already a little on the fence having owned the Electro 3 and not finding it quite right for me, so it's not like I was going in totally blind. Please don't feel guilty!!

There were many things I liked about the NP: the sensible weight, the intuitive layout, the Live section, the downloadable pianos, the quality of sound output. In the end, though, it was something indefinable about the nature of the samples that didn't quite speak to me eloquently enough. Having previously owned a piano with a good deal of physical modeling involved, I think I was subconsciously hoping for that more "alive" sound and responsive dynamics that modeling provides; that is something very difficult to recreate with velocity-fixed samples. Maybe that's why I find the FP-7F more playable as a piano, since there is something more than just samples involved.


Well, I still feel a little guilty for boasting so much about it. In the end, all the matters is how it agrees with you. You know what's crazy, is the NP88 samples to me, absolutely blow the AvantGrand samples out of the water. The AG N1 sounds rather dead with headphones in comparison to the Nord's imperfect samples loaded with modeled string/sympathetic resonance and that pedal sample is too cool...and you can turn all the extra sounds off when/if you don't want them.

I agree with you, for now, the Sampled/Modeled approach seems to be the way to go. Now if Nord could launch a series of samples from the various acoustic piano companies and then add modeling to them as well *faint* that'd be the sound to beat. What will you use to replace the NP88? Perhaps the Numa Piano? smile
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 03:42 PM

Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
What will you use to replace the NP88? Perhaps the Numa Piano? smile

I'm back on that nauseating merry-go-round where I really can't decide. Tom really likes his Numa Piano, but will I? It's really down to the Numa and the Kawai MP6. The Numa is lightweight, but the Kawai has, by all accounts, a really accomplished action.

I've crossed the Roland RD-300NX and FP-4F off the list - I'm really not that taken with Roland's EPs. The Yamaha CP50 is going to give me conniptions with that interface during a show. The Korg SV-1's APs were lackluster IMO (although I've not tried Soundpack 2). Maybe I could just add a GEM RP-X to one of my Rolands, but I'm not a fan of MIDI-linked devices.

I've been through so many DPs in the last couple of years, and in some ways, for live use, I found the humble (and outdated) Casio PX-310 and the Korg SP250 as good as much, much more expensive boards. Go figure!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 05:58 PM

OK, I decided to take a gamble on the NUMA. I'm a little bit fearful, given Studiologic's not-so-good reputation for reliability - and the rather condensed action - but the NUMA organ has been fine so far, apart from a couple of minor software bugs. I would very much like to have tried the MP6, but I really need to focus on keeping the weight down.

I listened quite a few times to the various Italian demos, and the AP samples seem quite nice. It's not so easy to tell with the EPs (people keep playing FM pianos in demos, which I dislike with a vengeance!), but EP1 seems quite expressive. If, in total, it proves to be better than my FP-4, I'll be happy.
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 07:09 PM

I heard a Latin jazz guy about a year ago at an outdoor festival I was on using that Korg 250 and it sounded great, he was a burning player.

Like I said earlier in the thread I thought the Numa was cool but from past experience, playing something at NAMM never means it will work for me or not. Plus it was so long ago...I actually forgot how it played or sounded. confused

I'd get too much grief from the guys around town with a white piano-so till they come up with a different color scheme of black or grey unfortunately it's off my radar--which is a drag because it might be the perfect thing for me.

Originally Posted By: voxpops
There were many things I liked about the NP: the sensible weight, the intuitive layout, the Live section, the downloadable pianos, the quality of sound output. In the end, though, it was something indefinable about the nature of the samples that didn't quite speak to me eloquently enough. Having previously owned a piano with a good deal of physical modeling involved, I think I was subconsciously hoping for that more "alive" sound and responsive dynamics that modeling provides; that is something very difficult to recreate with velocity-fixed samples. Maybe that's why I find the FP-7F more playable as a piano, since there is something more than just samples involved.


vp-I hear ya on the Nord Piano. You do a better job of putting it into words then I do. There's something about the sound of that thing through speakers live that just doesn't do it for me. I'd be taking a leap of faith with the new samples and to be honest, I'd have lower expectations going in. Basically I just want something lightweight.

On the other hand $1900 is a lot of dough and if you can find something that works or sounds better to you then the Nord like the SV1 or Numa Piano, for even less $$$, why not go with it.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/23/11 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


I'd get too much grief from the guys around town with a white piano-so till they come up with a different color scheme of black or grey unfortunately it's off my radar--which is a drag because it might be the perfect thing for me.

You know, I thought the same until I got my white FP4. At the time it was a really good deal, so I swallowed my pride and went for it. Much to my amazement the guys in the band thought it looked cool! Now I have two white Rolands, plus the Numa organ in white, so I've got used to it.


Quote:
$1900 is a lot of dough and if you can find something that works or sounds better to you then the Nord like the SV1 or Numa Piano, for even less $$$, why not go with it.


Yes, having dropped a few hundred on the NP resale, I really wanted to keep the cost down. If the SV-1 had been a 76 instead of a 73, I might have gone for it, but the 73 was just that little bit short for me, and the 88 was getting into the same weight category as the MP6. I really had GAS for the SV a year or so ago (loved the Rhodes), but in the end I've been swayed towards the NUMA piano by its ultra-simplicity, coupled with its weight and the fact that the AP sounds very good. The big bonus is that it should work well as a controller for VSTs etc. when I give up on trying to find the perfect hardware solution - and that day is now VERY near for me!
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 02:03 AM

Definitely let me know how that Numa P is working for you when get it vp.
Maybe I'll hold off here on getting either the NP or SV1.

What the heck, maybe with a white piano I would appear less hostile, unfriendly and more approachable to the audience. laugh

I was listening to some demos Keyboard Mag put up on Soundcloud and it sounded kinda digital harsh and not a real high end sound in general.
http://soundcloud.com/keyboardmag/sets/03-2011-studiologic-numa-piano


Then listening to Joey D. play it on a live gig, it sounds pretty cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yN9CJNV4WE

As usual though, the player and context have a lot to with it... cool
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 06:01 AM

Thanks for your insight, Tom. I really like the simplicity of the Numa and it could very well take the spot from my Roland RD300NX. The only sound that I hang on to in that board is the 'Mellow Piano' which is very organic and has great decay. Sure would be nice to have a shorter, lightweight board. But no stores carries it around here, so I would have to take a chance and buy online.

Looking forward to hear your review, Voxpops!
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 08:53 AM

"I would appear less hostile, unfriendly and more approachable to the audience." Unfortunately, that hasn't worked in my case. crazy
I am going to be painting the endblocks and the 1" strip along the bottom to kind of make it look a little sleaker and match the organ better. I think I'm going to like the looks of it a LOT better with that done.
For those who are considering buying one, I hope you like it as much as I like mine. Next to music, I don't think there's anything more subjective than instruments. It's all about finding something that works for you. It's really a shame that it's so hard to "audition" these things ... maybe someday it will be easier. If anyone is in the Detroit area you're welcome to check mine out.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

I was listening to some demos Keyboard Mag put up on Soundcloud and it sounded kinda digital harsh and not a real high end sound in general.
http://soundcloud.com/keyboardmag/sets/03-2011-studiologic-numa-piano

I found that link yesterday (before I pulled the trigger) and couldn't get the tracks to play. mad Now I've played them this morning and I remember having listened a few months ago - deciding then that the Numa wasn't for me. They do sound pretty low end, I have to admit, and not something worth giving up the NP for. However, I will reserve judgment until the box arrives. If necessary, that Numa will go straight back on eBay and I will finally succumb to a Kawai.

I shall report back in a few days...
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Definitely let me know how that Numa P is working for you when get it vp.
Maybe I'll hold off here on getting either the NP or SV1.

What the heck, maybe with a white piano I would appear less hostile, unfriendly and more approachable to the audience. laugh

I was listening to some demos Keyboard Mag put up on Soundcloud and it sounded kinda digital harsh and not a real high end sound in general.
http://soundcloud.com/keyboardmag/sets/03-2011-studiologic-numa-piano


Then listening to Joey D. play it on a live gig, it sounds pretty cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yN9CJNV4WE

As usual though, the player and context have a lot to with it... cool


I think it both the Grand Piano 1 and Bright Grand sound good until you really attack it, then that ugly DP sound rears its head. But, it sounds better to me than a lot of boards out there. Who does the sampling for the Numa Piano, and what pianos do they use?

Side note, but the guy who is 'narrating' us through the sample demos is killing me with that northern accent! crazy
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 12:48 PM

Just downloaded the Soundpack 1 update for the NUMA. It's 120Mb so there must be some substantial changes. It would be interesting to know whether any of the DPs leave the factory with the new soundpack. Tom, have you upgraded? I'm doubting whether the Keyboard Mag review unit had the upgrade as I think it's a fairly recent revision.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 02:26 PM

"Grand Piano 1 and Bright Grand sound good until you really attack it, then that ugly DP sound rears its head." The Numa piano has an amazing dynamic range available depending on how you strike the keys and which velocity sensitivity level you use. I found that the "harshness" comes into play when you really hit the keys hard because you are actually overdriving it and redlining the input downstream. I solved this problem by using a Radial JDI after the keyboard. I used the Radial JDI previously to "sum" my Nords to mono (without phase distortion) and send a balanced signal. With the Numa/JDI combination the harshness disappears and a nice, smooth, quiet, balanced, mic level signal is produced. If you don't have a JDI, you will need to pay close attention to your velocity settings to make sure you're not overdriving the input(s) of your mixer/preamp/recorder.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 03:20 PM

Useful info, Tom. Thanks!

Did you see my question about the soundpack revision? Have you upgraded?
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 04:01 PM

No, I heard there was an upgrade available with some substantial improvements, but I'm in the middle of doing a bunch of festivals and some recordings and I didn't want to risk any unforseen issues during my busy season. I got bit a few years back doing an OS upgrade on a Kurzweil module that locked up and crashed during the upgrade, so these days I either have a backup instrument available, or at least some extra time available just in case. Where is the download available? I've got some slack time coming up in a few weeks and I'd like to get on that.
That is one really nice thing about the Nords ... easy upgrades and nice loader.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
No, I heard there was an upgrade available with some substantial improvements, but I'm in the middle of doing a bunch of festivals and some recordings and I didn't want to risk any unforseen issues during my busy season. I got bit a few years back doing an OS upgrade on a Kurzweil module that locked up and crashed during the upgrade, so these days I either have a backup instrument available, or at least some extra time available just in case. Where is the download available? I've got some slack time coming up in a few weeks and I'd like to get on that.
That is one really nice thing about the Nords ... easy upgrades and nice loader.


Oh, I hear you! It scares the pants off me doing these firmware updates - particularly when they're as large as this one:
Numa Piano Pack 1 Update
You can find the piano loader software in the same part of the website.

What doesn't fill me with confidence is the fact that Studiologic appears to have three or four unconnected websites, and it's extremely difficult to find your way to the downloads section.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to compare before and after.

Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/24/11 05:16 PM

Thanks! I'll keep you posted when I do it. I did an upgrade on my Numa organ last winter and it wasn't too difficult. I still haven't downloaded any of the "new" models though (for the same reason I mentioned). Now you've got me all excited about doing the upgrade. I'm going to have to force myself not to mess with it for a few weeks, and it isn't going to be easy. grin
PS: I just pulled up the website for Guitar Center and saw both the Numa Organ & Numa Piano listed for sale on it. Maybe they will eventually stock these things so that people can check them out.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/26/11 11:39 PM

OK, this is looking interesting!

The Numa Piano arrived a few hours ago. It was nice that they included a user manual - it would have been even nicer if it had been the correct one! I set it up, turned on and ran through the sounds: generally favorable. Action: rather like some of the Privias I've owned; quite heavy and will take a bit of practice to overcome the tendency for softer notes to register a lower velocity than expected, but generally quite playable. (I haven't tried the auto velocity curve function yet.)

I then took the bull by the horns and upgraded the firmware and software. I nearly screwed that up as I wasn't sure when the main file had finished loading. But in the end I think I got it all loaded. What a difference! The first piano sound is big, sparkling and just sounds great. The second piano (labeled bright) now seems more like the original #1 piano with more mellow pianissimo sounds, and is also very usable. The Rhodes (unchanged) growls and barks nicely with higher velocities and has a more bell-like tine sound when played softer. The Wurli (also unchanged) is a pretty good likeness. The Clav spits with a nice fast attack (quite a lot more playable than the pre-update original). The pads organs and basses are so-so, but at least there is a basic rotary speaker sim that can be controlled by the mod wheel. That wheel is also used to control tremolo and phaser speed etc., along with a dedicated depth-control knob.

It seems like there's lots of midi functionality built in, and easy to access from the front panel. I haven't really looked into the additional controls, but at first glance it looks like there's most of what you need right there in front of you.

I had one little scare. After inadvertently interrupting the update process I thought I may have screwed things up. But after I rebooted and reset the factory programs, the piano seemed to play and operate fine (apart from the Bright Piano being more mellow!). However, when I changed from program 12 to program 1, the sound cut out. I rebooted and everything was fine. I'll keep an eye out for other little anomalies or hiccups.

But, with just a few minutes (and I stress this) playing time on this board, it's looking very promising. There is, as Tom says, a huge dynamic range available (much more than the NP) - and it sounds pretty darn good! The action will take a little bit of time to adjust to, but I expected that given the very low weight of this keyboard. Right now, I really am pleasantly surprised. I'll try to give a more detailed review when I've spent some "quality" time with the board.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 01:56 PM

Quick update:
No sympathetic resonance or (as far as I can tell) damper resonance. So if you're looking for an acoustic-facsimile, this probably won't do it for you. However, it sounds pretty good even without these subtleties.

This would suggest to me that the AP sounds are straight samples, without modeling. Less easy to tell with the EPs. I have to say that the Rhodes is really rather good.

It's looking like a keeper for gigging purposes. I find the sounds very pleasing for the most part, and with the OS update, there are additional refinements to the effects section that make it more immediate. I would be less inclined to go for it as a home acoustic-substitute, simply because technology now allows for a more refined piano experience (as with the FP-7F etc.).
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 03:28 PM

I don't think there are any key-up samples (although I could be wrong), or pedal noises. Certainly this is nowhere near as sophisticated as my old GEM PRP800 (another Italian DP), and yet I like it.

I'm sure this DP will make its presence felt in a band context. And, with that in mind, a middle cut/boost knob in addition to bass and treble eq would have been helpful, as the mids could do with taming a little.

Maybe the samples are longer than normal, I'm not sure. Unlike Tom, I think there is looping going on. But what they have put in there seems to work well.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 03:47 PM

Thanks for your words on the Numa P so far, Voxpops. Is the decay rate around the same as on your FP-7F?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
Thanks for your words on the Numa P so far, Voxpops. Is the decay rate around the same as on your FP-7F?

Thomsurf, I think it's similar. Certainly it doesn't have the short attack/decay of the Privias.

I am pretty convinced that these are looped samples but they may be a little longer than usual. We're certainly not talking ultra-sophistication. The Nord is a much more polished instrument in many respects, but the Numa doesn't exhibit the traits that I found irritating in the Nord: lack of dynamic range, that slightly "harpsichordy" sound from the middle register, a sense that there should be more timbre variation available from the EPs. And of course it's only a little over half the price of the Nord. And when I compare the Numa to the Rolands, I am much more pleased with the EP sound and response.

However, I really don't want to paint an unrealistically glowing picture of the Numa. Having just swapped the Nord for the Numa, I really want to like it, so I may be a little more favorably disposed than someone without a vested interest! All I can say is that I think it will work fine for my needs in a band context (and will save my back from additional wear and tear), but for home use where the subtleties and nuances of sound engines are more apparent, the FP-7F will be my go-to instrument.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 07:52 PM

How about a DPBSD recording for dewster?

James
x
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 08:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
How about a DPBSD recording for dewster?

James
x

I was wondering when I'd be asked for that! wink Yes, if I can work out how to do it, I'll try to get something to Dewster. It won't be immediately as I have a busy schedule right now, but I'll get on to that when I have some time available.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 11:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
How about a DPBSD recording for dewster?

Yes please!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/27/11 11:17 PM

Fairly heavy stretching is involved as well. One or two of the groups stand out rather obviously, particularly in the upper mids. This is clearly no Roland (or Kawai) rival in the technology department.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/28/11 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
"Grand Piano 1 and Bright Grand sound good until you really attack it, then that ugly DP sound rears its head." The Numa piano has an amazing dynamic range available depending on how you strike the keys and which velocity sensitivity level you use. I found that the "harshness" comes into play when you really hit the keys hard because you are actually overdriving it and redlining the input downstream.


I think that there are many DP's that have the "harshness" you describe above, especially when you play with extreme force of attack, "then that ugly DP sounds rears its head."

My current Casio AP-620 shows this same behavior, when playing fortissimo (or, louder) octaves from the Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 1. Have included a test recording* here, to illustrate that:

http://www.box.net/shared/lkdj2pvn3q21ajfmeent

Must be that the sample levels are exceeded in the loudest playing, and, things get a bit jangled up due to being overdriven.

One has to get the best Kawai's, Yamaha's, or, Roland's, to avoid this.

* Test recording includes:

1) Opening section from Piano Concerto No. 1, of Rachmaninoff.
2) Snippets from the Scherzo No. 2, of Chopin.
3) Two-handed chromatic octave scales.

Please note that this recording is an example of the loudest possible playing on a DP, with the chromatic octave scales at the end being the heaviest playing of all. Had I been playing my meager little acoustic Wurlitzer spinet, many bass strings could have snapped!
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/28/11 02:59 AM

Thanks for posting all your initial thoughts vp.....
Posted by: pv88

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/28/11 03:07 AM

Hi Dave,

My playing is far from perfect, however, it is very loud...
(Only heavy handed pianists seem to appreciate this.)
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/28/11 05:30 PM

OK, the software (update) is definitely buggy. I have double-checked by reloading the update pack. When programming, everything goes fine until, suddenly, the sound quits altogether, and nothing other than a restart will bring it back. Sometimes this happens when flicking through presets as well. This also means that whatever effects you were last programming gets flashed to ALL preset patches. This has now occurred on at least three occasions, so either my machine or the software, or both, is at fault. I suspect it is the software, and connected to the part of the update that now allows the piano to remember the effects settings on the fly.

Fortunately, the piano is very easy to tweak live, so this is not a deal-breaker, but it is annoying, and seems to reinforce Studiologic's reputation in this regard. I shall contact Studiologic and ask them to send me the previous software until the problem is resolved.

I shall persevere with this DP as I do quite like it - especially since activating the automatic velocity curve function, which works very well - but if the manufacturer wants to compete in the mainstream, they're going to have to put a bit more effort into programming and debugging their software. The way things stand right now, I think the Numa Piano is seriously overpriced for what it offers, and doesn't stack up with the likes of the PX-3 for value. BUT, it still has something about it that keeps me interested, and when I compare it to the FP-4 (my alternative lightweight board) it definitely has the edge, sound-wise; however, in terms of quality/reliability I suspect the Roland is ahead by a wide margin.

PLEASE SEE MY POST BELOW FOR A RESOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/28/11 07:24 PM

Right! Now I think I get it. You can't store settings for all 12 sounds in one patch - the system can't cope. You have to store the setting for one sound per patch. It's a bit rudimentary, but at least the thing hasn't crapped out on me since I discovered this. So, I am much happier now!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/28/11 11:50 PM

The piano now seems much more stable. I have managed to program in 25 sounds without a glitch, and all seems well. I will watch to see if the sound cut-out problem reappears; if not, I'm happy to move forward with the Numa as is, without trying to revert to earlier firmware or some other drastic solution.

Next big test will be to see how the band responds, and how I feel playing it in a group setting. Watch this space (if I haven't bored you all to tears with my Numa saga)!
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 05:29 AM

Not boring at all, Voxpops. It's great to follow your experience step by step. Keep it coming!
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 11:24 AM

Thanks Vox for the updates. We've really heard very little about the Numa Piano so it's nice to hear back to very useful feedback and input. There's been several folks on here interested, but because of the seemingly lack of reviews, lack of info in general, I think the Numa Piano has remained relatively anonymous.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 01:05 PM

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I think you'll really start enjoying it even more using it live. I LOVE the weight of the thing and have found that (for me anyway) the APs work well in the mix and I get a LOT of compliments on the Rhodes sound. Your comments on the upgrade improvements REALLY made me want to go ahead with the upgrade, but I'd be in deep doo-doo if I messed it up with 3 festivals coming up this week, so I'd best hold off on that. I did get mine painted so now the sides, keyrail, and the strip under the front are all black. It looks a lot less "chunky" and matches the Numa Organ a lot better now.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 07:36 PM

How long did it take to do the update? Is there anything I should watch out for?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
How long did it take to do the update? Is there anything I should watch out for?

Tom, the update took about an hour (although I did it three times before I got the issues sorted!). There are three files to update: the first takes a few seconds; the second is the big one that takes the best part of an hour (be careful not to interrupt it); the third is like the first - a few seconds.

It's not a difficult process. You just need to install the piano uploader software first, and then follow the instructions in the Word doc. Remember to do the final step, which involves a factory restore upon rebooting. Then you'll need to reformulate all your presets.

Interesting to hear that you repainted. I was surprised that they didn't match the piano and organ more closely (visually) to start with.

Can't wait to give it a good workout with the band!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Thanks Vox for the updates. We've really heard very little about the Numa Piano so it's nice to hear back to very useful feedback and input. There's been several folks on here interested, but because of the seemingly lack of reviews, lack of info in general, I think the Numa Piano has remained relatively anonymous.


Zac, I usually wait for everyone else to try something before I leap in! This time, Tom F's posts were enough for me to give the Numa a whirl. In the lightweight league, there was little left for me to try before I threw in the towel, signed up at a gym, and bought one of the heavyweights.

The Numa organ and piano are real oddballs in a way. I'm surprised that they were launched at their current prices. To gain market traction with unknown and untried products you need to attract people to dip their toe in the water. Perhaps because the organ market these days is small and tight-knit, word got around about the Numa Organ - and it's very good (which helps) although I wish it had just a little more bite at the top end.

But the piano market is very crowded. Kawai seemingly gives you a lot more for the same money with their MP6, and Casio are vacuuming up the low end very efficiently. The Numa Piano specs are limited, and because of the lack of opportunity to try one, few are going to opt for an unknown product from a company with dubious heritage. The fact remains, though, that aside from the Casio, it's the lightest hammer action DP available - and it sounds different. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it covers the bases pretty well. And that auto velocity-curve function is a real boon, given the nature of the action.

If it behaves itself, it's going to make my gigging life significantly easier.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 09:37 PM

Yes, I'm surprised that they didn't color coordinate them as well (at least paint the bottom 1" and the front rail black like the organ). I suspect though that they will eventually be available with custom colors.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/29/11 11:06 PM

Latest update:
Sound went dead again when changing presets. Not good.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it could be to do with either keys being depressed when the change happens, or possibly the pedal. The bizarre thing is that all the function lights still work after this happens, but the sound just vanishes, and only a restart brings it back.

No response to the email I sent to Studiologic about this problem, yesterday.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/30/11 07:30 AM

You may want to consider trying it a 4th time. I did the upgrade last night and it came out good. The large file took 1 hr 15 minutes. The sounds came out very much as you described except the bright piano did come out a little brighter than the grand piano, and not at all like the original grand piano. It's really hard to tell when everything IS actually loaded (the loader software needs a lot of work).
Here is the email address of a person at Numa that may be able to help: carlo.maffei@fatar.com He was very helpful when I was having issues upgrading my Numa organ. You may also want to contact American Music & Sound. They are responsible for Numa service issues in North America:
1-800-431-2609
info@americanmusicandsound.com
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/30/11 10:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
You may want to consider trying it a 4th time. I did the upgrade last night and it came out good. The large file took 1 hr 15 minutes. The sounds came out very much as you described except the bright piano did come out a little brighter than the grand piano, and not at all like the original grand piano. It's really hard to tell when everything IS actually loaded (the loader software needs a lot of work).
Here is the email address of a person at Numa that may be able to help: carlo.maffei@fatar.com He was very helpful when I was having issues upgrading my Numa organ. You may also want to contact American Music & Sound. They are responsible for Numa service issues in North America:
1-800-431-2609
info@americanmusicandsound.com


Thanks for the info, Tom, and glad the update worked for you. Dave Ferris had given me a contact at American Music and Sound, so I emailed him last night. I'll send another to Carlo if I can't get any answers.

BTW, how do you like the revisions? I launched into the update straight away so only have a fleeting impression of the pre-update sounds.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/30/11 01:15 PM

I haven't had too much time to mess with it, but the new pianos definitely are brighter and richer than the originals. The EP is really nice. It sounds like the tines got moved a little closer to the pickups wink. The effectse are much more dramatic than they were. I'm going to have to get used to it again but the improvements are significant.
I hope your issues can be resolved quickly. Having the sounds go dead is not cool at all.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/30/11 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom F

I hope your issues can be resolved quickly. Having the sounds go dead is not cool at all.


Donovan at AM&S is looking into the problem for me, and will get hold of the original firmware to see if that solves the issue. In a way, I hope the problem is not with the software as, like you, I really like the updated sounds.

Both Donovan at American Music and Sound, and Hillary at the Midi Store are being very proactive and helpful. That makes me feel a lot more comfortable.

Tom, please let me know if you experience any weird behavior with the update.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/30/11 05:30 PM

Yes, I've found the people here (and in Italy) to be very responsive and helpful (once you get ahold of the right people), and have been happy to see updates become available quickly. Very encouraging. I've got some reviewing to do tonight and two rehearsals tomorrow, I'll let you know if anything wierd happens.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/08/11 06:33 AM

Since I last posted, I've had a chance to put the Numa through some pretty heavy use since I did the upgrade - two rehearsals and three gigs and so far no anomalies have popped up. The new "grand piano" really sounded great in the mix. I got some real nice compliments on the rig from two different sound guys.
Voxpop: Have you gotten any info from them regarding your issues?
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/08/11 11:52 AM

Slightly off topic, but I got a chance to play the Numa Nero running sounds from both Motif ES6/Motif Rack, and though I wasn't too fond of the sound, the action was superb! One of the best out there, and the best in a controller I've ever played. Quite a step up from the Studiologic 990 I had.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/08/11 01:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
Since I last posted, I've had a chance to put the Numa through some pretty heavy use since I did the upgrade - two rehearsals and three gigs and so far no anomalies have popped up. The new "grand piano" really sounded great in the mix. I got some real nice compliments on the rig from two different sound guys.
Voxpop: Have you gotten any info from them regarding your issues?

The last I heard was that they're going to swap it out for a new one, and am awaiting the necessary documentation.

One little thing to watch out for - be careful about putting anything on the surface of the fascia - the screen printing rubs off easily!

That's encouraging news with regard to the updated sounds, Tom.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/12/11 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops

The last I heard was that they're going to swap it out for a new one, and am awaiting the necessary documentation.


Well, I just packed up my Numa Piano and shipped it back. I'm really hoping that if I upgrade the new one (that should be with me by the end of the week) it won't start misbehaving like the previous one. I have my next gig on Friday, and am wondering whether to risk using the new Numa if it's here by then.

What a fun game to be in!
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/12/11 08:22 PM

VP, any update on that MP6?

James
x
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/12/11 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
VP, any update on that MP6?

James
x

Supposed to be with me Wednesday, although the last tracking info was from Kansas! I shall probably miss the delivery as I'm out on a job most of the day.

Then I'll have to evaluate how much damage there is before deciding when it's fit for use.

Interesting week!
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/16/11 08:24 AM

I know what you mean about being nervous about using it on a gig before you have a chance to really check it out. Since you had problems with yours, I'm even nervous about taking mine to gigs even though I haven't had any problems. Good luck!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/16/11 10:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
I know what you mean about being nervous about using it on a gig before you have a chance to really check it out. Since you had problems with yours, I'm even nervous about taking mine to gigs even though I haven't had any problems. Good luck!

Thanks, Tom.

The Numa's supposed to arrive today, but I shan't be here, so I may have to wait a little longer for it. I decided to use the venue's grand tonight rather than the Numa or any of my other boards.

It's good news that you're not having any trouble following the update. Sounds like my board may have been a bit wonky.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/17/11 06:44 PM

Just collected the replacement Numa Piano from FedEx and set it up. All is well so far! I played the non-updated pianos for a couple of minutes, and I've decided I'll probably work with the original sound-set for a while. The APs are not quite as huge or resonant as the updates, but I like their response and tone.

It would be great if Studiologic would post the original firmware so that you could go back to it if you find you prefer those sounds - or even better, do the same as Korg, and allow you to mix and match between the different packs.

Looking forward to gigging with it next week!

Tom, how are you liking the updates now you've had them installed for a little while?
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/17/11 10:45 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Just collected the replacement Numa Piano from FedEx and set it up. All is well so far!

Do the firmware update again! [/rubbernecking]
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/17/11 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Just collected the replacement Numa Piano from FedEx and set it up. All is well so far!

Do the firmware update again! [/rubbernecking]

You really are very naughty, dewster. wink
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/18/11 12:46 AM

You know, I really quite like this DP in its original state. I'm finding the pianos very expressive with a pleasant tone. They sound quite a bit more "open" and less compressed than one or two of the other DPs I have. The samples encourage me to keep playing. It's odd really, considering the lack of "modern" features such as resonance etc. Kudos to the Italians - this is the second Italian DP I've had (in this century!) and I've really liked them both.

The Rhodes is not quite as detailed-sounding in this version (I think Tom F mentioned this in an earlier post), and the clav may not be as good (although I've only played it for a few seconds), but I may stick with this firmware until the next update comes along.

I think I'm going to enjoy gigging with this little Numa - providing it proves to be reliable.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/18/11 09:52 AM

Glad to hear the new unit is treating your right so far voxpops!

There's always a danger when fixing firmware that something else will break. These real-time products are probably the touchiest that way.

I'm curious, does the original firmware have the note pan problems that the update had (the notes A1 through C#2 audibly panned to the right)?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/18/11 10:54 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
I'm curious, does the original firmware have the note pan problems that the update had (the notes A1 through C#2 audibly panned to the right)?


I will check that out, although while trying a few scales yesterday I didn't detect that. It seemed as if the panning jumps fractionally (left to right) at certain intervals, maybe it was every octave - something like that - rather than being a smooth gradation, but no reversed pans. When I've the time, I'll send you the piano 1 DPBSD file.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/18/11 07:53 PM

"Tom, how are you liking the updates now you've had them installed for a little while?"
I really like the new Grand Piano sound in the update, and like the Rhodes and clav a little better (but I liked the old ones also). I'm not that fond of the bright piano, and would maybe prefer the original one a little. I'm really hoping that in the future we'll be able to choose between different models like you can with the Numa Organ.
I hope your new one is stable. I really love gigging with this thing and would REALLY hate to have to go back to a heavier keyboard for gigging.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/18/11 10:11 PM

Yes, that updated grand piano has a lot of presence. I'm going to see how it goes with the first gig or two before I risk updating. I'm just a little nervous about attempting that again...

And thanks for all your helpful comments, Tom. At first I really thought you were working for Studiologic, as your posts and reviews were so positive. But now I get it! There's something unexpectedly pleasing about the sounds this board makes, and the action isn't bad at all for such a lightweight unit.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/19/11 11:16 PM

So I programmed a bunch of presets today: a glitch-free process, fortunately. I did notice however that the original firmware has a number of limitations that were removed in the update. In the original configuration the software won't memorize a fast rotor position in a preset - you have to switch the Leslie sim manually each time you select an organ preset. Similarly, it seems to switch to default tremolo (and maybe chorus and phaser) speeds rather than memorize the mod wheel position for a preset. The sustain pedal does not operate the Leslie sim. Effects settings are not memorized if you switch sounds - they must be reset each time.

Despite these rather basic programming oversights, I'm still enjoying the sounds and vibe of the Numa Piano in its "primal" state. When I start gigging I may find these small limitations irritating enough for me to try updating the sound pack.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 07:42 AM

Yes, I probably do sound like a Numa rep at times. LOL
It's just that it's really the only one out there in it's nitch. A weighted keyboard for pianos is a necessity for me, but my body is telling me it won't put up with any keyboards weighing more than 22 lbs (35-40 with case). The only other board out there in that weight class is the PX-3 and I just couldn't warm up to the sounds and the plastic case was really flimsy.
I really hope Numa can make their upgrade process more robust. I think the problem is that with each step you never really know when it's done, and the software will "allow" you to move on to the next step before it's really completed (just my theory). I know that the time that I was successful, I waited for 20 minutes between each step and let the big file go for about 2 hours.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 07:53 AM

Tom, voxpops, I'm curious - what is the chassis of the Numa constructed from?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 08:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
Yes, I probably do sound like a Numa rep at times. LOL
It's just that it's really the only one out there in it's nitch. A weighted keyboard for pianos is a necessity for me, but my body is telling me it won't put up with any keyboards weighing more than 22 lbs

I'm curious, would someone weight the Numa Piano and post what it actually weighs? Based on my conversation with voxpops, the manual says 25 lbs, but the spec sheet says 30 lbs.

Originally Posted By: Tom F
22 lbs (35-40 with case)

I think you might be able to get by with lighter cases. But that's assuming you're handling the gear yourself, transporting it in your car, etc. If you have a roadie cavalierly tossing it into the back of a van, or of course if you need to check it on flights, cases have to be more rugged.

Originally Posted By: Tom F
The only other board out there in that weight class is the PX-3

Also the Nord Electro 3HP, but it's only 73 keys. Probably has the best sounds, though.

Originally Posted By: Tom F
the PX-3 and I just couldn't warm up to the sounds and the plastic case was really flimsy.

You can't do anything about the case, but its strong MIDI controller functions make it easy to integrate other piano sounds... though it's more to carry, so that might bring you back to the weight problem. For my own gigging, I always want a second unweighted board anyway, for organ and such. If you're going to bring around a second lightweight board for those purposes, it's easy enough to use the PX3's weighted action to trigger the higher quality piano sound that may be in your other board (if it's, say, a 15 pound Yamaha MOX6 or a 21 pound Nord Stage 2).
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 11:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Tom, voxpops, I'm curious - what is the chassis of the Numa constructed from?

Cheers,
James
x

Seems to be an aluminum (I still balk at leaving out the second "i"!) base with a plastic composite panel and end-cheeks.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 11:58 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I'm curious, would someone weight the Numa Piano and post what it actually weighs? Based on my conversation with voxpops, the manual says 25 lbs, but the spec sheet says 30 lbs.

On my bathroom scales (that I'm too afraid to stand on these days) it weighs a fraction under 25lbs.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 12:17 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott

Originally Posted By: Tom F
The only other board out there in that weight class is the PX-3

Also the Nord Electro 3HP, but it's only 73 keys. Probably has the best sounds, though.

If the NE3 HP had 3 more keys, it would have been in contention for me as a lightweight board. 76 is my minimum requirement for piano. As for sounds, the NE3 completely smokes the Numa Piano in the organ department. The Numa is a bit like the Korg SV-1 in having a couple of "if-you-really-must-play-organ-on-this" sounds. Studiologic wants to sell the Numa Organ, of course.

When it comes to EPs, the Nord has much more to choose from. On the Numa you get one Rhodes and one Wurli (plus an FM piano). However, the Numa Rhodes is very good. I find it slightly more enjoyable to play than the Nord's, as it seems to have a bit more to dig into. The Nord's Wurli is better than the Numa's (in the original sound pack), but I think the Wurli is improved slightly in the Numa update - although the nod still goes to Nord, I think. The Nord's Clavinet is much more controllable, although the Numa's updated Clav sounds very good.

As for acoustics, despite the wonderful variety that Nord offers, I found myself preferring playing AP on the Numa. The pianos (in both soundpacks) are rich and expressive. There isn't the very distinctive character of the individual Nord samples, but given the lack of resonance etc. in the Numa, they are extremely well implemented. It would be interesting to put the HP alongside the Numa for comparison as I believe they both share the same action.

The other sounds (pad, strings, basses) are not very inspiring, and of course the NE3 has access to the vast Nord sample library, so again no contest there.

For me, when considering how the APs and EPs play, the Numa wins by a hair - but that is totally subjective, and I may be in a minority. However, the objective fact is that the Numa costs over $1k less than the NE3HP, and if you don't need full-on Hammond emulation and a bank of samples, but do need a lightweight 88-note board, the Numa should at least be on the list.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 12:59 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
If the NE3 HP had 3 more keys, it would have been in contention for me as a lightweight board. 76 is my minimum requirement for piano.

I definitely prefer 88, but if I don't have that, for piano, I don't really care about 73 vs. 76. Basically, I can live without the top octave of the piano, and I can live without the bottom 3 keys, so a 73-key C-to-C would be a perfectly acceptable "small" layout of choice. I guess the point is, to me, it's not so much a matter of 73 vs 76 as it is which 73 or 76 keys they are. I'd rather have a 73 C-to-C than the common 76 E-to-G. If the NE3-HP had 3 more keys on top, I really wouldn't care about having that 76 vs. their current 73. But at least Nord went down to F instead of E this time, that's a big improvement!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 01:06 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
If the NE3 HP had 3 more keys, it would have been in contention for me as a lightweight board. 76 is my minimum requirement for piano.

I definitely prefer 88, but if I don't have that, for piano, I don't really care about 73 vs. 76. Basically, I can live without the top octave of the piano, and I can live without the bottom 3 keys, so a 73-key C-to-C would be a perfectly acceptable "small" layout of choice. I guess the point is, to me, it's not so much a matter of 73 vs 76 as it is which 73 or 76 keys they are. I'd rather have a 73 C-to-C than the common 76 E-to-G. If the NE3-HP had 3 more keys on top, I really wouldn't care about having that 76 vs. their current 73. But at least Nord went down to F instead of E this time, that's a big improvement!

I agree that it's more to do with the choice of range. I need a minimum of G as the topmost key. That's where all, or nearly all, 76-key boards end.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 01:26 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
I agree that it's more to do with the choice of range. I need a minimum of G as the topmost key. That's where all, or nearly all, 76-key boards end.

The VAX77 (A to C) has a clever approach, you can hold down a foot pedal for when you want to shift up and get to the "missing" top octave. I'd still rather have 88, though!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I agree that it's more to do with the choice of range. I need a minimum of G as the topmost key. That's where all, or nearly all, 76-key boards end.

The VAX77 (A to C) has a clever approach, you can hold down a foot pedal for when you want to shift up and get to the "missing" top octave. I'd still rather have 88, though!

That's another accident waiting to happen on a live gig!
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I agree that it's more to do with the choice of range. I need a minimum of G as the topmost key. That's where all, or nearly all, 76-key boards end.

The VAX77 (A to C) has a clever approach, you can hold down a foot pedal for when you want to shift up and get to the "missing" top octave. I'd still rather have 88, though!

That's another accident waiting to happen on a live gig!

Yeah, all transposition features increase that risk. But what I thought was also clever about the way the VAX did it is that you can have it so that the octave is only shifted while you're holding the pedal down. Kind of like a sustain pedal. So you only depress it exactly while you want to hear the shifted notes and release it when you're done. So you don't have the accident-provoking unpredictability of not being sure what note/octave you will get before you play. That is, if you work that way, you can't leave it in the "wrong" mode.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I agree that it's more to do with the choice of range. I need a minimum of G as the topmost key. That's where all, or nearly all, 76-key boards end.

The VAX77 (A to C) has a clever approach, you can hold down a foot pedal for when you want to shift up and get to the "missing" top octave. I'd still rather have 88, though!

That's another accident waiting to happen on a live gig!

Yeah, all transposition features increase that risk. But what I thought was also clever about the way the VAX did it is that you can have it so that the octave is only shifted while you're holding the pedal down. Kind of like a sustain pedal. So you only depress it exactly while you want to hear the shifted notes and release it when you're done. So you don't have the accident-provoking unpredictability of not being sure what note/octave you will get before you play. That is, if you work that way, you can't leave it in the "wrong" mode.

Good point. Yes, I can see how the hold-and-release functionality avoids the potential for leaving it in the wrong mode (which I've certainly done before now). Does it only affect the top octave, or does it shift the whole keyboard?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Does it only affect the top octave, or does it shift the whole keyboard?

It shifts the whole keyboard, but it will not alter any notes that you're already holding down or that are already being sustained via the sustain pedal.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/20/11 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Does it only affect the top octave, or does it shift the whole keyboard?

It shifts the whole keyboard, but it will not alter any notes that you're already holding down or that are already being sustained via the sustain pedal.

That sounds pretty neat!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 09/30/11 09:00 AM

Just did my first all-Numa gig last night (piano and organ). Sound received a lot of compliments from both band and audience. One small niggle on the piano: AP volume seemed slightly lower than EP. But it sounded great, and was a really fun gig to play. The Studiologic gear performed impeccably. I no longer have anxiety about having made the switch from Nord for my lightweight rig.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/03/11 04:19 PM

Glad to read your report, vp. still considering if the Numa Piano should take the place of my RD300NX... Do you find it satisfactory to play slow, gentle piano passages with few 'airy' notes on your Numa?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/03/11 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
Do you find it satisfactory to play slow, gentle piano passages with few 'airy' notes on your Numa?

That was one of my concerns before the gig, as we play a number of original songs with some very gentle passages. The action takes a little getting used to when playing like that, but, with the help of the user velocity curve, I'm pleased to be able to report that the Numa worked fine on those more subtle measures. It is never going to be quite as responsive as my FP-7F, but I'm OK with that.

I haven't played the RD-300NX so cannot offer a direct comparison. What I would say is that, if you made the switch, I expect that you'd lose some things and gain others. Is there any way you can try the Numa before committing?
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/04/11 07:58 AM

No. I would have to purchase online, unfortunately. How is it (playing soft and expressive) compared to your MP6? I played the MP6 a couple of weeks ago and have a pretty clear impression of what that feels like.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/04/11 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
No. I would have to purchase online, unfortunately. How is it (playing soft and expressive) compared to your MP6? I played the MP6 a couple of weeks ago and have a pretty clear impression of what that feels like.

I think the Numa (with original firmware) is better than the MP6 (with original firmware) at playing soft, expressive passages. I had to tweak the MP6 quite a bit, and load the new firmware, to improve that aspect. They both benefit from activating the user velocity curve.

That said, the MP6 has a more sophisticated action that is easier to control, once you have everything else set right. But as you may have read, I'm not exactly blown away by the AP sample set on the MP6, although it has a nice tone.
Posted by: Strat

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/05/11 10:40 AM

I'm considering selling my Numa Nero because bills are starting to pile up. Not completely (no pun intended) sold on the idea, but am contemplating it.

If anybody's interested in acquiring one, feel free to send me a PM.
Posted by: PJHarmonic

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/10/11 06:21 AM

I'd like to thank you guys for running this thread. It's the most info I've been able to gauge on this instrument. Like Voxpop, I'm thinking of taking the plunge...blind. His ongoing thread helped me decide to take the journey. I've been lugging my Kurzweil K2500 around since I bought it in '97. But I'm finding myself on too many gigs where I have to lug it up stairs to 2nd floor gigs without elevators. It's a back breaker. 22 pounds sounds right up my alley.

I carry it because I play piano on some songs, organ on others, and I love the palette of sounds I've gathered in my 400 and 600 banks to add sounds on my gigs.

However, I find more and more that I just need to play piano and electric piano sounds on many gigs. My rig is too large for all this constant movement. I use the Kurzweil along with a Korg O1/W-fd, and I MIDI a Muse Research Receptor 2 to the Korg, and switch between them for which will be the active soundmaker with the Kurzweil. The KB-1 organ in the Kurzweil is kickass! I've rocked shows using that, and playing keyboard bass with the Korg for years. Last year I added the Receptor.

I run that setup through a Bose sound system with the tower and 2 subs. Great system. Much lighter than carrying the 2 JBLs w/15 & horn. Still, I want to get smaller now to do quicker in/out gigs.

I'm considering the Numa Piano and maybe a Hartke keyboard amp. But I'm still following your saga. I'm almost convinced to take that leap. Which store would you recommend ordering from?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/10/11 10:32 AM

PJHarmonic, I feel your pain - literally! It makes so much sense to try to reduce overall gigging weight, if you can. At just under 25lbs, the Numa Piano has competition from Casio (at half the price), and Nord (NE3HP) at nearly twice the price and ten pounds lighter. I much prefer the Numa's sounds to the Casio; the Nord is much more versatile and has a hugely better organ section, but only offers 73 keys. I find the Numa's middle-ground offering attractive.

The simple but dedicated MIDI controller section of the Numa may be useful if you want to drive the Receptor from that. The original sound pack and effects is good, but is a little clunky in terms of memory/operation. The downloadable update pack streamlines operation considerably but changes the sounds quite a bit. It's not possible to revert to the original firmware once updated, so it's a leap of faith to do the update.

I'm still running on the original firmware with my replacement board, but am toying with the notion of updating again soon, as I'd like the improved functionality, better output/balance, and the enhanced sounds for Clav, Rhodes and AP. However, you lose the 808000000 (IIRC) number 2 organ patch that's useful for backing chords, in favor of a fuller drawbar sound; and the somewhat smaller main grand piano sound, in favor of a much bolder, richer patch. It's a tricky decision to make. TomF has recently done the update - it would be good if you could weigh in, Tom, with your thoughts now you've been playing those sounds on gigs for a few weeks.

I purchased my unit from The Midi-Store in Sedona, AZ. It was an eBay transaction, but when I had problems with the original unit, the distributor's rep worked with the store to resolve the problem competely - I couldn't have wished for better service.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/13/11 05:13 PM

I really love the 'newer' versions of the AP, the Rhodes, and the clav available in the upgrade, but I still am not crazy about the new Bright Piano, so I never use it. I never use it for organ either because I hate triggering organ sounds with a weighted keyboard, and with only two organ sounds available, it's extremely limited anyway. So, I can't really recommend using it as an "all-in-one" keyboard, but I love using it in conjunction with the Numa Organ. They both sound great and are a joy to play.
Most of the gigs I play have a PA provided so normally I just use the 2 keyboards, a small mixer, a Radial DI to sum to mono and my QSC amp for a monitor. Set up and tear down is a breeze, and playing the gig is pure pleasure.
Posted by: PJHarmonic

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/13/11 06:38 PM

Thanks, guys. I played a Casio PX-3?? at a jam session a few nights ago. That thing was crap! Maybe it was just the one that I played, but there was hardly any ring to the notes about a octave above the center. The notes would "PING!" and drop out. I thought I was going crazy!

I am curious whether I could order the Numa Piano with the upgrades already in it. I don't want to do the online upgrade, and I'd rather have it when I get it. Otherwise, I'll be anguishing over the upgrade like VP. No offense, but I don't want to have to think about it. And I definitely don't want to have to consider boxing it up after receiving it because it did something to me, or I did something to it. Is there a store that I can do 1-on-1 business with who would be responsble?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/29/11 11:56 PM

OK, so having used the (replacement) Numa Piano with original firmware successfully for the past few weeks, I did the upgrade again. Exactly the same problem as before: after programming a patch, the sound disappeared, and only a restart would restore it. I now have an unstable Numa again!

The problem is obviously not hardware, but the new software has a serious bug. I'm surprised that TomF has not yet encountered the issue, unless he is not programming new patches. Tom, are you out there?

I'll do another factory restore and stop programming it to see if that will keep it usable for the time being. I've asked Donovan Stark at American Music and Sound to send me the original firmware. Last time I'd asked for that, but they wanted to replace the piano instead - I'm hoping that this time they'll be able to forward the files.

What a pain! If I manage to get the firmware restored, I shall not attempt the update again...
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/30/11 09:26 PM

Sorry Voxpops, I don't check this forum very often. I did finally have the sound disappear on me once about a week ago. A reboot took care of it. I'm going to be contacting AMS to let them know that I've experienced the same issue. I'm hoping that they will come up with a new update that will rectify the problem once and for all.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 10/31/11 10:44 AM

Sorry to hear that you've caught the bug, too, Tom. But at least it's more likely to get some attention now. I'm mad at myself for tempting fate when I had a perfectly good, working piano with the original firmware. Oh well...
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/06/11 01:36 PM

New firmware up at Studiologic-Music site!!!

Tom, I'm going ahead and installing this right now to see if the problem's cured. I'll report back.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/06/11 07:38 PM

OK, so I loaded the new firmware (v2.0), reinstalled the updated pianos - and the Numa software hung on me part way through installation - twice! Now, to be fair, I can't say for certain whether it was the piano, the computer or a combination of both. Anyway, after rebooting both laptop and piano, I started again. Third time lucky! The sounds installed correctly, and then I loaded the updated panel software (v1.19).

I've just programmed half a dozen or so patches, and so far no crashes or other weirdness. Great!

I'm still hoping Studiologic will make the original sounds available for download, so that one can choose which to keep - at the moment the upgrade is irrevocable. Better still, would be TomF's suggestion of having the ability to pick and choose from the total range, a la Nord.

Providing nothing odd happens over the next few days, I'll be comfortable gigging with the Numa again.
Posted by: GilJ

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/07/11 05:02 PM

Hi,
First of all I would like to thank you for all the valuable information I found in this thread about the Numa Piano (I didn't manage to find a lot of interesting information about this great keyboard on the web besides here!)

I finally decided to buy this keyboard a couple of weeks ago and already had a gig with it!

However, I did have a bad surprise with my Numa Piano when changing a sound and the Numa not playing any sound in the middle of my live set shocked
There was nothing I could do except to stop/restart the piano!

I really love this keyboard (keybed, sounds, direct access to all functions, weight, dedicated MIDI section etc.) however I was a little bit disappointed with the buggy firmware frown

I would also like to say that I updated to firmware v1.16 and found some other bugs comparing to the original firmware.
For example, when using changing presets on the internal sound module only -with the MIDI module set to off- Numa Piano still sends sends MIDI messages (seems to be "Program Change" messages)!
This can be quite painful if you are juggling with the Numa Piano as a Piano sound module and a midi controller (IE when changing internal sounds, you don't necessarily want the Numa Piano to change the sounds of the external module which is hooked to the Numa Piano's midi out!)

I'll try the latest update (Firmware v1.19 + DSP v2.0) to see if my Numa Piano gets better!

Cheers,
GilJ.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/07/11 07:47 PM

Hi GilJ,

Welcome to the Numa Club!

Yes, the MIDI program change issue is a pain. When I came across that, I think the workaround was to program other patches to send out messages on an unused MIDI channel. I haven't checked out MIDI with the new firmware yet.

Time will tell if the major bugs are now completely cleared up.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/07/11 08:39 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Time will tell if the major bugs are now completely cleared up.

A little voice inside my head says probably not.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/07/11 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Time will tell if the major bugs are now completely cleared up.

A little voice inside my head says probably not.


Oh, Dewster, you're always so full of good cheer! wink
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/07/11 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Oh, Dewster, you're always so full of good cheer! wink

Unfortunately just being realistic. Developers, for whatever reason, are completely incapable of improving their output beyond maybe 10% or so, and they often backslide just when you're counting on them the most. It usually takes a complete housecleaning to move significantly one way or the other.
Posted by: GilJ

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/08/11 05:09 AM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Hi GilJ,

Welcome to the Numa Club!

Yes, the MIDI program change issue is a pain. When I came across that, I think the workaround was to program other patches to send out messages on an unused MIDI channel. I haven't checked out MIDI with the new firmware yet.

Time will tell if the major bugs are now completely cleared up.

Thank you voxpops and thanks for the workaround! (though I am not sure it will work for me as I am using the Numa Piano's MIDI module to control a virtual instrument that doesn't take into account midi channels frown )
I'll send a bug request to Studiologic's support and see how they deal with their new customers!

By the way, anyone know what's new in the latest update?

Cheers,
GilJ.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/11/11 09:44 AM

That's good to hear voxpops. Mine hasn't done anything wierd since that one time,but I plan to do the update in December. Thanks for the update, and keep us posted.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/14/11 08:18 PM

Ok, I was going to wait 'till December to load the updates, but I went ahead and did it anyway and I'm really glad I did. I don't know what they did, but to me, all of the sounds are improved. I hadn't liked the "bright" piano since the original version, but this one is really nice. They may not have actually 'changed' any of the sounds (I don't know), but I suspect they tweaked the preamp and action algorythms.
The biggest problem I had with the upgrade was figuring out how to get the jzip to work.
I do wish they had upgraded the loader and the instructions, but I'm used to them now, so it's not a big deal.
This version seems very stable, and I haven't run into any strange behavior and I put it through a lot of paces today. So far so good.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/14/11 11:15 PM

Thanks for the report, Tom. When I loaded the new firmware, the original updated SoundPack 1 was still on the site, and so I used the big sound file from that. Now they've replaced it, although it's exactly the same size as the earlier version and still called Pack 1 - so I'm not sure if it's different or not. I hadn't noticed any obvious changes to the sounds - although I have had very little time to play with the NUMA recently. I may try updating again with this new file, to see if there's any difference.

My NUMA now appears to be stable, too, so I'm happy! It's such a good little gigging piano, and I enjoy playing it.
Posted by: GilJ

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 04:41 AM

I also did the last update (firmware v1.19 and DSP v2.0) a couple of days ago.
Didn't really notice any sound improvement, but it seems that there are less weirdness now (haven't had the need to restart the Numa Piano so far, after sound stopping playing or Numa freezing etc.!)

However, the bugs for the MIDI Module of the Numa Piano are still here (I think that there are even some new ones! shocked )
E.g. even if the MIDI Module is set to off, MIDI data are still being transmitted to the MIDI Out port: messages such as Pitch Bend, Sustain Pedal, Program Changes when changing internal presets... even the Midi Volume knob now transmits information which you generally don't want when the MIDI Module is... switched off!

Cheers,
GilJ.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 09:02 AM

Gil, I don't use any virtual instruments so I couldn't check that out, but I hooked up two hardware modules (Motif ES & Ketron), and the midi controller section worked fine.
Just a stab in the dark ... are you using the USB port to 'drive' the virtual instruments?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 10:24 AM

I reloaded the update using the new Soundpack 1 - no change; I think it's exactly the same as the previous Soundpack 1 update. Any changes are in the DSP firmware, I think. Unfortunately, I believe there is still some stereo-panning oddness (that Dewster noted in his DPBSD analysis) in the lower octaves.

As for the MIDI issues, I do find it irritating that changes are sent irrespective of the MIDI module's status. My Numa Organ has the same problem - and they class that as a high-definition controller! I have to use a MIDI Solutions programmable box (programmed to defeat these stray messages) as part of the chain.

I contacted Studiologic to try to get them to send me the original firmware and sounds, but to no avail: two email messages have gone unanswered. Previously I contacted them about the MIDI issues in the Numa Organ, and that, too, received no response. They really don't seem to want to provide a support system. A little surprisingly, I have also received no response from American Music and Sound since I contacted them about the freezing issue, post-update. At least the new firmware has resolved my immediate problems.

There is more work to be done with these Numa products, but they seem to be heading (slowly) in the right direction! However, unless they are prepared to provide support, they will not generate the goodwill and comfort-level necessary for the user base to expand.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 12:36 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
I contacted Studiologic to try to get them to send me the original firmware and sounds, but to no avail: two email messages have gone unanswered. Previously I contacted them about the MIDI issues in the Numa Organ, and that, too, received no response.

Studiologic's software department must be like one guy in his mom's basement or something. The Numa is just crying out to be an open-sourced DP platform - anyone feel like bricking theirs?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I contacted Studiologic to try to get them to send me the original firmware and sounds, but to no avail: two email messages have gone unanswered. Previously I contacted them about the MIDI issues in the Numa Organ, and that, too, received no response.

Studiologic's software department must be like one guy in his mom's basement or something. The Numa is just crying out to be an open-sourced DP platform - anyone feel like bricking theirs?

It's well-known that Italian men like to stay with their mothers as long as possible... wink

Actually, I was wondering if someone like you, Dewster, could download the firmware and analyze it, to see how it's made up. It's at this page on their website (bottom of the list).
Posted by: GilJ

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
Gil, I don't use any virtual instruments so I couldn't check that out, but I hooked up two hardware modules (Motif ES & Ketron), and the midi controller section worked fine.
Just a stab in the dark ... are you using the USB port to 'drive' the virtual instruments?


Hi Tom,
I am not using the USB port but the MIDI Out port.
If you use the keyboard only as a MIDI controller or only as a Digital Piano, everything seems to work fine now (so far, with the last updates!)
However, if you plan during a gig for example, to use the Numa sometimes as a MIDI controller and somtimes as a Digital Piano (playing the internal sounds) it can be really painful!

For example, if you are using the Numa Piano with its internal sounds and you need to change an internal preset, even if the Numa Piano's MIDI Module is set to Off, a program change message will also be sent to the MIDI Out port which might change the sound of the external MIDI module hooked to it...

Don't know if I was clear enough with my explanations ? confused
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Actually, I was wondering if someone like you, Dewster, could download the firmware and analyze it, to see how it's made up. It's at this page on their website (bottom of the list).

I'm not that kind of a coder (I do HDLs - digital design).

Pulling the SoundBank file into the HxD hex editor and looking at the Statistics, the histogram of byte values forms a perfect bathtub curve (with 00 and FF at the extremes). Since signals spend more time around zero I guess this indicates that there are raw sound samples contained in there.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/15/11 08:46 PM

Thanks for having a look, Dewster. That corresponds with what we've been noticing - the large differences in the APs between the original sounds and the update pack, pointing towards a completely revised sample set.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/18/11 11:49 AM

I was able to mess with mine for a couple of hours using it as a midi controller with several modules and switching back and forth between internal & external sounds (and changing internal sounds etc) and mine is not sending any information from the external section to the modules when internal programs are changed and the midi section is off. I have no idea why yours are doing that. I would definitely persue that with the supplier and the manufacturer 'till you get some answers.
Even though I'm not currently using the external section on gigs, that's one of the things that I really like about the Numa Piano is that the external section is laid out so well it can be changed on the fly without having to dive into a bunch of confusing menus or even dig out the manual. To not have that not work properly is not cool at all.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/18/11 01:38 PM

Tom, thanks for reporting back on your MIDI tests. I haven't run a test since upgrading to DSP 2.0, but will check mine out.

One strange anomaly yesterday. I'd been recording the piano using MIDI for anotherscott's new DP sound survey, and had left the piano on for evening band practice. A couple of times the piano played some notes, on its own, at full volume, while we were talking! Scared the pants off me!! I may have been resting my hands on the keys and/or my foot on the pedal, but I most definitely wasn't playing. Needless to say, I rebooted, made sure there was nothing plugged into USB/MIDI ports, and the problem went away.

I have had odd things happen with the NP88, amongst others, following using the instrument with a computer, so I'm not overly concerned. I'm still hoping that they'll make the original firmware and sounds available again. That seemed to be the most stable iteration, if you can live with the firmware and sound limitations. Despite the Sound Pack 1 improvements, there was a certain raw character in the original sounds that's been polished away in the update.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/18/11 06:10 PM

I've got gigs tonight and tomorrow night. These are the first gigs since the upgrade so I've got my fingers crossed regarding stability issues. If none arise, I've very happy with the unit. I had some glitches arise with both my Nord Stage 76 classic and my Stage Compact classic. Sometimes the extern sections would send program change information accurately, and sometimes not. Very frustrating. Other than that, I had good luck with them and with my C1 & E3. I still have the C1 and use it on my church gig.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/18/11 07:10 PM

It's been interesting to read your thoughts about the Numa chaps, especially given that you both have experience with Nord boards.

I'll certainly have to keep an eye on Numa instruments in the future, although for the time being, the Korg SV-2 is at the top of my wish-list.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/18/11 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I'll certainly have to keep an eye on Numa instruments in the future, although for the time being, the Korg SV-2 is at the top of my wish-list.


Mine too, although I think I'd have to dispose of a good portion of my current stable to justify that!
Posted by: GilJ

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/19/11 07:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom F
I was able to mess with mine for a couple of hours using it as a midi controller with several modules and switching back and forth between internal & external sounds (and changing internal sounds etc) and mine is not sending any information from the external section to the modules when internal programs are changed and the midi section is off. I have no idea why yours are doing that. I would definitely persue that with the supplier and the manufacturer 'till you get some answers.
Even though I'm not currently using the external section on gigs, that's one of the things that I really like about the Numa Piano is that the external section is laid out so well it can be changed on the fly without having to dive into a bunch of confusing menus or even dig out the manual. To not have that not work properly is not cool at all.

Tom, thanks for having taken the time to test the MIDI Module of the Numa Piano thumb
It's weird that our Numa's are not behaving the same way... Have you tried using a MIDI Monitor to check if there really aren't any data sent to the MIDI Out Port when the MIDI Module is turned off?

The mail I sent to Studiologic a couple of weeks ago has remained unanswered... Maybe they don't really check the email account which is on their site here ?
Has anyone here managed to have a reply from Studiologic's support please? Thanks.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/21/11 08:06 AM

Gil, No, I haven't checked using a midi monitor, so I really don't know for sure. Friday & Saturday nights the piano was very stable and sounded great. I didn't use any modules, but I did use it to play the "lower manual" parts of my Numa Organ, and there seemed to be one point where the setting on the lower manual changed slightly, but I don't know for sure. I only used it on one song that way and I may have just not had it set right.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/21/11 08:12 AM

Gil, I haven't recieved a response from the supplier either. I had gotten good response from the Numa people in Italy on an issue I had with my Numa organ last March. The person that I dealt with there was Carlo Maffei and he was great to work with. I don't know whether he has anything to do with the Numa piano or not, but he may know who you would need to talk to.

Mail to: carlo.maffei@fatar.com

Tel.: 0717506078 - ext. 228

FATAR srl
Zona Ind.Squartabue
62019 Recanati
Posted by: GilJ

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/22/11 04:50 PM

Thanks Tom!

I used a MIDI monitor and I can tell you that there are some wierd data being sent to the MIDI Out port of my Numa Piano when I change its internal presets, even if the MIDI Module set to OFF.

Otherwise, I'll try to write to Carlo Maffei and see if he is a bit more "talkative" than Studiologic's contact/support!

Cheers,
GilJ.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 11/24/11 09:43 AM

I hope you can get some response from someone. The Studiologic/Numa group REALLY needs to get a handle on their communications. Their products are very cool, but their customer support leaves a lot to be desired.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/07/11 02:55 PM

Can't get this Numa Piano out of my head! Could it be the one? (for now...)
Anyway, I was wondering if any of the owners could comment on the two organ sounds. Are they usable in a standard rock context? Is there a descent leslie effect? any other effects? Can you change the sound a lot with the onboard effects?
Thanks,
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 12:37 AM

Thomsurf, the organs are rudimentary, with less presence than a clonewheel, but usable. You get two sounds, one is the ubiquitous 888 with 3rd harmonic percussion, and the other (depending on whether you go with the original or the update pack) is either a backing patch or a fuller sound (neither with percussion). The Leslie sim is basic but sounds OK. The only other effect you can use with the rotary sim is reverb/delay, so, no, you can't really change the sound much.

I'd say that the sound is not very rocky, unless you can live with percussion on the main patch. You might get away with the second organ patch from the update, though. If organ is a major part of your performance, I don't think you'd be content with using the Numa Piano for that.

If you want an all-in-one board, you might be better off looking at the Kurzweil SP4 or Yamaha MOX.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 04:48 AM

Thanks Voxpops. I don't need organ much but I'm searching for a board to cover the piano parts and just one organ part in a Coldplay tribute band. 'Fix You' being the organ song. My Kurz SP4-7 could do the job, but the action is just too poor.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 06:25 AM

Surely the RD-300NX will do the job?

James
x
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 07:17 AM

Not really, James. The NX300 organs are amomng the worst I've ever come across.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 10:42 AM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
My Kurz SP4-7 could do the job, but the action is just too poor.


Oops, sorry Thomsurf, didn't see that you'd already got the SP4-7.

Although I'm not gigging with the SP4-7 at the moment, I have it as a second-tier board above the MP6 for rehearsals. I'm using it mainly for its KB3 organ sounds. Having loaded in the PC3 patches (with OS 2.0), and added an Evolution UC33e as a controller, I get full midi drawbar control, and the sound is very good. I use The Real ABC patch almost exclusively, as I think its the most authentic Hammond patch in the board. The action seems OK for organ. Have you thought about using the SP4-7 as a secondary board, above your Roland?

If you're just looking for an all-in-one solution, the FP-7F has a tonewheel generator, as does the MP6 (with the added benefit of being a few pounds lighter). The Numa with the updated sounds, and using the second organ patch, will give you something just about usable for that Coldplay song, although its a somewhat fuller drawbar registration, if memory serves.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 12:36 PM

The Real ABC is my favorite hammond program on the sp4 as well...Thanks for your advice, but If I have to pretend I'm Chris Martin from Coldplay, I only want one piano on stage as it will be sitting in a fake piano cabinet wink
I actually played an MP6 for an hour yesterday. Incredible action, but I couldn't really connect with the piano sound.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
The NX300 organs are amomng the worst I've ever come across.

I don't disbelieve you, and lots of people say this about the tonewheel organs in the RD-700GX & RD-700NX which I suppose are the same. Have you tried tweaking them? Because some say if you heavily tweak them you can get a much better sound.

Does anyone have a MIDI file of an organ performance, and an associated MP3 file of that performance using an organ voice they're particularly fond of? If so I'd like to try replicating it on our RD-700NX.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
I actually played an MP6 for an hour yesterday. Incredible action, but I couldn't really connect with the piano sound.

I know exactly what you mean. I keep trying (and I mean really trying) to fall in love with the MP6 as a piano, but the most I can muster is a mild flirtation. I was playing my FP-4 yesterday, as a prelude to taking it out on some jazz-oriented gigs, and was getting annoyed with the action. So I turned to the MP6 to give it a go instead, and just couldn't make it sound as good as the old FP-4! Of course the MP6's action is in another league compared to the Roland, but it just doesn't quite cut it sound-wise. I'm weighing up (literally!) whether to hump the FP-7F to the gigs instead, and enjoy great action and sound. Maybe I should book the chiropractor now... Or I could give the Numa a go, but I've been reserving that for use with my main band.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/08/11 07:00 PM

I didn't realize the FP7F is that much heavier than the MP6.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/10/11 06:53 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: thomsurf
The NX300 organs are amomng the worst I've ever come across.

I don't disbelieve you, and lots of people say this about the tonewheel organs in the RD-700GX & RD-700NX which I suppose are the same. Have you tried tweaking them? Because some say if you heavily tweak them you can get a much better sound.


Thanks for the suggestion. I just spend an hour trying to create a sound but it came out worse than the preset. Don't know if that says more about me or the rd300nx wink
Posted by: KHen

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/24/11 01:11 AM

Just checking in to see how the Numa piano has been treating you on your gigs? I'm really interested in the Numa line (The Nero looks interesting) as a midi controller for a Virtual piano.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/24/11 07:29 AM

The Numa Piano has been fine on gigs for me. The soundpack update has made levels more consistent across different sounds, which is helpful. I still wish there was some way to access the old sounds, but Studiologic seems deaf to that request.

There are still some kinks to be worked out. I wanted to attach a sound module, but there is no way to turn off program change messages (see earlier in the thread), even when not using the MIDI controller section. Also, very occasionally during rehearsals I have been startled by the piano playing a few notes on its own! I don't know if I was touching anything at the time, but somehow it must have plucked a MIDI message from the ether. This has never occurred during a gig.

The action is adequate but not great. It is a little difficult to control at lower velocities. I might give the velocity curve another tweak to see if I can get it better. However, I've been spoiled recently as I was using the MP6 for band practice - and that action is streets ahead of most other DP actions.

However, when I pack it in an old Privia gig bag and carry it in one hand, with my Numa organ in the other, I can forgive it its foibles! And it sounds great!
Posted by: KHen

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/25/11 02:25 AM

Glad you like it! Thanks for the update.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/29/11 09:06 AM

I recieved my Numa Piano yesterday. I have no logic reason for getting one other than a feeling that it's a very special DP. I don't even need an extra DP...But I guess it's ok to act from the heart once in a while.

Anyway, I was right! This is a special piano. The piano sounds are very good and have a long smooth decay that makes me relax when I play. Something I've been missing always in my DPs. I thought my RD300NX was as good as they get, but IMO the Numa Piano beats it.
I'm a pop/rock player so pedal stuff (other than sustain) doesn't mean that much to me, but this would be an even better dp if it had that. Especially the 'pedal noise' that I enjoy when playing my Roland...
I really thought the Numa Piano would be a gigging piano and that it would fall short when playing with headphones at home. Stoked that it's both! It sounds absolutely fantastic through my AKG 240s.

Thank you all for the many posts in this thread!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/29/11 10:17 AM

Welcome to Club White, Thomsurf! I'm glad that you're happy with the purchase - it's always nerve-wracking when you buy without the chance to try the instrument first.

I assume that you're running on the original sounds, and haven't updated yet. I still wish I could reload the original main piano as one of my sounds, as it's quite different from the updated one, and has a charm of its own.

Please do keep us posted as you get to know the Numa.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/30/11 04:29 AM

Thanks VP.
I assume that it's the original sounds I'm using. I don't think I will update these as the first preset is a killer piano except for the fact that the lower keys could be a bit louder, especially the second lowest 'g'. Anybody else experiencing this?
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/30/11 08:17 AM

Congrats on the new purchase! I'm still really digging mine and am looking forward to seeing how far they (designers & programmers) take this unit. I must admit that it was nerve wracking before they got the instability issues worked out wondering whether or not it would lock up on a gig, but I'm pretty sure (hopefully anyway) that those days are behind us.
I really enjoy playing both the Numa piano & organ and am thrilled that there are finally keyboards on the market that sound great and don't break your back or your wallet.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/05/12 06:28 AM

Thanks Tom...
I had my first rehearsal yesterday with the band. I have NEVER experienced a DP that sounded that good in the mix. We're talking the worst circumstances here: Crappy PA and a guitarist that's way too loud ; Hooray for the Numa. It's cuts through and 'sings' in a way that makes it a joy to play. I'm happy.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/07/12 06:55 PM

I just wish that Studiologic/Fatar would support their customers. I have written three emails to Studiologic, and one direct to carlo.maffei@fatar.com and received not one reply.

I need to be able to revert to the original soundset/firmware, and have not discovered any way to do this. I have another small glitch with the latest firmware whereby the piano will occasionally play random notes with indefinite sustain. The original firmware seemed to be pretty solid by comparison with later offerings.

I have also tried American Music and Sound, as well as the supplier, but to no avail.

I really like both my Numa Piano and Organ, and think the concept is great. Why will Studiologic not support their gear? It seems that this pathetic unwillingness to communicate with their customers will damage them in the long run.
Posted by: KHen

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/07/12 08:27 PM

That's a shame to hear voxpops! I'm still really interested in the Numa Nero or, as discussed in another thread, just getting the TP40 Wood action and buying a PNO Midi strip and something to house the keys in to make a portable controller. It's to bad they wont respond and stand by their product.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/07/12 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Why will Studiologic not support their gear?

This is one of my main concerns with Numa anything. Studiologic has a long history of buggy software and no support. So if it does what you need out of the box, great. But if you hit any glitches, don't expect any fixes or any help. I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy them, but it is an issue.
Posted by: bfb

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/07/12 09:46 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Why will Studiologic not support their gear?

This is one of my main concerns with Numa anything. Studiologic has a long history of buggy software and no support. So if it does what you need out of the box, great. But if you hit any glitches, don't expect any fixes or any help. I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy them, but it is an issue.


why not say people shouldn't buy them? customer service is a critical part of any business- we should NOT tolerate corporate arrogance or incompetence from those whose products we buy. That is plainly and simply the beauty of the free market, you vote with your wallet. if nobody buys Studiologic stuff- then somebody will wind up buying Studiologic the company and will fire the stiffs who create such an atmosphere.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/08/12 05:00 AM

Sounds like I should stick with the original firmware. Don't want to risk anything. I agree that non existing customer support is unacceptable and needs to be addressed, I guess some companies in some european countries tend to a different business 'culture' than what you Americans are used to.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/08/12 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
Sounds like I should stick with the original firmware. Don't want to risk anything. I agree that non existing customer support is unacceptable and needs to be addressed, I guess some companies in some european countries tend to a different business 'culture' than what you Americans are used to.

I think, at least for the time being, it would be sensible to stick with the original firmware. I really liked the main AP and EP in the original, although the output levels were slightly mismatched between APs and EPs.

As for customer support, I know I don't speak or write Italian, but I'm of the opinion that all customer emails deserve the courtesy of a reply.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/12/12 06:01 PM

Ok. I guess having a Numa Piano without flaws was too good to be true.. My numa piano is acting wierd! When I play a note and let it ring out it begins to shiver like someone is adjusting the tuning. Voxpops and co. Any advice? Btw I'm still running the original software.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/12/12 06:49 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
Ok. I guess having a Numa Piano without flaws was too good to be true.. My numa piano is acting wierd! When I play a note and let it ring out it begins to shiver like someone is adjusting the tuning. Voxpops and co. Any advice? Btw I'm still running the original software.

Gosh, that's a new one on me. Can you record and post a sample?

Suggestions:
1. Return the piano
2. Upgrade the sounds and exchange one software glitch for another (you never know, you might like the new one better wink )
3. Contact Studiologic and see if you can get one of their robo-zombies to actually communicate with you (good luck!)

Thomsurf, I'm sorry you're having the issue. As you can see from the above, there's not a whole lot that I can recommend, although it would be interesting to hear the problem. If you do manage to get anything done about it, please do let us know.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/12/12 07:39 PM

Thomsurf, one other thing occurs to me. Could you have inadvertently left one of the effects on, which is now affecting the piano?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/12/12 10:38 PM

I'm finally getting a chance to play around with a Numa Piano. I'm liking it more than I expected, though I'm not sure it would displace anything I have. Maybe someone here can answer some questions I have, though...

Question 1: It shows system version 109. Is that original firmware, or updated firmware?

Question 2: From the manual, it looks like you can create 50 presets that store:
-----
Sound(s)
Pedal-assigns
Layer
Effect(s) - Mix / Amount
Split
Effect assign(s)
Split/Layer-Balance
Free Wheel
Split point
Velocity curve
Octave Upper / Lower
Fixed Velocity value
-----

Conspicuously missing from the list... can you actually not save MIDI Program Change, Bank LSB, Bank MSB, Channel and Octave along with your preset? That must be a mistake, there would be almost no reason to provide the ability to enter that data if it couldn't be saved in a preset, right?
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/13/12 04:17 AM

Thanks for your concern, Voxpops.
I've tried factory reset and checked everything else I could possibly think off, including the effects. Nothing seems to solve this... I'm not set up at the moment to do any recording but will figure something out if I can't get rid of this bug.
I'm going to try and download the latest firmware this weekend which kind of bugs me since I like the original piano 1 patch so much. I've found this page but I'm unsure what to download. All three?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/13/12 12:31 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Question 1: It shows system version 109. Is that original firmware, or updated firmware?

I believe that's original firmware/sounds. I'm running 1.19 at the moment (which is the updated stuff).
Quote:

Question 2: From the manual, it looks like you can create 50 presets that store: ...
Conspicuously missing from the list... can you actually not save MIDI Program Change, Bank LSB, Bank MSB, Channel and Octave along with your preset? That must be a mistake, there would be almost no reason to provide the ability to enter that data if it couldn't be saved in a preset, right?

Yes it can be saved in a preset - at least I know that program change number and channel number can be saved. You can use that to work around the problem of the board changing the program number via MIDI every time you switch internal presets.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/13/12 12:37 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
I've found this page but I'm unsure what to download. All three?

Download all three, but you could try using just the data stored in the Sound Bank Pack. However, that introduced the "mute all" bug that was my initial problem with the update. Otherwise, replace the slightly earlier panel/DSP versions with the later ones that are contained in the separate folders. Be sure to follow the sequence set out in the software update info when using the uploader.

yes, it's a real bummer that they haven't at least allowed access to the original number 1 piano, as it has a unique quality that's very appealing.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/13/12 12:44 PM

To all those that are having software/firmware problems, and/or would like Studiologic to allow access to both original and updated sounds, please do email Studiologic:
info@studiologic-music.com
and
carlo.maffei@fatar.com

The more that they receive input, the more likely they will be to act eventually. Maybe.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/13/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
The more that they receive input, the more likely they will be to act eventually. Maybe.

My profound fear is that a company with super buggy firmware compounded with nonexistent customer support will release a highly portable, fantastic sounding, unlooped DP with terrific keys. smile
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/13/12 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: voxpops
The more that they receive input, the more likely they will be to act eventually. Maybe.

My profound fear is that a company with super buggy firmware compounded with nonexistent customer support will release a highly portable, fantastic sounding, unlooped DP with terrific keys. smile

The Studiologic/Fatar team clearly have some great ideas, and they come close to realizing fantastic products, but somehow the system seems broken. The web is littered with tales of woe when using their products. Time for a Japanese (or Swedish) company to buy them out. General Music (GEM - another Italian enterprise) was a similar story. Lets hope the newly revived Crumar brand doesn't suffer the same fate.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/14/12 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Yes it can be saved in a preset - at least I know that program change number and channel number can be saved.

That's good, and what I expected. But something that seems really dumb to me is that--unless I'm missing something--you can't use the 12 voice select buttons to choose presets. So if you want to go from your own custom patch #1 to custom patch #9, you have to hit/hold the "Patch Up" button until it scrolls form 1 to 9. That's not very live performance friendly! They should have had a mode where those voice buttons function as ten-key keypad, or where you could change the "bank" and those 12 buttons could be used for your sounds 1-12, 13-24, 25-36 and 37-48. Maybe something invoked by holding the on/off button on that panel, which now just does the useless function of starting the demo song playing. Without being able to quickly change to any other stored patch with just a button press or two, it's not nearly as functional as a MIDI controller as it should have been.

Anyway, I did get to spend some more time with it today. I found the action a little on the heavy/sluggish side for my taste. I'd say heavier than a Casio PX3, not as heavy as a Yamaha CP33/P155. The keys themselves have a nice texture. The piano sound is pretty nice, on the warm side, with a pretty natural decay after the initial attack, and decent dynamics. The Rhodes sound is excellent. The upright bass is fine but the "electric" bass is disappointing. The percussive organ is inauthentic with percussion on every key strike, but it's not bad sounding, and at least there's another patch without percussion too. Kind of nice to hear some "leakage" in it. The leslie effect doesn't duplicate the effect of the top and bottom rotors changing speed at different rates, but apart from that, it's not bad for what it is. I was disappointed to see that, with splits, there does not appear to be a way to pan the two sounds so that one comes out the left and the other comes out the right, something which I have found handy on other boards. The direct, obvious, simple kind of Nord-like button and knob arrangement for all functions is very nice.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/14/12 10:29 AM

anotherscott, the only help the up-down buttons give you is to jump in increments of ten, if you keep them depressed. That is still hit-and-miss, but better than nothing.

Yes, that number-1 piano sound is the one I'm longing to go back to. The upgraded one is not as warmly intimate.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/14/12 01:39 PM

Interesting that the character of the piano sound changed that much with the update. What about the EPs, did they change too? I really like both EPs. They have this odd HF artifact when you really lay into them, but if you just turn the treble down to about 9:00, I think that fixes them nicely.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/14/12 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Interesting that the character of the piano sound changed that much with the update. What about the EPs, did they change too? I really like both EPs. They have this odd HF artifact when you really lay into them, but if you just turn the treble down to about 9:00, I think that fixes them nicely.

The updated main piano is bigger, bolder, maybe mic'd more distantly (not sure). It seems to be a completely new sample.

The EPs did change, but not so notably. The new Rhodes has a more even dynamic response. I actually quite liked the spikiness of the old one - you could make individual notes stand out more easily. What I didn't like was that the EPs were at a significantly lower volume relative to the APs in the old sound set - that's changed for the better. The new Clav is much better - faster response, funkier. The effects have also improved. Organs are a little different, but I don't use much beyond pianos and clav on this board.

I agree about the high frequency issue on EPs, but I actually don't mind some impurity in my EP sound. I do, however, dial down the treble.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/15/12 04:37 PM

Today I did the firmware updates. It took a while to figure out since I couldn't get it to work on my Mac, but it worked out when I switched to a PC. I'm now running version 1.19 and the sounds are updated to the latest sound pack. Unfortunately it didn't solve my problem with the shivering notes I mentioned in an earlier post. I did a recording and uploaded it to Soundcloud. Please take a close listen and give a bit of feedback. It's driving me nuts!
Numa Piano Notes
Posted by: sh1

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/15/12 04:50 PM

thomsurf...yes I can hear really hear that, you describe it correctly - like it's being detuned ever so slightly, with harmonics coming in and out.

Sorry to go off-topic a moment but I have a question for you as a previous owner of a Roland 300NX. I have the FP4-F, which I enjoy because it's light enough to haul around and the piano sound is good enough to also work at home, playing classical stuff.

Do you think the Numa piano stands up to solo work ie Chopin, Mozart etc? Do you find the lack of speakers a pain? How does the action compare to the Ivory Feel-G of the Rolands shared by the 300NX and FP4-F?

Depending on this I might consider selling the FP4-F and pulling the trigger on the Numa, the saving is not insignificant.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/15/12 05:17 PM

I can definitely hear that, kind of a quivering or fluttering of the pitch.

It could be:
1. the samples got uploaded slightly jumbled,
2. an interrupt is repeatedly hitting the processor and consuming too much real-time,
3. an unstable crystal oscillator,
4. the pitch wheel is unstable,
5. a software bug of some type,
6. etc.

Have you tried playing with the pitch wheel to see if holding it at one extreme or the other fixes the fluttering? Or moving the mod wheel to a different position?
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/15/12 05:36 PM

Sounds good to me overall - sounds like the unisons are a bit out, which I like. ;^) The note at time 0:50 does sound a bit wonky though.

Some of what we're hearing there could be the crossfade between the attack and the looped portion. I can't really identify the loops themselves though - i.e - I'm having trouble picking the "period" of the loop, so I'm not 100% sure there is looping, just going by ear. However, I do hear an artifact that sounds like a crossfade.

Greg.
Posted by: moleskincrusher

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/15/12 06:36 PM

thomsurf, are you sure all of the effects were off when you recorded?

I am surprised to admit I'm not unnerved by the shivering I hear in your clip, I almost sorta like it. There is something natural and unprocessed about the Numa piano sound that makes one forgive imperfections (speaking only for myself of course).
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/15/12 11:48 PM

I can hear that "shiver", too, although I've never noticed it with my Numa through speakers and when playing with the band. I did a gig with mine on Friday and it's still packed away, but I'll be curious to see if I can detect the same issue. Could it be related to the way the file has been compressed - almost like the sound equivalent of jpeg artefacts?
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: sh1
thomsurf...yes I can hear really hear that, you describe it correctly - like it's being detuned ever so slightly, with harmonics coming in and out.

Sorry to go off-topic a moment but I have a question for you as a previous owner of a Roland 300NX. I have the FP4-F, which I enjoy because it's light enough to haul around and the piano sound is good enough to also work at home, playing classical stuff.

Do you think the Numa piano stands up to solo work ie Chopin, Mozart etc? Do you find the lack of speakers a pain? How does the action compare to the Ivory Feel-G of the Rolands shared by the 300NX and FP4-F?

Depending on this I might consider selling the FP4-F and pulling the trigger on the Numa, the saving is not insignificant.


Hi Sh1,
Glad it's not only me who can hear it.
Regarding your questions about Numa vs RD300NX. I'm no classical player but I do feel the Numa action is a bit tough to play real fast with. It did help to update the sounds though... I play with headphones only so the lack of speakers is of no concern to me (I'm sure they would sound terrible if it had any). I would rate the Roland action above the Numa. It's faster and easier to control. But the Numa sound is much more natural and organic IMO. That's more important to me.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 05:43 AM

Thanks guys for taking the time to listen.
The shivering varies so it might not be that present in all the notes recorded. Thanks for your suggestions Dewster and Sullivang. Don't really know what to do about it - I've contacted the Thomann store in Germany and asked for assistance. Maybe they can provide me with a contact at Studiologic that can help solve this issue. But I'm pretty sure I will have to ship it back.

@Moleskincrusher - All effects are off except for reverb on one half of the recording. To some degree I kind of follow you regarding the charm of imperfect notes, but it's definetly too much on some of the notes.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 05:47 AM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
I can hear that "shiver", too, although I've never noticed it with my Numa through speakers and when playing with the band. I did a gig with mine on Friday and it's still packed away, but I'll be curious to see if I can detect the same issue. Could it be related to the way the file has been compressed - almost like the sound equivalent of jpeg artefacts?


It would be interesting to see if your Numa Piano has the same issue, Voxpops. I'm pretty sure the shivering would be hard to detect when playing with a band (unless you have some really gentle solo passages)
The shivering is present when just playing with headphones so it's not the file itself.
Posted by: bfb

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 08:57 AM

i agree with moleskin crusher- put a tune up and let us hear what it sounds like...
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 10:24 AM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf

The shivering is present when just playing with headphones so it's not the file itself.

Sorry, thomsurf, I didn't make myself clear, I meant the compression within the Numa's soundfile, not the recording. I'll need to listen for it in my Numa. If it's present in mine it'll probably mean that it's a flaw in the way the sound is reproduced, and is therefore not fixable. My high frequency hearing is not acute anymore, and I never play it using headphones, which may account for me not noticing the problem up to now.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 10:29 AM

The two E4 notes at 00:45 and 00:50 are the worst, with a pitch drop happening during the crossfade from the attack sample to the loop (you can see this in the spectral phase view). There are other briefly audible artifacts going on that seem semi-random. I wonder if this is mainly a poor mismatch between attack and loop samples? I don't hear anything like this in the DPBSD MP3.

Thomsurf, can you still return this thing and get your money back? That's what I would do.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 03:47 PM

Thomsurf, the "shiver" is there on my Numa. It's not really noticeable at all through speakers but I could hear it through headphones, most obviously in the octave below middle-C. I have to say that it doesn't bother or worry me. As others have said, the overall effect of the piano sound is generally very organic, and any sampling/reproduction imperfections don't really spoil the sound for me.

Stretching is pretty obvious, however, and as Dewster discovered there are some strange panning shenanigans going on down at the bass end.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
The two E4 notes at 00:45 and 00:50 are the worst, with a pitch drop happening during the crossfade from the attack sample to the loop (you can see this in the spectral phase view).


Yes - that's what I heard. The crossfades do seem to occur unusually early in the sample, and that's why it's more noticable than it might be.

Greg.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/16/12 04:56 PM

Thanks for checking your Numa, Voxpops.
I'm still certain that mine has a bug, but strangely enough after giving the mod wheel a good work out (as suggested by Dewster) the shivering eased off. Immediately after I did a quick recording of a Pink Floyd tune to see if I could detect anything. I could probably continue my life playing the Numa, but it has got worried that it might act up at some time when I really not need it to! Anyway the shivering came back...
Think I'm gonna ship it back to Thomann. Haven't decided if I want my money back or a replacement Numa. Luckily they have a great return policy .
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/17/12 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
Thanks for checking your Numa, Voxpops.
I'm still certain that mine has a bug, but strangely enough after giving the mod wheel a good work out (as suggested by Dewster) the shivering eased off.

Evidently this issue plagues the numa organ as well: LINK.

And the numa controller has issues with the single wheel that sticks out the side: LINK.

I've read of other Fatar controllers have pitch wheel issues (spew out MIDI codes when not being touched). They evidently don't implement a dead-band. Personally I'm done their crap - it would take a herculean effort on their part to woo me back.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/18/12 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
To all those that are having software/firmware problems, and/or would like Studiologic to allow access to both original and updated sounds, please do email Studiologic:
info@studiologic-music.com
and
carlo.maffei@fatar.com

The more that they receive input, the more likely they will be to act eventually. Maybe.

If anyone here is going to NAMM, maybe someone could corner some Numa representative and see about getting some responsiveness on these issues.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/18/12 07:24 PM

Excellent idea, Scott.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/20/12 09:14 AM

I know that their American distributor, American Music and Sound, is exhibiting at NAMM. I don't know whether anyone actually from Studiologic itself will be there, but that would be the first place to look...
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/20/12 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
If anyone here is going to NAMM, maybe someone could corner some Numa representative and see about getting some responsiveness on these issues.

May I suggest a dark alley with a broken bottle in your hand.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 02/17/12 04:35 AM

Ok. I've tried to write those guys but no replies whatsoever...
The shivering continues so now the Thomann store is going to try and fix it. It's such a shame that the Studiologic company can't get their act together. I really don't get it? They've come up with this killer DP with the most pleasant piano sound I've ever come across, and then they neglect the after sales support.

I hope Thomann fixes mine or will send a new one. I love the sound in this instrument too much to let it go.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 02/17/12 10:42 AM

After my third (and rather sharp) email to Studiologic a couple of months ago, I eventually received a reply saying that "Support" would contact me. That was about 3 weeks ago. Despite my reminding them of their promise, I still have not heard from this elusive and perhaps imaginary support person. Shoddy in the extreme.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 02/20/12 05:51 AM

Wow! You got a reply from them?

I shipped mine back today. I sincerely hope that the shivering issue will be fixed. I posted a recording a while back but there were some of you who didn't really hear the shivering. Yesterday I recorded some notes again. Please take a look and listen:

YouTube video

I've been playing the Numa exclusively for the last 2 months and today I put up my Roland instead. The keys and overall feel of the instrument is certainly nicer, but boy do I miss the Numa piano sound (when it's not shivering)!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 02/25/12 02:08 PM

Thomsurf, that "shivering" is really bad! I hope your replacement doesn't suffer from any issues.

I sold my Numa Piano yesterday. Despite the original firmware being somewhat "beta," I just couldn't deal with the updated main piano sound, and wanted to return the piano to its original state. After months of trying to get help from Studiologic, I decided to quit when offered a sensible deal.

I still think there's something very special about the Numa Piano, but until Studiologic is prepared to deal with programming, quality, support and reversion issues, it's a risky proposition. I also think they're going to have to drop the price if they want to compete with the big boys.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/08/12 05:53 PM

At the risk of seeming at best profligate, and at worst demented, I have ordered a new Numa Piano. I sold my previous unit because I was tired of waiting for Studiologic to respond to my request for a copy of the original firmware - so that I could perform a reversion. After being without one for a week or so, I decided that, despite its many small issues, there is nothing else out there in the truly lightweight category that competes. So, in a bid to get one in its original (non-updated) state, I have placed an order through my local GC (the company has just started stocking it). I am keeping my fingers crossed that this one arrives in an unadulterated form - and that it has been thoroughly quality-checked.

The only other 25lb stage pianos out there with full hammer action, that I can recall, are the Casio PX-3 and the Nord Electro 3HP. The Casio doesn't inspire me, and the Nord is a few keys short for what I need (as well as being almost twice the price).

Having now bought, sold and re-bought both the Kawai MP6 and the Numa Piano, I am hoping that I can now settle down and accept the limitations as well as the benefits of these very different gigging instruments. I also hope that I didn't jump the gun, given that Musikmesse is just around the corner...
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/08/12 06:20 PM

LOL.

I did the same thing with the Casio PX-310... bought it, sold it when I got a PX3, then decided to go back and buy a PX-310 again. Though I sure wish I could combine the best of both of them! (And the Rhodes sound of yet another Casio model, while I'm at it.)

I really liked the sound, aesthetics, features, and general interface of the Numa Piano. If the action had had a lighter feel, and if I could have called up presets with the sound selection buttons instead of having to scroll, I would have kept it. I probably could have gotten around the latter with an add-on, but with the action not thrilling me, I was not sufficiently motivated. But you do seem to like heavier actions than I do.

The most capable lightweight competitor is probably the MOX8, which is really a lot more board in pretty much every way... but it's still noticeably heavier at 32.6 lbs, and noticeably deeper, which increases stage footprint and means that your second tier board may need to be farther away than you'd like. As you say, in all cases, you have to accept certain limitations, there's always a compromise somewhere...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/08/12 06:21 PM

Wow, congrats VP...I think!

James
x
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/08/12 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
The most capable lightweight competitor is probably the MOX8, which is really a lot more board in pretty much every way... but it's still noticeably heavier at 32.6 lbs, and noticeably deeper, which increases stage footprint and means that your second tier board may need to be farther away than you'd like. As you say, in all cases, you have to accept certain limitations, there's always a compromise somewhere...

The MOX8 is a really interesting board, and I shouldn't have written it off after just a few minutes on it in the store. But there is something very attractive about the sound of the Numa that is difficult to pinpoint, and it is so blessedly simple to operate! The action is certainly one of the compromises: I don't mind it being a little heavier than some, but it seems more agile than the Fatar in the Nord Piano.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/08/12 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Wow, congrats VP...I think!

James
x

Yes, I'm not sure, either, James! wink Oh well. If I wasn't such a picky pianist, I'd still be playing my old CP30, and be content. (Actually that was a really fun board - maybe I should fire up eBay...)
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/09/12 04:47 AM

I follow you 100% Voxpops... There's something very special about the Numa Piano that'll make you accept all the BS! I haven't got mine back from repair yet but hope to recieve it soon.
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/13/12 06:37 AM

I emailed Carlo last night about this and included a link to Thomsurf's clip and he got back to me within 10 hours. This was his response:
Hi,
ok I've understand,
If you open the instrument, on Pitch wheel you can find
a trimmer to adjust the middle position of bender.
if you put the midi out to PC and monitoring the middle value,
moving the trimmer (little pot) you can fix the stable value on 64.
tell me about.
Thank you
Carlo
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/13/12 08:02 AM

Thanks Tom F.
Hmmm. Usually companies don't tell their customers to open up instruments.
I emailed Mr. Carlo many weeks ago but never got an answer. I wish I had, then I could have fixed it myself. I have been without my Numa Piano for 3 weeks now!
Posted by: Tom F

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/13/12 08:13 AM

Thomsurf, you may want to call the people who have your piano and let them know what Carlo said. It may help to expedite the repair.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/13/12 08:19 AM

Good idea, Tom. I Just emailed them with the response from Carlo.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/15/12 05:31 PM

3rd time lucky?

Just got my new Numa (with the old software). Yes, I still like it, thank goodness! I'm becoming a dab hand at programming this thing. Got my presets stored in about 15 minutes, and am ready to gig. I'm not going to load the update pack, but I am curious as to whether you can upgrade the DSP and panel firmware without loading the new sounds.

Thomsurf, I hope you get yours back and fixed very soon.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/30/12 05:34 PM

Finally got mine back after a months wait. Man did I miss that piano sound. Didn't miss the action or anything else though. Well, the low weight is still nice. Anyway, they seemed to have fixed the shivering mod wheel. Hope I'll never need any Studiologic/Thomann assistance again wink
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/30/12 06:59 PM

Good to hear that, Thomsurf. Hope you have no further problems.

On a side note, how do you find the action on your RD-300NX? Months ago I decided not to upgrade my FP-4 to the FP-4F/RD-300NX, based on people's reports about the action being sluggish - but I've not had a chance to try one.

As for my continuing Numa saga, Studiologic reneged on their promise to send me the original software - but then I didn't expect them to keep their word.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/31/12 05:26 AM

Well, I have played my RD a lot during the last month and I'm beginning to appreciate the action more and more. It is a tiny bit 'wobly' or 'sluggish' compared to top of the line DPs, but definetely still a good action and way better than the Numa depending on your style of playing. The Numa is fine for hammering pop/rock chords (like what I'm doing in my Coldplay tribute band). Actually it's perfect for that, but it really falls short for classical stuff or peices with fast precise sequences. I find the Roland to be the complete opposite. Tough and harsh for rock stuff, but nice for the gentle stuff.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/31/12 12:13 PM

Thanks for the comparison, Thomsurf. I agree with you completely about the action in the Numa (Fatar TP100), which is very difficult to control when subtlety is required. The old FP4 is much better for dynamic control, even though it feels less realistic, and does not inspire confidence in the player due to its lightness. It's also a shame that Nord is so locked in to Fatar for their actions - as that, to me, is their Achilles heel.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/31/12 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
It's also a shame that Nord is so locked in to Fatar for their actions - as that, to me, is their Achilles heel.

There just isn't much to choose from. Roland, Kawai, Yamaha, Casio all make their own actions, but AFAIK, don't sell them to anyone else. I could see where it could be cost-prohibitive for a small company to manufacture their own design, so where else can they buy one? M-Audio uses some Chinese brand, but they don't feel as good as Fatars!

Some of this is also personal taste. I actually like the ones Nord uses in the Stage and Piano. The one in the E3HP, like the Numa Piano, has the advantage of allowing the model to be lightweight, but the action definitely does not feel as nice to me. There aren't a lot of actions available to put into something you want to bring out at 25 lbs, though.

I've actually liked a number of Fatar's unweighted boards too, though I don't like how tightly sprung the Nord variant is.
Posted by: Manolios

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/31/12 01:01 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
It's also a shame that Nord is so locked in to Fatar for their actions - as that, to me, is their Achilles heel.


+1
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/31/12 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
It's also a shame that Nord is so locked in to Fatar for their actions - as that, to me, is their Achilles heel.

There just isn't much to choose from. Roland, Kawai, Yamaha, Casio all make their own actions, but AFAIK, don't sell them to anyone else. I could see where it could be cost-prohibitive for a small company to manufacture their own design, so where else can they buy one? M-Audio uses some Chinese brand, but they don't feel as good as Fatars!

Yes, I understand the reasons, but that doesn't stop it being something to regret. I wonder at what point it becomes cost-effective to develop one's own action. Nord is a leading brand in the professional arena (even though volume of sales must be way below the big four), and it would be a big plus if they were able to create actions that were specifically designed to complement their products. It's only very recently that they've made serious attempts at producing a dedicated piano, and the one thing it lacks is a great action, IMO.

Quote:
Some of this is also personal taste. I actually like the ones Nord uses in the Stage and Piano. The one in the E3HP, like the Numa Piano, has the advantage of allowing the model to be lightweight, but the action definitely does not feel as nice to me. There aren't a lot of actions available to put into something you want to bring out at 25 lbs, though.

The TP40(?) in the NP and Stage feels nice to play. However, it really struggles with repetition. How much of that is down to the mechanics/sensors, and how much to software, I can't say, but it undermines the instrument's value as a pro board to a certain extent. Roland and Kawai actions are simply way better.

As to the weight factor, I completely agree. It's great to be able to have boards that come in around 25lbs with a weighted action. That was one of the reasons I re-purchased the Numa. It's also one of the reasons for keeping the FP4. Neither of those actions is ideal - and that's completely understandable - but I'm happy enough with the compromise.

Quote:
I've actually liked a number of Fatar's unweighted boards too, though I don't like how tightly sprung the Nord variant is.

I don't have an issue with the unweighted boards - although I preferred the NE2 action to NE3 (I think they were trying to compensate for actually having usable piano sounds in the NE3!). I just think that the game has moved on in the weighted arena, and Fatar is now lagging behind a little.
Posted by: ando

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 03/31/12 06:04 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
I just think that the game has moved on in the weighted arena, and Fatar is now lagging behind a little.


Fatar has always lagged behind - a long way behind. They only exist because of price and weight. I don't think much of them as a company. Lazy product development, dubious quality/longevity, poor after-sales communication/parts availability. Typical Italian company in other words...
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 07/17/12 06:05 PM

The high B note on my Numa Piano plays a C (and so does the high C)! So that's two identical notes on two different keys.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 07/17/12 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
The high B note on my Numa Piano plays a C (and so does the high C)! So that's two identical notes on two different keys.

Oh lord. The main reason I don't like this is because it dangerously lowers the bar for all other DP manufacturers ("Yeah, yeah, it's looped - but hey, at least it's not as bad as Fatar!").
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/01/12 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: thomsurf
The high B note on my Numa Piano plays a C (and so does the high C)! So that's two identical notes on two different keys.

Mine doesn't suffer this problem. I wonder if it's related to the soundpack upgrade (too buggy altogether, IMO) or if it's specific to your unit. I visit the Studiologic site from time to time to see if they've actually pulled their finger out and reworked the upgrade, but to no avail. I would not be surprised if they've quit on Numa Piano development, as too many people have found the software (and their support) lacking in various respects. If so it's a shame, as in different hands it could have been a real winner.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 08/01/12 05:12 PM

I guess it must be mine as I have upgraded... Anyway, I decided to let mine go. Believe it or not, but an Italian guy just picked it up. Hope he'll have more success in getting response from the company (in case he needs assistance:)
Posted by: Grazzy

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/02/12 04:40 PM

Hi , guys, does anybody know, why some sites shows that Numa Piano weight is about 11,5 kilos and some shows that's about 13 kilos. What, is going on?? What weight real is? Or is it mean that some models are different?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/02/12 10:46 PM

Grazzy, welcome to the forum.

The Numa Piano (without accessories) weighs in at around 25lbs or 11.5 kilos. The 13 kilos figure could refer to the total boxed weight, but that's just a guess.

(The only other related model is the Numa Compact which weighs around 14 lbs or 6.5 kilos.)

The Numa is a very easy digital piano to move around, similar in weight to the Casio PX range and the new Yamaha P-105. However, it's actually pretty sturdy, with a lot of metal in the construction.
Posted by: Grazzy

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 12/03/12 01:59 PM

Thanks, Voxpops, I read about Numa piano at this forum,and some players talking about Numa's good ap and ep sounds there,but some complain about keys , action and other things. I have my Yamaha P 120 is very good , but is 10yrs old and I looking for some new piano who's weight less than 18 kilos.It is worth to change Yamaha P120 to Numa piano overall ?
Posted by: keyboardologist

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/03/13 07:53 AM

Hello from Athens, Greece and happy new year with good health and wellbeing!
I've read this topic a few times in the past and another one today.
I have a Numa Nano (same action as Numa Piano) and although I know that the action isn't really great especially for those gentle passages, I'm pleased with the keyboard's physical weight. I'm using it more for practicing jazz piano the past year, I do 2-3 rehearsals per week (although in some studios I prefer to rent a midi controller), so carrying it isn't a pain, especially for me who I have some painful chronic diseases in one of my leg and in my waist and I don't have elevator at home (1st floor and a half floor steps), please Santa Claus, next year bring me an elevator!

I purchased my Numa Nano used from ebay Germany (480euro), and so I did with a Numa Piano (575euro) for a very close friend of mine (also started getting jazz piano lessons with the same teacher).
I'm trying to avoid using Nano's buttons/menu. I don't like it at all cause of the bulky touch keys. I configured one patch only, made some tweaks in the parameters, set the screen's touch sensitivity to zero so I can avoid pushing buttons easily with books/pencils/etc and I'm now focus on my rack gear knobs/buttons and params, along with the Behringer FCB1010 foot controller if needed for realtime editing in live situation.

The Numa Piano came with the old firmware, which was a disastrous. It crashed randomly, every about 1 to 2 hours. After a lot of pain, my friend managed to upgrade the firmware to the latest. We tried many times, all of them was unsuccessful. The last one, he did put out the audio out cable jack and finally the firmware upgrade done. We don't know if this was just lucky time or the audio jack did the problem, but I mention it in case I can help anyone.
Now he has a stable Numa Piano with the new patched, not much difference in sound.

Let's get down to the problems now:
The top B key at the is also sounding as top C only at one patch AP sound!
The common problem we both have with the Numas are some notes generating midi full (127) or zero velocity at random times, and some sustained notes which can be eliminated with a panic use.
If I can remenber well, I figured out that my Numa goes like this:
a. When holding down F#4, D5 and A5 keys, I get no midi from Bb5.
b. When holding down F4 and Bb5, I get no midi from A5.
c. When honding down F#4, B4, D5 and A5, for most of the times I get only full 127velocity midi note from Bb5, but not always!
I can test it again if someone want to confirm this in his Numa.

Overall I feel lucky I got the Numa in that price. Don't forget it also has aftertouch!
The touch is really good for pop/rock and hard attacks, but when you need some soft sounds with pp volume and emotional passages, there not going to sound good.
I may consider buying a good Yamaha or Kurzweil with 88 hammer action keys in the future, only for studying and recording at home, but I can't now, there's no money and no more space in my room. Santa forget the elevator... Get me a new ground floor house instead!

P.S. I'm sorry for my bad English.
Posted by: origen

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/03/13 09:54 PM

I got to play one tonight at Guitar Center, I was checking out acoustic guitars and poked around at the dp's before I left and saw one of these (used) and tinkered around with it, it took me all of 4 seconds to realize that this is truly an almost worthless instrument. As a piano/controller you really only need to do 2 things right and thats good action and good midi (forget the onboard sounds they're awful), well I dont know about the midi but the action on this is elementary at best, sure its made of aluminum but who cares when the action is the same as the williams brand $199 piano, the keys were light and bouncy, and had absolutely no quality or "feel" to them, this is the worst keyboard Ive put my hands on that costs above $500, I really would compare it to something that costs about $200-$400, but it was $899 used, what a heap! Sorry about being so negative, but I was debating ordering one a few months ago and was really caught off guard by how epically bad this was. Play before you buy!
Posted by: thomaswho

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 01/23/13 07:32 PM

Just to add my story: My Numa Piano got the dreaded "sys" in the display window, totally without reason. I did nothing but turn it of one day and on the next. Now it`s completely dead and the software from studiologic doesn`t work. Not really a piano for gigging, then. Can`t trust it.

The importer here in Norway has contacted studiologic for a fix, but I`m not holding my breath. They`ve been having this problem for over a year.

I also had a problem with a vmk-188 some years back... I`ll never buy a Studiologic product again...
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Studiologic Numa Piano - 06/06/13 01:55 PM

Interestingly, Studiologic has removed the software and firmware for the Numa Piano from their support pages. This could possibly mean one of two things: either the standard Numa Piano is about to be discontinued, or they're preparing new software/firmware to allow the pianos from the Concert to be installed (as hinted at earlier in the year). I would think the latter is more likely, as there is little reason to remove the files if the piano is out of production.

I no longer have the Numa, due mainly to the problematic action, so it won't affect me, but I would certainly be curious to check out any revised offering.

At the moment, it's difficult to give the Numa away (see recent eBay sales), and I suspect that as the Casio PX-5S gains traction, there will be even less incentive for players needing lightweight gear to go the Studiologic route - unless any new pianos are really stunning.