New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM

Posted by: Sketches

New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:18 AM

Hey,

So I have been sitting on my hands from ordering a new DP for a couple of months and went to finally order an MP10 on Monday, just realised NAMM is coming up though and I should probably wait to see what happens there. I saw the Nord release but to be honest it's not really what I was looking for. Do people think there are expected competitors to the MP10 on the horizon. I'm going to wait till next week now anyway but I am impatient and curious grin Anyone got a hunch?

Mark
Posted by: voxpops

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:45 AM

Any new DPs should be announced by tomorrow, all being well, at the start of the show.

As for the Nord, unless the specs say otherwise, it looks like a very modest rehash, with the addition of the sample library being the main new ingredient.

I too am trying to be patient. I would love Kawai to release an MP6II with UPHI and bigger sample sizes, but that ain't gonna happen. Korg still might wow us with an SV-2, and that would be very interesting to me. Kurzweil may or may not release the K3000 workstation. As for Roland and Yamaha, who knows?
Posted by: CyberGene

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:56 AM

I am not sure how many people here can provide anything but speculations smile It's James only who can say if Kawai are going to announce a new product but as you already know, he's not allowed to do so wink

What I feel is that Kawai are not going to replace MP10 this year, it would be probably 2013, however they may finally bring the ES6 successor.

I've read somewhere that Roland are expected to bring SuperNatural2 but to be honest I don't believe this is true. The current SN technology gives everything to people who are happy with the Roland sound signature as well as the PHA-III action, so except for some cosmetically refreshed HP-line instruments, I do not expect any major update to their SN-technology or keyboard-actions. V-Piano could get some varieties though. It's way too expensive currently and some people hated it, so I think they're already done with attracting new people. What they can do is to water down a little and offer it at a more affordable price, something between the 700NX and current V-Piano probably.

I strongly believe Yamaha are going to update CP1/5/50. Those are not bad instruments from a player's perspective, however in geek-terms they are lagging behind for being stretched, looped, lacking string resonance. Some people criticized them for not having graded keys. Judging by their previous history, I think they will keep the NW-stage action and will improve on the piano sound but barely so, probably decreasing the degree of stretching (but less than full 88 sampling), less loopoing, probably string-resonance added.

Korg have never appealed much to me so I don't care what they will do.
Posted by: Sketches

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 11:12 AM

Wild speculation was all I was after smile Some interesting opinions there. It would be nice if someone could put a great action in a cheap-ish midi controller (Numa Nero aside). I would snap that up
Posted by: dje31

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 11:14 AM

There was a rumor going around about Roland putting out their Nord NS2 killer, which put V-Piano, a B3-type module and Jupiter (?) synth guts into one box. I suppose all will be revealed in 24 hrs or so.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 11:24 AM

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
I strongly believe Yamaha are going to update CP1/5/50. Those are not bad instruments from a player's perspective, however in geek-terms they are lagging behind for being stretched, looped, lacking string resonance. Some people criticized them for not having graded keys.

I suspect that there will be some change to the CP5/50 before too long, but for an entirely different reason. The forums are full of people complaining about the obtuse interface, and in fact, some months ago, a salesman at a dealership told me that they hardly sold any of them because no one could figure out how to use them. If they're not selling up to usual Yamaha expectations, I would expect changes.

More recently, I saw a color Yamaha-supplied overlay placed over a CP5 demo unit control panel, designed to show people how to "easily" access the key sounds on the showroom floor... obviously an attempt to address this issue... but there I was trying to follow the color-coded 1-2-3-4 steps and couldn't get the desired results. The instructions on the overlay probably depend on the unit being in a certain state to begin with. Since that can never be predicted on a showroom floor, as you don't know what the previous player might have done, they probably should have made step one "turn the unit off and on again." But that doesn't sound so friendly, either... and I'm not even sure that would have completely addressed the situation.
Posted by: bfb

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: CyberGene
I am not sure how many people here can provide anything but speculations smile

I've read somewhere that Roland are expected to bring SuperNatural2 but to be honest I don't believe this is true. The current SN technology gives everything to people who are happy with the Roland sound signature as well as the PHA-III action, so except for some cosmetically refreshed HP-line instruments, I do not expect any major update to their SN-technology or keyboard-actions. V-Piano could get some varieties though. It's way too expensive currently and some people hated it, so I think they're already done with attracting new people. What they can do is to water down a little and offer it at a more affordable price, something between the 700NX and current V-Piano probably.



I too am curious if they make any movement on the v-piano- would be great if they at least add some new variations in a software update- if nothing else. At this point, its like an orphan drug. for certain users- its probably the best thing out there but that market will expand glacially at this price point and the buzz is long gone. its way too heavy to move around, so it can only be judged on its in-home or in-studio sound quality. if they refine that through an update, they could give it a breadth of life, if they leave it be, i dont think you'll see them being built much longer. People who think they will just put the v-piano into a multi faceted keyboard are probably years too early in that- i think the processing power needed to do this is just too much for anything other than a dedicated board, unless they completely re-write the algorithms. Personally, i think they probably realize they got it right with the SN sampled pianos, and got it wrong with the fully modeled vpiano...
Posted by: dewster

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
... they probably should have made step one "turn the unit off and on again." But that doesn't sound so friendly, either... and I'm not even sure that would have completely addressed the situation.

This is exactly how I deal with virtually every Yamaha keyboard / rackmount I've had the pleasure of interacting with. Try to do something simple like select a different voice, adjust the reverb, transpose, etc. and almost invariably the UI enters some cryptic state, necessitating a power cycle in order to preserve whatever remains of the user's sanity.

Though I will say that the P120 is pretty simple (if you avoid the Function mode). I'm not sure why a lot of their "toyish" offerings are way more complex than the P120 - I suppose it's the extra functionality. All the buttons and wheels festooning their stuff is just an invitation to performance disaster if you accidentally brush against them during play.
Posted by: ZoeCalgary

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 01:19 PM

I'm waiting for NAMM too. The MP10 and MP6 seem too new for any updates. I'm hoping that yamaha updates the P155 though, that Korg finally updates themSP250, and that Kawai brings something entirely new to the show (cause I like there DP's). I wonder what may be happening on the home style digitals as well. I wonder if Yamaha will update their YDP line at all to add more sounds and capabilities? One more day... I cant wait because then I am going shopping finally!! Front runners right now are P155 and MP6. Or maybe something completely different!!
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 01:26 PM

How are we going to find out what comes out at NAMM, by the way? Is someone going that can post a list of all the things that happen or do we need to wait for reporters from the media write it up?
Posted by: Sketches

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
How are we going to find out what comes out at NAMM, by the way? Is someone going that can post a list of all the things that happen or do we need to wait for reporters from the media write it up?


People could just drop info in this thread if they spot it I guess.

As a side note, Piano manufacturers are clearly better at keeping a secret than synth and guitar manufacturers. There is a 32 page thread full of new stuff over at the guitar forum I frequent. smile That or there is not much new.
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 01:36 PM

.
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 01:57 PM

Sounds good Dave. Will you do me a favor and play the NP2 and report back on how it compares with the NP1? I'm really interested to see if it's got more features than what's initially been reported.

I'm wondering if we'll see an updated CP1/5. They're definitely due at 3 years since initial launch. New samples inside it? How bout the next in the V-Piano series? Perhaps something along the lines of something to compete with the N1/N2. An SV2 would be welcome as would a new top of the line action to replace that awful RH3. Kawai and Roland seem good to go on their stage pianos.
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 02:06 PM

.
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 02:40 PM

I agree Dave. I'll just hold on to my NP1. Nord has done a wonderful job keeping it up to date with incorporating Long Release, not to mention the latest piano samples. Without anymore storage, and the same action, it makes more sense to just hang on to my Nords for a while. Although I still may sell the NE3. To be 100% honest, I'm relieved that the NP2 isn't any upgrade for strictly piano/EP playing. The NP2, so far as the spec sheet shows, offers no added benefits or features over the NP1 for guys like us. I would like to have the split and pad functionality, but part of the draw to the NP1 in the first place was its very straightforward approach to being a dedicated stage PIANO.
Posted by: mrcultureshock

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 02:44 PM

This is the site I'm using to keep up with all the news from NAMM 2012:

http://www.musicradar.com/event/namm
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Without anymore storage, and the same action, it makes more sense to just hang on to my Nords for a while.


However, we don't actually know that it's the same action, only making that assumption at this point. Right?
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: mrcultureshock
This is the site I'm using to keep up with all the news from NAMM 2012:

http://www.musicradar.com/event/namm



Meh! No keyboard tab, no synth tab.
Posted by: mrcultureshock

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: mrcultureshock
This is the site I'm using to keep up with all the news from NAMM 2012:

http://www.musicradar.com/event/namm



Meh! No keyboard tab, no synth tab.


Yeah true. At least it's full of pics and sorta easy to find. It'd be nice if the official NAMM site would have a announcement page by category.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 06:05 PM

http://www.yamaha.com/namm/
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 06:22 PM

Hmmm. I wonder when Yamaha will actually start the video feed and other things.

When are the new product announcements made? Is there a time when all the manufacterers give a talk and introduce the new products or do they just have their new instruments in their booths?

Ahh, so many questions. So little patience.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 06:23 PM

Regarding new Kawai DPs at NAMM 2012, I believe Kawai America will be exhibiting an updated console model and a new finish for an existing compact model.

There will be no new ES or MPs at NAMM this year.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: dewster

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Regarding new Kawai DPs at NAMM 2012, I believe Kawai America will be exhibiting an updated console model and a new finish for an existing compact model.

What, no new key grease? wink
Posted by: Piano World

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 06:44 PM

We received advance information about new Roland DPs including some nice hi-res picts, looking forward to trying the new instruments.
Including the new xxxxxxxx and the new xxxxxx.
Oops, almost forgot, can't say anything until Thursday.
Posted by: CyberGene

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 06:50 PM

Wow, new Nords, new Yamahas, new Rolands, it's gonna be hot this time smile
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Regarding new Kawai DPs at NAMM 2012, I believe Kawai America will be exhibiting an updated console model and a new finish for an existing compact model.

What, no new key grease? wink


If it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;p
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 07:03 PM

I'm calling it now, Roland is launching a drastically improved Fantom. Yamaha is launching an updated CP1/5. Can we bet money on this?? smile
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 07:17 PM

Yamaha: new OS for CP1/CP5 with additional/improved sounds.
Roland: new HP-400 series with improved SuperNatural/V-Piano tone generator.

My wager: 100 JPY.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 07:27 PM

James has been talking to a little birdie...

My wager: 100 French Francs.
Posted by: Lynsey

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 08:03 PM

Any chance we will see a new Yamaha P series? When was the last one released? The P-155 was released in 2009, correct?
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 08:43 PM

I would be a bit surprised if the P-155 was replaced so soon. I'd expect replacements for CP-33 and CP-300 sometime soon, though. Gettin' a little long in the tooth.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 08:48 PM

I'll tell you one piano ...The yamaha NU1 a upright Avant Grand ....
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 08:48 PM

The CP33 and CP300 have effectively been replaced to a degree by the CP50 and CP5. Probably won't see many more professional stage pianos with built in speakers like the CP300 since the trend is lighter, more compact. The P155 ought to be updated or replaced.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I'll tell you one piano ...The yamaha NU1 a upright Avant Grand ....


Ouch, that's going to hurt us. ;(
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 09:19 PM

Quote:
The CP33 and CP300 have effectively been replaced to a degree by the CP50 and CP5. Probably won't see many more professional stage pianos with built in speakers like the CP300 since the trend is lighter, more compact. The P155 ought to be updated or replaced.


Makes sense to me. No CP-300. Though I think they could replace the CP-33. Something lighter, simpler, cheaper than Cp-50.

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see a replacement for the P155. It just doesn't seem that old to me, for a digital piano.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I think they could replace the CP-33. Something lighter, simpler, cheaper than Cp-50.

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see a replacement for the P155. It just doesn't seem that old to me, for a digital piano.

I would like them to combine the two. A P155 that also had the MIDI controller functions of the CP33 would be a nice board. I do like the idea of a piano with speakers that also functions as a decent controller, and Yamaha hasn't done that since the ridiculously heavy CP300. If this theoretical P155/CP33 hybrid could use the NW-Stage action, it would be just about perfect for me... except it would probably still weigh too much!
Posted by: Lynsey

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns


Makes sense to me. No CP-300. Though I think they could replace the CP-33. Something lighter, simpler, cheaper than Cp-50.

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see a replacement for the P155. It just doesn't seem that old to me, for a digital piano.


I'm just going by personal preference. I played a P155 at a friends house and I fell in love with it. I never actually owned one, every time I start saving for one, I get into financial troubles and end up starting from scratch again. I'm still using a Casio WK-3800, which makes me a sad panda.

I'll get it eventually though :p (hopefully)
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I'll tell you one piano ...The yamaha NU1 a upright Avant Grand ....


Ouch, that's going to hurt us. ;(



Yeah its basically a N1 in a upright case with a full upright action ... its going to be cheaper then the N1.
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:34 PM

.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:36 PM

I see.

Going after the Kawai CS9 / Roland LX-10 (LX-15) then?

James
x
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:44 PM

.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I see.

Going after the Kawai CS9 / Roland LX-10 (LX-15) then?

James
x


With a real piano action ....
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 11:20 PM

doremi, nice!

Does it come with an inflatable Richard Clayderman doll?
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/18/12 11:32 PM

.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 12:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
doremi, nice!

Does it come with an inflatable Richard Clayderman doll?



Don't you mean Liberace ? Maybe its Clayderman and Liberace's love child board ...

Seriously could you get more tasteless ? Unfortunately the answer is yes if you look at some of Fazoli's abortions ...
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Piano World
We received advance information about new Roland DPs including some nice hi-res picts, looking forward to trying the new instruments.
Including the new xxxxxxxx and the new xxxxxx.
Oops, almost forgot, can't say anything until Thursday.




I didn't think Roland had any new DP's at NAMM the F120 and LX-15 they are presenting are not exactly a secret ....
Posted by: suniil

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 05:02 AM

Roland Presskit available now. Looks like there are some DPs

http://www.namm.org/files/presskits/WN12/RolandNAMM2012VirtualPressKit.pdf
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 05:13 AM

Good find sunill!

New HP-500 series... I was only 100 off. wink

James
x
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 05:18 AM

100 yen off ! wink
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 06:36 AM

.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 06:48 AM

LOL !!!! ....that's made my day ha
Posted by: CyberGene

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 07:16 AM

I guessed there will be no new Kawai pianos (although the lack of new ES is a little bit strange), I guessed the new Roland HP-series. Maybe time to raise my bet wink It's hours until we understand if there will be new Yamaha CP-series... My stake is 100 стотинки laugh
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 07:19 AM

Sorry .... your out 100 I'm afraid

http://www.yamaha.com/namm/w12/products.asp

The big news for me at least has been the Arturia MiniBrute which I've been excited about for some time.

Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 07:23 AM

Hmmm...an entry-level Arius in ebony polish?

Well, I expect more announcements will be made over the next few days.

James
x
Posted by: maurus

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 07:28 AM

Ah - who is going to donate me one of these 25 Yamaha-Boesendorfer-Klimts? cry
Posted by: CyberGene

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 07:44 AM

Seems I'm out 100 стотинки indeed. I am sure you'll all agree to donate them in the global cause for eradicating the beer thirst, starting with myself today laugh

Seems also that I'll stick to my current plan for replacing my CA63 with a CP5 smile
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: doremi


Hey, I didn't know darts legend Bobby George could play the piano!

Posted by: Sketches

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 08:11 AM

Cool, nothing to change my mind about buying an MP10 yet but I guess we'll see.
Posted by: dewster

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: suniil
Roland Presskit available now. Looks like there are some DPs

http://www.namm.org/files/presskits/WN12/RolandNAMM2012VirtualPressKit.pdf

Wow, that SN TD-30 drum module sounds sweet!! The RP301 looks interesting too.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 10:33 AM

Ok, so a RD500 series from Roland, a new Arius from Yamaha.

What's the new/updated console from Kawai? We should know by now, right?
Posted by: KarelG

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 10:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper

Yeah its basically a N1 in a upright case with a full upright action ... its going to be cheaper then the N1.


Does it makes sense to put an upright action into any digital? I've thought upright action is just compromise and everybody prefers grand piano action...
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 11:25 AM

Well any real piano action is better then any digital action so yes
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 11:31 AM

Meh, I guess I disagree with both of those statements. There are plenty of acoustic actions that are inferior to plenty of digital actions, all things considered. The distributions overlap in terms of quality.

I also don't think an upright action in a hybrid piano makes sense. How much cheaper would it really be than the N1 because of the action change? A little bit of horizontal space would be traded for some vertical space with the associated loss of key length, double escapement, and gravity-instead-of-springs action. Not a big win.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 11:33 AM

Originally Posted By: KarelG
Does it makes sense to put an upright action into any digital? I've thought upright action is just compromise and everybody prefers grand piano action...

I've played some wonderful upright actions. I've also played some not-so-wonderful grand actions.

Regardless, even in a DP, I imagine that there might be a size/shape advantage to the upright action if you're installing it in an upright-shaped enclosure.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 11:52 AM

If Yamaha wanted an instrument between the quality of the AvantGrand and their digitals, they could probably design a simple-ish action that is much improved over current digital actions without using an acoustic action.

Say, start with something that looks like RM3, but with keys that are as long as acoustic keys. Use two hammer sensors for velocity and an optical key sensor for dampers. You are done. If you want to take it to the next level, you can add a true escapement, though that adds a lot of complexity.

Probably not worth it, though. The savings to using such an action or an upright action instead of using a grand action can't be that big relative to the total cost of the instrument. Would you buy an upright-action AvantGrand if it was $500 or even $1000 less than the N1? I wouldn't.
Posted by: Madlock

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 12:30 PM

Is Kawai the only one of the big names who hasn't released a list of products to be shown at NAMM or have I missed it? All I really am looking forward to is seeing if they have something new to replace CA-63, so I can finally either buy it or start waiting for the updated model smile
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 12:36 PM

.
Posted by: torhu

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 12:54 PM

If the action is as good as on a Yamaha U1, I think it the action would be the least of your concerns.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 12:57 PM

With top DP actions now rivaling those of some acoustics, I see no need for installing a compromise action (which is exactly what an upright action is) in a DP.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:17 PM

It makes no sense to put an upright action on a DP: the reason why concert pianists won't play serious stuff on uprights is because their action is compromised and rapid ornaments and repeated notes etc are difficult/impossible to execute. DPs with actions similar (even if not identical) to those of acoustic grands (i.e. using gravity for key return, not springs) can repeat notes as quickly as on good grands - if they have the right (number of) sensors.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:31 PM

Not to mention that the sound will be a Yamaha grand sample...upright action makes no sense to me either.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:36 PM

I just noticed between another thread and google that the NU1 is not a wild prediction, it's a real thing. I'm not sure why it's not in the list of Yamaha announcements.

Just in case anyone was like me and thought we were being hypothetical here...

A hybrid piano with an upright action. That really is a first.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
It makes no sense to put an upright action on a DP: the reason why concert pianists won't play serious stuff on uprights is because their action is compromised and rapid ornaments and repeated notes etc are difficult/impossible to execute. DPs with actions similar (even if not identical) to those of acoustic grands (i.e. using gravity for key return, not springs) can repeat notes as quickly as on good grands - if they have the right (number of) sensors.

I think there are a lot of assumptions in there. Maybe concert pianists don't play on uprights because, well, they don't need to. Grands are always available, and they sound better. At any rate, I would guess that, for the vast majority of players, who are not concert pianists, the "lesser" action of an upright is not the limiting factor in their technique. (And as I mentioned, I have played some uprights that were much nicer to play than some grands!)

BTW, quick repetition isn't everything, and also doesn't necessarily require extra sensors (though retriggering a sound, pedal-up, without muting the previous strike, does require a third sensor). Simple two-sensor unweighted boards can permit extremely rapid repetition. (Unfortunately, they also tend to provide no decent control of dynamics!)
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
(Unfortunately, they also tend to provide no decent control of dynamics!)


Can you elaborate what you mean by this and explain why it should be so. Because the sensors are too far apart perhaps? Control of dynamics in a two-sensor action is not a problem I've noticed or heard people complain about.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:52 PM

He meant that the unweighted boards offer no control, not that they are two sensor.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:56 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
He meant that the unweighted boards offer no control, not that they are two sensor.

Although weighted two-sensor actions do tend to be less capable in the area of dynamic control during rapid repetition, for some reason that the technically-minded can doubtless explain. Three-sensor actions are definitely preferable if you need that level of control.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 01:59 PM

Oh yes, I agree purely in terms of rapid repetition. But in a general sense I don't think the third sensor offers any great advantage in control of dynamics.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 02:12 PM

Gotcha. That makes more sense.

Though my question/worry about two sensor actions is whether they are close enough together. The first sensor encountered has to lift the damper so it happens something like half way through the stroke. I would prefer it if velocity was sensed at two points close together near the bottom of the stroke so that the effects of accelleration would be negligible. In other words, so that the time between the two sensors is a good estimate of the velocity as it passes the last sensor.
Posted by: KarelG

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 02:46 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I just noticed between another thread and google that the NU1 is not a wild prediction, it's a real thing. I'm not sure why it's not in the list of Yamaha announcements.

Just in case anyone was like me and thought we were being hypothetical here...

A hybrid piano with an upright action. That really is a first.


Oh, so now, let's just see their sales figures, but it really looks like they are going after Kawai CS9 with this beast. It's really a pity that Kawai cannot come with a real competitor for AvantGrand's line... Would be good for customer to make their prices a little bit lower.
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 04:43 PM

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Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
What's the new/updated console from Kawai?


The ageing CE200 has been updated to the CE220, with PHI sound and 88-key sampling.

Hardly a game-changer, but a welcome upgrade none the less.
"Loved the key action, hated the sound" posts from folks who try this model in musical instrument chain stores should finally become a thing of the past.

Originally Posted By: Madlock
All I really am looking forward to is seeing if they have something new to replace CA-63, so I can finally either buy it or start waiting for the updated model smile


No new CAs, CNs, MPs - Kawai America's primary focus this year is the new Shigeru Kawai series.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 05:01 PM

@doremi: Kawai's acoustic grands are not direct competitors with Yamaha's AvantGrands, though. I'm sure that's what KarelG is referring to.

I'm sure we'd all love to see a millennium 3 action in a hybrid piano but at the moment acoustic grand with "anytime" is the only place you can get that.
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 06:05 PM

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Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 06:21 PM

I actually think you misunderstood the other people. No sane person would imply that Kawai doesn't have the ability to make something like the AvantGrand, particularly on the action side.

They just aren't doing it. Possibly there are issues engineering the whole package (mostly the digital side), but most likely it's just not profitable to do so.
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 06:43 PM

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Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 06:50 PM

Well, we'll see what they charge for it. From the pictures it looks like it will be larger and heavier than the N1 and N2, which I consider a downside.

You have a point that the difference between an upright and grand action doesn't come up much. It is an inferior action, though, and a bigger box. They will have to make it noticeably cheaper for people to be drawn to it over the N1, I would think. And an upright action isn't *that* much cheaper than a grand action, so it seems strange to me.

On the other hand, it has a great look about it. If they price it near that of the CS9, the latter could become a tough sell.

(This has gone on longer than is optimal already, but to be clear the "can't" in the post you quoted could refer to the profitability or perhaps willpower issue I mentioned, which makes total sense. Your follow-up, on the other hand, disambiguates it as if Kawai lacked the ability to manufacture a good hybrid, something that does not make sense. For that reason I think the misunderstanding was yours. Following it up with an invitation to play Kawai acoustics further supports the notion that you misunderstood the post you quoted, even though you were apparently addressing a completely different topic.)
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 07:07 PM

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Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 08:03 PM

We are talking about a piano that's several thousand dollars below the N1 in price basically price wise its the next step up from a Clavinova 480 and I don't agree that a Yamaha U upright action is inferior to ANY current digital action.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I don't agree that a Yamaha U upright action is inferior to ANY current digital action.


No one said that, actually, so you are disagreeing with thin air. Someone in this thread suggested that ALL acoustic actions are better than ALL digitals, which is quite different. If you agree with that, stop by my parents' house and play their spinet.

Several thousand dollars less than the N1 does get it into a range where it competes with normal digitals, so if that's right it will indeed be interesting. I didn't see a MSRP. Do you know what it is?
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 08:17 PM

I was told substantially less then the N1 .... and I'll restate this a bit more clearly.

ALL current acoustic actions from major manufacturers are superior to ALL current digital actions which leaves out your parents spinet.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 08:27 PM

I was told substantially less then the N1 .... and as for the action I'll restate this a bit more clearly.

ALL current acoustic actions from major manufacturers are superior to ALL current digital actions which leaves out your parents spinet.

I'm not saying I personally prefer upright actions to many DP actions (NW-Stage comes to mind) but for a real piano feel the U action is closer to my CF6 or C7 then anything on a DP.

As for size BTW the NU1 case is based on the S Clavinova so I'd imagine it would be around 100kgs
Posted by: ando

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 09:23 PM

I love the action on my U3. The ONLY thing I miss is the rapid repeat capability. You have to work a lot harder for those. Most DPs are still sub-optimal in the rapid repeats department too though.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 09:30 PM

Regarding repeats, presumably the NU1 would have something as good as or better than the tri-sensor GH3 to help with that. I.e - it would have a nice upright action, with the added benefit of double-escapement simulation, so it would in some way be better than a standard upright action.

Greg.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 09:33 PM

Yeah I'm curious about where they are going to put the sensors and how, if at all, they will implement double escapement-type playability.
Posted by: ando

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 10:50 PM

I'm not sure that it could be done authentically. There would be a disjoint between the hammer speed and motion, and the loudness of the strike. I have a silent system in my U3 and if I turn off the real strings and play the key with fast shallow repeats, it is clear that there is no capability for rapid, controllable repeats with shallow lift. That is because it lacks the physical escapement mechanism which allows the jack to give the hammer another push. On the upright, you have to release the key enough to reinitialise it and give new positive momentum to the hammer. I think they would be better off not even trying to do it on the upright action.

Here's an analogy:

Imagine playing tennis with a ball on an elastic rope: on and upright, you have to wait for the ball to come all the way back to you before you can hit it again. Swinging the racket again before that wouldn't give the ball any momentum. On a grand, it's like you can hit the ball the first time, then step in a few meters and hit it earlier and more often.

If you had a note every time you hit the tennis ball, it matches up fine on the grand version. On the upright version, you would be triggering a note every time you swing the racket, rather than every time you hit the ball. This mismatch would be unacceptable from a feel/control perspective. You need to feel that the hammer is producing the sound. The piano is a percussion instrument. To trigger notes by key position in spite of hammer movement, is counterintuitive.

So, my guess is, no rapid repetition on the NU1.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 11:09 PM

Ando,
Yes, that all makes perfect sense to me too. However, despite all that, I'll be amazed if they don't give it something equivalent to at tri-sensor action. It will be very interesting to see what they do.

Greg.
Posted by: ando

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/19/12 11:58 PM

Well, there have been a few upright actions that feature a double escapement mechanism. I think it would be quite a hurdle for Yamaha if they were planning on making a cheap transplant from the U series though. It needs a quite different mechanism in some ways. I do agree that it would certainly be something they are looking at trying to solve though.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/20/12 04:19 AM

They could just make one of their silent uprights minus soundboard, frame and strings - maybe that's basically what it is (in a slightly smaller, alternative case). Their silent technology is well developed and well regarded. Why would they need to do much more than that - other than fit an amp and speakers?
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/20/12 11:34 AM

Speaking of which, does anyone know if the silent uprights have sensors on hammers AND keys like the AvantGrand or whether they only have key sensors like you could get if you had your piano tech add a midi strip?
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/20/12 02:01 PM

Don't know - good question!
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/21/12 04:37 PM

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Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/21/12 04:54 PM

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Posted by: dewster

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/21/12 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
They could just make one of their silent uprights minus soundboard, frame and strings - maybe that's basically what it is (in a slightly smaller, alternative case). Their silent technology is well developed and well regarded. Why would they need to do much more than that - other than fit an amp and speakers?

It also needs a keyboard display that renders a bouncing ball above the keys, showing players which ones to press. smile
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/21/12 07:27 PM

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Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/21/12 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: doremi
There were similar designs, essentially in the form factor of a 4 foot grand with iron frame, strings, no soundboard, but with electromagnetic pickups per string/unison and amplification, and grand action. The most famous models were the CP70/80 from Yamaha. They went the way of the dodo with the advent of sample-based DPs.


Try getting one now, took me 12 months to find a decent one and they are now serious $$$$. The CP80 is the greatest piano Yamaha has ever built.
Posted by: doremi

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/21/12 09:58 PM

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Posted by: sullivang

Re: New Digital Pianos Predicted at NAMM - 01/21/12 10:48 PM

I think someone's been drinking Crown Royales again.