IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3

Posted by: hodgkins

IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 08:37 AM

I am most interested in the options of the two above mentioned being used on my n3 if at all? is it worth the trouble and all the bother with wires and all that goes with it conection wise or is the stand alone sound of the n3 possible sufficient and will the TRS still work it is my intention to put one of the programs through my internal speakers on the n3,
I am concered that ivoryii might be to hungry for my desktop vista dell computer not really up on tech any help would be appreciated rhanks tony20172
Posted by: steve1991

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 10:06 AM

ivory ii can beat the sound quality of a avantgrand?!
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 10:36 AM

BUT NOT PIANOTEQ DO YOU MEAN IS THE AVANT GRAND N3 BETTER THAN PIANOTEQ
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 11:15 AM

Are you not happy with the sound of the N3? I haven't tried one, but just imagining that the N3 is not up to snuff gives me pause ...

I don't have Ivory 2, but I do have Ivory 1.5 and it's far better than Pianoteq. I especially like the Ivory Bosendorfer. But I think Galaxy has the better Steinway, particularly the Galaxy Vintage D.

They're all much better sounding than Pianoteq.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 11:47 AM

Each of Ivory's pianos is far better--more realistic, more detailed, more beautiful--than the AvantGrand onboard sound. In terms of pleasing sound, both are well beyond PianoTeq.

It's a definitely hassle to run all the wires but if you really are interested in the very best sound, Ivory and its brethren Galaxy, Garritan, and apparently Imperfect Pianos very clearly dominate the AvantGrand's sound, as well as PianoTeq.

Of course, Ivory isn't designed and tuned specifically for the speaker arrangement in the N3, so that give the onboard sounds a bit of advantage when played through speakers.
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 05:31 PM

yes the avant grand n3 is a good sound but the grass always looks greener on the other side I have come to the conclusion that it will be syntholgy ivory 2 grand pianos for me but will have to check the spec on my computer to see if it can handle it ,and this i lock thing well why dont they give you a full price at the time of purchase and I still need to know if TRS will work on ivory I think dave horne mentioned something about it to me but I have misplaced the e mail
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 05:40 PM

Im not sure what you mean to say with regards the internal n3 speakers thats my intention to run the program through the n3 speakers and I would like to know if the TRS on the n3 would still work running on ivory 2 I must admit that its a bit upsetting to pay so much for the avant grand and then have to consider running other programs you would think that they could include it Im sure just for a couple of extra pounds
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 05:51 PM

The N3 is a four channel system for its built in sounds. (Through headphones it's two channel.)

If you connect the N3 to an external sound source via its line in, you'll only use two of the four channels.
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 06:09 PM

so I would only use two of the four channels well is that worth considering doing to get ivory 2 running through the n3, I am sure if I proceed on with this conection, I will be letting myself in for some overtime regards wires here wires there and as I mentioned prior TRS will it work in conjuntion with ivory, I have grown quiet accustomed to my vibrating fingers oh and pedals
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 06:23 PM

I thought TRS was something you could turn on or off, whether using speakers, headphones, or MIDI. Check your user's manual if you want to know how.
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 06:34 PM

Yes you can switch TRs on and off either headphones or internal speakers midi I dont know I am wanting to use it in conjunctionwith ivory hope its possible ????
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: hodgkins
and I would like to know if the TRS on the n3 would still work running on ivory 2


No it won't. Separate audio engines.
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 07:02 PM

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the noise gate (which you cannot defeat) ruins and external audio playing through the N3's audio system.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/05/12 08:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: hodgkins
and I would like to know if the TRS on the n3 would still work running on ivory 2


No it won't. Separate audio engines.


I assume it's like other pianos, though, where you can leave the audio engine running on but turn off the speakers. Then connect your headphone or whatever to your audio interface to hear the sweet Ivory.

It's hard for me to believe there's no way to experience TRS while using Ivory for your sounds. MelodialworksMusic, can you elaborate on the situation?
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/06/12 07:18 AM

so thats another problem the sound gate plus no TRS what I need to here is some avant grand n3 person who is currently running ivory 2 with no problems ??????????
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/06/12 07:33 AM

The Tactile Response System (TRS) works even when the volume is turned completely down. Use the N3 as your midi controller and run your software piano either through another sound system or through headphones.

I really don't look at this as a fault of the N3. It is not being marketed as a midi controller (though, of course, it has midi connectors).
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/06/12 07:41 AM

I have a N1 and have tested some with Ivory II. Strangely I couldn't yet find the issue with the noise gate. Maybe they got rid of it in later revisions, or the N1 didn't have it to begin with? Can't be sure.

So far I think it's not worth it to run Ivory II through the internal speakers. The sound just isn't good at all, sounds pretty hollow and undefined. The N3 has better speakers, so maybe it would sound more satisfying. The "spacial acoustic" bit will be gone though.

Could always get separate speakers for Ivory, put the N3 volume to 0 and you'll have the best of both worlds including TRS.
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/06/12 08:47 AM

thanks for that info i think at the present moment that I am going to carry on practising piano pieces and leave this elctronic carry on behind me at least for some time it is getting in the way of what I need to do regards more playing and just eat the grass in my field so to speak and not wonder about other grassy fields thanks very much for all your concern
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/06/12 09:39 AM

Yeah, don't get me wrong though. The Ivory II sound is vastly superior, it's just that the N1 speakers aren't delivering it well. It's amazing with headphones though.

Maybe I'll try some monitors soon. I still have a pair of Genelecs that I'm not using currently. It's just that the N1 is placed in my living room and looking rather pretty. I'm not sure I really want to put some monitors on top and lose that minimalistic look. Let alone the mess with the cables.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/06/12 10:45 AM

From what you're saying, it seems that the N3 is not such a good choice?
Yes, it has a true piano action, and the TRS, and very nice cabinetry.
But if the sound is not so good, then the N3 seems awfully expensive for what you're getting.
Posted by: Macy

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/06/12 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the noise gate (which you cannot defeat) ruins and external audio playing through the N3's audio system.


Noise gate??? What's that?
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 11:48 AM

like I mentioned on here prior , The N3 sounds yes pretty good but I would like to here this ivory 2 through it but reading some of the problems people are having regards noise gate and some have had latency problems but after saying all this I am pretty happy with the avant grand n3
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 01:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Macy
Noise gate??? What's that?


The AvantGrand mutes the line-in if the incoming volume is below a certain threshold. In principle this could be designed to mute out random incoming noise (from radio waves, etc).

When playing the fat part of your notes on the software piano it's not an issue, but when you let them decay all the way, it makes the note flutter in and out before it dies out completely.
Posted by: ando

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Macy
Noise gate??? What's that?


The AvantGrand mutes the line-in if the incoming volume is below a certain threshold. In principle this could be designed to mute out random incoming noise (from radio waves, etc).

When playing the fat part of your notes on the software piano it's not an issue, but when you let them decay all the way, it makes the note flutter in and out before it dies out completely.


It should be a federal law that noise gates come with an off switch...
Posted by: Macy

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 03:50 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: Macy
Noise gate??? What's that?


The AvantGrand mutes the line-in if the incoming volume is below a certain threshold. In principle this could be designed to mute out random incoming noise (from radio waves, etc).


Thanks for the reply, I hadn't run across that before. I must say, as an electronic engineer that seems like a strange function to put on an instrument like this. A line input is a high level input, not a microphone input, and you certainly don't have to mute an input to remove RF noise. There shouldn't be any more of a noise problem on that input than an analog input of a hi-fi system.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Macy
There shouldn't be any more of a noise problem on that input than an analog input of a hi-fi system.


True, but hi-fi systems typically only enable one input at a time - the input that is being used.

I proposed a couple of ideas to minimise the impact of the noise gate a while ago. (mix in a background tone that is perhaps inaudible - a very high or low frequency sine wave, and, use the highest possible input signal level that the N3 can tolerate without clipping, to maximise the usable dynamic range) I don't have access to an N3 and haven't tested either idea.

Greg.
Posted by: Macy

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 05:08 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang


True, but hi-fi systems typically only enable one input at a time - the input that is being used.

It's still a dumb way to prevent a problem. If one is worried about noise on the "unused" aux input then make it a switchable input rather than gating it based on input level. But I still think it should be the responsibility of the source to be noise-free when not being used.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 05:20 PM

Agreed. If it could possibly cause a problem, make it optional/switchable.

This makes me wonder ... Why did Yamaha put it in there? I don't think my Clavinova has a noise gate. I don't think any of my equipment has it.

Did Yamaha discover a problem with their AG design that warranted a noise gate?

And, did they really even need to give the line input so much consideration? After all, this is a pure piano, with no ensemble/accompaniment features and no non-piano features. So I wouldn't expect many users to plug in a guitar for play-along. Indeed, I'm guessing that most owners won't plug anything into the line input.

I'm puzzled.
Posted by: Macy

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Agreed. If it could possibly cause a problem, make it optional/switchable.

This makes me wonder ... Why did Yamaha put it in there? I don't think my Clavinova has a noise gate. I don't think any of my equipment has it.

Did Yamaha discover a problem with their AG design that warranted a noise gate?

And, did they really even need to give the line input so much consideration? After all, this is a pure piano, with no ensemble/accompaniment features and no non-piano features. So I wouldn't expect many users to plug in a guitar for play-along. Indeed, I'm guessing that most owners won't plug anything into the line input.

I'm puzzled.

Yeah, me too. My Clavinova (CVP-409GP) doesn't have it. I would have sent it back as a defect if it did. (More likely I would have found the "noise gate" function in the schematic and disabled it.) I use my CVP 95% of the time as a MIDI keyboard to play virtual pianos.

I see why Yamaha would want aux inputs for their AGs. I imagine a number of people want to connect a MIDI sound module to add accompanying instruments to their piano playing. I have a friend that added MIDI output to his acoustical Steinway to drive a sound module.

What is so puzzling is that Yamaha obviously knows the "noise gate" is a problem. I found this today in the N1 manual under Troubleshooting.

Problem - Sound input to the AUX IN jacks is interrupted.

Cause/Solution - The output volume of the external device connected to this instrument is too low. Increase the output volume of the external device.

This pretty obviously refers to the "noise gate" issue.

Extremely odd, since the function seems so unnecessary in the first place. It's like something copied from a mixer function or PA amp with summed inputs using stage equipment where you might have long cables strung out picking up noise.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/07/12 08:11 PM

Good find Macy! They should specify the maximum allowable input level. If it can take "Redbook" levels (2V RMS), not all audio interfaces can go that high, so amping it up will help. Both my laptop and my semi-professional USB audio interface can only reach a bit more than half that level. Maybe it can accept even higher levels.

I think there's a user here that is not having this problem - I can't remember who it was. I think it was either the N1 or N2 that he was using. Maybe that user is using equipment that has a good strong output level.

Greg.
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang

I think there's a user here that is not having this problem - I can't remember who it was. I think it was either the N1 or N2 that he was using. Maybe that user is using equipment that has a good strong output level.

Greg.


It's true, I couldn't yet replicate the issue on my N1. I don't know about output levels. My signal currently goes from my home studio mixer headphone output through long messy cables into the living room and into a small portable headphone amp (basically just to have easier volume adjustment on the N1 side) and then into the N1 inputs. Then to the N1 I connect my HD650 headphone.

I can try this evening to use the amp after the N1 output, which I guess would make more sense anyway.

If I let a note decay forever though, the signal will get quieter and quieter until it eventually reaches zero, no matter how loud the input signal was to begin with. That's what I would think at least. So the noise gate should kick in anyway.
Posted by: hodgkins

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 06:21 AM

I read recently on this forum kipesce I think is name is he was very up on this subject .would this noise gate problem effect most piano software such as galaxy etc
Posted by: sullivang

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 06:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Gigantoad

If I let a note decay forever though, the signal will get quieter and quieter until it eventually reaches zero, no matter how loud the input signal was to begin with. That's what I would think at least. So the noise gate should kick in anyway.


Agreed, but maybe the noise gate will kick in at such a low level that you don't notice it.

When you connect your headphone amp to the output of the N1, you can then experiment with different levels going IN to the N1. I.e, if you don't hear the problem, just reduce the volume of the mixer output, and then increase the volume on your headphone amp that is connected to the output of the N1, so that you are always listening at a normal level.

I assume it's fiddly to adjust the headphone volume on the N1, and that's why you want an amp with an easy to use volume control - yes?

Greg.
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
[quote=Gigantoad]
I assume it's fiddly to adjust the headphone volume on the N1, and that's why you want an amp with an easy to use volume control - yes?

Greg.


No, it's just that the mixer is in another room and I can't easily change the volume on that without physically moving my lazy ass. laugh
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
It's true, I couldn't yet replicate the issue on my N1. I don't know about output levels. My signal currently goes from my home studio mixer headphone output through long messy cables into the living room and into a small portable headphone amp (basically just to have easier volume adjustment on the N1 side) and then into the N1 inputs. Then to the N1 I connect my HD650 headphone.


How about if you unplug the headphones and use the onboard speakers?
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 01:02 PM

Ok I figured out what was going on. There is indeed a noise gate. I hadn't heard it because the signal I put into it was fairly loud due to the headphone amp, but mainly it was because there is a bit of noise coming from the long messy cables (cheap extender cables, adapters and whatnot) that I hadn't noticed before. I think the volume plus the noise kept the noise gate open.

It's only a temporary setup for toying around a bit, but its amateurish character has apparently defeated the noise gate. Basically if the noise is loud enough, the noise gate never kicks in at all. No suprise I guess.

The noise isn't loud enough to really disturb me. I could certainly live with it. My ears seem to be tolerant in that regard. smile
Posted by: Macy

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 02:41 PM

This seems crazy. Can anyone think of a reason for this "feature". This just seems like a defective design to me in a product of this nature. I could rationalize something like this with a microphone input, but not a high level line input.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 05:00 PM

Yes. To me it seems to be a defect. Too bad the board doesn't have a YamahaJames member to address the point.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 06:51 PM

Its obviously a defect, yes. However, I think there is some merit in wanting to completely disable any input that is not being used, for the absolute best SNR, especially on a premium product. They should have used a switch of some description.

It would be good if someone could measure the maximum possible input level at the onset of clipping.

Greg.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 07:06 PM

To call it a defect suggests it was unintended by Yamaha and that something is faulty. It clearly was intended so it's not a defect as such - but there just doesn't seem to be a sensible explanation!

In fact it's totally crazy that there is this noise-gate. It's doubly cruel because one of the uses it most specifically excludes is the use of software pianos because a good deal of some piano music causes the listener to focus on very quiet, lingering and decaying passages and notes - and it is under these circumstances the noise-gate carves up the sound in a very ugly way.
Posted by: Macy

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
To call it a defect suggests it was unintended by Yamaha and that something is faulty. It clearly was intended so it's not a defect as such - but there just doesn't seem to be a sensible explanation!

In fact it's totally crazy that there is this noise-gate. ...

I'm not sure it was intended. I'd have to see a schematic for this product and see how it was implemented. If it is a discrete implementation (extra transistor, etc) then I'd say it was probably intended since it wasn't removed. But if it is part of a multi-function analog IC taken from another product (and an undefeatable feature of that IC), it may have been used without the (inexperienced?) engineer realizing the function was in the IC, and changing the design was too time-consuming when it was finally discovered. The fact that it shows up as a troubleshooting problem in the manual, with no reasonable need for the function it performs, seems to suggest that it was somehow implemented by mistake.

Posted by: sullivang

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/08/12 09:21 PM

Whether or not Yamaha intended for there to be a noise-gate, IMHO from the customer's perspective the line input is "defective", because it does not function properly. I agree that it is plausible that it's there by pure accident - interesting thought!

Quote:
Regarding generating a background sound to defeat the noise-gate, here's a copy & paste from a post in an earlier thread:

FWIW, here's a VST test tone generator that you could try using in your VST host alongside your virtual piano, to (hopefully) defeat the noise gate: http://mda.smartelectronix.com/ (download the plugins and extract the "TestTone" one. Set mode to "Sine" and adjust the frequency and level. Careful not to blow your speakers).

If the idea works, it would be better if the test tone could be silenced when not required, to maintain headroom. I.e, it would continually monitor the (real) signal level, and only introduce the tone if the signal level drops below a threshold level. I'm sure a plugin developer could whip this up in no time. (I wonder whether some DAWs could be configured to do this, too)


If you can't find a frequency & level that is inaudible, white noise might sound less intrusive I suppose.

Greg.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 05:41 AM

One of the first adopters of the N3, who is a very valued member of PW, first found this problem and had some extensive correspondence with Yamaha regarding it. Yamaha are well aware of this characteristic and it is difficult to believe this happened by accident.

The N1 still has this problem and it was released ages after N3 and N2 so one can only draw the conclusion it was designed in to the AG series. Had it been a defect or fault then they would have changed the design for N1, surely?

Why did you do this Yamaha!!???
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 09:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the noise gate (which you cannot defeat) ruins and external audio playing through the N3's audio system.



I'll run my wife's laptop (which is more or less permanently connected to the N3) as the sound source for internet radio as well as playing back WAV or mp3 files to play against.

I have never encountered any deficiency in the sound and if there is in fact a noise gate, I've never noticed it, never.

(I also have a Symetrix 525 dual gated compressor\limiter in my rack case primarily for vocalists, so I'm familiar with setting thresholds to eliminate unwanted noise.)
Posted by: Dazzie2

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 09:55 AM

Does this happen to other yamaha dpianos, I have a yamaha clp440 i like the sounds on the piano but wanted to add more , i was getting a copy of ivory 2 with an external usb sound card and was going to use the internal speakers on the piano. I dont think you need to use midi cables as there is a usb to host .
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
[quote=Melodialworks Music]
I'll run my wife's laptop (which is more or less permanently connected to the N3) as the sound source for internet radio as well as playing back WAV or mp3 files to play against.

I have never encountered any deficiency in the sound and if there is in fact a noise gate, I've never noticed it, never.



Exactly. The material that you're running through the N3's audio system doesn't get soft enough to trigger the noise gate.

Install a software piano on the laptop, play and hold a note, at a low volume level. Listen as the note decays. The noise gate will kick in before the note has naturally decayed. Then you'll know exactly what some of us are experiencing.

If you play loud, and don't sustain notes, particularly in an exposed fashion (end of phrases, end of piece) then you'll likely not notice the issue.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 10:15 AM

No, other Yamaha digitals don't have this problem. But ...

If you're going through the trouble and expense of running a piano library (Ivory), I don't think it's worthwhile to feed those sounds back into the piano. The piano speakers aren't very good. I suggest using an external sound system.
Originally Posted By: Dazzie2
Does this happen to other yamaha dpianos? I was getting a copy of ivory 2 with an external usb sound card and was going to use the internal speakers on the piano.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 11:39 AM

Is this ... issue, a real world issue or do you have to close the curtains, turns the lights out, crank up the volume, play a single solitary note while you squint your eyes, and listen as it fades to oblivion?

In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?

Could someone provide a real world example of this and post it?
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 12:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne

In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?


Good grief. The answer is yes. Do you think we're making this stuff up?

Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.

In any case, you're not running software pianos through your N3 audio system. In fact, you really don't actually even use the audio system of the N3, but typically use headphones, right?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne

In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?


Good grief. The answer is yes. Do you think we're making this stuff up?

Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.

In any case, you're not running software pianos through your N3 audio system. In fact, you really don't actually even use the audio system of the N3, but typically use headphones, right?


I am not running software pianos through my N3 though I have run all kinds of music through the N3 listening through headphones as well as using its sound system. (As a matter of fact, I now use the N3 as my home stereo since it's more convenient to access than my home stereo.)

I just now played a sound source through the speaker system, going from completely off (no sound) to rather loud. I did not hear an abrupt threshold where a 'gate' opened. What I heard is the same I hear though my home stereo system, the sound starts very quietly and then gets louder.

So, in real world playing, using a software piano, there is an abrupt change in sound level from nothing to where a 'gate' opens ... and this is heard by many?
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 12:34 PM

The problem is real and easy to replicate and extremely impactive on the use of software pianos - in fact they would be completely unusable with the N3's onboard sound system.

My experience of it was with the use of a mic run through a Boss mic processor run into the N3's inputs. The Boss outputs the mic's sound at line level and of course adds whatever reverb/effects you want. If you use reverb and sing into the mic the reverb, as it dies away (not the last few milliseconds but when there is still very audible and essential reverb sound), just cuts off very abruptly making the thing totally unusable. I can see how the use of software pianos would be completely impossible. Which is a crying shame when you think about it.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 01:14 PM

Well, I used my Shure SM58 going into my Mackie 1202 mixer and the effects were supplied by an Alesis MicroVerb4. The output of the mixer was fed into the line IN (L+R) of the N3 ... and if there was a noise gate implemented by the N3, I did not hear it.

I spoke into the mic and let the reverb fade into oblivion. If there is in fact a noise gate, I can not imagine hearing it in real world use.

As for the mic and its sound, everything sounded as I expected it to ... and I was listening for something as described here. I didn't hear it. There were no abrupt fades where a noise gate's threshold was crossed. ... and I listened through Sennheiser HD 598's with the sound cranked.

I don't see this as a real world issue, but that's just my opinion.
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: IVORY II VERSES PIANOTEQ ON AVANT GRAND N3 - 02/09/12 01:31 PM

I think it depends a lot on the input signal used. If it's reasonably loud, the noise gate won't kick in much when playing normally. Playing very quietly, especially in higher registers, can lead to the noise gate ruining the sustain of every note though. But again if the input signal is loud and maybe has a bit of background noise it won't be much of an issue.

You should be able to test this on your N3 easily, just lower the input volume of your music enough and at some point the noise gate will start fighting the signal.