Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012

Posted by: DazedAndConfused

Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/19/12 06:47 PM

The "world's leading trade fair for the world of music" is just around the corner.

What new product(s) would you like to see annouced at this event? Or new features added to an existing product.

I will get the ball rolling:

1) The V-Piano Upright for the type of person who hasn't the space / budget for the V-Piano Grand but want the touch and sound of the V in a family friendly format. Me, for example. Price? Less than half way between the V-Piano and the V-Piano Grand.

2) Any DP from any manufacturer with a user interface that actually belongs in the 21st century and puts all the others to shame.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/19/12 07:29 PM

I'd like to see an affordable hybrid that uses the action from a nine footer.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/19/12 07:38 PM

An affordable hybrid with a grand action, period.

Actually, on the perfection side it would be nice if someone would make a hybrid that actually incorporated the weight of the dampers correctly. On acoustics, the downweight of a key is significantly lower when the pedal is depressed. All digitals and hybrids currently living have a constant downweight, unrelated to the pedal. AvantGrands appear to aim for a downweight in between the two acoustic scenarios, which feels heavy to some people.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/19/12 08:28 PM

How about a tablet actually made for musicians - big enough for full-sized print music, a simple blinking light metronome (app controlled, of course but one that doesn't take up screen space to operate) and a powered connection that can draw from the keyboard. And access to sample libraries from some of our favorite software instruments, perhaps only limited patches, but available for live output.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/19/12 08:46 PM

To complement Sam's suggestion, how about a good quality, weighted-key controller (i.e. action only, no onboard sounds), with a USB jack developed especially for tablets?
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/19/12 08:54 PM

Can we expect any new models whether slab or console- Some of the brands seem due after 3 years
Posted by: McBuster

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/19/12 10:45 PM

I will jump in ... Tee hee

Maybe ...

A new Kawai CA63/93 Replacement with

Better Action - closer to design of a Renner
Real Let Off
Real hammer weight
ABS Mechanism
Better Amplifier system - more power
Two Actuators on the Soundboard - Mid Range and Low Range
Real Spruce Soundboard?
Updated cabinet
Optical Sensors (3-4) on each Key
New - Updated Piano sampled tones
Follow on to UPHI? Better than Roland SN?

And,

Maybe a "Kindle" (iPad?) for downloading thousands of Music Scores for cheap
Ability to change Key on Demand and Illustrate Score properly on Kindle
USB connection between Piano and Kindle and ability to follow Music played and scroll Score across Screen in a bidirectional manner

+++

If not now, maybe at NAMM ... Tee hee
Posted by: dje31

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 09:39 AM

Okay, so we've known about the Electro 4D for a while...and the show is officially open...awfully quiet so far. Any new news?
Posted by: DazedAndConfused

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 10:01 AM

Pretty boring in terms of DP news:

http://www.musicradar.com/event/musikmesse
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 10:02 AM

Roland Jupiter 50 has been announced.
Posted by: dje31

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 11:04 AM

Well, I hate to be the voice of reason (actually, I don't), but with the global economy still in the toilet, I'd say this is a sign of the times. If folks ain't buyin'---either because they can't, or are holding on tight, or are satisfied with what they have---then it's hard to justify the R&D $$$, to put out new stuff, if you're not moving existing product.

Having spent time in retail, I know, it's a tough gig when times are good---especially with commodity items and internet commerce...it's even tougher when the economy is in the tank.

Nord seems to be doing okay...well, at least they're putting out product...
Posted by: f.locutus

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 02:29 PM

Maybe something ...
Posted by: dje31

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 03:12 PM

Interesting on the Physis Piano. Seems like an actual competitor for the V-Piano. Any word on pricing or availability? Or is it vaporware?
Posted by: doremi

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 04:18 PM

Posted by: voxpops

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: dje31
Interesting on the Physis Piano. Seems like an actual competitor for the V-Piano. Any word on pricing or availability? Or is it vaporware?

This is yet another Italian venture that pushes the envelope. I shall be very interested to see/hear this product. I just hope they have instituted proper quality control and parts sourcing, as well as effective marketing and customer support, as those seem to be the areas where they don't often score high marks.
Posted by: CyberGene

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 04:40 PM

At the bottom of the page it says: Viscount. Wasn't that a sample library manufacturer?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 04:51 PM

Viscount is/was a manufacturer of digital pianos and organs. They used to be in cahoots with Oberheim, and now they produce Galileo brand instruments.
Posted by: f.locutus

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
I just hope they have instituted proper quality control and parts sourcing, as well as effective marketing and customer support, as those seem to be the areas where they don't often score high marks.


I hope it too voxpops (also as an Italian) and naturally I'm also courious to listen how it sounds.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: f.locutus


Looks interesting.

The touch panel reminds me of the Kawai DP1...
Posted by: dje31

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 08:33 PM

I can't help but be reminded of the GEM ProMega series...for which I always pined, but I'm not sure ever lived up to its potential. Perhaps these folks will get it right.

I also can't help but wonder if GEM PM folks are also involved here...
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/21/12 09:07 PM

Originally Posted By: dje31
I can't help but be reminded of the GEM ProMega series...for which I always pined, but I'm not sure ever lived up to its potential. Perhaps these folks will get it right.

I also can't help but wonder if GEM PM folks are also involved here...

Both the Physis and GEM products have had university input (Padova in the case of GEM). I suspect that the research has been ongoing for years, with cross-fertilization involving former GEM employees. I saw a post recently from a Viscount rep that stated that their i-motion chip is similar to GEM's Drake engine.

Having owned two GEM products based on the Promega engine, I can say that it was a great concept, but that the long-term reliability factor was an issue.
Posted by: Manolios

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 12:34 AM

Originally Posted By: doremi
I want prettier girls to demo the DPs grin


+1

eek
Posted by: maurus

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 08:56 AM

Sexism everywhere? What about prettier boys? cool
Posted by: Providence

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 12:29 PM

Girls look nicer lying across pianos than boys do
Posted by: doremi

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 06:43 PM

Posted by: McBuster

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 06:48 PM

Hmmmm ...

All that depends on their ages ...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 07:14 PM

Back on topic...

I'm a little curious about the BK-5 OR ('OR' = 'oriental'?) backing keyboard from Roland:

http://www.rolandconnect.com/product.php?p=bk-5_or

Although this type of 'arranger' product isn't terribly interesting for me personally, it's clear that Roland have identified a market need for an instrument that caters for Arabic tastes.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
it's clear that Roland have identified a market need for an instrument that caters for Arabic tastes.


Another product to plug one of the holes left when GEM went belly-up. Their "oriental" workstations with quarter-tone capability were fascinating keyboards.
Posted by: toddy

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 07:28 PM

Santana settings and all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SYnEyCoSo&feature=related

It's an up-market cheese bucket. Fascinating.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 07:35 PM

Dripping in cheese, but there's no denying he's a great player, and does an excellent job of demo-ing the board.

Cheese Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Wow, it has an onboard vocoder too (around the 7 minute mark...)?
Posted by: toddy

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 07:58 PM

Yep. I couldn't lick his boots - not in that respect anyway.....and it should be remembered there's room enough in this world for some cheese.

.....must admit, though, I hadn't navigated anywhere near into the 7 minutes mark. I shall don my topee and have another go.

Crikey! Jangling chain round his neck, slick-back hair, distorted mike-into-PA effect.....he's really done his homework this bloke.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 08:11 PM

Viscount Physis looks impressive (and expensive)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GCzvwFbWxk

Two models, plastic keys (4l lbs) or wood keys (60 lbs)
Posted by: toddy

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 08:28 PM

It certainly does look expensive, yes.

24 GHz processing, I think he said. How does that compare to the V-piano? Actually, the piano sounded a bit like V-Piano to me.
Posted by: alekkh

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 09:06 PM

Doesn't it sound a lot like $599 GEM RP-X piano module? The unnatural ringing at forte in particular.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 09:26 PM

Looks and sounds promising.

I would have preferred to hear the Rhodes model without the phaser, but hey, at least you're giving the option to chose from different models (are you watching Roland?).

Fatar action, presumably?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: dje31

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 09:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James

Fatar action, presumably?


I can't possibly imagine otherwise.
Posted by: ando

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James


Fatar action, presumably?

Cheers,
James
x



Way to take the sheen off a product, hey?

Fatar actions are almost universally known as being sub-standard next to the actionbs made by the big 3. Why on earth would you develop an expensive, ground-breaking product and skimp on the action?

On the other hand, why don't Fatar just pull their finger out and just develop a premium performance action...?
Posted by: dje31

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 10:20 PM

Originally Posted By: ando

On the other hand, why don't Fatar just pull their finger out and just develop a premium performance action...?


Now that's just crazy talk.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/22/12 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: ando
Why on earth would you develop an expensive, ground-breaking product and skimp on the action?


Because developing a realistic keyboard action is expensive, relative to software development.

And in the internet-era, consumers no longer visit stores, or play-test instruments with their own hands, rather they rely on audio demos and YouTube clips before purchasing online. I believe a Nord rep was quoted the other day as saying "It's all about the sound...", right?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: ando

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/23/12 01:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: ando
Why on earth would you develop an expensive, ground-breaking product and skimp on the action?


Because developing a realistic keyboard action is expensive, relative to software development.

And in the internet-era, consumers no longer visit stores, or play-test instruments with their own hands, rather they rely on audio demos and YouTube clips before purchasing online. I believe a Nord rep was quoted the other day as saying "It's all about the sound...", right?

Cheers,
James
x


And yet, on PW we have almost as many discussions about actions as we do about sound...

Fatar is actually an action company - so I don't know what their excuse could possibly be for not getting developing better actions. They seem to be standing still at the moment. In the end, an action isn't that complicated, they could even take their pointers from existing good actions and incorporate these things into their own designs. I'm damn sure I could come up with a decent action myself if I had access to the Fatar laboratory. Geez, you'd think it was rocket science. Now granted, they are targeted more towards the lighter portable market, but if they are going to start appearing in heavier, expensive flagship instruments, they need to lift their game and develop an action that lives up to the premise of the product.
Posted by: alekkh

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/23/12 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: ando
Why on earth would you develop an expensive, ground-breaking product and skimp on the action?


Because developing a realistic keyboard action is expensive, relative to software development.

And in the internet-era, consumers no longer visit stores, or play-test instruments with their own hands, rather they rely on audio demos and YouTube clips before purchasing online. I believe a Nord rep was quoted the other day as saying "It's all about the sound...", right?

Cheers,
James
x


And yet, on PW we have almost as many discussions about actions as we do about sound...

Fatar is actually an action company - so I don't know what their excuse could possibly be for not getting developing better actions. They seem to be standing still at the moment. In the end, an action isn't that complicated, they could even take their pointers from existing good actions and incorporate these things into their own designs. I'm damn sure I could come up with a decent action myself if I had access to the Fatar laboratory. Geez, you'd think it was rocket science. Now granted, they are targeted more towards the lighter portable market, but if they are going to start appearing in heavier, expensive flagship instruments, they need to lift their game and develop an action that lives up to the premise of the product.


Fatar could come up with a good action by infringing a hundred of Roland and Yamaha patents. After paying licensing fees, Fatar is quickly out of business.
Posted by: ando

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/23/12 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: alekkh
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: ando
Why on earth would you develop an expensive, ground-breaking product and skimp on the action?


Because developing a realistic keyboard action is expensive, relative to software development.

And in the internet-era, consumers no longer visit stores, or play-test instruments with their own hands, rather they rely on audio demos and YouTube clips before purchasing online. I believe a Nord rep was quoted the other day as saying "It's all about the sound...", right?

Cheers,
James
x


And yet, on PW we have almost as many discussions about actions as we do about sound...

Fatar is actually an action company - so I don't know what their excuse could possibly be for not getting developing better actions. They seem to be standing still at the moment. In the end, an action isn't that complicated, they could even take their pointers from existing good actions and incorporate these things into their own designs. I'm damn sure I could come up with a decent action myself if I had access to the Fatar laboratory. Geez, you'd think it was rocket science. Now granted, they are targeted more towards the lighter portable market, but if they are going to start appearing in heavier, expensive flagship instruments, they need to lift their game and develop an action that lives up to the premise of the product.


Fatar could come up with a good action by infringing a hundred of Roland and Yamaha patents. After paying licensing fees, Fatar is quickly out of business.



So you think the only solution is to continue to make crappy actions? Also, do you think that Roland/Yamaha/Kawai have totally unique actions, with no common features and they happen to have stumbled across the only 3 possible solutions to a good DP action? Fatar is a lazy company any way you slice it.
Posted by: Jake Johnson

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/23/12 09:19 AM

I'm waiting for a serious demo video of the Physis piano. Seems to have interesting parameters, such as the hammer mass, but the introductory video just doesn't reveal much. (Other than the insight into how physical modelling is like making a cookie.)

Strange, really. Why announce without taking an hour to create a serious video with a step-through of each parameter?
Posted by: Ojustaboo

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/24/12 04:56 AM

Deleted
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/24/12 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Ojustaboo
The Youtube clip implies physical modelling is both new and unique to the Physis piano.

No, he says that multiple physical models (it has 5: piano, rhodes, wurli, clav, mallet) is new and unique in a digital piano, and he's right.

Of course sales pitches don't go out of their way to tell you what else may come close to their product, but what he says is correct. The V-Piano has only a single physical model. You can get multiple physical models in a computer setup (you can run pianoteq and other software simultaneously), but not built into a DP.

This was just mentioned in another forum, where someone noted these specific quotes from his pitch:

"...to illustrate how what physical modeling is, and how this piano, and this technology is different from all the other DPs in the market..." makes clear he's not talking about computer setups or anything that isn't a DP

"making this the only product on the market with multiple physical models inside" makes clear that he is distinguishing this from products that have only one physical model... it basically is a way of saying that there are other DPs that have just one (i.e. V Piano).
Posted by: pv88

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/27/12 02:55 AM

@ anotherscott,

Have to disagree with your statement that the "V-Piano has only a single physical model" as Roland says that they have two models, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxA

Scott Tibbs indicates the two models in the V-Piano, being:

1) Steinway "D" (Vintage model)
2) Bosendorfer (Vanguard model)

He demonstrates the Bosendorfer sound in the video.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt - March 21 - 24 2012 - 03/27/12 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: pv88
Have to disagree with your statement that the "V-Piano has only a single physical model" as Roland says that they have two models, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxA

Scott Tibbs indicates the two models in the V-Piano, being:

1) Steinway "D" (Vintage model)
2) Bosendorfer (Vanguard model)

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of (or had forgotten) that detail!

I guess the Physis demo could be forgiven if his statement were to be interpreted as meaning theirs is the first DP with models for different instruments (acoustic piano, electric piano, clav...) as opposed to only one instrument, acoustic piano. Sales-speak always means "find the most impressive way you can possibly say something while still finding some way for it to be true." ;-)