"PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist

Posted by: Yuri Pavlov

"PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 04/29/12 05:09 AM

Do you think this keyboard corresponds to grand piano?
I tried the Roland Fp7f and could not play a descent some quick things (etudes 1 and 24 of Chopin), while a real grand piano and Korg SP250 play them without problems (http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a...409182582_n.jpg)
Does anyone have experience of execution of works fast on this keyboard? I understand the need to get used to it, but fear that this may create problems when playing a real grand piano
Posted by: trigalg693

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 04/29/12 07:20 AM

It's different from a real piano yes, but if you understand what I mean it's "harder" to play than a real piano so it's actually not hard to adjust back. Maybe like 20 minutes or so you'll get used to a real piano again.

You shouldn't be concerned that the first time you can't play something hard on a digital piano. I couldn't do it either, needed a few minutes to adjust.

Funny thing I found is last time I played at my teacher's studio class, I hadn't touched a real piano in a while, and the biggest problem was my fingers slipping! What happened is the FP-7F Ivory keytops have pretty good grip, and because the resistance at the beginning of the key's stroke is I think higher than normal, I got used to the higher amount of friction holding my fingers to the keys.
Posted by: timtopham

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/09/12 07:41 AM

You can definitely do fast repetitions on the FP7F - it's action is about as close to a grand piano as any digital (perhaps bar the AvantGrand)!
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/09/12 11:43 AM

Plenty of musicians use them for just that purpose...and few here with more extensive experience with both would argue that the Korg RM3 action is ultimately as successful as the Roland action. Don't get me wrong, I like the SP250 and have recommended it here for its price, but I don't put it in the same class.

FWIW, I had a customer on Saturday who had an older Yamaha Clavinova and no longer enjoyed it, and after trying new Roland, Yamaha & Casio, preferred the Casio action best. So preference trumps but there is no deficiency in the Roland for advanced repertoire.
Posted by: rour

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/09/12 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Yuri Pavlov
Do you think this keyboard corresponds to grand piano?

yes, I think it does - in 83 percent.
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/09/12 11:50 PM


Which exactly actions have 3 sensors?

All the current Casio Privia and Celviano models have them.
Also the new Kawai ES7 with RHII.

The 3rd sensor is crucial for fast repetitions. And it allows to use the same playing technique as on a real acoustic piano,
without exaggerated release of keys. It is important not just when repeating the same key, but when fast playing multiple keys without changing finger positions on (some of) the keys. Or even when jumping to the already pressed key with a different finger.

I heard that Casio tri-sensor keyboards were officially approved by American Music Association to be used by students for practicing. That tells something about their realistic action and the importance of three sensors.
I guess, if you are a virtuoso you can play like a virtuoso on these keyboards.
Or you can become a virtuoso by playing on them.

Some people don't care about the third sensor. I think they could not be more wrong.
The third sensor contributes a lot to a more relaxed (and mentally relaxed too) and more natural playing.
Posted by: rour

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/10/12 02:37 AM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor

The 3rd sensor is crucial for fast repetitions.


no at all - crucial for repetition is escapement.
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/10/12 04:56 AM

Originally Posted By: rour
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor

The 3rd sensor is crucial for fast repetitions.


no at all - crucial for repetition is escapement.


Actually, double escapement. Which is not available on most of acoustic pianos (uprights) anyway.

But the third sensor is a simple and cheap way to simulate the effect of double escapement - no need to lift the key up too much before playing it again.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/10/12 09:31 AM

There are several weird statements on this thread. I can't tell if it's language/terminology issues or conceptual issues. Let's be clear about a few things:

* Escapement has nothing to do with speed of repetition, and is not a differentiator between digitals and acoustics as far as speed is concerned.

* Double escapement is the name given to a mechanism that allows a note to be repeated without being completely lifting the key and resetting the action. This allows a faster repetition. The mechanism is only found in grand pianos.

* A three sensor action allows a note to be replayed without completely lifting it above the first sensor, so it does the same thing as a double escapement.

* To say a triple action or double escapement is critical is equivalent to saying it's critical not to play on upright acoustics...only grands. If you believe one can't play well with a two-sensor action you also logically believe you can't play well on an acoustic upright.

* Triple sensor actions:

Kawai RHII (ES7)
Roland PHAIII (FP7f, RD700NX, and others)
Yamaha GH3 (nicer clavinovas. Not available on any stage pianos or the Arius line)

* When a digital says it has 'escapement', as the Roland in question does, they are referring to a little piece of plastic that the key brushes against as you play. It serves zero purpose as far as repetition speed is concerned. It just makes the depression of the key have a little click to it, similar to a click that you get in a grand piano due to the double escapement (one that I personally find annoying). It's not normally what you would call "useful."

* Although the triple sensor emulates the behavior of a grand (double escapement) its effectiveness depends on the placement of the third sensor. It is not the same between all manufacturers and not necessarily the same as what you find on a grand (not that all grands are the same either). In testing we find that the third sensor allows for you to repeat a note after lifting it more or less 1mm less high (I don't recall which manufacturer this was). That's not a very big difference. When this was looked at a few years ago, it appeared that Yamaha triple actions placed the third sensor very close to the other one so that it made little difference and Roland placed it a little farther away. The Kawai third sensor hasn't been examined yet. Anyway one reason people say the third sensor doesn't matter much is because of imperfect implementation in many cases.

The other reason is that many people asking this question are beginners and beginners are not likely to repeat notes fast enough to notice the third sensor in a digital, nor the double escapement in a grand.

Finally, in response to the OP, "corresponds" is a very ambiguous word. From the rest of the post I infer that you are asking if it plays as easily as a grand. There have been a number of threads about the PHAIII action in which the complaint (if you can call it that) is that the action is easier to play quickly and with fast, even repetitions than an acoustic grand is. This is great while on the digital, but it can make it difficult when you go back to a grand, which may not be as easy (some grands are obviously much easier than others because of design or regulation). This is the first time I have heard someone say PHAIII is harder to play fast or repeated notes than an acoustic or other digitals. For that reason I suspect that the other posters are right in saying that you may feel differently about it after you have adjusted to the action. No digital feels just like an acoustic, and two acoustics will not necessarily feel the same.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/10/12 10:10 AM

The ability to play very rapid repeated notes on my DP with PHA-III is limited only by my technique, but I can't say that for most acoustic uprights and some grands. But all the well-regulated acoustic grands I've ever played have no problem in this regard; not so all well-regulated uprights. Some have easier action than others, but I wouldn't say that the PHA-III is easier than any (or even most) acoustic grands.
Posted by: rour

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/10/12 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
The ability to play very rapid repeated notes on my DP with PHA-III is limited only by my technique, but I can't say that for most acoustic uprights and some grands. But all the well-regulated acoustic grands I've ever played have no problem in this regard; not so all well-regulated uprights.


thumb
Posted by: slipperykeys

Re: "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement" for pianist - 07/11/12 02:54 AM

Originally Posted By: trigalg693


Funny thing I found is last time I played at my teacher's studio class, I hadn't touched a real piano in a while, and the biggest problem was my fingers slipping!


My first electric piano was a Roland RD300S which I bought on the recommendation of a friend. They were few and far between and I never got to try one out before buying it.
To say I was amazed that Roland considered the key surface acceptable is an understatement. I thought the damned thing was horrible and almost unplayable.(Hence my user name, I find the keys are slippery, not my fingers!)
Eventually me and the Roland came to a compromise, I simply gave up classical for 5 years as I came to terms with the £1200 lump of garbage sitting in the lounge.

When I decided to replace it, in 2011(!) I still bought a Roland, and yes, it is much better but it seems I would like emery cloth covered keys compared to what others like.

I get on fine though with the RD700NX and am back to actually enjoying trying to play Chopin again.

BTW, I still own the RD300S and wouldn't part with it.