CASIO releases 4 new models

Posted by: Kbeaumont

CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 01:30 PM

PX150, PX350, PX750, PX850, new proprietary sound source, “AiR” (Acoustic and intelligent Resonator) 3 times the sample memory, 256 note polyphony, Ivory finish keys, ability to record 44.1khz to flash drive.

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/casio-supercharges-the-privia-with-four-new-models/148998
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 03:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Kbeaumont
PX150, PX350, PX750, PX850, new proprietary sound source, “AiR” (Acoustic and intelligent Resonator) 3 times the sample memory, 256 note polyphony, Ivory finish keys, ability to record 44.1khz to flash drive.

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/casio-supercharges-the-privia-with-four-new-models/148998


Well, this is great news! I wonder if they've improved the build-quality of the keybeds as well....and if this new sound generation technology will carry over to the Celviano line, especially the AP-620!

I can't wait to try one....

Cheers,

K.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 03:20 PM

Hmm.. I might actually buy one of these. My piano teacher swears against Casio because she thinks they are "cheap foreign junk"..but I think they are making strides with the Privia line. I had my sights set on a Roland F-120 but I might give this stuff a shot.
Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 03:25 PM

[Casio is] cheap foreign junk

This is a really curious opinion because, unless you count the relatively rare Nord products, or the virtually defunct GEM keyboards, they are ALL Japanese: Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Korg AND Casio. Is your teacher Japanese, by any chance. If not, this opinion doesn't seem to hold water. And if she is Japanese, why is Casio any different from the others?

In any case, this new range sounds like a very serious proposition - I look forward to trying them!
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 03:55 PM

This is very encouraging news indeed. The sound engine for Casio pianos hasn't really been updated for a number of years, and its deficiencies were well-noted. If this update addresses the principal shortcomings of over-rapid decay and obvious stretching, it will go a long way towards making the Privia line truly competitive with the other contenders. The upgraded keyboard is welcome, too, particularly if it moves the feel more towards the recent offerings from Kawai and Roland.

Realistically, while the memory increase is welcome, I wonder whether it's sufficient to address both stretching and decay (not to mention looping). I seem to recall that Casios are generally stretched over groups of three or four notes, and so it's debatable whether a 3x memory allocation is going to do more than deal with a single issue - either stretching, or decay, or loop lengths. Of course, they may be employing some very sophisticated technology to eke out the available resources across the board, but I note that there is no mention of 88-key sampling. Still, the proof of the pudding...
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 03:59 PM

The other interesting question is whether there will be a load of discounted PX130/5s available.
(Did a PX335 ever meet the light of day?)
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 04:16 PM

Like the rest of you I think this is great news. Purely in terms of spec the new pianos will rival the (very much) more expensive stuff.

I wonder what the price will be however - some increase is to be expected and I would have thought quite justified given the improvement to the spec...

Graded hammer action
Simulated ivory
Decent (at least much improved) sample memory
New sound engine
Great polyphony

It all puts some of the £2000 stage pianos to shame.

Good luck to Casio.

Steve
Posted by: jarosujo

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 04:21 PM

The PX-150 can be purchased for an MSRP of $899.99, the PX-350 for an MSRP of $1,099.99 , the PX-750 for an MSRP of $1,099.99 and the black PX-850 for an MSRP of $1,499.99. For additional information regarding Casio’s Privia line of digital pianos, please visitwww.casiomusicgear.com
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 06:53 PM

$1,499.99 eh? I want to see more information on these things. Casio's website only has the low end of the new pianos up right now.
Posted by: justpin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 07:13 PM

Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Korg AND Casio

Except funny enough I did not realise Roland and Korg were Japanese either until I really looked into it.
Posted by: justpin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 07:15 PM

Simulated ivory

Why is this a good thing? I've always found pianos and keyboards to have slippery keys. TBH I'd prefer grippy keys. It may well be my inexperience but unless I hit them absolutely square on, I slip (this may well be related to the hand care thread I made as my hands are exceptionally smooth from constant washing).
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By: justpin
Simulated ivory

Why is this a good thing?


Because it is less slippery than normal plastic.
Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 08:05 PM

justpin, regarding the slippery keys. Yes, you are right that standard keys found on the majority of acoustic pianos - including most grands produced in the last 60 years, I'd guess, can be quite slippery. But that is precisely because they are not made of ivory, but a kind of resin or plastic. Real ivory keys, which thankfully are no longer a legal or commercial option, had a better grip. Over the last couple of decades, piano manufacturers have increasingly been putting fake ivory plastic keys on their pianos to make them easier and more pleasant to play. For some reason, it seems that the proportion of digitals with ivory keys is far greater than that found on acoustic pianos, even new ones.

Regarding Roland and Korg - yeah, back in the 1970s, I had a vague idea that Korg was English - based in Cambridge, and that Roland was American. But no, they're as Japanese as Kawasaki. It's funny, but there doesn't seem to have been even one British synthesiser/ electronic keyboard manufacturer of note. Unless you count the great and glorious Mellotron, built in Birmingham out of parts for BSA motorbikes (or very similar).



Isn't that a darling? Was used for Court of the Crimson King, apparently. (And I'm thinking it would go nice in Melodial Works's 'messy old' studio grin

As for the mighty American companies: Moog, Oberheim, ARP, Rhodes, Hammond, Rogers - and more recently Sequential Circuits and Ensoniq......I don't think any of them are still going any more. Not as wholly US design and manufacturing companies, anyway. There is Alesis of course. They do some great, innovative things, but I don't think anyone would say their keyboards are up to much in terms of piano-like touch.

So thank God for the Japanese, would be my conclusion.



Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By: toddy
It's funny, but there doesn't seem to have been even one British synthesiser/ electronic keyboard manufacturer of note

EMS
Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 08:32 PM

Oh yes. Wasn't that the synth in a suitcase? The Man From UNCLE solution?
Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 08:36 PM

Yep:



Between the two of them, dunno which looks better. But, as a Brit, my heart bursts with pride. Thinking outside the box - or at least different shaped boxes - that's what it's all about.
Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 08:45 PM

Hey, and here's the big brother:



....of course they didn't consider putting a keyboard on it - just shelves and drawers to keep things tidy. Far too snooty for anything as useful as a keyboard. (More British pride grin ).
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/12/12 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Realistically, while the memory increase is welcome, I wonder whether it's sufficient to address both stretching and decay (not to mention looping). I seem to recall that Casios are generally stretched over groups of three or four notes, and so it's debatable whether a 3x memory allocation is going to do more than deal with a single issue - either stretching, or decay, or loop lengths. Of course, they may be employing some very sophisticated technology to eke out the available resources across the board, but I note that there is no mention of 88-key sampling. Still, the proof of the pudding...

Yes, Casio (along with virtually every other DP manufacturer) could really, really use something along the lines of a ~30x memory upgrade. But if they reduce the stretching, fix their decay profile, and throw in some decent sympathetic resonance, watch out!

Two (count 'em, two!) brownie points to the person who provides the first DPBSD MP3 stool sample!
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 01:03 AM

No videos of the new pianos on you tube yet. Sounds like the same piano sample is being used with a new sound processor. Any opinions on Casio fixing the problems with their keybeds? What about the price hikes. All the new models will cost nearly 50 percent more than the current models. Are there enough improvements?
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 01:09 AM

The Celvianos will probably get the same improvements as the Privias. Casio to date uses the same technology and action in both lines. It will be interesting to see where the pricing goes on the Celvianos. It looks to have doubled on the Privias.
Posted by: Stevesie

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 03:04 AM

It seems quite ridiculous that in 2012 musicians are still hoping that a new model of piano will have a decent sample memory. I'm still in the market for a DP but I am having trouble parting with my money when they generally still sound nothing like an acoustic piano.

Seriously, stop drip feeding the improvements in technology!
Posted by: slipperykeys

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By: toddy
Yep:



Between the two of them, dunno which looks better. But, as a Brit, my heart bursts with pride. Thinking outside the box - or at least different shaped boxes - that's what it's all about.


Tragically that is an early English Sandwich Toaster, from about Queen Anne, I'd say.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Stevesie
It seems quite ridiculous that in 2012 musicians are still hoping that a new model of piano will have a decent sample memory. I'm still in the market for a DP but I am having trouble parting with my money when they generally still sound nothing like an acoustic piano.

I completely agree with you.

However, Roland SN is fairly realistic sounding, with none of the compression artifacts you hear in Yamaha, Casio, Kawai, etc. Pretty good sympathetic resonance too.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Stevesie
It seems quite ridiculous that in 2012 musicians are still hoping that a new model of piano will have a decent sample memory. I'm still in the market for a DP but I am having trouble parting with my money when they generally still sound nothing like an acoustic piano.

I completely agree with you.

However, Roland SN is fairly realistic sounding, with none of the compression artifacts you hear in Yamaha, Casio, Kawai, etc. Pretty good sympathetic resonance too.


+1 on that. its amazing that my iPhone has 13.6 GB of memory and we all go "oooohhh" over Nords onboard 500 MB. i know not all memory is the same. But this industry is dragging its feet on this issue. the Kronos seems to be breaking to the lead on this, if they can get the complete package together.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 03:37 PM

Originally Posted By: bfb
its amazing that my iPhone has 13.6 GB of memory and we all go "oooohhh" over Nords onboard 500 MB. i know not all memory is the same.

Correct, apples and oranges, except Nord oranges are red.

The iphone 4 has the most memory of any iPhone... 512 mb of volatile RAM. Nord has 500 mB (or whatever) of more expensive non-volatile RAM (using a kind of flash). Separately, the iPhone has 16 gb+ of offline storage (another kind of flash). The fact that iOS devices have so little real RAM is why apps run out of memory, even though there is plenty of free storage space.

Kronos leads on the idea of using SSD streaming for pianos, probably because Korg has been building on the Linux foundation since the 2005 OASYS.
Posted by: Stevesie

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 07:35 PM

It's all about their profits, which is completely understandable in many ways, and also why it will never change! Unless we start an Open Source Digital Piano Project. I'm going to go get a start on whittling my keys ;-)
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
No videos of the new pianos on you tube yet. Sounds like the same piano sample is being used with a new sound processor. Any opinions on Casio fixing the problems with their keybeds? What about the price hikes. All the new models will cost nearly 50 percent more than the current models. Are there enough improvements?


This just appeared on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmFACTiuh7s

Cheers!

K.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 08:22 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: bfb
its amazing that my iPhone has 13.6 GB of memory and we all go "oooohhh" over Nords onboard 500 MB. i know not all memory is the same.

Correct, apples and oranges, except Nord oranges are red.

The iphone 4 has the most memory of any iPhone... 512 mb of volatile RAM. Nord has 500 mB (or whatever) of more expensive non-volatile RAM (using a kind of flash). Separately, the iPhone has 16 gb+ of offline storage (another kind of flash). The fact that iOS devices have so little real RAM is why apps run out of memory, even though there is plenty of free storage space.

Kronos leads on the idea of using SSD streaming for pianos, probably because Korg has been building on the Linux foundation since the 2005 OASYS.


great post.

go Kronos.



Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/13/12 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: KLSinCT
This just appeared on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmFACTiuh7s

Thanks!

And is it me, or do the upper mid notes (that his right hand spends so much time on) sound kind of bangy, like the velocity curve is set too soft?
Posted by: Stevesie

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/14/12 01:21 AM

Sounds like a bright jangly attacky digital piano! Could be the patch/settings/recording though.
Posted by: slipperykeys

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/14/12 05:41 AM

Great find on You Tube. Casio, like the other manufacturers seem to believe the best demonstration possible is a meandering dirge of trendy, go nowhere, "jazz" chords.

Perhaps one day a manufacturer will actually use real music to demonstrate their instrument.

I must say though, I did like it... thought it was a Roland RD 700 NX at first glimpse.
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/14/12 05:41 AM

One thing I notice from the clip is they've changed the text on top telling you what the buttons are - that looks rather more legible in low light conditions than on the 330.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/14/12 07:17 AM

Will any of you who currently own a PX-X30 series piano upgrade?
I did find the tone a little more natural than the current series. The attack on the demo did seem high, and it would be nice to hear a full song
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/14/12 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: KLSinCT
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
No videos of the new pianos on you tube yet. Sounds like the same piano sample is being used with a new sound processor. Any opinions on Casio fixing the problems with their keybeds? What about the price hikes. All the new models will cost nearly 50 percent more than the current models. Are there enough improvements?


This just appeared on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmFACTiuh7s

Cheers!

K.


I don't suppose there's any chance we're hearing the onboard speakers on that?
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/14/12 09:26 PM

On the Keyboard Corner Forum, Mike Martin of Casio said he ran the output through the line in of his MacBook laptop. He claimed the audio was not clean due to some interference he could not specify. He also said the PX-350 at the Casio booth was a prototype and said the non acoustic sounds were not finalized and that more tweaking would be done before they are released. I am guessing these might start to show up in stores in late September or mid to late October.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/14/12 11:24 PM

Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Great find on You Tube. Casio, like the other manufacturers seem to believe the best demonstration possible is a meandering dirge of trendy, go nowhere, "jazz" chords.

Perhaps one day a manufacturer will actually use real music to demonstrate their instrument.


That was Tom Brislin playing. Perhaps you've heard of him, he actually substituted for Rick Wakeman on tour for Yes. I don't know of too many people that have the chops or the courage to be able to handle such a gig. He's also toured with Meat Loaf, Marshall Crenshaw, Debbie Harry (Blondie) and countless others. He writes part time for Keyboard Magazine and also has one heck of a solo album about to come out (he's a great singer too). Frankly he's one of the best musician's I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Tom worked with Casio to demonstrate the XW-P1 synths at Winter NAMM and at this show the new Privia digital pianos.

I'm not sure how many of you have worked a NAMM show before, but it is exhausting. It is 8-10 hours of nearly continuous playing for 3-4 days straight (depending on winter or summer NAMM). Demos with dealers tend to come in waves and I took a moment between dealer demos to grab my camera and get a few moments of Tom just relaxing at the Privia and improvising for a few minutes. Yep it was informal and perhaps you think it was "meandering dirge of trendy, go nowhere, "jazz" chords". Needless to say, I look forward to hearing and seeing videos of your work very soon.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of my own and do not necessarily reflect the official position of any company that I work for.
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 01:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Great find on You Tube. Casio, like the other manufacturers seem to believe the best demonstration possible is a meandering dirge of trendy, go nowhere, "jazz" chords.

Perhaps one day a manufacturer will actually use real music to demonstrate their instrument.


That was Tom Brislin playing. Perhaps you've heard of him, he actually substituted for Rick Wakeman on tour for Yes. I don't know of too many people that have the chops or the courage to be able to handle such a gig. He's also toured with Meat Loaf, Marshall Crenshaw, Debbie Harry (Blondie) and countless others. He writes part time for Keyboard Magazine and also has one heck of a solo album about to come out (he's a great singer too). Frankly he's one of the best musician's I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Tom worked with Casio to demonstrate the XW-P1 synths at Winter NAMM and at this show the new Privia digital pianos.

I'm not sure how many of you have worked a NAMM show before, but it is exhausting. It is 8-10 hours of nearly continuous playing for 3-4 days straight (depending on winter or summer NAMM). Demos with dealers tend to come in waves and I took a moment between dealer demos to grab my camera and get a few moments of Tom just relaxing at the Privia and improvising for a few minutes. Yep it was informal and perhaps you think it was "meandering dirge of trendy, go nowhere, "jazz" chords". Needless to say, I look forward to hearing and seeing videos of your work very soon.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of my own and do not necessarily reflect the official position of any company that I work for.


Hi Mike!

Many thanks for posting the demo video of the new Casio PX-350 at summer NAMM. When will these new Privia models be available for purchase in the US? Also, will the wooden stand and triple-pedal unit of the PX-330 fit the new PX-350?

Cheers,

Kevin
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 01:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Stevesie
It seems quite ridiculous that in 2012 musicians are still hoping that a new model of piano will have a decent sample memory. I'm still in the market for a DP but I am having trouble parting with my money when they generally still sound nothing like an acoustic piano.

Seriously, stop drip feeding the improvements in technology!


I have two answers to this

(1) I recently sold a way-old Roland to a guy who makes his living playing in public. He thinks the sound is fine when you put it in a mix with others. People are making money with entry level or worse DPs while us play at home types complain about all kinds of technical stuff.

(2) you CAN have all that technical stuff, multi-gigabyte non-looped samples, layered sounds and studio quality impulse response reverb and you name it if only you connect a computer. The little Mac Mini only costs $600 and is the size of a large power brick. Sound is so good using a computer that most home users will make better recordings using MIDI than if they mic'd their acoustic grand piano.
Posted by: slipperykeys

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 01:55 AM

Mike,
You are missing the point. I am not in any way criticising the musician, I am not on any ego trip, I am happy to admit he is, (like many demonstrators) better than me.

I am not criticising the instrument, NAMM, workers/staff or anything like that.

I am criticising the manufacturers. Why, when so much great music that we can all identify and relate to, is in the public domain do companies think we all want to hear this stuff?
OK, this IS the first upload and yes, certainly, anything is better than nothing. Perhaps Casio will mix styles in their official output.
But many, many, videos DO use this sort of music to demonstrate a product.

Here as an example is a previous Casio video... it starts so well too (well, about 18 seconds in)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kfcz2YIgIY

I don't care how good a musician is, I (personally) hate it, I am sick of it and I stand by all I said.

Good thing we aren't all alike and please don't waste your time waiting for anything I may produce, even if I did it is quite obvious we probably have wildly differing tastes, despite the fact I do play Meatloaf, Blondie and Yes, along with the attempts at Chopin and Bach.

But, as I also said in my first post, I think it sounds like a great piano, I would just have liked to have heard it play something I know to give me a real reference.

As a Roland fan I have regard for John Maul and Scott Tibbs and am envious of ANY musician who works with these companies. It is a great honour to recieve the trust of people with so much to lose. That doesn't mean that I automatically love the choice of music, I (very) often don't.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 08:48 AM

Slipperykeys,
If there is something stylistically that you'd like to hear, then why not simply say what that is? I had nothing to do with the video you referenced but again instead of offering a suggestion of what kind of music you'd like to hear, you simply say what you don't want to hear. I'm not sure why you'd assume that we have different tastes in music, I don't think you know anything about me other than an assumption based on what Tom happened to be playing when I a quick moment to grab a camera.

The reality is during a NAMM show and an instrument like Privia we try to cover all styles of music and we played everything from classical, rock, jazz and everything in between.

Have a nice day,
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
That was Tom Brislin playing. Perhaps you've heard of him, he actually substituted for Rick Wakeman on tour for Yes...

... Needless to say, I look forward to hearing and seeing videos of your work very soon.

This strikes me as rather rude. You make it sound like only those with serious performance cred are qualified to comment on Casio videos.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 12:25 PM

The good thing about Casio pianos is that you can try them for yourself, playing whatever style of music you like. I would expect that these new models will be in stores well before the Christmas rush. With manufacturers such as Kawai, you are very often totally reliant on videos/sound samples in making your purchasing decision.

Personally, I didn't mind Tom Brislin's improvisation, as it revealed the basic character of the new Privia. My initial reaction was reasonably positive, although I thought I still detected the rapid decay issue. I hope to get to play one in a few weeks, if my local GC deigns to carry one.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 12:35 PM

I think we should try to encourage Mike to say around on here. There will be issues that he can advise upon and perhaps even resolve and he could be a great resource for Casio owners. We all know how much we value Kawai James around here. All the manufacturers should have a PianoWorld envoy!

Steve
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 12:40 PM

Dewster,
You're right, I probably shouldn't have added that last comment and I'm sorry that I did. My apologies if that came across as rude.   I just found his post rather puzzling.  Never in my career have I seen the what a performer played criticized, followed up by the words hate and sick about the same performance of a product demonstration.  Regardless of Tom's history and talent,  wouldn't it have been more constructive to say what you'd want to hear rather the trash what was played? We've got some time before these new Privia begin shipping, so I'd be happy to take requests on what you want to hear. In the meantime, I have a lot of audio and some additional video from NAMM that I'll try to get posted as quickly as possible. 
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 12:45 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I think we should try to encourage Mike to say around on here.


I hoped that would be the case after the XW launch, when Mike popped up on this forum after a long absence. Although I expect he's very busy, I too would like it if he could participate more widely (i.e not just at product launch times).

Sorry to talk about you in the third person, Mike! wink

Only a million miles off-topic, but if you like watching good improv and musicians having a great time with a well-known song, check out THIS.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 12:46 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I think we should try to encourage Mike to say around on here. There will be issues that he can advise upon and perhaps even resolve and he could be a great resource for Casio owners. We all know how much we value Kawai James around here. All the manufacturers should have a PianoWorld envoy!

Steve

I agree. My fault I suppose, I tend to see an "argument from authority" around every tree.
Posted by: rnaple

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 12:48 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
All the manufacturers should have a PianoWorld envoy!


I can be your envoy for "Over The Hill Piano Company"

Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
You're right, I probably shouldn't have added that last comment and I'm sorry that I did. My apologies if that came across as rude.   I just found his post rather puzzling.  Never in my career have I seen the what a performer played criticized, followed up by the words hate and sick about the same performance of a product demonstration.  Regardless of Tom's history and talent,  wouldn't it have been more constructive to say what you'd want to hear rather the trash what was played? We've got some time before these new Privia begin shipping, so I'd be happy to take requests on what you want to hear. In the meantime, I have a lot of audio and some additional video from NAMM that I'll try to get posted as quickly as possible. 

Mike I apologize for jumping on you, I suppose it's too easy to perceive intent that just isn't there within a text post.

Some do tend to let their hair down around here (guilty!) so if a comment seems overly harsh often it's just off-the-cuff and shouldn't be taken to heart.

I don't want to put words in Slipperykeys mouth, but some of the negativity may be due to frustration with the "flurry of notes" phenomenon so common with DP demos and built-in demo songs. This prevents one from hearing what individual sustained notes sound like. (And I must confess that jazz noodling isn't exactly my cup of tea either.)
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 01:38 PM

Mike,
We enjoy having you post here on this forum. I think someone should commend you on the work you have been doing for Casio over the last three years. The knowledge and support you have given users on the XW-P1 has been phenominal. There's no other manufacturer that I can think of that provides tutorials, workshops, product info and product launches quite the way that Casio has been doing. I appreciate the knowledge and straight foward approach you bring. You are doing a great job.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops


I hoped that would be the case after the XW launch, when Mike popped up on this forum after a long absence. Although I expect he's very busy, I too would like it if he could participate more widely (i.e not just at product launch times).

Sorry to talk about you in the third person, Mike! wink


I'm reading the forum all the time. Your feedback is critical for Casio's future. So I read it all, the good stuff as well as the criticisms not only here but on other forums. There honestly haven't been too many XW questions here on this forum and understand I have to watch some of the other high traffic XW threads such as the one on Harmony Central that has over 400 posts and almost 60,000 views.

Don't worry about talking about Mike in the third person, Mike does it all the time. wink
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 02:45 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Mike,
We enjoy having you post here on this forum. I think someone should commend you on the work you have been doing for Casio over the last three years. The knowledge and support you have given users on the XW-P1 has been phenominal. There's no other manufacturer that I can think of that provides tutorials, workshops, product info and product launches quite the way that Casio has been doing. I appreciate the knowledge and straight foward approach you bring. You are doing a great job.


Thanks Galaxy4t,
I just looked the calendar. 4 years ago today was my first day at Casio. Time flies when you're having fun!
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I think we should try to encourage Mike to say around on here. There will be issues that he can advise upon and perhaps even resolve and he could be a great resource for Casio owners. We all know how much we value Kawai James around here. All the manufacturers should have a PianoWorld envoy!

Steve


+1 thumb

K.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 02:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
I'm reading the forum all the time. Your feedback is critical for Casio's future. So I read it all, the good stuff as well as the criticisms not only here but on other forums. There honestly haven't been too many XW questions here on this forum and understand I have to watch some of the other high traffic XW threads such as the one on Harmony Central that has over 400 posts and almost 60,000 views.

Yes, synth stuff doesn't feature too prominently here, and I understand you must go where the interest lies. Just remember, though, Piano World is the Rolls-Royce of keyboard forums! wink

I agree with everyone who's said that it's really good to have you contributing here, when you have the time and energy. Heck, we need an industry rep who's not totally besotted with red paint!!! grin
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 05:35 PM

Ouch!
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 10:16 PM

Can you ladies stop fighting so Mike can show us a picture of the PX-750 and the PX-850. I want more info on these before I pull the trigger on an F-120
Posted by: moleskincrusher

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/15/12 11:29 PM

Two thank-yous:

pops: Thank you for sharing that very enjoyable "Billie Jean" clip.

slipperykeys: Thank you for speaking truth to power.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 08:32 AM

Privia PX-750


Privia PX-850
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Privia PX-750


Privia PX-850


Wow...very nice! I'm very much looking forward to seeing the spec sheets for the PX-750 and PX-850, and actually playing them. Looks like I'm going to put off buying a DP until these new Privias hit the streets! Any news about when they'll be available?

Cheers,

K.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 09:38 AM

The PX-150 and PX-350 should ship before the end of September here in the US. The PX-750 and PX-850 are targeted for October.

The PX-750 has a similar specification to the PX-150, the primary difference is the included stand with key cover.

The PX-850 is a different animal. In addition to the many physical differences in the cabinet, like the opening lid on top, the PX-850 has different capabilities of the AiR chip unlocked. Here is a quick run down:

18 Instrument Tones (5 are piano)
256 Note Polyphony
Damper Resonance
Hammer Response
Sympathetic Resonance
Lid simulation (This is separate from what the PX-850 cabinet will do) you can choose whether you ant the lid on the Grand Piano open, closed, half or removed.
1/4" Outputs
USB to Device with Audio Recording


Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 10:22 AM

So the 850 is the only model with sympathetic string resonance? It seems a shame that it's not in any compact/portable model (i.e. the 350).
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 10:37 AM

To Mike,

Dewster's comment about "the flurry of notes" is right on the money. The virtuosity of the pianist notwithstanding, the playing tends to mask the listeners ability to really hear what the piano produces. I realize it was an impromptu recording, and we all appreciate the opportunity to view it. So I thank you for providing it.

I didn't see any audio demos on the casio product website...Unless i missed finding them, and if so getting to them wasn't intuitive. Kind of surprised you would launch without that? Seems like a chance to solidify the buzz? Any demo work you can supply is greatly appreciated.

I am very excited about this launch. Casio's travel well and are a whole lot cheaper than a Nord. If it has decent action and a pleasant, non-confrontational acoustic piano sound, it could be a low cost performance option for a lot of people, and might let me retire my Yamaha P-250 armored piano.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 10:44 AM

Originally Posted By: bfb
I am very excited about this launch. Casio's travel well and are a whole lot cheaper than a Nord. If it has decent action and a pleasant, non-confrontational acoustic piano sound, it could be a low cost performance option for a lot of people


+1
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 11:13 AM

Originally Posted By: bfb

I didn't see any audio demos on the casio product website...Unless i missed finding them, and if so getting to them wasn't intuitive. Kind of surprised you would launch without that? Seems like a chance to solidify the buzz? Any demo work you can supply is greatly appreciated.


I was able to play these new models for the first time one week before NAMM in Tokyo Japan, we then shipped those prototypes directly to NAMM. We don't have audio demos up because the pianos (including the piano sounds) are not entirely finished. We will get some audio demos up soon, but I'm hesitant to post too many right away because it will change (for the better). Some of the nuance details that AiR can provide like the damper resonance are still being tweaked. smile
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 12:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
...the pianos (including the piano sounds) are not entirely finished. We will get some audio demos up soon, but I'm hesitant to post too many right away because it will change (for the better).

This is actually good news. It means there's a chance that the engineers can really hone the sounds to avoid the type of criticisms leveled at the previous generation - if there's enough latitude/memory available. I think it's very sensible to wait before posting demos that many will use to make initial, and possibly irrevocable, judgments.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 04:27 PM

Mike,
Can you comment on what will happen to the PX3 with all the revisions to the other Privias? I would imagine it would be due to be revised along with all the other privias.
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Mike,
Can you comment on what will happen to the PX3 with all the revisions to the other Privias? I would imagine it would be due to be revised along with all the other privias.


I'd like to know when the Celviano line will be updated like the new Privias.....perhaps in time for NAMM 2013?

K.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 05:30 PM

Sorry guys, I can't comment on future products although a PX-3 replacement is high on my wish list. Also keep in mind the PX-3 released almost a year after the PX-330.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Sorry guys, I can't comment on future products although a PX-3 replacement is high on my wish list. Also keep in mind the PX-3 released almost a year after the PX-330.

When it's time, I hope they get away from the thin black buttons on a black background. Not stage friendly.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
When it's time, I hope they get away from the thin black buttons on a black background. Not stage friendly.

+1
Posted by: Stevesie

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/16/12 06:05 PM

Mike, if you are tweaking sounds still, the attack on the piano sounds too, um, attacky? Maybe it's just too bright. Anywho, thanks for being on the forums and making affordable pianos!
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 04:52 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
So the 850 is the only model with sympathetic string resonance? It seems a shame that it's not in any compact/portable model (i.e. the 350).

Over on the PX-150 page:

http://www.casio.com/products/Digital_Pianos_%26_Keyboards/Privia_Digital_Pianos/PX-150WE/

I see: "For further realism a new Damper Resonance simulator provides the rich sound of the strings when the sustain pedal is used."

I get a little lost when it comes to what all these things labeled "resonance" mean ("damper resonance" seems like a contradiction in terms since dampers are there to quash resonance, and "string resonance" is so general it's kind of meaningless) but in this instance I think they mean pedal sympathetic resonance, which would be a very good thing to see improved in the Casio line.

Or by "sympathetic string resonance" were you (anotherscott) talking about key sympathetic resonance (a much more subtle effect)?
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 05:02 AM

From the KeyboardMag article:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/casio-supercharges-the-privia-with-four-new-models/148998

"Casio’s new proprietary sound source, “AiR” (Acoustic and intelligent Resonator), delivers unmatched realism and detail. Utilizing over three times the waveform memory of the previous generation, the AiR engine provides sensational dynamics, damper resonance and even compensates for the speed at which hammers strike strings at different velocities and key ranges.

The new expanded Privia line not only has four different models which are available in a variety of colors and finishes but some models have expanded capabilities of the AiR sound source with up to 256 notes of polyphony, sympathetic resonance and cabinet simulation. The PX-350 and PX-850 also provide the ability to record a 44.1kHz .wav file directly to a USB thumb drive so that rehearsals, performances and moments of inspiration can be easily captured and shared."


I'm getting confused. The first paragraph uses the term "damper resonance". The second paragraph uses the term "sympathetic resonance" and implies that it isn't implemented in all models.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 07:46 AM

I take damper resonance to be that wider, more complex and richer, er, resonant sound that happens when you press the damper pedal to simulate the fact all strings are free to resonate in sympathy* (*confusing choice of word by me there but I can't think of an alternative to better differentiate it from my next sentence, sorry).

I take sympathetic resonance to mean that little trick you can pull on some DPs whereby you can press a key down and then other key presses will excite that key/strings, if there is a harmonic relationship between them etc. The basic nature of these behaviours, ie, that undamped (either by pedal or key press) strings are free to resonate is so similar and, significantly, interconnected in terms of acoustic piano behaviour, that it is very disappointing that DP manufacturers see the need to separate them in this way. A cheap and unimaginative method of product differentiation if you ask me.

Steve
Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 08:40 AM

Dewster says "damper resonance" seems like a contradiction in terms since dampers are there to quash resonance, and "string resonance" is so general it's kind of meaningless

Maybe the contradiction in terms goes much farther back in history than DP blurb. The main pedal on a piano is called 'sustain pedal' or 'damper pedal' or, when I was a kid, simply the 'loud pedal'. The problem with the term 'damper' of course is that its active function is exactly the opposite: to undampen the strings. So logically, it should be called the 'undamper pedal' or the dedamper.

And surely, selective sympathetic resonance should happen 'automatically' if the DP designer has implemented 'pedal resonance' properly, because 'string/sympathetic resonance' is a specific, and technically a far more basic instance of 'pedal resonance'.

In other words, yes, I agree, Essbrace - the two types of resonance are part of the same thing......or should be.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: toddy
In other words, yes, I agree, Essbrace - the two types of resonance are part of the same thing......or should be.

In the physical world, they are. In the electronic world, it takes different techniques to implement them.

Nord offers the pedal-down style of string resonance on all the current models that have piano functions, including the least expensive Electro 3. Nord offers the pedal-up-key-down style only on their higher end models.

In terms of how the sound has to be processed, I think the difference can be summed up this way: On a model with no resonance features at all, there is only one way a middle C will sound (at a given velocity). On a model with pedal-down resonance, there are two sounds that can be generated by hitting that middle C... the pedal up version, and the pedal down version. For a "pedal-up but other-keys-down" implementation, there are hundreds of possible sounds that middle C can make, as it will sound different depending on which key (or 2 keys, or 3 keys...) your other hand is holding down at the time. So the first kind of resonance can be implemented simply by doubling the number of samples used. But since it's not practical to create samples for every possible variation, the second kind needs an algorithm that can essentially generate numerous variations from a smaller number of actual samples. I imagine there are ways to cheat, and not necessarily create a completely different resonance sound for each different combination of held keys. But it's still more complicated than the first scenario. This is probably one of the areas where modeling makes more sense than manipulating samples.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 10:05 AM

i didn't read the specs but i think you wouldn't want to overly handicap the 150 and 350 technology wise. i don't know casio's sweet spot of the market but i think lightweight boards that will travel are an important part of their niche? the 150 and 350 will weigh about 25 lbs. The 750 and 850 are wood encased- 75-80lbs?

i know there is a $600 spread between the 150 and the 850- so they can't offer the same features, but seems like you ought to make the 350 an upgrade that captures the most sought after sound characteristics. perhaps all the resonance stuff doesn't matter if you are playing at a party or whatever- people don't really pick it up. and none of these will most likely be detailed enough to record. But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

just a thought
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 10:30 AM

My guess would have been that there would be a low end and high end portable model (in the 150 and 350), and a low end and a high end in-home model (i.e. basically the same models in furniture would be the 750 and 850, with the latter enclosure being more substantial as well)... but it doesn't appear that they went quite that way.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By: bfb
But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

Oh, please! Having just ranted about Kawai needlessly crippling their portable DPs, don't tell me I'm going to have to do the same thing regarding these new Casios!

There are plenty of players who use these instruments beyond just bashing out a few tunes at parties. Subtlety isn't confined to the parlor! It really irks me when manufacturers refuse to offer portable users a fully refined model. As it states in the blurb for the 850, the functionality just needs to be unlocked. Well, unlock it for the 350, already!!!
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: bfb
But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

Oh, please! Having just ranted about Kawai needlessly crippling their portable DPs, don't tell me I'm going to have to do the same thing regarding these new Casios!

There are plenty of players who use these instruments beyond just bashing out a few tunes at parties. Subtlety isn't confined to the parlor! It really irks me when manufacturers refuse to offer portable users a fully refined model. As it states in the blurb for the 850, the functionality just needs to be unlocked. Well, unlock it for the 350, already!!!


I couldn't have said it better myself, Voxpops!

+1 thumb
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 11:10 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
So the first kind of resonance can be implemented simply by doubling the number of samples used. But since it's not practical to create samples for every possible variation, the second kind needs an algorithm that can essentially generate numerous variations from a smaller number of actual samples. I imagine there are ways to cheat, and not necessarily create a completely different resonance sound for each different combination of held keys. But it's still more complicated than the first scenario. This is probably one of the areas where modeling makes more sense than manipulating samples.

Even the response of the "pedal sympathetic resonance" varies with what is being played, so a single algorithmic approach might be best for both it and the "key sympathetic resonance" (though I do agree that sampled "pedal sympathetic resonance" can sound quite realistic). Ideally the algorithm would accurately reflect how the real piano behaves, and not just be a cheap reverb effect *cough*Yamaha*cough*.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: bfb
But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

Oh, please! Having just ranted about Kawai needlessly crippling their portable DPs, don't tell me I'm going to have to do the same thing regarding these new Casios!

There are plenty of players who use these instruments beyond just bashing out a few tunes at parties. Subtlety isn't confined to the parlor! It really irks me when manufacturers refuse to offer portable users a fully refined model. As it states in the blurb for the 850, the functionality just needs to be unlocked. Well, unlock it for the 350, already!!!


methinks i struck a raw nerve.

put me in the camp that doesn't understand the magic of putting your best digital technology in a wooden case to sit in the den, and handicapping that which could travel outside the home (where having the product seen in public might be the BEST FREE ADVERTISING YOU COULD GET?). but then i do own an acoustic too...
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 12:18 PM

Originally Posted By: bfb


methinks i struck a raw nerve.

You did indeed! There is false logic at work here. These companies are paranoid that they need to differentiate sufficiently between their own models. What they don't get is that - in Casio's case - the competition is not between the PX-350 and PX-850, but between the PX-350 and the Roland RD-300NX (or FP-whatever), and between the PX-850 and the Roland HP5xx. If you're in the market for a portable device, you're not going to be interested in hauling half-a-pallet's-worth of chipboard! There is no need to cripple the PX-350 for fear of damaging the sales of the 850.

Likewise, the market for the Kawai ES-7 is different from that for the CA-95. The extended action of the new CAs is sufficient in itself to differentiate the models. That would be impractical in a portable device, but the sound engine is critical to the success of both. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: stop forcing customers to use software to make up for inadequate sound engines! Your top models are barely good enough as it is - there is no excuse for even lower standards.

Quote:
put me in the camp that doesn't understand the magic of putting your best digital technology in a wooden case to sit in the den, and handicapping that which could travel outside the home (where having the product seen in public might be the BEST FREE ADVERTISING YOU COULD GET?). but then i do own an acoustic too...

I couldn't agree more. I posted something almost identical a couple of years ago when the MP6 was launched with a lesser engine to the beautiful but hugely heavy (and therefore not readily portable) MP10. Do these guys listen? No, sadly not. They'd obviously rather have so-so sounds heard on stages around the world than interfere with their precious marketing segmentation.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Do these guys listen? No, sadly not. They'd obviously rather have so-so sounds heard on stages around the world than interfere with their precious marketing segmentation.

When I worked in the electronics industry the people in sales had much more say over the products than us engineers. We had all sorts of software options that required expensive "keys" to unlock (lame, but better than requiring an "upgraded" hardware platform to get the desired functionality). And when I was leaving it seemed like the supply chain people were taking over. Too many cooks with their own fiefdoms to defend. Mix in the brain dead upper management team and you get a perfect storm of stupid (and as Ron White says, you can't fix stupid). Literally any idiot can run a fundamentally undemocratic organization for a while. It's a wonder that any product makes sense.

We can harangue James and Mike until we're blue in the face, but our strong desires and constructive criticisms (if passed up the ladder) still must run a somewhat nonsensical gauntlet before they have a chance of making any difference at all.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 01:14 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: bfb


methinks i struck a raw nerve.

You did indeed! There is false logic at work here. These companies are paranoid that they need to differentiate sufficiently between their own models. What they don't get is that - in Casio's case - the competition is not between the PX-350 and PX-850, but between the PX-350 and the Roland RD-300NX (or FP-whatever), and between the PX-850 and the Roland HP5xx. If you're in the market for a portable device, you're not going to be interested in hauling half-a-pallet's-worth of chipboard! There is no need to cripple the PX-350 for fear of damaging the sales of the 850.

Likewise, the market for the Kawai ES-7 is different from that for the CA-95. The extended action of the new CAs is sufficient in itself to differentiate the models. That would be impractical in a portable device, but the sound engine is critical to the success of both. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: stop forcing customers to use software to make up for inadequate sound engines! Your top models are barely good enough as it is - there is no excuse for even lower standards.

Quote:
put me in the camp that doesn't understand the magic of putting your best digital technology in a wooden case to sit in the den, and handicapping that which could travel outside the home (where having the product seen in public might be the BEST FREE ADVERTISING YOU COULD GET?). but then i do own an acoustic too...

I couldn't agree more. I posted something almost identical a couple of years ago when the MP6 was launched with a lesser engine to the beautiful but hugely heavy (and therefore not readily portable) MP10. Do these guys listen? No, sadly not. They'd obviously rather have so-so sounds heard on stages around the world than interfere with their precious marketing segmentation.


I guess... what i'm NOT appreciating... is that the heaviness of real piano actions is what defines the home console from the performance board that travels. i keep thinking that someone should create a modular design. a performance board weighing 30-40 pounds that can be "parked" in an attractive cabinet with built in speakers for the home. and then easily removed to travel. But i guess you couldn't do that and get the best action- you'd compromise in favor of either the light travel board or the heavy home console. or maybe you could have plug and play actions- one for travel and one for home?

just thinking...
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 01:21 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
We can harangue James and Mike until we're blue in the face, but our strong desires and constructive criticisms (if passed up the ladder) still must run a somewhat nonsensical gauntlet before they have a chance of making any difference at all.

Oh, I agree entirely. I'm not wanting to harangue either of these two great guys. After all, it wasn't Kawai that put James in the "firing line," but his own desire to share his enthusiasm. But James (and I suspect Mike) knows what gigging musicians want and need. The very fact that he upgraded his Electro 2 to a 3 was presumably in a search for the very best sounds he could get in a lightweight package. That is the same for all of us who need to perform peripatetically. I would suspect also that these guys are fully aware of the gauntlet that must be run as feedback is passed up the chain. But unless we make the noise, nothing even stands a chance of being acted upon.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 02:00 PM

I think the key word here is marketing. Since Casio has traditionally been at the lower end of the price scale, most of their painos have offered similar features at lower price points. Now they seem to want to differentiate their lower end models from their upper range models and offer the 256 poly and sympat resonance on the high end PX-850. They still haven't announced the Celviano line yet and what's going on there. It still seems to come down to Casio holding the line on price, but offering something reasonably competitive for less. If Casio were to go toe to toe with Roland, Korg, and Kawai on price, wouldn't there still be resistance to spending that kind of money for a Casio given their history?
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t

If Casio were to go toe to toe with Roland, Korg, and Kawai on price, wouldn't there still be resistance to spending that kind of money for a Casio given their history?


sure.... and that doesn't assume that "history" equates with something perjorative. Casio delivers solid value for its price. But it is in the "value" segment.

i would always expect to pay less for an american car vs a european car- feature for feature, even though american cars are very competitive these days. And there isn't anything Ford or GM can do to change my mind on that. And that's probably true with Casio- fairly or unfairly. i guess that's why we see "Privia" and "Celviano"- as an attempt to get the next generation to look at those as specific brands, not as Casio brands.. Perhaps, that will allow them to go head to head with Rol-maha on both price and technology.

Me- i love Casio. my first digital piano was a Casio in the mid 80's. real cheese but great fun to play.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bfb
Rol-maha


I think I prefer Yama-land.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 02:54 PM

Kawamaland.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/17/12 04:22 PM

Im interested in the PX 850 even though I find it to be very unattractive...
Posted by: Rhodie73

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/18/12 11:53 PM

Sorry for coming to the party late, but I must say that this could be very promising for Casio! Like many have said here, Mike Martin please pass our suggestions on to the developers over at Casio. Please have them really program professional dynamic electric pianos (Rhodes and Wurlitzers) better than what was previously available. I've noticed that there are the same number of other tones (250) as previous Privia models (330 and the PX-3). I hope that you guys take advantage of your new AiR chip and simply don't do a rehash of previous samples.

Also Mike would it be possible to suggest opening up and unlocking some of those new parameters available like sympathetic resonance and possible key off? Please don't skimp on features just to protect sales from a higher end model. Make the PX-350 be the higher portable stage model with Casio's top features so that more professional musicians would see that you guys mean business and really consider using your keyboards on stage live.

Mike would it be possible to unlock the sympathic resonance and key off effect (while still keeping the damper resonance) in the PX-350 and make it compete with the likes of the big boys ex: Yamaha, Roland, Kawai and Korg? I'm sorry for the ranting on, but like many others on this forum, I see the potential of these new Privias and am really considering one when they are available.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 12:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
Make the PX-350 be the higher portable stage model with Casio's top features so that more professional musicians would see that you guys mean business and really consider using your keyboards on stage live.

+1 thumb
Posted by: rnaple

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
... Mike Martin please pass our suggestions...Also Mike would it be possible to suggest...
Mike would it be possible to ...


Mike is hiding in the corner...begging God to forgive him for posting on this forum.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 06:59 AM

Marketing wise (since it's those guys that seem to decide and spoil everything anyway , together with the management team ) it would be an idea to have the 'unlock' features as a paid upgrade option. You buy px350 without resonance and purchase an upgrade pack for $$ to unlock extra features. Similar in the way that many software packages are sold. Same beast, just need some unlock codes to get acces to some extra features.

Heck, these instruments are sort of computers with software anyway - so nothing new there..as long as the same chipsets are used over the whole range (very likely). I would say do yourself a favor and put the same electronics and software (firmware) in the whole range and differentiate between them (only) through there hardware features. Cabinet, speaker system, keybed, connections , stuff like that...

Just an idea ; do you get a downsized (feature poor) version of your operating system, when you buy a cheaper model computer ?. E.g. all Macs come with a full Osx from Mac mini, to octacore Mac Pro - they are differentiated in hardware specs and options. DP makers do just that; you get a lower model - than the machine will also have a light version of the OS letting you only use email and nothing else. Get the idea...
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 07:48 AM

Whilst we would all like the 350 to have the same feature set as the 850 - I can see there's a problem in trying to distinguish between the myriad of almost identical machines - in particular I can see them wanting to hang on to some of these features for an updated PX3, which I would expect to be announced in a year.

Question for Mike: I haven't tried line out from my 330, but there have been comments here about its implementation being a bit useless with the requirement for a headphone jack to cancel the onboard speakers and the addition of a headphone jack altering the sound sent to line out. Has this been corrected?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 07:59 AM

I think you guys may be taking the word "unlock" a little too literally.

i.e. the new "AIR" sound engine may have the ability to do something, but the key to "unlocking" the functionality may not be as simple as deciding to enable it; it may require additional hardware be installed as well.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 11:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Vectistim
Question for Mike: I haven't tried line out from my 330, but there have been comments here about its implementation being a bit useless with the requirement for a headphone jack to cancel the on-board speakers and the addition of a headphone jack altering the sound sent to line out. Has this been corrected?


Corrected? That makes the assumption that it isn't done that way on purpose. cool The majority of players I speak to prefer to have the built-in speakers ON even when the Privia is amplified elsewhere. Why? They like to feel the vibration coming from within the Privia cabinet itself. I've had number of people tell me that they preferred the PX-330 of the PX-3 for this reason alone. So to answer your question, the PX-350 works exactly the same way as the PX-330 in this regard.

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I think you guys may be taking the word "unlock" a little too literally.
i.e. the new "AIR" sound engine may have the ability to do something, but the key to "unlocking" the functionality may not be as simple as deciding to enable it; it may require additional hardware be installed as well.


My fault for using that word but Scott is correct, this isn't just a software "switch".

Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 11:37 AM

Vect:
there have been comments here about its implementation being a bit useless with the requirement for [1] a headphone jack to cancel the on-board speakers and [2] the addition of a headphone jack altering the sound sent to line out. Has this been corrected?

Mike:
Corrected? That makes the assumption that it isn't done that way on purpose.

Does that also apply to [2] If so, will it remain that way?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 11:49 AM

The only way to disable the speakers on the PX-350 is by plugging (something) into the headphone jack. Does that answer your question?
Posted by: toddy

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 12:05 PM

Hi Mike. No, that answers point [1] - which is clear (that is the same system as on my DP). But it does not address point [2], mentioned above, which would perhaps affect the line out's usefulness, as Vectistim suggested.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The only way to disable the speakers on the PX-350 is by plugging (something) into the headphone jack. Does that answer your question?

As I understand it, the issue is that, when you plug something into the headphone jack (whether for the purpose of using headphones, or just to silence the speaker), at least some Privia models add an EQ to the sound that is optimized for headphones, and that EQ is applied even at the Line Outs. Ideally, the Line Out should be unaltered... there is no reason I can imagine for wanting a headphone-optimized EQ to ever appear at the line out.

It becomes an issue if you prefer to silence the speakers during amplified live performance, since the signal being sent to the house is pre-equalized for headphones, and therefore no longer its best. I happen to be one of the people who prefers the speakers to be on for the reason you mentioned (and it is one reason I bemoan the loss of the PX330 speakers on the otherwise far superior PX3), but there are people who would rather turn the speakers off for one reason or another.

It also would be an issue if you are recording your performance into a DAW or whatever, and have chosen to silence the board's internal speakers with the headphone jack insertion (perhaps you're recording late at night). You can't get a "neutral" signal to record if anything is plugged into the headphone jack.

So there are numerous downsides to altering the line out EQ depending on whether or not the headphone jack is activated, and no upside. I suspect it was just an unfortunate by-product of the way it is engineered, that it can't apply the optimized headphone EQ to the EQ jacks without also applying it to the Line Out jacks, that whatever it does in one place is necessarily duplicated at the other.

If that's the case, and they can still make software mods to the new models, the easiest way to address it might be a menu setting that allows someone to disable the headphone EQ, so that even if something is plugged into the headphone jack, no such EQ is engaged. That way, although you lose the headphone optimized EQ in the phones, you still get the desired neutral sound out the Line Out, even when something is plugged into the headphone jack.

BTW, the Yamaha NP-V80 has a feature where you can select from 5 different EQ settings: two designed for optimum sound through the internal speakers, one designed for headphones, and two designed for use with external speakers. In frustrating Yamaha manner, however, even their own tech support could not tell me the difference between the two external settings, or even whether any setting corresponded to "flat" (i.e. what would be the most neutral to use, independent of playback system, i.e. for recording).
Posted by: Kbeaumont

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 01:51 PM

Mike on page E-7 of the PX-330 manual there is a warning:

Quote:
The Digital Piano automatically adjust output for headphone output, this will cause a change in output quality of the Digital Piano Line out and L/Mono outputs


I have found it seems to be more than just eq, the stereo image also changes.

Using a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter inserted into the headphone jack isn't the issue, the issue is the output quality of the Line out jacks is altered. If they still have that "feature" its truly sad, because this has been brought up numerous times on various forums.


Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 01:53 PM

AnotherScott,
I honestly don't know how or if EQ is implemented this way on the new PX-_50 series. Clearly I missed this being brought up as an issue previously with the current line and I've never investigated this myself. I'm traveling a lot over the next couple weeks. Hopefully around the end of the month when I'm back in the office with a PX-350 prototype, I can look into this further.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/19/12 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
there is no reason I can imagine for wanting a headphone-optimized EQ to ever appear at the line out.


It would make sense to to have the option to optimise the line outs for headphones if using a headphone amp connected to the line outs. I think most folks who were using a quality headphone amp would prefer to use the line outs.

As a PX-330 owner I agree with everything else you said though.

Greg.
Posted by: jrcallan

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/20/12 06:46 PM

Does the 330/350 not have a "local control" command to silence the on-board speakers? My Casio AP-45 console does. When I'm using a software piano through a midi interface, I don't want to hear the piano's speakers.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/20/12 07:00 PM

@jrcallan: Yes, it does, however that's irrelevant to the problem being discussed. We want to be able to connect the DP up to external equipment, without having the speakers on, and without having the headphone optimisation. Disabling "local control" disables the internal sounds entirely, so it's not a solution.
You could simply turn the volume down to zero to achieve the same result. smile (however disabling local control seems to be important for me when using software pianos and using USB MIDI - I get too much latency otherwise. It shouldn't be like that - it's a problem IMHO)

Greg.
Posted by: bluebilly

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/21/12 04:58 PM

I've only just caught up with this thread. I'm particularly busy elsewhere these days. This new Casio range is exciting, I've always liked the Privia PX-8xxx range, everything but the wobbly keys. As I'm in "change my piano" mood at the moment I'm looking forward to trying out the new pianos here in the UK. If Casio have sorted the keyboard, I'll be donating my CN33 to one of my granddaughters and getting one of the new Casio's.
Posted by: jarosujo

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/21/12 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: bluebilly
I'll be donating my CN33 to one of my granddaughters and getting one of the new Casio's.

You think it's upgrade compared to CN33 ?
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/21/12 05:23 PM

Yeah, that sounds like a mistake. I'd suggest getting the casio and giving whichever piano you like less to your granddaughters (or the other way around, depending on how important you think their piano experience is). Or better yet, wait until you can actually play these Casios before forming an opinion on them.

Upgrades notwithstanding, it's unlikely that the new casios will really be on par with your kawai in most ways.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 03:39 AM

Yep, but if (that's a big if) the keybed is better than before and comparable to the KAWAI , then KAWAI is in trouble I guess. Still , I doubt the keybed has the same quality, durability and QC. Let's wait and see...
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 07:15 AM

Originally Posted By: JFP
Yep, but if (that's a big if) the keybed is better than before...

They already have three sensors, graded hammer weights, and fake ivory/ebony tops in the PX-3. So my bet is the all new! key action in these 4 models isn't all that new.

Can anyone comment on the PX-3 action, specifically in comparison to the PX-130/330 action?
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 07:46 AM

I know the previous Casio three sensor ivory keybeds , but they are not on par with the RH (II).

Although they are very (!) lightweight - Casio deserves the term portable , as with the fatar tp100 based pianos (sp8, numa piano etc). For the mp6 es7 and phaIII based Roland's I' m not so convinced (still bulky to carry around). So if they come with a lightweight revised keybed at Casio that is really as good as RH / PHAIII, that would be a winner...

My guess is you can't have both - very lighweight and the best piano keybed - and there will always be a trade-off.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster

They already have three sensors, graded hammer weights, and fake ivory/ebony tops in the PX-3. So my bet is the all new! key action in these 4 models isn't all that new.

Actions can easily have same # sensors, gradedness, and matte finish and be totally different (in important ways we don't have buzzwords for). So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Can anyone comment on the PX-3 action, specifically in comparison to the PX-130/330 action?

I am quite sure Mike Martin from Casio has confirmed that all three keybeds are identical except for the matte finish of the PX3.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 07:56 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I am quite sure Mike Martin from Casio has confirmed that all three keybeds are identical except for the matte finish of the PX3.

Thanks!

My bet that this is just the PX-3 action is tad cynical, but in this market (as Lily Tomlin said) "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up."
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 08:23 AM

At least Casio did not over-sell the PX-3 action as new... as far as I can remember, they never claimed it was "all new," the only new feature they claimed for it was the ivory finish.

Posted by Mike in another forum: "The new models have both a new action and a new piano sound."

and in another forum, in response to a question of "I know the ebony keys on the new Privias are totally new, but I'm wondering if the ivory on the whites is the same as the PX-3 (and the 830, I think it was) or new as well." he answered "All new. :-)"

and in this forum, "The key bed has also been improved, while I'm not an engineer and I haven't had an opportunity to take one apart the action simply feels better and yes there is less side to side movement. The new 'Ebony and Ivory' texture to the keys is also a huge improvement, much better than the text we've done on the AP-420, AP-620 and PX-3." This was in the "P95 and Casio PX-x30 series owners:-will you upgrade?" thread.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 08:35 AM

Let's just wait and see when the unbiased user reports start to dripple in. Can't wait. Unfortunately this will still only be first impressions; how the keybed holds on the long run and when it has been a bit mistreated en moved around (portables ) will take a while longer to judge. First owners of the new series , please write a review !
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 09:53 AM

RE: Brislin's improvisation demo, IMHO it actually does have places where he holds notes for a reasonably long time, especially in the bass, which I think is where it matters most. (still not as long as I'd like, but it's not as bad as I was expecting)

I think I can hear the richer sympathetic resonance - it sounds good.

Greg.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 11:14 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Posted by Mike in another forum: "The new models have both a new action and a new piano sound."

Cool! I didn't know there was that much info regarding the new keys out there. Thanks anotherscott!
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
RE: Brislin's improvisation demo, IMHO it actually does have places where he holds notes for a reasonably long time, especially in the bass, which I think is where it matters most. (still not as long as I'd like, but it's not as bad as I was expecting)

I think I can hear the richer sympathetic resonance - it sounds good.

OK, you've got me going back and listening to it again too.

From the low note sustain it seems like he's just mashing and holding the pedal down most of the time - agreed?

If so, I'm not hearing much in the way of sympathetic resonance. It almost sounds like he's using the sostenuto pedal for the bass notes because the mid and upper notes aren't running together like a watercolor left out in the rain (like a real AP would behave). And I'm hearing fairly short decay times on those low notes. As well as kind of vaguely fake tinkly sounding upper mids.

I'll reserve final judgment until someone sends me a DPBSD MP3, but my enthusiasm for this product release is rapidly waning.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 12:17 PM

dewster, according to Mike, smpathetic reasonance and the 256 polyphony are reserved for the PX-850. Brislin was playing a PX-350 which will not have it. He did also mention the piano sample is new but recorded off the same piano as the Pxx-30 series. The sustain of the sample is supposed to be substantially longer. You will have to find someone with a PX-850 to submit a DPBSD to hear the sympathetic resonance. These new models should be better given the price increase.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 01:55 PM

I'll end up A/B'ing them at the GC/SA in the fall and decide if I upgrade. The main thing I want to hear is how different the sounds are.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 03:12 PM

Are these the four new Casio keyboards?

Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
dewster, according to Mike, smpathetic reasonance and the 256 polyphony are reserved for the PX-850.

I'm looking at CASIO's page for the PX-150WE HERE and it says:

"For further realism a new Damper Resonance simulator provides the rich sound of the strings when the sustain pedal is used."

Are they not talking about sympathetic resonance?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Are they not talking about sympathetic resonance?

I think this may get back to what we were talking about earlier, with the two kinds of sympathetic resonance (pedal-down; pedal-up-keys-down), and like Nord, they may make just one available in the basic model and both kinds available in the more advanced models.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 04:59 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I think this may get back to what we were talking about earlier, with the two kinds of sympathetic resonance (pedal-down; pedal-up-keys-down), and like Nord, they may make just one available in the basic model and both kinds available in the more advanced models.

Perhaps Mike could chime in and clear this up.

I think of pedal sympathetic resonance as the main one, so I would expect ALL of the models that mention "sympathetic resonance" or "damper resonance" (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) in their ad copy to have some kind of simulation of that, though perhaps better done on the higher end chipboard offerings.

Key sympathetic resonance or "string resonance" is implemented much less often, and is so subtle it doesn't concern me all that much, though it is certainly nice to have.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 06:11 PM

but some models have expanded capabilities of the AiR sound source with up to 256 notes of polyphony, sympathetic resonance and cabinet simulation.

The above is from the press release and it clearly says that only some models have sympathetic resonance and the higher polyphony (just present in the higher priced models). The lower end models just get the keybed improvement, new piano sample, and AiR sound source. There is a damper resonance simulator but it is not being called sympathetic resonance in the press release or specs. All Casios in the past have had some kind of circuit that simulates open strings when the pedal is down. The Casio I have has Acoustic Resonance. It simulates off a DSP setting. The current Privias have this also--Linear Morphing.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/22/12 06:13 PM

@Dewster:
When he plays some of the upper chords, it rings out in a nice way that I haven't quite heard on my PX-330. (I didn't notice anything special in the low notes - all I meant regarding the low notes is that he held them for an appreciable amount of time)
Not sure about the heavy sustain pedal use - if/when I take another listen I'll report back.

Greg.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/23/12 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I think this may get back to what we were talking about earlier, with the two kinds of sympathetic resonance (pedal-down; pedal-up-keys-down), and like Nord, they may make just one available in the basic model and both kinds available in the more advanced models.

Perhaps Mike could chime in and clear this up.

I think of pedal sympathetic resonance as the main one, so I would expect ALL of the models that mention "sympathetic resonance" or "damper resonance" (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) in their ad copy to have some kind of simulation of that, though perhaps better done on the higher end chipboard offerings.

Key sympathetic resonance or "string resonance" is implemented much less often, and is so subtle it doesn't concern me all that much, though it is certainly nice to have.


I'll do my best to clarify.
All new models have a new "damper resonance" simulation. It is a DRAMATICALLY better simulation than what Casio calls "acoustic resonance" in the current models. This new damper resonance simulation as the name implies can be heard when the sustain pedal is used.

The PX-850 also features a seperate effect called sympathetic resonance. To be clear, some of the information coming from Tokyo calls this "string resonance". As on a real piano this allows some notes to sympathetically vibrate the "strings" on others. As an example if you played and held a C Major chord until it nearly faded out, then played a C bass note, you'd hear that C major chord resonate a bit.

The two effects are similar but one works only when the sustain (damper) pedal is used the other is working all the time based on what is being played and which frequencies will sympathetically resonate others.

Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/23/12 10:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
I'll do my best to clarify...

Mike, thanks very much for clearing that up!

Is the "damper resonance" adjustable by the user in any way? Often one is given a depth, or mix level adjustment, which I usually turn up because real pianos resonate all over the place.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/23/12 11:32 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
[quote=Mike_Martin]
Is the "damper resonance" adjustable by the user in any way? Often one is given a depth, or mix level adjustment, which I usually turn up because real pianos resonate all over the place.


Not on the PX-150 and PX-750. The PX-850 does have this ability. Not sure yet about the PX-350. wink
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/23/12 09:46 PM

@Dewster: I think you're probably right that he's using the sustain pedal a lot, however I can still hear the low notes pretty clearly. (it's a far cry from a DPBSD though ;^) Usually when we complain about the demos being too busy/fast I agree, but this particular one isn't bothering me all that much. If Casio ever puts unlooped samples into a DP, I'm sure they'll make a song and dance about it, anyway. (like Roland have with their SN demo)

Greg.
Posted by: Qubix

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/26/12 11:28 PM

Anyone know when the PX-850 is going to be available in stores in Europe?
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 06:11 AM

Greetings all!

I just found a new in-depth review of the upcoming Casio Privia PX-150 & PX-350 digital pianos at the following blog:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/

I'm now looking forward more than ever to test-playing one of these new instruments.... thumb

Cheers,

Kevin
Posted by: goodkeys

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 08:01 AM

Thanks for the link. In the review it states that they are "due out in approx late September"
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: KLSinCT
I just found a new in-depth review of the upcoming Casio Privia PX-150 & PX-350 digital pianos at the following blog:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/

Thanks!

Kind of empty review though. Most of the info seems gleaned from press releases and other assorted data on the web. And no negative comments? I've dinked around on the PX130/330 in the past and remember many of the extra voices as being rather poorly done (severe stretching & looping IIRC). So other than maybe reading tons of his reviews and getting a sense for the usefulness of his picks, I'm not seeing much value add here.

Then I hit the end of the review and see that he's a seller. So much for writing his blog primarily for the love of music and to help my inner soul, dude's after my credit card!
Posted by: Lefty Chev

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: KLSinCT
I just found a new in-depth review of the upcoming Casio Privia PX-150 & PX-350 digital pianos at the following blog:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/

Thanks!

Kind of empty review though. Most of the info seems gleaned from press releases and other assorted data on the web. And no negative comments? I've dinked around on the PX130/330 in the past and remember many of the extra voices as being rather poorly done (severe stretching & looping IIRC). So other than maybe reading tons of his reviews and getting a sense for the usefulness of his picks, I'm not seeing much value add here.

Then I hit the end of the review and see that he's a seller. So much for writing his blog primarily for the love of music and to help my inner soul, dude's after my credit card!


He recommends every product he sells and does not recommend any product he doesn't sell, and he's really not all that transparent about what he sells. From what I'd gleaned, he sells Kawai and Casio and his "reviews" continually push people towards those. I have never seen him review a Roland or Yamaha product and recommend it. He will go so far as to say that they're nice, but for much less you can get a Casio and to contact him to find out how to get the best price. *wink*
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 10:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Lefty Chev
He recommends every product he sells and does not recommend any product he doesn't sell, and he's really not all that transparent about what he sells. From what I'd gleaned, he sells Kawai and Casio and his "reviews" continually push people towards those. I have never seen him review a Roland or Yamaha product and recommend it. He will go so far as to say that they're nice, but for much less you can get a Casio and to contact him to find out how to get the best price. *wink*

Interesting. Though near the bottom of the page he does give a "I DO NOT recommend" to the Adagio MGDP8820. I've never seen one, but this is probably akin to shooting fish in a barrel. Throws the review police off a bit I suppose.
Posted by: Brian Lucas

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Hmm.. I might actually buy one of these. My piano teacher swears against Casio because she thinks they are "cheap foreign junk"..but I think they are making strides with the Privia line. I had my sights set on a Roland F-120 but I might give this stuff a shot.
Your teacher probably has this bias because of the past. I always say that Roland and Yamaha have come down to the consumer (cheaper) keyboards, and Casio is coming up from those into the more pro keyboards. Casio isn't the cheap little keyboards you got when you were 5 anymore. In the songwriting world, I'm seeing more Privias at writing sessions and coffeehouses, mainly because of their reduced weight. I'm interested in seeing what these new models are like in sound and feel. The Privias were ok, but still falling behind similarly priced Yamahas in sound quality, in my opinion. But no doubt that Casio is trying to get further into the mid-level keyboards.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 06:21 PM

If one is interested only in acoustic piano simulation and will do more than 95% of playing through headphones, is there any reason to shell out the extra money for the PX-350 instead of taking the less expensive PX-150? I'm not cheap -- far from it -- but I can't tell from what's been said so far what the PX-350 would give me (that I want) that's not available on the PX-150.

Am I missing something?
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 06:26 PM

Casio isn't the company it used to be. They have spent a lot of money to prop up their musical instruments division. I don't know who runs it, but it's not someone from microwave ovens making decisions about musical instruments. I believe they are aiming to deliver a competitive product for less money and increase market share. They will probably never have the image of Roland, Kawai, Korg, or Yahama but they not content to be the laughing stock of the industry either. Those days appear to be over at Casio.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
If one is interested only in acoustic piano simulation and will do more than 95% of playing through headphones, is there any reason to shell out the extra money for the PX-350 instead of taking the less expensive PX-150? I'm not cheap -- far from it -- but I can't tell from what's been said so far what the PX-350 would give me (that I want) that's not available on the PX-150.

Am I missing something?
Just like before, it's about whether you will benefit from the larger feature set of the PX-350. More connections, more instruments, more on-board recording capability. The piano sound & keyboard are the same.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 07:20 PM

Thanks, Sam. If I get one, it will be strictly as a travel practice instrument. I don't think I need anything but the piano sounds and keyboard, and if they're identical in the two, I'll probably go for the less expensive choice. For once. smile
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/28/12 10:51 PM

For your narrow purposes, you are probably right and can save the money on the PX-150. In our store, the other group we will focus on is beginners on a budget.

But for most adults wanting a portable, the cheap price for the extras on the PX-350 is almost a no-brainer. For gigging musicians on a budget, it's feature set is incredibly attractive. For teens, the extras make it 10x more fun to explore pop music with.

Mostly, I can't wait to hear the new piano sound and feel the new action for myself.
Posted by: Qubix

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/29/12 08:09 AM

Again, anyone know when the PX-850 comes out?
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/29/12 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Lefty Chev
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: KLSinCT
I just found a new in-depth review of the upcoming Casio Privia PX-150 & PX-350 digital pianos at the following blog:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/

Thanks!

Kind of empty review though. Most of the info seems gleaned from press releases and other assorted data on the web. And no negative comments? I've dinked around on the PX130/330 in the past and remember many of the extra voices as being rather poorly done (severe stretching & looping IIRC). So other than maybe reading tons of his reviews and getting a sense for the usefulness of his picks, I'm not seeing much value add here.

Then I hit the end of the review and see that he's a seller. So much for writing his blog primarily for the love of music and to help my inner soul, dude's after my credit card!


He recommends every product he sells and does not recommend any product he doesn't sell, and he's really not all that transparent about what he sells. From what I'd gleaned, he sells Kawai and Casio and his "reviews" continually push people towards those. I have never seen him review a Roland or Yamaha product and recommend it. He will go so far as to say that they're nice, but for much less you can get a Casio and to contact him to find out how to get the best price. *wink*


+1 ; he probably just doesn't prefer the Yamaha tone as much as the others. It is always "Yamaha is nice but for $xxx more you can get the XXXX model which features"
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/29/12 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
If one is interested only in acoustic piano simulation and will do more than 95% of playing through headphones, is there any reason to shell out the extra money for the PX-350 instead of taking the less expensive PX-150? I'm not cheap -- far from it -- but I can't tell from what's been said so far what the PX-350 would give me (that I want) that's not available on the PX-150.

Am I missing something?


azpianodude in his review said the PX350 has 4 speakers vs 2 on the PX150; but I have not seen that it has 4 speakers anywhere else, and given the output watts are the same I have a hard time believing this.
Mike from Casio, could you confirm whether there are 4 speakers?

I purchased the PX130 in April for $375 as opposed to getting the PX330 for $575. I am similar to you- not cheap either, but am reluctant to pay for features that I might have on another board. (i.e. more Rhodes and B3 sounds on my Juno Gi)

I find that 3 acoustic piano sounds and the one rhodes on the PX130 are fine for me, but if I find I like sounds that are not on both I might be inclined to go for the PX350
Posted by: Aidan

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/29/12 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Qubix
Again, anyone know when the PX-850 comes out?


I thought all this lot was hitting the stores in September but I'm sure Mike will correct me if not.

I've spent a great deal of this afternoon playing a PX-320 through my studio monitors (with the internal speakers still active too) and I'm finding I'm liking the set-up more and more.

It's by no means a perfect piano sound but unlike a lot of the other lightweight DPs I've tried (e.g. Yamaha P95, Roland FP4), the action feels nicely balanced and "dig in-able" and the bottom end characterful and well defined, albeit lacking a bit in ultimate bass impact.

It's not the DP I'd choose to sit full time in my studio but as a real world gigging machine, this could take some beating. I'm very much looking forward to playing the PX-350 and could very well end up being a customer.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/29/12 02:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Aidan
Originally Posted By: Qubix
Again, anyone know when the PX-850 comes out?


I thought all this lot was hitting the stores in September but I'm sure Mike will correct me if not.

I've spent a great deal of this afternoon playing a PX-320 through my studio monitors (with the internal speakers still active too) and I'm finding I'm liking the set-up more and more.

It's by no means a perfect piano sound but unlike a lot of the other lightweight DPs I've tried (e.g. Yamaha P95, Roland FP4), the action feels nicely balanced and "dig in-able" and the bottom end characterful and well defined, albeit lacking a bit in ultimate bass impact.

It's not the DP I'd choose to sit full time in my studio but as a real world gigging machine, this could take some beating. I'm very much looking forward to playing the PX-350 and could very well end up being a customer.


I tried my 130 with Mackie MR5's for the first time and was quite pleased with the results of using studio monitors as well. I would opt for the same concept as opposed to getting a console
Posted by: mg64

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 07/29/12 04:13 PM


Qubix

The PX-850 is targeted for October.
Posted by: rob755

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 11:39 AM

Hi, Does anyone (Mike M.?) know if the PX-350 will have Hammond clone with user controlled leslie on/off effect like PX-3? Thanks!
Posted by: playliszt

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 11:58 AM

[quote=Possum P95]
...azpianodude in his review said the PX350 has 4 speakers vs 2 on the PX150; but I have not seen that it has 4 speakers anywhere else, and given the output watts are the same I have a hard time believing this.
Mike from Casio, could you confirm whether there are 4 speakers?...[quote=Possum P95]


The 350 specs are here...http://www.casiomusicgear.com/products/menu_privia/PX-350BK
Speaker specs show 4 total:
(13 cm x 6 cm <rectangular>) x 2
Tweeter 5 cm x 2
Amplifiers 8 W + 8 W
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: playliszt
[quote=Possum P95]
...azpianodude in his review said the PX350 has 4 speakers vs 2 on the PX150; but I have not seen that it has 4 speakers anywhere else, and given the output watts are the same I have a hard time believing this.
Mike from Casio, could you confirm whether there are 4 speakers?...[quote=Possum P95]


The 350 specs are here...http://www.casiomusicgear.com/products/menu_privia/PX-350BK
Speaker specs show 4 total:
(13 cm x 6 cm <rectangular>) x 2
Tweeter 5 cm x 2
Amplifiers 8 W + 8 W


This seems to be the same as the 130/330 - my 330 has two small speakers on top facing the player and the two main speakers facing out the back, even though the power is the same.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 12:31 PM

The PX-130 & PX-330 do not have four speakers. The cabinet is simply open in two areas. The new PX-350 has four speakers....the addition of 2 tweeters on the front. The speakers on both the new PX-150 and PX-350 are dramatically different.
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 01:38 PM

Are you sure? PX-330 manual p.57:
Speakers [13cm x 6cm (rectanuglar)] x 2 + o/ 5cm x 2 (Output: 8.0W + 8.0W)
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 02:39 PM

;-)

It's possible I am. I'll try to check into it. Either way, the PX-350 is an entirely different system.
Posted by: RUSS SHETTLE

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 06:24 PM

Wow, this is getting to be one heck of a thread. Got a question for Mike Martin:

The 150 to the 350, similar to the 130 and 330 whereby; they both have the same main core piano sounds and the main difference is all the added voices, bells and whistles? I want to know if the construction quality, mechanics of the action for the 150 is the same as the 350. I only want high quality piano sounds which is why I bought the 130 over the 330.

By the way; Even though I bought a CP5, I still have and love my PX130 and I hate to say that I almost like the action better. I don't intend to sell it. I just wanted a DP that was up in the high-end of the professional stage models. I kind of wish I had waited to try out the 150 first.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: RUSS SHETTLE
The 150 to the 350, similar to the 130 and 330 whereby; they both have the same main core piano sounds and the main difference is all the added voices, bells and whistles? I want to know if the construction quality, mechanics of the action for the 150 is the same as the 350. I only want high quality piano sounds which is why I bought the 130 over the 330.

Yes, I would like to know this too.

Here's hoping the PX-3 reboot (if/when it comes, PX-3.5?) will have all of the updated and unlocked improvements of the PX-850.

Kinda weird how almost every potentially gig-worthy (lightweight & portable) DP is either half broken or dumbed down to the point of worthlessness. Looking at the market you'd almost think there was a worldwide ban on keyboard players in live settings. <Cue avalanche of derogatory pianist jokes>
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Here's hoping the PX-3 reboot (if/when it comes, PX-3.5?) will have all of the updated and unlocked improvements of the PX-850.

I'm sure Mike so regrets using the word "unlocked"... ;-)
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 08:44 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I'm sure Mike so regrets using the word "unlocked"... ;-)

Yeah, he probably didn't intend for it to sound like "nice little DP you got there - shame if compiler directives were to cripple it" but if you are a coder in any sense it's difficult not to read "unlocked features" that way.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/01/12 08:50 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I'm sure Mike so regrets using the word "unlocked"... ;-)

Yeah, he probably didn't intend for it to sound like "nice little DP you got there - shame if compiler directives were to crippled it" but if you are a coder in any sense it's difficult not to read "unlocked features" that way.

I think it was more marketing-speak than tech-speak. You know, more like "putting more RAM into your computer unlocks the power of your pentium processor!" It doesn't mean some ability was intentionally "locked" per se, but rather, with additional hardware, the processor is capable of doing more.

But I agree that, when the next version of a PX-3 appears (i.e. a new "professional, yet portable" model), I hope it will contain the best piano sound Casio has to offer.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/02/12 01:13 PM

Everywhere on the PX-350 spec pages it says "options SP-33 three pedal" but the current model number is SP-32 ... so there's a new attachment for the CS-67 stand, then? (Ah, and then I see CS-67 on one page, and CS-67P on another ... but I think that's the same thing.)
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/02/12 01:27 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Everywhere on the PX-350 spec pages it says "options SP-33 three pedal" but the current model number is SP-32 ... so there's a new attachment for the CS-67 stand, then? (Ah, and then I see CS-67 on one page, and CS-67P on another.)


The new models use the same CS-67 stand. Not sure where the P came from. The SP-33 pedal is new and different than the SP-32
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/02/12 01:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The new models use the same CS-67 stand. Not sure where the P came from.

(3rd line from the bottom here:)
http://www.casiomusicgear.com/products/menu_privia/PX-350BK

Can we get any details on how the action compares on the 350 vs 330? I spent a lot of time looking at the 330 and Yamahas with GHS/GH today. Did Casio reduce key bounce? Move pivot point back? Keys lighter or heavier or about the same?
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/03/12 02:06 AM

It's Mike Martin himself! Posted 3 hours ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc0hl4JnDeM
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/03/12 06:57 AM

If you squint, you can see the PX-150 behind me. cool
Posted by: bsl100

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/03/12 09:36 AM

Is it that lightweight DPs have an effect on the way the keys feel. The Yamaha GH3/GH keys feel more secure and don't move sideways. There is a wobbly effect in the PX330 keys as well as in the Yamaha GHS key action.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/03/12 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: bsl100
Is it that lightweight DPs have an effect on the way the keys feel. The Yamaha GH3/GH keys feel more secure and don't move sideways. There is a wobbly effect in the PX330 keys as well as in the Yamaha GHS key action.


Yeah the P155 keys do, but it also adds keyboard size plus 15 pounds over the P95 (and PX330). I guess we have to wait 2 months to hear end-user reports about 330 vs 350 keys.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/03/12 01:22 PM

I hope a little bit earlier...at least from insiders / beta testers / exhibit visitors.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/03/12 01:22 PM

I hope a little bit earlier...at least from insiders / beta testers / exhibit visitors.
Posted by: mg64

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/04/12 10:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: xorbe

Everywhere on the PX-350 spec pages it says "options SP-33 three pedal" but the current model number is SP-32 ... so there's a new attachment for the CS-67 stand, then? (Ah, and then I see CS-67 on one page, and CS-67P on another.)


The new models use the same CS-67 stand. Not sure where the P came from. The SP-33 pedal is new and different than the SP-32



I will be probably upgrading from the PX 330 to the PX 350.

Mike, would it be possible to use the SP 32 with the PX-350?
Posted by: Qubix

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/04/12 03:00 PM

Originally Posted By: mg64

Qubix

The PX-850 is targeted for October.



Thanks, that's just about the time I'll have the money for it. laugh Hope it's gonna be a nice DP.
Posted by: kmf123kmf

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/05/12 11:23 AM

Hi everyone,

I just found this release from Japan. Looks like, as expected really, Casio is releasing new Celvianos as well. (At least in Japan for now)

http://www.japantoday.com/category/new-products/view/digital-piano-series

I've been lurking this forum for a while now looking for my first DP. Can't wait to hear reviews of these new Casio's once they're out.

-Kevin
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/05/12 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: kmf123kmf
Hi everyone,

I just found this release from Japan. Looks like, as expected really, Casio is releasing new Celvianos as well. (At least in Japan for now)

http://www.japantoday.com/category/new-products/view/digital-piano-series

I've been lurking this forum for a while now looking for my first DP. Can't wait to hear reviews of these new Casio's once they're out.

-Kevin


This is great news....thanks for posting it!

Cheers,

K.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/05/12 01:34 PM

I would like to know more specifics on what has been done to improve the action also. In an earlier post Mike said the action had been improved over the previous models, but could not say what specifically had been done. He also said side to side motion had been reduced. This was a common complaint on the Privia PX-x30 models with keys rubbing against adjacent keys and wobbling. From the sounds of his post the key texture that has been added to all models was also improved. I am looking forward to playing these new models when they come out to see how much better they are. Mike, any chance of getting info from Tokyo on what they did to improve the action?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/05/12 03:20 PM

it's kind of interesting to know from an academic viewpoint, but when you get down to it, all that really matters is getting your own fingers on it!
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/05/12 03:23 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
I would like to know more specifics on what has been done to improve the action also...any chance of getting info from Tokyo on what they did to improve the action?

it's kind of interesting to know from an academic viewpoint, but when you get down to it, all that really matters is getting your own fingers on it!
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/06/12 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: mg64
Mike, would it be possible to use the SP 32 with the PX-350?


This question, and if not, SP-32 goes for $50 street pricing -- will SP-33 retail for the same?
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/06/12 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: mg64
Mike, would it be possible to use the SP 32 with the PX-350?


This question, and if not, SP-32 goes for $50 street pricing -- will SP-33 retail for the same?
I expect a price bump in the wholesale so probably a bump to the street price, too. We'll see where it levels off.
Posted by: kmf123kmf

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/06/12 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By: kmf123kmf
Hi everyone,

I just found this release from Japan. Looks like, as expected really, Casio is releasing new Celvianos as well. (At least in Japan for now)

http://www.japantoday.com/category/new-products/view/digital-piano-series

I've been lurking this forum for a while now looking for my first DP. Can't wait to hear reviews of these new Casio's once they're out.

-Kevin


Gah! Casio is killing me! All the new Celviano's are up on the Japanese site.

http://casio.jp/emi/products/celviano/ (Google Translate does a passable job if you don't read Japanese)

No trace of them in North America or Europe though.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/06/12 08:38 PM

Do a little research here and you'll see the early mentions of PX-135 in Japan...and that model never made it to the US. 10 months later, it's the PX-150!

If I had to guess, I'd hope these models make it hear in 6-7 months at the very earliest. And no doubt with a price increase similar to the new Privias. Make your decisions accordingly. wink
Posted by: kmf123kmf

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/06/12 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL

If I had to guess, I'd hope these models make it hear in 6-7 months at the very earliest. And no doubt with a price increase similar to the new Privias. Make your decisions accordingly. wink


Well, I'm certainly no global marketing expert but I can't understand Casio's logic with keeping the AP-x50 series exclusively for the Japanese market for so long. From what I can tell the AP-x20 series is quite popular in North America and upgrading them would ensure that they stay above the curve in their price category. It also makes for a somewhat baffling situation where their flagship home line will be technically inferior to the new Privias.

One saving grace though, the PX-850 looks to be very close to the Celvianos. Not exactly a stately appearance, but it might suit my particular needs. Guess I'll just have to wait and see when they make it into stores here. smile
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/06/12 09:29 PM

I don't remember when the current AP-x20 was announced in Japan, but it did arrive to Europe 4-5 months before the US. It may be a large scale test market or a throwback to the past when so much tech arrived first in Japan.

There are still boatloads of AP-x20s to sell between now and Christmas. If the PX-850 arrives mid-late Oct, then you're halfway again to NAMM and everybody's new stuff. It's never ending!
Posted by: mg64

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 10:45 AM


The demonstration of the new Privia PX 750. This meeting was held on August 2, 2012.






2012カシオ新製品内覧会 電子ピアノデモンストレーション1
shimayokohama
02/08/2012

Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 01:58 PM

I don't really understand the setting and purpose of this recording. Perhaps someone can explain . By the way, although its my personal opinion I don't really like the looks of the Casios . Still a bit un-stylish and cheap look. Not my cup of tea. I do like the looks of the Kawai CS series and piano cabinets like the LX-15 (Roland) and stage piano's like the MP10. Nice styling and classy looks - not plain bread and butter and pure functional casing. Still a matter of taste...
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 02:55 PM

Yeah, the piano is hidden behind the violin ...

I like that it appears to be a slim model. I can understand how people might want something with more physical presence than this. But the 750 is only going to be ~$800 street price, yeah?
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 03:45 PM

Originally Posted By: JFP
I don't really understand the setting and purpose of this recording. Perhaps someone can explain . By the way, although its my personal opinion I don't really like the looks of the Casios . Still a bit un-stylish and cheap look. Not my cup of tea. I do like the looks of the Kawai CS series and piano cabinets like the LX-15 (Roland) and stage piano's like the MP10. Nice styling and classy looks - not plain bread and butter and pure functional casing. Still a matter of taste...
I personally agree and understand your point, but I have to consider this apples to oranges. The Privia series completely stem from the portable models. The form of the consoles follow the function of the portables. The result is a very affordable piece. An LX-15 is gorgeous...and 9x the price. While not as nice as the CS or LX, Casio's Celviano line has styling very comparable to Yamaha & Roland's other consoles.

An interesting experiment in our store is comparing the Roland F120 vs RP-301. People like the idea of the slimline F120, but a majority are willing to pay the extra ~25% for the RP-301 cabinet even though the features are identical. I had thought people would be more price sensitive but not surprisingly, most people take pride in their digitals and are willing to pay for their preferred style.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 05:55 PM

Well, you put it in your living room right ?! So..
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: JFP
Well, you put it in your living room right ?! So..


Some of us have healthy incomes, but live in small apartments in large cities. (Which is why some of us beg for a fully featured model, but a lighter weight/slimmer board. Others want to gig.)

I could easily buy a CVP-509, but where the heck am I going to put it, lol @ 180 lbs.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: JFP
Well, you put it in your living room right ?! So..
My FP-7F is in my living room backed up to my sofa. It's attractive-ish for what it is, but that's not why its in my living room. smile
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/07/12 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: JFP
Well, you put it in your living room right ?! So..


Some of us have healthy incomes, but live in small apartments in large cities. (Which is why some of us beg for a fully featured model, but a lighter weight/slimmer board. Others want to gig.)

I could easily buy a CVP-509, but where the heck am I going to put it, lol @ 180 lbs.


I agree with you 100%- My main motivation for using a lighter board includes some of the following reasons:
1. As you said it is not 180 pounds, that would be a pain to unpack and assemble. It is much easier dealing with a 36 pound box containing a 25 pound piano
2. If I want to upgrade it is a lot easier selling the 25 pound piano to a stranger on craiglist than a 200 pound console
3. I can take the PX130 or P95 out to gigs, peoples houses and because it was not too expensive I do not have to worry as much about it.

True on the flip side I am missing some features, but I had to make decisions based on what would be best for my situations.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 02:33 AM

I was specifically referring to the styling of the cabinet piano's PX-750/850)- the stage versions I rather like and serve a different purpose. Cabinet style DP's are usually for in the living room - so styling is an issue in my opinion...(and remains a matter of taste , but I think you can do a better cabinet drawing for the same amount of money as a manufacturer).
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 02:37 AM

Originally Posted By: JFP
Cabinet style DP's are usually for in the living room - so styling is an issue in my opinion

The models in the Privia line all seem fairly slim.
There are larger models ... looking for these?
Casio Celviano AP-620
Posted by: kmf123kmf

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: JFP
Cabinet style DP's are usually for in the living room - so styling is an issue in my opinion

The models in the Privia line all seem fairly slim.
There are larger models ... looking for these?
Casio Celviano AP-620


The problem with the Celviano's is that as soon as the new Privia's were announced the Celviano line became "last generation". The AP-x50 line is the replacement, but it has not been announced in North America, only Japan. So if someone in the US wants Casio's latest and greatest, they're stuck with the Privia's for now.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 02:18 PM

Man you guys are picky haha.

My complaint about the preferably-slim 750/850 is that they rip out all the cool sounds and whatnot present in the "lower-end" keyboards. I guess they think it competes too much with the titanic AP-620. It's a shame that they purposefully don't make the best products that they could in each form-factor.

Ah, this AP-650 video was posted yesterday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-FpJ5unnE
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 11:15 PM

Casio has done exactly what they did in the previous series of Privia/Celviano. The PX-150 AP-250 are the base models. The PX-350 and AP-650 are similar. The 350 is a stage piano while the 650 is the equivalent console. Although, the 650 has the extended polyphony (256), sympathetic resonance (what Casio is calling string resonance), the additional instrument sounds, 17track recorder, rhythms, and other refinements. The PX-350 lacks the sympathetic resonance, the extended polyphony, the bigger amp, speakers, and cabinet. The PX-850 seems to compare with the AP-450. I agree that it would have been nice if the PX-350 had all the features of the AP-650, however, the price would have gone up more than $100.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
I agree that it would have been nice if the PX-350 had all the features of the AP-650, however, the price would have gone up more than $100.

My apology, but it has to be done ...

Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 11:47 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
I agree that it would have been nice if the PX-350 had all the features of the AP-650, however, the price would have gone up more than $100.

My apology, but it has to be done ...



+1 thumb

K.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/08/12 11:57 PM

The PX-3 has not been revamped yet Perhaps Casio will up the ante and put all the features on it. You have to remember that Casio's market is at the lower end of the scale. It would be a bold step for them to start pricing their pianos more in line with Roland, Kawai, and Yahama. Who would be willing to buy a Casio for that kind of money?
Posted by: bsl100

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 12:18 AM

Casio has been improving on their sounds and key action. What they offer on the PX330 / PX350 is not matched by any of the majors at the price point. Other than Casio, the rhythm section is absent from all companies, including Yamaha which offers this in the DGX640 but with GHS keys and 64 polyphony.

I have been on the look out for a good portable DP. Cant understand why Yamaha cant put the rhythm section in their portable DPs like the P155.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Casio has done exactly what they did in the previous series of Privia/Celviano. The PX-150 AP-250 are the base models. The PX-350 and AP-650 are similar. The 350 is a stage piano while the 650 is the equivalent console. Although, the 650 has the extended polyphony (256), sympathetic resonance (what Casio is calling string resonance), the additional instrument sounds, 17track recorder, rhythms, and other refinements. The PX-350 lacks the sympathetic resonance, the extended polyphony, the bigger amp, speakers, and cabinet. The PX-850 seems to compare with the AP-450. I agree that it would have been nice if the PX-350 had all the features of the AP-650, however, the price would have gone up more than $100.


that would be an extra $100 well spent. its not really the speakers that people are talkig about, its the polyphony and the effects.

the 350 MSRP is $1099. The MSRP of the 330 was $899, right? i'm not sure they've added $200 (a 22.4% price hike) of value leaving all this stuff off the board. if they wanted to get away from the online retailers discounting these boards $100-200 off MSRP, this upgrade would be a great place to start...
Posted by: bsl100

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 11:06 AM

The PX330 is $699 where as the PX350 is priced at $799 at retailers.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 12:07 PM

The PX-3 is currently Casio's most expensive stage piano. It is concievable they would put all or most of the improvements on this once they revamp it
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bsl100
The PX330 is $699 where as the PX350 is priced at $799 at retailers.



where are you seeing $799 for the 350? i don't see it anywhere online and i find that price - since its not even released yet - very hard to believe. the 330 at $669- yes, its in clearance mode and you can order it at several different places.

If the 350 is already out there at $799 Casio has serious credibility issues with their pricing.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 04:08 PM

The PX-350 is $100 more than the PX-330. So yes, the PX-350 will sold for $799 here in the US.
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The PX-350 is $100 more than the PX-330. So yes, the PX-350 will sold for $799 here in the US.


Hi Mike,

Thanks for clarifying the price for the new PX-350.

When will the new Celvianos (especially the AP-650) be available in the US?

Cheers,

Kevin
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The PX-350 is $100 more than the PX-330. So yes, the PX-350 will sold for $799 here in the US.


well, i stand corrected. that's a better deal than i anticipated!
Posted by: sh1

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 05:20 PM

Mike, any UK date or price on the PX-350?

I noticed the XW-P1 was roughly the same price in pounds sterling as it was in dollars (499).
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 05:22 PM

...in the US..., as always we are busted in Europe and elsewhere . I remember being interested when then px3 came out , until I discoverd it was selling for around 700 dollars in the US and € 1200 (euro's !) or more in Europe. That was when I lost appetite for the Casio...
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: JFP
...in the US..., as always we are busted in Europe and elsewhere . I remember being interested when then px3 came out , until I discoverd it was selling for around 700 dollars in the US and € 1200 (euro's !) or more in Europe. That was when I lost appetite for the Casio...


why is that? VAT ? distribution? duties on electronics?....really a huge difference....
Posted by: Montano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 09:07 PM

See www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/93C about the new models. Of course it is marketing talk, but it looks promising. Very curious how the new keybed will feel. No mention when they will be available in Europe.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 09:37 PM

I think his link was supposed to be:
http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/930
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Montano
See www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/93C about the new models. Of course it is marketing talk, but it looks promising. Very curious how the new keybed will feel. No mention when they will be available in Europe.


This link comes up as "NOT FOUND"....

K.
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/09/12 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
I think his link was supposed to be:
http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/930


Thanks for posting the correct link!

Cheers,

K.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/10/12 11:01 AM

wow, the PX850 sounds perfect. is that too sophisticated for the US mass market?

EDIT: scratch this thought, looks like the 850 is a cabinet style DP. i had hoped it would be a portable board..... 37kg is pretty stout!
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/10/12 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: bfb
wow, the PX850 sounds perfect. is that too sophisticated for the US mass market?

EDIT: scratch this thought, looks like the 850 is a cabinet style DP. i had hoped it would be a portable board..... 37kg is pretty stout!


And only 18 sounds. To get the 250 sounds back (a la PX330), you gotta step up to the AP-650, which is even bigger yet. Apparently sound samples are heavy!!!
Posted by: badbob001

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/15/12 07:25 PM

Does anyone know if the key action of the upcoming PX150 is new or is something copied from an existing Casio piano? I'm trying to decide if I should wait for the PX150 but only if its key action is better than comparable Yamaha pianos. If the key action is the same with an existing Casio piano, then I can go find that model and get a feel of it. Yamaha labels their key action feel with GHS, GH, and etc so it's easy to tell how it will feel, even for a model that is not released yet. But Casio doesn't seem to have a similar standard.

My daughter's piano school sells only Yamaha and so I've only been able to play with those and I definitely feel the GH keys are a closer feel to an acoustic Yamaha piano than the GHS keys. Would it be too much to hope to expect the Casio PX150 to have GH-equivalent feeling keys?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/15/12 07:34 PM

It will be a new action, not like any current Casios.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/15/12 07:35 PM

That's a question we're all wondering about. Casio hasn[t released any technical info on their action other than to say it is improved over what they are currently selling. It looks like all their keybeds come with ivory textured keys. That is all that can be said for sure. As to what it feels like, that is anyone's guess until they actually start shipping and can be played.
Posted by: Vladimir88

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/16/12 04:58 PM

I just found this article about these new Privias and Celviano, it's in Japanese, but the pictures look nice. http://www.miroc.co.jp/magazine/archives/18551

By the way, does anybody know how much the AP-650m and the AP-450 will be?

And another thing i'd like to know. Would there be a big difference between the AP-650M speakers (16 cm X 2 and 2.5 cm X 2 with 2 - 30 Watts amplifiers) and the AP-450 ones ??( 12 cm X 2 and 2.5 cm X 2 with 2 - 20 Watts amplifiers)
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/16/12 05:34 PM

Gosh , they are ugly , looking like rhythm electric organs from the 70s and 80s . Only the 650 in polished ebony and the px-350 look better. Still not the style award winners, but acceptable. The other cabinets ....I just don't know. Cheap doesn't always have to mean ugly in my opinion.

As for the graphs - they looked interesting ; there seems to be a lot going on in the new processing. Of course I don't understand a word from what's written, so it's just guessing .

Biggest question remains: how good are new keybed and sound in practice (need user reports) , when will they hit the shop and at what (local) price. Counting off...
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/16/12 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Vladimir88
I just found this article about these new Privias and Celviano, it's in Japanese, but the pictures look nice. http://www.miroc.co.jp/magazine/archives/18551

Wow, thanks! I don't read Japanese either but it looks like one of the pix is about longer attack sampling before decay looping, another is about release velocity influencing damping time, and another about FIR comb filtering associated with stereo mic positioning, yet another about 16k velocities vs. 127.

Mike, could you comment on this? Why is it that the Japanese audience gets more technical info than the English speaking audience?
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/16/12 11:24 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Vladimir88
I just found this article about these new Privias and Celviano, it's in Japanese, but the pictures look nice. http://www.miroc.co.jp/magazine/archives/18551


Mike, could you comment on this? Why is it that the Japanese audience gets more technical info than the English speaking audience?


I was wondering the same thing....

K.
Posted by: ONfrank

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/17/12 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Mike, could you comment on this? Why is it that the Japanese audience gets more technical info than the English speaking audience?


Are people on these shores more dependent on marketers? That is, we need them to tell us what to buy? It feels that way sometimes.

Completely baseless speculation by the way. I've never lived in Japan so I don't know what the media or culture is like.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/17/12 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster

Mike, could you comment on this? Why is it that the Japanese audience gets more technical info than the English speaking audience?

Things have to be translated, then proof read, checked for trademark clashes, etc. Takes time and money. Someone has to be first then second then ... They should probably choose Mandarin then Spanish before English. The world is larger than you think smile
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/17/12 09:55 AM

Originally Posted By: ONfrank
Are people on these shores more dependent on marketers? That is, we need them to tell us what to buy? It feels that way sometimes.

This is my feeling too (that it's marketing at work).

They're showing multiple waveform views of note decays and graphs of MIDI velocities - all they need is a phase scope video and they'd be in Roland SN descriptive territory. I'm not accustomed to this, though I certainly applaud it and hope they translate it for wider dissemination.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/17/12 11:17 AM

In the end it all comes downto how it sounds. To start with; if they pick an inferior piano as source , or don't record it well - no processing afterward can save it. The basic piano sound must also match your taste. One likes the Steinway, the other swears with Bosendorfer or Fazioli . Same as with digitals - longer decays and better processing is a good thing , but doesnt tell the whole story and is sometime more of a gimmick to cover up a base that is already shaky to start with. I don't specifically mean Casio in that respect, but more in general - when people start to show to many fancy graphs and pics , I get suspicious ;-) give us some more sounds demo's that are convincing - its the ears that will decide...
Posted by: badbob001

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/17/12 01:13 PM

On Casio's older keyboards, they call the key action 'Tri-Sensor 88-note scaled hammer action keyboard', which sound more like a description than any kind of branding. But on Casio International's site, they have actually labelled the new key action as 'Tri-sensor Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard II'. You can find more info on it here:
http://www.casio-intl.com/asia-mea/en/emi/privia/info/#hummer

It is nice that all the pianos in the same series will share the same key action so you are choosing based on the added features you need and don't have to worry about basic compromises in the lower models. While I am interested in the PX-150, I do wonder when will the AP-250 be announced for the US since I don't need portability and I do like having a cover. And a Privia + stand + bench will cost close to that of the equivalent Celviano anyway.
Posted by: badbob001

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/17/12 02:10 PM

Just found this video on the new Celviano pianos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-FpJ5unnE
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/17/12 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: badbob001
Just found this video on the new Celviano pianos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-FpJ5unnE

That's in Post #1939385
Posted by: badbob001

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/18/12 02:03 PM

Given that the PX-130 was announced in Aug 11, 2009 and the matching AP-220 in Jan 14, 2010, I guessing I'll have to wait until early 2013 for the PX-150's matching AP-250. frown

The specs for the PX-150 / AP-250 says it only has an USB-host port and not an USB-device port, so no playback of music from a flash drive. Can I connect a Casio to a PC laptop and get it to play/pass a midi file through to the keyboard's synthesizer?
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/30/12 01:49 PM

The question was already asked before, but there've been no replies;
Given that the PX-350 still has 250 sample voices, is it reasonable to assume that with the exception of the new piano sounds, the other samples remain the same as those on the PX-330?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/30/12 01:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Marvin Eight
The question was already asked before, but there've been no replies;
Given that the PX-350 still has 250 sample voices, is it reasonable to assume that with the exception of the new piano sounds, the other samples remain the same as those on the PX-330?

Based on the sound list for the PX-350, the non-piano sounds are not completely identical to either the PX-330 nor the PX-3.

http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_PX350-E-1A.pdf
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/30/12 03:24 PM

I'm going to be evil, and suggest that the extra PX-350 piano sounds are probably EQ/filter settings (over the PX-330) of the suggested new and improved main piano sound.

Just comparing PDFs (ie, no idea if the sounds themselves were altered):

+2 piano (2 of concert/studio/bright/dolce, as they probably just renamed the previous "variation" and "modern")
+2 ep/vibes/clavi (chorus ep, wah clavi - probably EQ again)
+1 organ (full drawbar (arabic organ renamed and moved here?))
+1 strings/synthpad (stereo strings 2)
-6 various (yang qin 2, suo na, pi pa 2, sarod, sarangi, arabic organ)
no change bass/guitar.
no change gm tones.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 08/30/12 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
I'm going to be evil, and suggest that the extra PX-350 piano sounds are probably EQ/filter settings (over the PX-330) of the suggested new and improved main piano sound.

If you mean all the PX-350 AP voices are probably just EQ variations of a single sample set I wouldn't call that evil, just keeping one's expectations realistically in the basement. And spreading sample memory even thinner to support more than one base sample is generally a mistake in this backwards market.

Too bad you can't be arrested for breaking Moore's law.
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/05/12 12:29 AM

Wow... I was going to buy a Celviano next week, but it seems I'm gonna wait for the new models.

The "record to WAV file" function is sure to become very useful for uploading clean-sounding videos to YouTube. smile
Posted by: pv88

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/05/12 03:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Stevesie
It seems quite ridiculous that in 2012 musicians are still hoping that a new model of piano will have a decent sample memory. I'm still in the market for a DP but I am having trouble parting with my money when they generally still sound nothing like an acoustic piano.


So, you have to try a "modeled" instrument, not one with "samples"...

The only digital that really has great sustain pedal decay and resonance (like an acoustic) would be the V-Piano, or, V-Piano Grand. And, you will have to shell out at least $6K to get one, as I did.
Posted by: pv88

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/05/12 03:38 AM

Originally Posted By: kmf123kmf
Originally Posted By: kmf123kmf
Hi everyone,

I just found this release from Japan. Looks like, as expected really, Casio is releasing new Celvianos as well. (At least in Japan for now)

http://www.japantoday.com/category/new-products/view/digital-piano-series

I've been lurking this forum for a while now looking for my first DP. Can't wait to hear reviews of these new Casio's once they're out.

-Kevin


Gah! Casio is killing me! All the new Celviano's are up on the Japanese site.

http://casio.jp/emi/products/celviano/ (Google Translate does a passable job if you don't read Japanese)

No trace of them in North America or Europe though.



[Edited]
Posted by: Stevesie

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/05/12 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: pv88
Originally Posted By: Stevesie
It seems quite ridiculous that in 2012 musicians are still hoping that a new model of piano will have a decent sample memory. I'm still in the market for a DP but I am having trouble parting with my money when they generally still sound nothing like an acoustic piano.


So, you have to try a "modeled" instrument, not one with "samples"...

The only digital that really has great sustain pedal decay and resonance (like an acoustic) would be the V-Piano, or, V-Piano Grand. And, you will have to shell out at least $6K to get it, as I did.


Heh, I wish I had $6k to spend! For now it will probably be a basic DP connected to an old laptop, linuxsampler and $25 worth of Sampletekk bosendorfer gigasampler files. It sounds quite ok really.
Posted by: pv88

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/05/12 03:59 AM

@Stevesie,

I am quite sure that your current solution is probably just fine, as what sounds "good" to the ear of the player is all that really matters anyway, plus a decent action.

I just bought Kawai's lowest end offering, the EP3, and I can truly say that I like the sounds and resonance (specifically, the longer sustain pedal decay) far better than the more expensive Casio AP-620.

The EP3 is very good, in its price range.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/05/12 11:45 AM

Just took a quick picture of a PX-150. The texture on the keys looks a bit exaggerated due to the lighting but it feels absolutely phenomenal (in my opinion).





We're shooting videos and recording audio demos this week and next so we should have those posted before the new models begin shipping.

Take care,
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/05/12 02:42 PM

Wow, amazing picture, Mike!

Yesterday I wrote to the only local authorized distributor of Casio pianos (masmusika.com, facebook.com/MASMUSIKAecuador) and they said they have no idea when the new models will come to Ecuador.

Maybe someone in Casio can drop them a line so at least they'll be able to give an ETA? Currently they only carry the AP-220 and the PX-330 w/stand.

I'll keep bugging them. smile
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/06/12 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
We're shooting videos and recording audio demos this week and next so we should have those posted before the new models begin shipping.


So ... shipping week of Sep 17th?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/06/12 08:38 PM

I think the week of Sept 24th, if its sooner I'll let you know.
Posted by: mg64

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/06/12 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
I think the week of Sept 24th, if its sooner I'll let you know.


Mike Martin, would it be possible to use the SP 32 with the PX-350?

Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/06/12 10:32 PM

No unfortunately not.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/06/12 10:48 PM

Does that mean we can expect to hear them at our Guitar Center/Sam Ash stores then or before? If I am in NYC the 22nd would I be able to try one out then at the various brick and mortar stores?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/07/12 12:08 AM

As I said before, I believe we are shipping to stores the week of the 24th, so I'm not sure you'd see one in a store on the 22nd.
Posted by: shgmd

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/07/12 07:52 PM

Hi Mike,
Any idea when the AP650M will be shipping? Thanks for all the helpful Casio information.
Steve
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/08/12 10:10 PM

Nevermind then.
Posted by: Vladimir88

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/08/12 10:38 PM

No, AFAIK, the 135 doesn't have anything to do with the new Casio DP's, also, Mike Martin said the DP's would be released around September 22 or 24.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/09/12 12:06 AM

Its an exciting time with the x50 series, krome and 105 coming out. I enjoyed reading the 350 manual- there was a link to it on the musicplayer.com forums.
Posted by: badbob001

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/10/12 10:59 AM

From the musicplayer.com forum, here's the link to the PX350 manual:
http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_PX350-E-1A.pdf

And by adjusting the URL a little, here's the link to the PX150 manual:
http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_PX150-E-1A.pdf

From the PX150 manual, it is possible for it to playback midi files but you need to copy the file, via a usb-computer connection, to the 10 available song memory slots. The secondary USB port on the PX350 makes midi file playback much easier since you can use a flash drive. But I'll probably go with the PX150 since the the extra buttons and functions on the PX350 would be too distracting for the kids, but I may need to check out the panel lock option.

More:
PX750: http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_PX750-E-1A.pdf
PX850: http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_PX850-E-1A.pdf
AP250: http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_AP250-E-1A.pdf
AP450: http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_AP450-E-1A.pdf
AP650: http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/Web_AP650-E-1A.pdf
Posted by: badbob001

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/12/12 05:41 PM

It looks like the PX750 is exactly the same as the PX150 except for the included stand + pedals + sliding cover. Would there even be a market for the AP250, which adds similar extras over the PX150 + a bench?

I wonder which would be cheapest:
PX150 + stand + pedals + bench
PX750 + bench
AP250
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/12/12 06:17 PM

Looking forward to PX350 vs AP650 comparisons. I guess I can read the manuals myself though. (PX850 got the short end of the stick wrt to # of sounds.)
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/12/12 09:26 PM

Quote:
(PX850 got the short end of the stick wrt to # of sounds.)
The PX-850 does have fewer sounds than the PX-350, but the PX-850 has the best acoustic piano reproduction of the bunch because it includes nuances like sympathetic resonance, release velocity and lid simulation. That is combined with the most powerful speaker system of the line.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 11:25 AM

Mike,

i don't understand why Casio isn't driven to have at least one keyboard where you've put the best possible acoustic sound reproduction into the lightest and most portable keyboard.

You'd make a lot of folks on this blog happy if you'd consider that. Your general pricing is aggressive enough that you'd have some room to compensate for the increased on-board memory required to accomplish that. i think the peeps would pay an extra hundred or even two hundred to get that sound in a very portable instrument.

just a thought.
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: bfb
Mike,

i don't understand why Casio isn't driven to have at least one keyboard where you've put the best possible acoustic sound reproduction into the lightest and most portable keyboard.

You'd make a lot of folks on this blog happy if you'd consider that. Your general pricing is aggressive enough that you'd have some room to compensate for the increased on-board memory required to accomplish that. i think the peeps would pay an extra hundred or even two hundred to get that sound in a very portable instrument.

just a thought.


+1
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 01:11 PM

An easy-to read feature comparison table with all new Privias and Celvianos would come in handy.

I also find it strange that there seems to be no clear "ne plus ultra" portable model.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 01:35 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
I would like to know more specifics on what has been done to improve the action also. In an earlier post Mike said the action had been improved over the previous models, but could not say what specifically had been done. He also said side to side motion had been reduced. This was a common complaint on the Privia PX-x30 models with keys rubbing against adjacent keys and wobbling. From the sounds of his post the key texture that has been added to all models was also improved. I am looking forward to playing these new models when they come out to see how much better they are. Mike, any chance of getting info from Tokyo on what they did to improve the action?


I do not have specifics on what has been changed mechanically. As I said before the side to side motion has definitely been reduced. The key texture (simulated ebony and ivory) is quite remarkable (IMO). There is a technical detail I can share. Internally the action now has 14bit resolution to the sound engine. MIDI as you may know is 7bit (0-127). So the action has 16,256 steps of resolution when driving our new piano sounds.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 01:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
the PX-850 has the best acoustic piano reproduction of the bunch because it includes nuances like sympathetic resonance, release velocity and lid simulation. That is combined with the most powerful speaker system of the line.


Wait, the PX-850 outshines the AP-650 wrt AP reproduction?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 01:39 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
the PX-850 has the best acoustic piano reproduction of the bunch because it includes nuances like sympathetic resonance, release velocity and lid simulation. That is combined with the most powerful speaker system of the line.


Wait, the PX-850 outshines the AP-650 wrt AP reproduction?


I was referring specifically to the PRIVIA models. We won't see the new AP series here in the US until January 2013.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 03:17 PM

So the 750 is the cabinet version of which keyboard in the new lineup? Im a college kid and having a cabinet setup would be too much of a hassle. Im looking for the best keyboard in the lineup for my money...so really, what Im asking is what is the PX-350 equivalent to? Is it just a KB version of the 750 or what?
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
There is a technical detail I can share. Internally the action now has 14bit resolution to the sound engine. MIDI as you may know is 7bit (0-127). So the action has 16,256 steps of resolution when driving our new piano sounds.

It's pretty trivial to get 14 bits from an action, you just speed up the counters and make them wider. I believe the real questions are: where in this process is the velocity curve applied, how much resolution is left (excluding any missing codes) after it is applied, and can the sound engine make any use of data wider than 7 bits?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 03:54 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
There is a technical detail I can share. Internally the action now has 14bit resolution to the sound engine. MIDI as you may know is 7bit (0-127). So the action has 16,256 steps of resolution when driving our new piano sounds.

It's pretty trivial to get 14 bits from an action, you just speed up the counters and make them wider. I believe the real questions are: where in this process is the velocity curve applied, how much resolution is left (excluding any missing codes) after it is applied, and can the sound engine make any use of data wider than 7 bits?


It's not trivial at all to have this type of resolution tied to the sound engine. So yes the sound engine takes advantage of this and it allows for a more accurate and expressive experience. This is something that you won't find on Privia's most direct competitors.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
So the 750 is the cabinet version of which keyboard in the new lineup?


The PX-150.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
So yes the sound engine takes advantage of this and it allows for a more accurate and expressive experience.

Are there any studies that show 127 velocities - post velocity filtering - are insufficient? More resolution is generally better, but only up to the limits of human perception, after which the engineering effort expended isn't adding any real value.

So you're saying these 14 bits of resolution are after the velocity filtering?
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 04:50 PM

i'm going to be a dork and suggest that casio consider....

making the privia line- lightweight and portable- and have gradations up in quality to where the top privia has all the sound capabilities that COULD BE available- and still a light(er) weight portable

make the Celviano line your exclusive console line- with quality grades similar to the privia.

i dont see why you need console privia's and console celvianos- i know they are different price points and are trying to address different markets, like toyota and lexus, but this gets somewhat redundant and confusing. and you are underserving your portable DP customer. seems to me you could make a better margin loading up a portable board and saving some trees.

and that's all i'm going to say about it.


PS: and yes, i understand your retail distribution channels are different and probably want exclusivity, and two brands gives you wider distribution....
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
So yes the sound engine takes advantage of this and it allows for a more accurate and expressive experience.

Are there any studies that show 127 velocities - post velocity filtering - are insufficient? More resolution is generally better, but only up to the limits of human perception, after which the engineering effort expended isn't adding any real value.

So you're saying these 14 bits of resolution are after the velocity filtering?
'

What is velocity filtering?

Anyway, maybe I'm over-simplifying, but it sounds like the keyboard sends 16k velocity levels to the board's internal piano sound engine rather than the more typical 127. Is there more to it than that? And do you think that's not valuable? I'm afraid I'm missing something...
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 05:08 PM

BRB,
We appreciate the feedback, while Privia and Celviano have similarities the sometimes the difference comes down to cabinet and the style. There are some customers that want small light and portable and other customers want something that is more traditional in style with a larger speaker system. We're giving customers a choice which I think is a good thing. smile
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 05:17 PM

Dewster,
The limitations of the 7bit 0-127 value system has been argued a lot over the last 20 years as electronic instruments have become more capable and expressive. From pianists to drummers (using electronic drums) countless people have argued that 127 values is nowhere near enough.

Casio is not the first to implement a 14-bit system on the keyboard. You will find this on products such as Yamaha Clavinova. I'm not aware of other manufacturers providing this level of detail on products under $1000. Needless to say, the keyboard's connection to the AiR sound source that I believe takes our product to another level.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 06:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Dewster,
The limitations of the 7bit 0-127 value system has been argued a lot over the last 20 years as electronic instruments have become more capable and expressive. From pianists to drummers (using electronic drums) countless people have argued that 127 values is nowhere near enough.

Casio is not the first to implement a 14-bit system on the keyboard. You will find this on products such as Yamaha Clavinova. I'm not aware of other manufacturers providing this level of detail on products under $1000. Needless to say, the keyboard's connection to the AiR sound source that I believe takes our product to another level.


Mike, I have a question: I am planning on getting the PX-350 as I am enjoying my P130 perhaps even a little more than the P95.
I really liked the PX-830 and somewhat question why I didn't get it instead of the P95 2 years ago and it came down to portabililty.

Was any consideration given to perhaps having one of the portable models contain the 2 20 watt speakers? Or does this require a larger shell?

Also, is there any reason you would recommend a 150 over a 350?
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
What is velocity filtering?

Anyway, maybe I'm over-simplifying, but it sounds like the keyboard sends 16k velocity levels to the board's internal piano sound engine rather than the more typical 127. Is there more to it than that? And do you think that's not valuable? I'm afraid I'm missing something...

To sense velocity from two positional switches, you need one timer per key. You start the timer when the upper switch closes, and stop it when the lower switch closes. The time elapsed is inversely proportional to the average velocity between switch events.

You have to take the elapsed time count and filter it in many ways. If the count is too high (too low velocity) the filter spits out the minimum velocity or zero velocity. If the count is is too low (too high velocity) the filter spits out the maximum velocity. In between these the filter might add an offset, apply a curve that favors the high end (harder) or low end (softer), etc.

For the filter to be able to spit out all possible values (with no missing output codes) the input elapsed time count must have more resolution than the output (since we're dealing with integers). So there is definitely a value in having more precision at the input of the filter. Is there a value in having more than 127 levels at the output of the filter? Mike is saying it is better to have more, but he's here selling Casio. I could be persuaded to believe more than 127 is good, but I would need a study. If Mike is saying it was non-trivial for Casio engineers to implement this, certainly they had some hard data driving them to commit the time, energy, and money required to do so?

I can certainly see situations where more output bits would be good, like if you are using the keys to trigger a PC sampler and want to apply a second velocity curve on the PC. I wonder if the new Casios can output this higher resolution velocity data via MIDI?

But more resolution to the internal sound generator? I'd need to be persuaded there is a real need for it.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 07:07 PM

The bottom line for me is PX-350 or used Yamaha MO8/MOX8. They're all around the same price.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
there is definitely a value in having more precision at the input of the filter. Is there a value in having more than 127 levels at the output of the filter?

I still don't quite get the distinction.

Let's say the fastest velocity (represented by the speed at which the key would travel from the top sensor to the bottom sensor if a bowling ball were dropped on it... or as close to that as they could imagine any human managing in normal playing) is 1 millisecond. Let's say the slowest velocity which they think should produce any sound at all is 500 milliseconds (i.e. anything slower than that would be slow enough that, on a real piano, it would produce no sound).

(I know those numbers may bear no resemblance to reality; I know that some DPs produce a minimum sound no matter how long you take to depress the key... but I'm just choosing a range of number to illustrate.)

So we have a range of 500 milliseconds which need to be translated into either 127 values (where 1 millisecond = velocity 127 and each additional 4 milliseconds or so decreases that value by one); or we have 16,256 values where 1 millisecond = velocity 16,256, and each additional .03 millisecond decreases that value by one.

There is not a pre-filter division and a post-filter division; there is an absolute time, and a value derived from it. Though of course, they could apply a curve so that the division of time into velocity units is not so linear. But it's still a simple equation of time on one side and a velocity value to send to the tone generator (and/or over MIDI) on the other.

No?

EDIT: I think maybe I understand, you're talking about how fine the initial time measurement is... whether it's to the nearest millisecond, or something finer (or more coarse) than that, which also has to be represented digitally as some number of bits, yes? But processors have long worked with tiny increments of time, even a millisecond is long to a processor, and MIDI has no relevance to the time calculation (from triggering one sensor to the other). So I think the only place "increased definition" makes sense is on the other side of the equation.

Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 07:31 PM

Dewster,
One additional detail, the new Privia's using 3 sensors in order to achieve this higher resolution.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
No?

No. For one thing you're equating subtraction with division. The elapsed time is inversely proportional to velocity.

An object traveling at 1 m/s will take one second to travel a meter, say this produces a count of 100. An object traveling twice as fast will take 1/2 second with a count of 50. And an object traveling three as fast will take 1/3 second with a count of 33.3. The velocities 1, 2, and 3 are equally spaced, but the elapsed time counts 100, 50, and 33.3 aren't. It's this cramping that requires increased input resolution to the velocity filter.

Offsets and non-linear filtering (to favor higher or lower velocity ranges) require even more. Surely you've seen convex and concave velocity curves in keyboard manuals?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 08:22 PM

I didn't see you message before adding my edit, but it looks like my edit was on the wrong track anyway. ;-) I still don't really get this (i.e. "input resolution to the velocity filter") but I don't feel I have the background to continue to discuss this intelligently, so I'll leave it here.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Possum P95

Mike, I have a question: I am planning on getting the PX-350 as I am enjoying my P130 perhaps even a little more than the P95.
I really liked the PX-830 and somewhat question why I didn't get it instead of the P95 2 years ago and it came down to portabililty.

Was any consideration given to perhaps having one of the portable models contain the 2 20 watt speakers? Or does this require a larger shell?

Also, is there any reason you would recommend a 150 over a 350?


I really like the PX-830 as well. Other than the PX-3 it was the only model that had the matte finished keys. 20w per side could be done in a "portable" slab but it would significantly add to the weight.

In regards to the PX-150 vs PX-350, my choice is the PX-350. There are many reasons why, but my favorite is the USB audio recording. When you sit down to play, just plug in a USB thumb drive and press the audio record button twice and it is recording a .wav file.

I recorded a very informal video in my office tonight of myself playing the PX-350. I didn't have to hook up the computer, dial up software or anything. It captured all the audio which I lined up with the video later. So convenient. Not sure if I'll post this yet....wasn't really happy with the way I played. I'll watch it again in a few and make up my mind about. Either way, I'll shoot more video tomorrow.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 09:36 PM

Mike,
Will you be making a video demo of any of the new models or is Casio going to just be putting up audio samples of the new Privias? So it sounds like with the new action, the keystroke pressure will affect how the paino reproduces the note that is sounded and the nuance?
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 09:48 PM

One thing I wanted to ask you was about the speakers- I feel as though the ones on the PX130 do a nice job of filling the room I am in and the piano sounds very similar with headphones on.

I also got one of those stereo miniplug cables to connect the 130 to my Mackie MR5's- and to be honest only did it once because I find that I am getting the sound I want from the keyboard itself- compliment to Casio for well designed speakers on their slab pianos.

That is my complaint about my P95 over time- it is a completely different instrument- I do not hear any attack on the internal speakers but with headphones to me I feel as though I am sitting at a grand.

Power being equal, how does having the tweeters on the 350 change the sound vs the 130 or even 150 ? Does it make it perceived as louder (with the same wattage) change the EQ?

The 850 looks great as well, but for me personally-I would be more inclined to get the 350 and put it on an x-stand and later add the custom cs-67.

Seems the 850 would come in a 100+pound box and it is just way easier for me the way my 95 and 130 came ups.

As you can tell I have the Yamaha custom stand and found it simpler to set up, easier to have shipped etc..
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 09:55 PM

RE: the extra velocity resolution, I'm very much with Dewster on this one: I'd like to see a carefully controlled study.

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
RE: the extra velocity resolution, I'm very much with Dewster on this one: I'd like to see a carefully controlled study.

My feeling is that these kinds of specs don't matter anyway. If the Casio sounds and feels good to play, what difference does it make whether it's because of the 16,000 velocity layers or not? Conversely, what if some study showed that extra velocity levels were indeed noticeable? That wouldn't mean that a model with that feature would necessarily sound better than a model without it, it would depend on the success of the implementation along with all the other variables that make one piano sound better than another. It may be interesting to know from an academic standpoint, but I can't see where it would be relevant in actually choosing what model to buy.
Posted by: shgmd

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 10:26 PM

Mike,
As I would like a console piano, I was wondering if the Privia PX-850 will be similar in action and piano sounds to the Celviano AP-650M, although I know the latter will have a greater number of sounds. I'm interested since it looks like I'd be able to try out the PX-850 fairly soon, as the AP-650M won't come out until January, and I wanted to try to get an early sense of what the AP-650M will be like. Just wondering if the AP-650M will be worth waiting for. I have liked the AP-620, but have found on a number of models that I have tried that the keys have some annoying lateral motion and the piano sounds die off a little too quickly for my taste (classical music).
Thanks very much for all your info about Casio pianos.
Steve
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Possum P95
is there any reason you would recommend a 150 over a 350?

Price. ;-)

Other than that, a 350 is a 150 with more features, so it's a matter of whether you need the extra features. I would prefer the 350 for the Line Out jacks, the standard MIDI connectors, the extra sounds, and the ability to store registrations. But there are other differences that might matter more to someone else. If you don't need any of them, stick with the 150.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
It may be interesting to know from an academic standpoint, but I can't see where it would be relevant in actually choosing what model to buy.

I don't see it as academic. A manufacturer is saying it makes a real difference - is that real science or just marketing? Though I'm pretty sure increased velocity resolution isn't the first thing I'd fix in a looped instrument...
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 10:44 PM

Why is there no PX-350 in the PX-850 form factor with the nifty lid?
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 10:47 PM

If I want to record the sequence I'm working on, do I just load it to the USB thumb drive and turn off the keyboard? When I turn the keyboard back on, will the thumb drive then load the sequence I was working on so that I could continue working on it?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 10:53 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Why is there no PX-350 in the PX-850 form factor with the nifty lid?


That is planned as the Celviano AP-650.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
It may be interesting to know from an academic standpoint, but I can't see where it would be relevant in actually choosing what model to buy.

I don't see it as academic. A manufacturer is saying it makes a real difference - is that real science or just marketing? Though I'm pretty sure increased velocity resolution isn't the first thing I'd fix in a looped instrument...


Dewster,
There was early question about "what else is different about the action". I did my best to address it. You can believe if you wish that it is just marketing but many manufacturers have developed higher resolution key triggering systems to allow more precise control over the expression on an electronic instrument. Casio I believe is the first to do this under $1000.

That being said, this is not the "first thing" that Casio did when developing the new series. The first thing was to develop a proprietary new processor that would allow better, control, providing damper resonance simulation, access larger memory sizes, provide better effects and much more.

BTW: Where in located in NJ?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Marvin Eight
If I want to record the sequence I'm working on, do I just load it to the USB thumb drive and turn off the keyboard? When I turn the keyboard back on, will the thumb drive then load the sequence I was working on so that I could continue working on it?


Marvin,
The USB thumb drive does several different things. One of the things it can is audio recording. It is very simple, you arm it to record, you play and it creates a .wav file. You can do 99, 25 minute recordings. The USB drive can also serve as storage for the 17 track recorder. This is a multi-track system that Yes would allow you to work on a song piece by piece. The USB drive however is only used to save or backup your song as it stays in memory after you turn the PX-350 off.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
I don't see it as academic. A manufacturer is saying it makes a real difference - is that real science or just marketing?

But all that matters is if it's good. If it is, it doesn't matter how they got there. If it isn't, it doesn't matter what features it has, and whether you can scientifically prove they're audible or not. That's why I say it's academic... the knowledge will in no way impact whether or not you will buy the piano, even though it may be interesting to know (which is pretty much the definition of it being academic).

Also, a scientific test could prove it can make an audible difference, it still wouldn't tell you whether or not it really makes a difference in this particular design. Or conversely, I suppose, a test could appear to show that more velocity levels makes no difference, but it may be hard to devise a test that could prove it could never make a difference in any circumstance, regardless of other design aspects of the tone or action of the piano, or for that matter, regardless of the player/listener (i.e. it is possible something may only be discernible by one in a hundred people, or one in a a thousand...).

(I also have a hard time imagining who would fund such an independent study, toward what end. But then, people do study all sorts of things...)

But speaking theoretically, in terms of sound, I have a hard time thinking it really makes much difference. The entire volume range of an acoustic piano is, I believe, maybe about 50 dB max. 127 volume levels, then, is enough for any two adjacent levels to be less than a half dB apart, which I believe is a difference below what most people can hear even in the "easiest" frequency and level range to notice differences, so it seems like finer resolution than that would not be audible.

But there are some other variables. Increased velocity doesn't merely change the level of a piano note, it can also change the timbre. But even a timbre increase is really only a level change, it is just that it is a non-linear change, i.e. the level of some harmonics change more than others. I'm not sure whether your ear may be able to pick up such non-linear level changes at finer amounts than when the entire harmonic spectrum of a sound changes in linear fashion, anyone know?

Another variable is that your fingers are capable of, in a sense, an infinite number of velocities. Even though you can't produce a specific velocity on demand (I doubt most people could do that even within only a range of 127, or even 50), you still (for example) "play through" a crescendo at various velocities you could not necessarily produce on demand, but they do need to correlate to particular sonic changes. So this, to me, is the other side of the argument. It's not a matter of hearing more than 127 distinct sounds, it's a matter of being able to naturally respond to the more than 127 different velocities we strike the keys with. In this case, any scientific test would not be based on whether a listener could discern the difference between hearing a 127 and 16k velocity piano, but whether the player could tell the difference in how it "felt" in terms of the sonic changes corresponding to his fingers.

Put differently, sonically, 127 "levels" may be sufficient, but there may be a benefit to mapping those levels to more than 127 "velocities" (and not necessarily in a linear fashion), and that would be hard to discern in any way other than the subjective experience of the player.

That said, I would tend to think that 127 "ranges" of velocities (even if differently "sized") should be enough... i.e. even if someone scientifically "proved" that 16,000 velocities were better than 127, I think it would be that much harder to prove that 16,000 velocities is better than any possible implementation of 127. That is, if the problem of insufficient velocity resolution exists at all, there may be more than one way to address it, so again, even proving that more velocities can be beneficial doesn't prove that they will be beneficial, either in an absolute sense in any particular design, or relative to other possible solutions to the problem.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/13/12 11:11 PM

Obviously very informal, but here is what I recorded early this evening.

Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 12:13 AM

.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 02:04 AM

Mike,
You play very well. Thanks for posting this. I am looking forward to playing one of these when they hit the stores. I'll be able to compare it to the PX-575 (which I currently have and like very much). I hope Casio brings this one back at some point with the newer technology.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 06:46 AM

I'm not quite clear, Mike. Are you saying that even without the USB thumb drive in place, the PX-350 will retain a sequence in its own memory even when it's turned off?

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: Marvin Eight
If I want to record the sequence I'm working on, do I just load it to the USB thumb drive and turn off the keyboard? When I turn the keyboard back on, will the thumb drive then load the sequence I was working on so that I could continue working on it?


Marvin,
The USB thumb drive does several different things. One of the things it can is audio recording. It is very simple, you arm it to record, you play and it creates a .wav file. You can do 99, 25 minute recordings. The USB drive can also serve as storage for the 17 track recorder. This is a multi-track system that Yes would allow you to work on a song piece by piece. The USB drive however is only used to save or backup your song as it stays in memory after you turn the PX-350 off.
Posted by: bsl100

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 08:38 AM

Mike. Fabulous presentation of the PX-350 piano sound. You have made me reconsider my plan for the P-105. The piano sound is excellent and so is your playing.

Congrats to Casio and you for putting out a great board. Will try it out.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Marvin Eight
I'm not quite clear, Mike. Are you saying that even without the USB thumb drive in place, the PX-350 will retain a sequence in its own memory even when it's turned off?


Yes. smile
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 09:59 AM

BFB,
Thanks for watching. As I mentioned at the end of the video the recording of the piano was made on the PX-350 itself. The PX-350 has a slot for a USB thumb drive and can make audio recordings directly to the USB drive.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 10:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
BFB,
Thanks for watching. As I mentioned at the end of the video the recording of the piano was made on the PX-350 itself. The PX-350 has a slot for a USB thumb drive and can make audio recordings directly to the USB drive.


thanks Mike- i actually pulled my post because i went back and reread the thread and figured that out...

really nice offering. looking forward to trying one soon..
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 10:08 AM

One clarification. The Privia PX-150 will sound identical to the example I posted. The PX-350 however does have additional piano presets not available on the PX-150.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
It may be interesting to know from an academic standpoint, but I can't see where it would be relevant in actually choosing what model to buy.

I don't see it as academic. A manufacturer is saying it makes a real difference - is that real science or just marketing? Though I'm pretty sure increased velocity resolution isn't the first thing I'd fix in a looped instrument...


Dewster,
There was early question about "what else is different about the action". I did my best to address it. You can believe if you wish that it is just marketing but many manufacturers have developed higher resolution key triggering systems to allow more precise control over the expression on an electronic instrument. Casio I believe is the first to do this under $1000.

That being said, this is not the "first thing" that Casio did when developing the new series. The first thing was to develop a proprietary new processor that would allow better, control, providing damper resonance simulation, access larger memory sizes, provide better effects and much more.

BTW: Where in located in NJ?


I am in NJ as well! SJ 20 minutes east of Philadelphia.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/14/12 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
One clarification. The Privia PX-150 will sound identical to the example I posted. The PX-350 however does have additional piano presets not available on the PX-150.


Could you tell us a little about the Rhodes presets? I really like the one on the 130 as it sounds great on 70's Billy Joel album tracks such as James and Los Angelenos.

On my Juno I reprogrammed a sound with more chorus to give it an effect similar to Rosalinda's Eyes
Posted by: DavidC

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/16/12 10:57 AM

Just some clarification:

Both the 150 and 350 can be connected as MIDI controllers through USB, right? Its just that the 350 also has the MIDI ports in the back?

Thanks!
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/16/12 04:58 PM

DavidC, correct.
Posted by: emenelton

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/16/12 05:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
DavidC, correct.


Only if you connect the 150 to a computer.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/17/12 04:27 PM

Thats very cool Mike! I can't wait to buy/try it. Is there a music rest for that model or did you just not attach it?
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 02:19 AM

Good question. Music rest for the 350?
Posted by: funkycornwall

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 04:42 AM

Yes there is a music rest.
Posted by: Dax

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 05:34 AM

Hi, folks -
my first post here ;-)
I am concerned about the midi implementation on the PX-350:
I own a PX-330, and was disappointed with the fact that incoming midi cannot control the high quality tones - the ones that you play from the PX keyboard! Incoming midi only controls the tone module for the auto accomp. The PX-330 actually has 48-parts (!) - but sadly only the last 16 is available to trigger from other keyboards. And those are the cheezy GM-ones....(I had to struggle through the PX-330 MIDI-implementation pdf to learn this:
http://support.casio.com/manualfile.php?rgn=5&cid=008009141)

Does anybody know (Mike?) if this will be the same in PX-350? I often use multi-keyboard setups, and need the flexibility to trigger (the best) piano sounds from external keyboards. The midi implementation manual is not up on Casio's download site yet....
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 06:08 AM

Dax,
Bank changes allow you to access all of the sounds. Without a bank change you are limited to the GM bank, this is true of any GM compatible product.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 06:09 AM

Originally Posted By: funkycornwall
Yes there is a music rest.


Yes of course, I left it in the box. ;-)
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 06:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Dax
I own a PX-330, and was disappointed with the fact that incoming midi cannot control the high quality tones...PX-330 actually has 48-parts (!) - but sadly only the last 16 is available to trigger from other keyboards. And those are the cheezy GM-ones

I believe that is incorrect. You should be able to trigger any PX-330 tone from an external MIDI source (another MIDI keyboard or a sequencer) by sending the correct MSB with the Program Change on the desired channel. The MSB for each high quality tone is listed in the owner manual. No MSB (MSB=0) get you only GM. You have to send the MSB/LSB data in order to access all the tones on any instrument that has more than 128 sounds in it.
Posted by: Kbeaumont

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 09:26 AM

You are correct Scott, if for example you use Bank Select MSB 48 & program 1 you get the Modern Grand patch.
But if you fail to provide a bank select, then bank 0 is the default and program change 1 gives you GM Piano 1.

My Sonic Cell does the same thing, if I don't choose a bank I get general midi only. Some controllers are much easier to set bank information. On my Kurzweil SP4-7, to get the Preset 1 bank on my Sonic Cell I have to do some arithmetic which ends up coming out to 5200. I don't remember the exact formula but it like Bank number MSB * 128 + patch number not very intuitive, but once you know it its not difficult. My guitar synth controller (axon) on the other hand has software that has separate entries for MSB and patch number. The software on it also reads cubase patch scripts and gives a drop down list in the software, sweet! And Roland has a cubase patch scripts for all of its products! That makes it dead simple to call up any patch and layer it with the internal synth sounds or other Sonic Cell patches. The Kurzweil is a nice controller but the external patch selection could be simpler and more intuitive.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 11:01 AM

Mike, any idea of whether or not I can expect to see a 350 on display at a Best Buy?

I'd love to try it out!!
Posted by: Dax

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 11:26 AM

Mike, Kbeaumont, Anotherscott,

Thanx for enlightening me!

" ...if for example you use Bank Select MSB 48 & program 1 you get the Modern Grand patch.
But if you fail to provide a bank select, then bank 0 is the default and program change 1 gives you GM Piano 1."

Of course it was the MSB message that was missing. Found it in the user manual. Seems I misunderstood the MIDI-implementation chart....sorry if I confused anybody. Now I can implement my PX-330 in my Mainstage setups - using "local off" and bank/prog changes, it's dead easy to quickly create and change multisplits/layers without having to dive into PX menus. Now the PX-350 is even more attractive with its new soundbanks!
Posted by: Kbeaumont

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 12:15 PM

Mainstage Rocks!
Posted by: Itsgotta

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 01:22 PM

Hello,

Can you please tell me if any of the Casio px 350 buttons are able to assigned as midi functions? Specifically, the transports buttons ( play, stop, record). I'd like to use this kb together with logic 9 if possible.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Mike, any idea of whether or not I can expect to see a 350 on display at a Best Buy?

I'd love to try it out!!



At Best Buy? Highly doubtful. Best Buy keyboards usually max out at around $500 or so.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 07:13 PM

The first of our PX-150's arrived. I unboxed one this afternoon and while a couple of things stood out to me, I am overall very pleased. I invite anyone who can to come down to try one. Coming soon to a dealer near you. It is quite different from the PX-130...really it's only the controls that seem similar.

No PX-350 yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

As someone else pointed out, I seriously doubt you see PX-350 on display at Best Buy though a few stores may try it out. But then at my local Best Buy, friendly though they were, they didn't even know were the power button was on the PX-130. wink
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 07:19 PM

Sounds good Sam - the PX-150 looks like it may further reinforce Casio's reputation as a serious player in the DP world...especially at this price level.

On a separate note, is there a reason you do not mention Casio and Roland in your signature?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
The first of our PX-150's arrived. I unboxed one this afternoon and while a couple of things stood out to me, I am overall very pleased.

What were the couple of things that "stood out" to you?
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 11:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
On a separate note, is there a reason you do not mention Casio and Roland in your signature?
And Yamaha as well. I guess it's less conventional on the Piano side of the forums. Digital sales is still quite a small part of our business but of personal interest to me which is why I participate here. Since I make it obvious that I'm a dealer, I hope there is no confusion over disclosure. I'll put some thought into adding it.
Originally Posted By: dewster
What were the couple of things that "stood out" to you?
On the previous PX-130 & 120, I was satisfied with the normal touch sensitivity, but I immediately had to change to the heavy setting on the PX-150. Also, the sharps were more textured than I expected. The location of the headphone jacks is great for an audio out but inconvenient for...headphones. I've certainly seen that on other slabs. And unfortunately, my display model arrived with a little ding on top.

The touted improvements were pretty easy for me to notice. The Concert grand sound is now much more detailed. The action felt firm. The satin finish is pretty and I love the new knob. I only had maybe 5 minutes with it so far.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/18/12 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
... the sharps were more textured than I expected.

How about the flats? wink
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/20/12 02:06 AM

I keep wondering why Casio and others won't include a digital sound output to the amplifier... Be it optical, coaxial or HDMI.
In an old thread we speculated that maybe this was to prevent you from doing perfect digital recordings of the samples, but now that they have included perfect digital recording straight to USB... The lack of a digital sound connection to the amplifier is even more painful.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/20/12 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Miguel Lescano
I keep wondering why Casio and others won't include a digital sound output to the amplifier... Be it optical, coaxial or HDMI.
In an old thread we speculated that maybe this was to prevent you from doing perfect digital recordings of the samples, but now that they have included perfect digital recording straight to USB... The lack of a digital sound connection to the amplifier is even more painful.

Casios are always designed to be cost effective, so it is unlikely that they will add anything that requires so much as an extra jack unless they think it is a feature many people would want or might help convince them to buy. (And I'm not saying that adding digital out IS as simple as an extra jack.)

Personally, I wouldn't find a digital out very useful. What's your application for it? (I guess I'm thinking, if I was so concerned with recording pristine audio quality into my DAW that I wanted to bypass Casio's DACs, I'd just run a software piano in the first place and get a better piano sound besides!)

If they asked me for what I'd like to see added, it would be things that are more performance oriented. For example, many Roland and Yamaha pianos have had knobs or sliders that make it easy to adjust the balance of split/layered sounds as you play, I miss that. Or (especially on the more controller oriented PX3) it would be nice to see a mod wheel and a jack for an expression pedal. I think stuff like that would be more useful to more people than a digital out.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/20/12 06:11 PM

I'll take all of the above, please. smile
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/20/12 10:32 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Personally, I wouldn't find a digital out very useful. What's your application for it?


Plugging the piano to my sound system without any interference or signal degradation.

Nowadays, even a $175 iPod Touch has digital audio out (with an adapter).
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/20/12 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Miguel Lescano
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Personally, I wouldn't find a digital out very useful. What's your application for it?


Plugging the piano to my sound system without any interference or signal degradation.

The sound system is analog, though. So no matter what, you're converting digital to analog, and the DAC in your sound system isn't necessarily better than the DAC in the keyboard. Is it just a matter of avoiding cable issues? If that's the case, the best feature (for long, interference-free runs) might be to have a balanced output. Though you can pretty much add that with a direct box.
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/21/12 12:41 PM

Oh. Thanks for the info. thumb

-----

Hey, Mike, look for "Vika goes wild" on YouTube and try to get her on board. She's a piano goddess. She has an expensive Roland supernatural stage piano, and I'm wondering what she could get from the new Privias. thumb
Posted by: torhu

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/21/12 06:08 PM

Quote:
She has an expensive Roland supernatural stage piano, and I'm wondering what she could get from the new Privias.

Hard to tell if it's SuperNATURAL (sorry for the ALL CAPS, blame Roland) since it's an RD-700GX. Which is only SN if the SN expansion board is installed. It sounds pretty good, but as we all know, the main problem isn't at the listener side, but at at the performer side. I still feel like trading my NX for a GX right now laugh
Posted by: Carlos Almeida

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 12:47 PM

New promotional video to the new range of Privia digital pianos by Casio Australia smile

Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Carlos Almeida
New promotional video to the new range of Privia digital pianos by Casio Australia smile

Thanks!

PX-750 (@4:10): "Unlike most digital pianos, which use compressed waveforms to generate sound, our new lossless audio compression means you'll enjoy the purest sound we've ever offered in a Casio digital piano"

I'm trying to figure out what the heck this means. DPs might use something like delta compression to reduce storage size, but that's lossless. I'd be pleasantly shocked if these new Casios aren't stretched loopers - to me those are some of the most egregious lossey compression schemes you can use.

They come right out and say the PX-850 has string resonance (key sympathetic resonance) and it seems all of the other models have pedal sympathetic resonance.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 05:54 PM

Isnt the PX-150 supposed to be out today? I can't order it online...only pre-order!
Posted by: mrcpro

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Isnt the PX-150 supposed to be out today? I can't order it online...only pre-order!


J&R has 10 of them in stock as of now. It's the only place I've seen 'em.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 06:21 PM

FWIW, I agree with what Dewster said about the lossless compression. Their statement seems very strange to me - it was my understanding that sampled pianos typically use lossless compression. (I believe Kawai uses some kind of spectral modelling - that certainly could be considered as a form of lossy compression, though) I'm wondering whether something got lost (or "added") in the translation between what the engineers stated, and what the marketeers ended up saying.

Greg.
Posted by: kmf123kmf

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
DPs might use something like delta compression to reduce storage size, but that's lossless.


I'm not sure I would assume that DP's use lossless compression for storage of their samples by default. Lossy compression makes great economic sense to a DP manufacturer simply due to superior compression ratio. Lossless compression algorithms are typically around 2:1 where as MP3 or something similar is more like 11:1. If you're the design decision guy in charge of penny pinching, it's a no-brainer.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: kmf123kmf
I'm not sure I would assume that DP's use lossless compression for storage of their samples by default.

Stretching, looping, and limited velocity layering are lossy compression - if really pushed they can put a piano in 50 MB or less, which is something like 100:1. Too bad they generally sound like crap (IMO). But they're easy to implement.

Originally Posted By: kmf123kmf
Lossless compression algorithms are typically around 2:1 where as MP3 or something similar is more like 11:1. If you're the design decision guy in charge of penny pinching, it's a no-brainer.

But if you're a DP coder faced with ancient slow processors and ancient tiny RAM then modern lossy compression schemes like MP3 probably aren't an option. There might be latency issues as well. But I would much rather have an MP3 compressed sample set than a looped & stretched sample set.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 09:18 PM

If Casio are referring to stretching, looping, and velocity layers, I think it is a very strange way to say it indeed.

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster

Stretching, looping, and limited velocity layering are lossy compression

In a sense, I suppose that's accurate, in that they are all methods of "throwing out data" and using the smaller amount that is left to recreate something close to the original. But that's not the typical usage of the phrase, so I wonder if that might not create more confusion. The more common usage, as in MP3 and JPEG, is that data is removed by an algorithm that attempts to automatically determines the "least noticeable" bits of data, so that something perceptibly close to the original (we hope) is generated from the smaller file when subsequently decompressed.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 09:27 PM

@anotherscott: exactly.

Here's some more info:
http://www.casio-intl.com/asia-mea/en/emi/privia/info/#air

Casio do appear to be using the term "compression" in the standard way.

Greg.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/24/12 10:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Carlos Almeida
New promotional video to the new range of Privia digital pianos by Casio Australia smile



is this a demo of the string sounds????
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 03:33 AM

It's an old demo that has been posted several times: it's an excellent demo showing how much marketing people don't understand the customers they make the products for. A long sideshow of some people behind new instruments, without ever giving an impression how the pianos will sound. Completely useless for people looking for the right DP to buy, like you and I. Probably a business presentations for their stock holders.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
The more common usage, as in MP3 and JPEG, is that data is removed by an algorithm that attempts to automatically determines the "least noticeable" bits of data, so that something perceptibly close to the original (we hope) is generated from the smaller file when subsequently decompressed.

Yes, details that are imperceptible (at a given resolution and if not further processed / edited in an extreme way) to the eye / ear are removed during compression phase.

To use MP3 or similar to compress the sample set means the DP needs to decompress lots of samples either on the fly or to RAM. With slower hardware this could make changing from one voice to another a fairly sluggish experience. Given proper hardware it could certainly be done, but from what we've seen re DP technology I have doubts that anyone is actually doing it.

Mike Martin just said over on another thread that the new Casios still have 4 velocity layers. I suppose only time (and testing) will tell if they are stretched / looped. My wife has a student who needs a low-end model ASAP and it would really help if manufacturers were more forthcoming with this kind of info. Every slightly new model has a slew of brand new technical sounding yet cryptic claims associated with it that must be laboriously decoded by the lay public. Which doesn't make for a very pleasant shopping experience IMO.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Mike Martin just said over on another thread that the new Casios still have 4 velocity layers. I suppose only time (and testing) will tell if they are stretched / looped.


Yes samples are looped. Yes there is some stretching. In general you'll find the samples in the new PX-_50 series are about 3 times longer than in previous products. There are also more samples across the 88 note range.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 10:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Yes samples are looped. Yes there is some stretching.


Uh oh...someone in Northern NJ isn't going to be terribly happy...

Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 11:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Yes samples are looped. Yes there is some stretching. In general you'll find the samples in the new PX-_50 series are about 3 times longer than in previous products. There are also more samples across the 88 note range.

Wow, thank you very much for that info Mike!

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Uh oh...someone in Northern NJ isn't going to be terribly happy...

Ha ha! Such a kidder...

Given the 3x larger sample info (revealed earlier) I was expecting stretching & looping, but the compression conundrum threw me for a loop, so to speak.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster

Wow, thank you very much for that info Mike!

Given the 3x larger sample info (revealed earlier) I was expecting stretching & looping, but the compression conundrum threw me for a loop, so to speak.


You're welcome. There is nothing to hide and you're going to find out sooner or later anyway. wink Compared to our competition this is the area where I think you'll find some significant differences.

I'm not about to get into a discussion on the compression issue. The bottom line is the audio quality of the new Privia is substantially better.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 12:08 PM

So refreshing that a manufacturer's representative can come out and just tell us some basic technical information with no fuss and drama. Thank you, Mike. Since all DPs have compromises built-in, it helps those of us who are considering a purchase weigh up the pros and cons of each model more accurately.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 12:15 PM

Mike, whats the word? Why is the PX-150 still listed as Pre-order or not at all on most websites? I've checked Sweetwater and Musicians friend. Kraft music has them..but only on pre-order.

NVM, ITS HERE!!

Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 12:18 PM

Sweetwater and Kraft Music both have them in stock

wink
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
There is nothing to hide and you're going to find out sooner or later anyway. wink Compared to our competition this is the area where I think you'll find some significant differences.

I'm very much looking forward to reviewing them!

While we're on the subject I thought I'd put this out there, no pressure, but to the best of my knowledge no manufacturer has directly supplied a DPBSD MP3. If your or someone at Casio could do so that would be great. Like all DPBSD submitters, I'd work with you guys in the background and wouldn't post the review until we were all satisfied with it. If you can't I completely understand.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 02:59 PM

Kraft was not listing them as In Stock this morning
Posted by: mrcpro

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 04:05 PM

Sam Ash and J&R have them listed as in stock. There are none in Guitar Center showrooms anywhere on the West Coast. I'm waiting for one to show up in PDX.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 07:33 PM

Who's gonna be the first PX-330 user to post a PX-350 impression?
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 08:24 PM

Im going for the PX-150 since it seems to just be a PX-350 without the 17 track recorder
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 08:39 PM

BrokenChord,
The PX-350 has several things the PX-150 does not. Here is a quick list...

232 additional tones
180 rhythms with full accompaniment
The ability to split/layer tones and store registrations for live performance
Adjustable split point
1/4" outputs
1/4" Inputs
MIDI I/O
Stereo .Wav Audio File Recording to a USB thumb drive
SMF Player
LCD Display
and yes, a 17 track recorder.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/25/12 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
BrokenChord,
The PX-350 has several things the PX-150 does not. Here is a quick list...

232 additional tones
180 rhythms with full accompaniment
The ability to split/layer tones and store registrations for live performance
Adjustable split point
1/4" outputs
1/4" Inputs
MIDI I/O
Stereo .Wav Audio File Recording to a USB thumb drive
SMF Player
LCD Display
and yes, a 17 track recorder.


Would you be able to tell us how the speakers are different and also how this generation's speakers are different than the 2009 (x30) models?
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 12:46 AM

Guitar Center in Chicago said they have 26 in the distribution channel, but that the earliest they'd have one in a store is around two weeks from now. Aaarggh!!!! Still trying to figure out the choice between a px-350 and a used MO8.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Marvin Eight
Still trying to figure out the choice between a px-350 and a used MO8.

The MO8 is almost twice as heavy (46.3 lbs) and significantly deeper (15.3") and has BHE not GHS/GH. I looked at a MOX8 before getting my 330 -- MOX8 is awesome, but it's a mountain of wizardry! Depends on what you want. I just wanted a 3-pedal setup with okay piano sound/key feel, and a GM patch set for kicks. I suspect the MO8 doesn't excel at realistic acoustic piano sound -- it's a synth not a digital piano.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 09:05 AM

Those sound like nice features, but not anything I need. Im just a college kid, so I can't justify spending $200 extra on those features. As long as I can plug in my headphones and practice, I'm good.


I have a question though. I purchased a CS-67 from Amazon yesterday since they listed it as compatible with the PX-150 and PX-350...but what about the SP-32 pedal? Kraft Music is bundling the keyboards with a CS-67 and an SP-33. I have not been able to find the SP-33, is it not released?

Thanks
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 09:42 AM

The SP32 will not work with the PX-150 or PX-350. You need a SP33. I'm certain Kraft could sell you an SP33 separately.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 01:20 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: Marvin Eight
Still trying to figure out the choice between a px-350 and a used MO8.

The MO8 is almost twice as heavy (46.3 lbs) and significantly deeper (15.3") and has BHE not GHS/GH. I looked at a MOX8 before getting my 330 -- MOX8 is awesome, but it's a mountain of wizardry! Depends on what you want. I just wanted a 3-pedal setup with okay piano sound/key feel, and a GM patch set for kicks. I suspect the MO8 doesn't excel at realistic acoustic piano sound -- it's a synth not a digital piano.


Yeah, I've checked out both a motif xs8 and a MOX8 as well. Both are ssweeeet keyboards and amazing toys. In fact, I could get either one used for around $1200, but that's nearly double the PX-350's price and funds are tight. The XS8 is also huuuuge, not that I'm gigging with it or anything. I really look forward to hearing and playing the px-350 when it finally arrives at the local GC.
Posted by: kmf123kmf

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The SP32 will not work with the PX-150 or PX-350. You need a SP33. I'm certain Kraft could sell you an SP33 separately.


Does the SP33 support progressive half-pedalling or is it just none/half/full like the SP32?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 04:11 PM

kmf123kmf,
The SP32 and SP33 BOTH support a "progressive half-pedaling." It is a variable controller from 0-127 in MIDI values. Not an on/off switch. The SP33 is actually velocity sensitive. The force at which you press the pedal also impacts the volume of the "damper sound". You can hear the dampers lifting off the strings and this will be either very subtle or more noticeable based on the how quickly you stomp on the damper pedal.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The SP32 and SP33 BOTH support a "progressive half-pedaling." It is a variable controller from 0-127 in MIDI values. Not an on/off switch. The SP33 is actually velocity sensitive. The force at which you press the pedal also impacts the volume of the "damper sound". You can hear the dampers lifting off the strings and this will be either very subtle or more noticeable based on the how quickly you stomp on the damper pedal.

Oooh. One would think that this would be much more visibly advertised on the Casio tech specs web page ... but all it says is "Half-Damper pedal Operation"
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The SP32 and SP33 BOTH support a "progressive half-pedaling." It is a variable controller from 0-127 in MIDI values. Not an on/off switch. The SP33 is actually velocity sensitive. The force at which you press the pedal also impacts the volume of the "damper sound". You can hear the dampers lifting off the strings and this will be either very subtle or more noticeable based on the how quickly you stomp on the damper pedal.

Oooh. One would think that this would be much more visibly advertised on the Casio tech specs web page ... but all it says is "Half-Damper pedal Operation"

Thanks for that info Mike!

"Half-pedaling" is yet another poorly descriptive term in this market space. "Partial-pedaling" or "continuous-pedaling" would have been better. But what can you do?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 05:48 PM

I can change it. I'll get our website updated asap. Which means that might take a while....so much going on. smile
Posted by: kmf123kmf

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 06:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
kmf123kmf,
The SP32 and SP33 BOTH support a "progressive half-pedaling." It is a variable controller from 0-127 in MIDI values. Not an on/off switch. The SP33 is actually velocity sensitive. The force at which you press the pedal also impacts the volume of the "damper sound". You can hear the dampers lifting off the strings and this will be either very subtle or more noticeable based on the how quickly you stomp on the damper pedal.


Thanks Mike. My impression of the SP32 behavior is based on how Pianoteq seems to interpret it. I think it must be the lack of velocity sensitivity that's making it seem like more of a switch.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 06:08 PM

I'm practically certain the SP32 has only three states: off/up, half, and full. Someone in this forum actually reverse engineered it.

Greg.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 06:11 PM

There may be a difference between what happens INTERNALLY versus what is sent via MIDI. I'll do my best to confirm asap. Based on my experience with Privia, INTERNALLY it is operating full range.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 06:21 PM

Here's the thread/post I was thinking of:

Sustain Pedal Recommendation

The author was actually working with the PX-120 (and I'm not sure whether the SP32 is compatible with that model), but the physical interface on my PX-330 (underneath) at least looks the same as the one in the author's writeup.

Greg.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 06:30 PM

Well, I just ordered a PX-150 and the SP-33. CS-67 arrived via Amazon Prime today. I put it together...my roommates wanted to know why I bought a "desk" that doesnt have a table-top smirk
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/26/12 06:57 PM

I have confirmed that via MIDI the SP33 is sending three values. Based on what I'm hearing when I play it, I still believe the pedal is transmitting a full range of values to the internal sound engine. I'm certainly prepared to put foot in mouth if I'm wrong but I've sent a note to our team in Tokyo to confirm.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/27/12 10:47 AM

Update to a topic that was discussed earlier regarding velocity resolution. The new Privia models support the high resolution MIDI velocity specification.

http://www.midi.org/techspecs/ca31.pdf

For every note value sent, Privia is also transmitting the appropriate CC#88 to go with it.



This makes the Privia models an ideal controller for software products such as Pianoteq 4 which support high resolution MIDI. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any other digital piano that supports this specification.

Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/27/12 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
For every note value sent, Privia is also transmitting the appropriate CC#88 to go with it.

...
This makes the Privia models an ideal controller for software products such as Pianoteq 4 which support high resolution MIDI. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any other digital piano that supports this specification.

Wow, great feature! Off hand, I don't know any MIDI controller that supports this except for the $3000 VAX77.
Posted by: eyeghost

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 09:22 AM

After a lot of delay, I decided to order a DP, the PX-350 smile FINALLY.

Started considering different DPs some 6 months ago and then moving and other things got in the way. In the process I thought about MIDI keyboards and software pianos, Kawais, Yamahas and Rolands. At one point I almost bought the F-120, but then the more I tried it, the more I hated the supernatural sound.

After some time I got back into DP-exploring and noticed that Yamaha P-105 and new Casios were on their way. I don't really like the GHS action and featurelessness of the P-105 so I went for the PX-350. Time to end the reign of Roland EXR-3.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 12:23 PM

DPBSD PX-350 review is up!
Posted by: mrcpro

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 12:56 PM

Amazing - a DPBSD review and analysis on a piano that hasn't even been released yet! Thanks dewster and Mike Martin for making this possible. What a nice surprise to wake up to this morning smile

(Posted over here to keep the clutter down in the project thread.)
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 01:27 PM

Quote:
- Fails the silent replay test - note damps @ pedal up.

What is that, and why does pretty much every DP "fail" that test? Just curious. (I didn't want to clutter the official DPBSD thread with that question a few weeks ago, but now seems like a good time to ask.)

Anyways, looks like I'll be upgrading around Christmas to the PX-350 then!
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 02:01 PM

Okee dokee went to Sam Ash this morning and the PX350 had just arrived since my last visit a few days ago.

The speakers IMHO are much improved of those in the PX-150 and seem to cover the entire dynamic range of the piano sounds; I feel as though the PX-150 speakers sound somewhat hallow.

I played all 4 boards (130/330/150/350)and have the following observations:
I am glad I purchased my 130 in April- never felt as though I wished I waited. I will use it as a gigging/open mic/songwriting group piano.
330- I considered this when getting the P95 but did not need the extra sounds at the time.
150- 130 seems more playable with the speakers
350- I did not really cycle though settings but I liked it.
I might get one. What did I like? Of the 7-9 different piano sounds I really enjoyed the Mellow and Dolce ones. I heard more of the lower middle range EQ through the speakers.
I go back to the 130 for a few minutes, and find I like the design of the 350's action. It offers something: Does not have the "plastic" feel of some of the other boards- not that those are unsatisfactory.

Of the 3 boards that are new this week in stores: I like the PX350 the best, followed by the P105 and the P150.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 03:08 PM

Yeah. The PX-350 is kinda awesome. I agree with a lot of your observations. I like the "Classic" and "Dolce" too, and surprising to me, the bright "Rock" piano better than previously.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 03:23 PM

Wonderful to hear that the new PX-350 is such an improvement. I'd love to read comparisons with the more expensive Kawai and Roland models.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Yeah. The PX-350 is kinda awesome. I agree with a lot of your observations. I like the "Classic" and "Dolce" too, and surprising to me, the bright "Rock" piano better than previously.


In your store- what is feedback from your customers? - I agree about the "Rock" piano- it is not your typical brittle sound that normally constitutes that variation on various boards
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 04:47 PM

I havent gotten to take my PX-150 out of the box to play it as I've come down with a cold or something. I feel really bad this week, I hate being sick.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 05:46 PM

You mean since yesterday when the PX-350 arrived? wink Not much yet, but the upgrades of the PX-350 are obvious to even the non-players in my office.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 05:53 PM

Compared to the PX-350 how bad are the speakers on the PX-150?
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Compared to the PX-350 how bad are the speakers on the PX-150?
Bad? They aren't just bad, they are mean mad ...don't let them in your house or they'll burn it down and steal your children. shocked

Don't get over-anxious and nervous waiting. Enjoy your purchase. Even if they were the very best ever for a portable, you should still consider external speakers or quality headphones as part of your investment. That type of small, internal speaker is always limited. Relax, plug it in, and write your own review.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Quote:
- Fails the silent replay test - note damps @ pedal up.

What is that, and why does pretty much every DP "fail" that test? Just curious. (I didn't want to clutter the official DPBSD thread with that question a few weeks ago, but now seems like a good time to ask.)

Good question, and quite germane to that thread.

There's a readme associated with the DPBSD MIDI file at the share point that describes the tests, though parts of it are fairly cryptic. The fine print at the bottom of the DPBSD first post also describe the tests (see #3).

It goes like this:
1. Play a key and hold it.
2. Press the damper pedal.
3. Release the key.
4. Play the same key very lightly so that it doesn't actually play and hold it.
5. Release the damper pedal.
6. Release the key.

The note should continue to play all the way to step 6, though most fail at step 5. I imagine it takes a fair amount of book keeping to follow all the steps. That a few DPs & software pianos actually do is rather interesting.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Compared to the PX-350 how bad are the speakers on the PX-150?
Bad? They aren't just bad, they are mean mad ...don't let them in your house or they'll burn it down and steal your children. shocked

So, I do get and appreciate the subjectivity thing, but how different would you say the PX-150 and PX-350 speakers/amps really are?
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 08:54 PM

Thats what I wanted to know since someone above said that the PX-150 speakers werent that good and then another person said the P-105 was a better keyboard frown
Posted by: Dalek

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 11:14 PM

@Mike Martin: First of all, it's great that you participate in a forum like this. It really improves my perception of the brand Casio significantly. Thanks for the DPBSD also, it really helps!

Previously in this thread somebody mentioned how he wishes piano makers would stop featuring contemporary jazzy pieces in the demos and use something classical that we already know so that we have a frame of reference and we can actually get a feel for the sound.

I would really like to reiterate that sentiment because I really think that the tunes that are being selected to showcase the pianos are unhelpful to the point that it impacts sales negatively.

My town only has a very small instrument shop and I have to order stuff on request. If the demo that you guys made had been something like Nocturne Op 9. 2 by Chopin, had I liked it, you would have made a sale already. As it is, with the demo that was uploaded, I still feel like I know nothing about the piano.

So because you asked specific recommendations, I would say: any classic, slow and nuanced piece that showcases what's going on between key presses, things like sound decay etc. I've noticed some piano makers use very fast classical pieces such as the first part of Fantasie Impromptu to hide the decay, and that isn't cool either.

So I would suggest stuff like:

Nocturne Op 9. 2 - Chopin
Fur Elise - Beethoven
Tristesse - Chopin
Raindrop Prelude - Chopin

But then again I'm a beginner when it comes to digital pianos, I'm sure the audiophiles in the forum can come up with better recommendations to showcase the ability of a piano to perform classical pieces.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 11:38 PM

+1
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/29/12 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
So, I do get and appreciate the subjectivity thing, but how different would you say the PX-150 and PX-350 speakers/amps really are?
I only gave my initial impressions and haven't put much time or thought into how to subjectively describe each. They sound similar to a point but the PX-350 has the extra ingredient that I immediately preferred. I'll have to leave it at that for now.

As for the other, I'm sure the battle will rage on for supremacy at $599. Do you think it is coincidence that they shipped within a week of each other?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/30/12 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
then another person said the P-105 was a better keyboard frown

There is always another person who will say the opposite of what someone else said. That's why ultimately you have to decide for yourself. You might as well be choosing between chocolate and vanilla ice cream based on what someone online said.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/30/12 11:13 AM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
I only gave my initial impressions and haven't put much time or thought into how to subjectively describe each. They sound similar to a point but the PX-350 has the extra ingredient that I immediately preferred. I'll have to leave it at that for now.

I ask because, as I understand it, the sound technology is the same between models, and the main speakers and amps have the same specs:

PX-350 : [13cm × 6cm (rectangular)] × 2 + φ 5cm × 2 (Output: 8.0W + 8.0W)

PX-150 : [13cm × 6cm (rectangular)] × 2 (Output 8W + 8W)

The PX-350 has 2" tweeters, which could make something of a difference I suppose, but with the main speakers this physically small the woofers can likely do full-range pretty well, perhaps with some beaminess and intermodulation at higher frequencies. I'm assuming the woofer enclosures are the same for both models but I don't know that (both DPs have the same external dimensions and likely share many of the same cast parts).

So could this "extra ingredient that [you] immediately preferred" be simply the addition of tweeters?

If so, it would be interesting if the PX-150 has the internal molded mounts for the tweeters, to facilitate retrofitting by inveterate tinkerers like me. Maybe a couple of cheap tweeters and non-polar caps could bring the PX-150 piano sound up to that of the PX-350.
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/30/12 06:27 PM

What about the other sounds? How's the organ and hapsichord?
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/30/12 09:01 PM

My guess is there is better dispersion of the sound with the two additional speakers with the highs and mid range going into the tweeters instead of everything being handled by the woofers. Of course it depends on what kind of crossover might be being used as well.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 09/30/12 11:13 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Of course it depends on what kind of crossover might be being used as well.

And the quality of the driver. Anyone with a spanking new PX-350 feel like cracking it open, voiding the warranty, and taking a few nekid pichures for the cause?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/01/12 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Dalek


So I would suggest stuff like:

Nocturne Op 9. 2 - Chopin



Your first request...

PX-350 Chopin Nocturne Op 9. 2

Note that this was not performed by me. This was done using a public domain MIDI file and the PX-350's Mellow Grand Piano preset.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/01/12 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Your first request...

Mike, you're starting to scare me - but it's a good kind of scared. smile
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/01/12 03:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Dalek


So I would suggest stuff like:

Raindrop Prelude - Chopin



Another request...

PX-350 Chopin Raindrop Prelude


Note that this was not performed by me. This was done using a public domain MIDI file and the PX-350's Concert Grand Piano preset.
Posted by: Dalek

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/01/12 05:40 PM

@Mike. Wow! Thank you so much. You've made a fan for life today for Casio smile

I'm not an expert but the demos sounds great to me. Now to decide between the 150 and the 350...
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/01/12 05:56 PM

Not one of the requests but here is one using the "Dolce Grand" on the PX-350. This preset (and performance) really lets you hear the resonance.

Privia PX-350: Remember - Irving Berlin
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/01/12 05:59 PM


PX-350 Chopin Nocturne Op 9. 2


Man, I could listen to this all day.........then kill myself.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/01/12 06:14 PM

Still havent taken mine out of the box frown

I am working on Passacaglia by Handel right now. Hopefully I can record something that sounds good and share it one day.

For now, I'm battling Strep Throat.


Mike, can you do the same two songs on the PX-150 or would they sound the same?
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 12:59 AM

That Remember - Irving Berlin piece sounds SCARY good. Hard to believe that's a DP playing. Most impressive.
How about something with some good dynamics...like the full 17 minute "Rhapsody In Blue" for piano?! laugh laugh laugh

...or anything else. smile
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 09:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Not one of the requests but here is one using the "Dolce Grand" on the PX-350. This preset (and performance) really lets you hear the resonance.

Privia PX-350: Remember - Irving Berlin

Wow, thanks! Impressive for an entry level DP.
Posted by: Kbeaumont

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 09:45 AM

Sweet! The Irving Berlin piece is quite impressive! Well done!
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 09:58 AM

That's a beautiful piece, and sounds pretty good too!

Is it a MIDI file, Mike, or are you doing the playing? If so, great job!

James
x
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 10:33 AM

Thanks James,
No I neglected to add my disclaimer. That was from a public domain MIDI file.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 11:24 AM

Thanks, Mike, for being so generous with files and information. The guys at Casio are obviously proud of their new models, and judging by these clips (particularly the Irving Berlin), they have every right to be. I don't recall seeing the Dolce piano in a previous model, and am wondering how it's been treated to give it that slightly more natural and ambient sound.

In the end, it makes me start to wonder whether it really is worth spending so much more for the marginal improvements offered by the other brands - especially given the Casio's low weight. If they could just provide really good Rhodes and Wurli variants as well, I'd be tempted.
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 04:00 PM

Perhaps this question was already asked (threads are getting long ;-) , but apart from the improved AP sounds; are the other sounds basically the same as on the previous series , or is that a fresh set of sounds too ?

As far as I understand the AP is much improved, the keybed is improved, the speakers are improved, USB recording is added / improved, but what else is new / better ? I'm referring to the 350 here compared to the 330.

Thanks. J
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 04:12 PM

You want more? smile

The string sounds are new, as well as some of the drum sounds. The EP sounds (everyone has been asking) are nearly identical to the PX-330 series. I honestly have not been through all of the preset tones myself yet. There are more category buttons for selecting accompaniment patterns making it easier and faster to grab the styles you want.

The USB drive can also be used for Audio PLAYBACK, so you can put pre-recorded backing tracks on the drive.

I'm sure there is more but that's a quick list off the top of my head.
Posted by: mrcpro

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 04:12 PM

The names of the organs and EPs are the same in the tone lists of both the 330 and the 350. That doesn't mean that Casio didn't assign new waveforms to the same name, but it doesn't look promising because they did rename the new acoustic pianos.

The only significant addition to the tone list of the 350 that I can see (other than the pianos) is a stereo string sample.

(...and yeah I'm Bill H. over in the other forum. I couldn't use that here because it was already taken.)
Posted by: playliszt

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 04:31 PM

@Mike_M
Those 3 Px-350 piano samples made me a Believer.
In the middle section of the Chopin prelude, I had the mental image of 9-ft Concert Grand bass strings vibrating and growling.

The Nocturne on the Mellow setting evoked how sound Chopin's Pleyel piano might have rendered the sound.

The Berlin on the Dolce Grand sounded both crisp & lush with well-rounded sustains.

Excellent realizations... and good Marketing!
Thanks for the pre-auditions.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 04:54 PM

Anybody else here have an irrational urge to buy a PX-150, crack it open, and cram some tweeters in it? I wonder if they are coaxial to the woofer or separate...
Posted by: pv88

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Anybody else here have an irrational urge to buy a PX-150, crack it open, and cram some tweeters in it? I wonder if they are coaxial to the woofer or separate...


Actually, no... as it's easier just to add some Klipsch Promedia 2.1 speakers to the piano (with each satellite containing an excellent "horn" tweeter) and the bass is taken care of with the additional subwoofer.

However, feel free to rip a Casio apart if you like, as I certainly would be interested to see if it can be improved... laugh

There are other digitals you can buy that already have better speakers.
Posted by: mrcpro

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 05:06 PM

Me neither... I'll just hook it up to my M-Audio GSR12s smile
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: pv88
There are other digitals you can buy that already have better speakers.

True, but for ~$5 in parts one might be able to get that extra something that PianoWorksATL immediately noticed in the PX-350. Maybe I can demo these somewhere soon and listen for myself.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 06:23 PM

Recorded one more today, from a MIDI file again.

PX-350: My Funny Valentine (Dolce Preset)
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 08:55 PM

Mike, can you do the PX-150 now? lol
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 09:29 PM

Here is Joe Sample on the PX-350.

Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 09:36 PM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Mike, can you do the PX-150 now? lol


The PX-150 has the identical piano sample. The mellow piano preset on the PX-150 is very similar to the dolce preset on the PX-350. You may also want to experiment when different touch settings to get this soft delicate sound.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops

In the end, it makes me start to wonder whether it really is worth spending so much more for the marginal improvements offered by the other brands - especially given the Casio's low weight. If they could just provide really good Rhodes and Wurli variants as well, I'd be tempted.


yes voxpops, i'm thinking exactly the same thing. i'm looking at my "traveling board" a yamaha p-250 weighing in at over 70 lbs- a great dp in its day but i'd have to say with the recordings i've just listened to from Mike Martin and the px-350 weighing in @ 25-30 lbs- and at a price of $799.... seems like a no-brainer. i've been wanting to find something i can lug easily to some senior living places to play for the old folks and this sure looks like a winner...particularly for background solo piano stuff..

anybody know what a mint condition p-250 would fetch these days?
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Here is Joe Sample on the PX-350.



Wow, kudos Mike - I'm a huge fan of Joe Sample!

If you get the chance, please ask him what kind of electric piano (Pianet N?) he plays on the Jazz Crusaders' 'Live at the Lighthouse 69' album - I absolutely *love* this crunchy sound! wink




Apologies for the off-topic, post...

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 10:15 PM

I'll ask him. We'll be doing some other videos with Joe soon, but he's leaving on tour this weekend and will be out of the country for the next month. Actually I can probably get an answer from his tour manager.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 10:19 PM

Nice one, thanks Mike!

'Lighthouse 69' is one of my favourite (Jazz) Crusaders albums, and seemingly the only one yet to be reissued/remastered on CD.

Congrats again on a great product!

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: bfb
anybody know what a mint condition p-250 would fetch these days?
No idea about the P250, but I hope you'll use this as an excuse to come up and visit us. We've talked about that before. I still have a PX-330 next to the new PX-350 so you can see the progress...not to mention a couple of acoustic pianos. wink
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/02/12 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Recorded one more today, from a MIDI file again.
PX-350: My Funny Valentine (Dolce Preset)

16MB! Goodness I dragged that into Audacity and re-saved with 145-185 preset and reduced to 6MB.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 01:12 AM

Mike,
Casio offered some decent sounding EP's in the old WK-3000 through 3800 series workstations. Many of these ended up on the discontinued PX410/575 DP. I think some of these sounds are available on the Casio Music site. Are any of these files compatible with the newer WK-7000/7500, XWP1/G1 or the new PX-350? Can they be downloaded into the flash memory?
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 07:06 AM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Mike,
Casio offered some decent sounding EP's in the old WK-3000 through 3800 series workstations. Many of these ended up on the discontinued PX410/575 DP. I think some of these sounds are available on the Casio Music site. Are any of these files compatible with the newer WK-7000/7500, XWP1/G1 or the new PX-350? Can they be downloaded into the flash memory?

I believe the sounds you're referring to were dependent on the old ZPI processing chip, as the ones that have appeared since then (despite similar names) have not sounded the same.

In my opinion, the WK3000 series was something of a Casio classic. I sometimes wish I still had my WK3700 (sold because it was a bit too bulky), as the keyboard patches could hold their own against the Nord Electro of similar vintage.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 07:18 AM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: bfb
anybody know what a mint condition p-250 would fetch these days?
No idea about the P250, but I hope you'll use this as an excuse to come up and visit us. We've talked about that before. I still have a PX-330 next to the new PX-350 so you can see the progress...not to mention a couple of acoustic pianos. wink


i will do that Sam. thanks again for the offer!
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Recorded one more today, from a MIDI file again.
PX-350: My Funny Valentine (Dolce Preset)

16MB! Goodness I dragged that into Audacity and re-saved with 145-185 preset and reduced to 6MB.


Sorry for the large file size but I have a big problem with MP3's and what they do with solo piano. Lower bit rates can destroy the attack portion of notes, adding all kinds of artifacts.
Posted by: bfb

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin

Sorry for the large file size but I have a big problem with MP3's and what they do with solo piano. Lower bit rates can destroy the attack portion of notes, adding all kinds of artifacts.


i hear you...

does this mean i should drag out my 1990's vintage Walkman CD player when i want to listen to piano music while hiking... instead of the iPod....? or is there a more portable alternative for playing a full wav file intstead of MP3...

EDIT: i guess i could play AIFF files on the iPhone/iTunes? but i better dump half of my stuff to accommodate..
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 11:04 AM

FLAC, ALAC, or just 320k MP3s, as Mike posted.
Posted by: dewster

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The PX-150 has the identical piano sample. The mellow piano preset on the PX-150 is very similar to the dolce preset on the PX-350. You may also want to experiment when different touch settings to get this soft delicate sound.

Thanks for that info Mike! Keeps me from having to test for it, and makes the PX-150 @ $599 seem like the deal. I wonder if we'll see 20% off on it around Xmas?
Posted by: JFP

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 03:02 PM

256kb/sec AAC or (better) higher will do, although I agree that file size compression does destroy delicate piano sounds. A lossless compression algorithm will be better, but saves less space. Personally I would stay totally away from mp3. It's really not suitable for capturing the finest details, but very good at destroying them. It's a very old algorithm as well. Much progress has been made since mp3's came around.
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Difference? - 10/03/12 07:03 PM

Love the samples, Mike! thumb

I'm curious... What's the difference between the Privia PX-850 and the Celviano AP-450, besides cabinet style? It seems they have all the same features:
http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/930/
I know you work for Casio USA, but maybe you can contact someone in Casio Latin America for release dates of these babies?
Posted by: MacDan

Re: Difference? - 10/03/12 08:19 PM

I am sure Mike will weigh in here, but I asked the same question of a Casio dealer here in the States today, and they said that they heard the new AP series models probably would not be shipping until early next year, like February.

I'm going to order a PX-750 on Friday.....I can't wait until February.

Dan
Posted by: xorbe

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/03/12 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
We won't see the new AP series here in the US until January 2013.


On page 6.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/04/12 02:02 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The PX-150 has the identical piano sample. The mellow piano preset on the PX-150 is very similar to the dolce preset on the PX-350. You may also want to experiment when different touch settings to get this soft delicate sound.

Thanks for that info Mike! Keeps me from having to test for it, and makes the PX-150 @ $599 seem like the deal. I wonder if we'll see 20% off on it around Xmas?


Well, if we see the PX-150 for 20% off, then the PX-350 for $640 would get me on board in a heartbeat. laugh
Posted by: shgmd

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Miguel Lescano
Love the samples, Mike! thumb

I'm curious... What's the difference between the Privia PX-850 and the Celviano AP-450, besides cabinet style? It seems they have all the same features:
http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/930/
I know you work for Casio USA, but maybe you can contact someone in Casio Latin America for release dates of these babies?


I have the same question - does the Privia PX-850 have the same action and keyboard mechanism as the AP-450 and AP-650? I would like to get a cabinet style piano, and since here in the US the Privia will be here several months before the new AP models, if I like the Privia PX-850' action, then I'll be happy to wait until January for the AP-650.
If anybody knows this answer that would be great! Thanks.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 09:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Miguel Lescano
Love the samples, Mike! thumb

I'm curious... What's the difference between the Privia PX-850 and the Celviano AP-450, besides cabinet style? It seems they have all the same features:
http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/930/


Cabinet is the primary difference. Here in the US (I can't comment for other parts of the world) the Celviano (AP series) also comes with matching bench. In the case of the AP-450 it is a height adjustable artist bench.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 11:47 AM

Just tried the Musician's Friend 15% off coupon code "1492sale" on the PX-150 and no dice.

The list of manufacturers not participating is ginormous, I'm pretty sure the list of those actually participating would be shorter.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 01:01 PM

Dewster- did you call them on the phone? Although a coupon might not work online they tend to work on the phone
I had them give me a $100 of $499 in April for the PX130.
I even got them to send the free stand and headphones a few weeks later that were supposedly excluded.
Posted by: bfb

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Possum P95
Dewster- did you call them on the phone? Although a coupon might not work online they tend to work on the phone
I had them give me a $100 of $499 in April for the PX130.
I even got them to send the free stand and headphones a few weeks later that were supposedly excluded.


i would imagine you got that deal because the model clearance for the 130 was getting cranked up?

i can't imagine casio wants to let retailers discount their new slabs before they're even fully stocked... getting back to voxpops earlier comments- and admitting i haven't seen nor played the new 150/350- it seems the pricing is already aggressive enough, and you wonder what the margins really are for roland etc on these $2000-3000 digitals. are the samples/speakers/action/on board electronics really that much better?
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 04:23 PM

No Mike,

Perhaps these questions we're already answered, but

1) can you adjust the input level of the line-ins on the px350, or are they always full throttle (meaning you have to adjust the output volume of the device you connect). The manual doesn't explain this. It just says attach your device to the line-ins either mono or stereo. That's all...

2) does the new Casio keybed have note off velocity (does it use / send note off velocity data). As far as the manual states in the midi implementation chard, it doesn't . But manuals are sometimes wrong.

3) are there new sound examples of the EP's of the new Casios (or are these examples basically the same as for the previous series) ?

Thanks a lot again for all your efforts and honest answers so far.
Posted by: Duke-N-NY

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/04/12 05:36 PM

Has this happened before? A newly released slab(one that seems popular as well)being reduced in price for the holidays? Are is that just wishful thinkn?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: JFP
No Mike,

Perhaps these questions we're already answered, but

1) can you adjust the input level of the line-ins on the px350, or are they always full throttle (meaning you have to adjust the output volume of the device you connect). The manual doesn't explain this. It just says attach your device to the line-ins either mono or stereo. That's all...


The line input volume is not adjustable. You would need to adjust the volume of the device you're connecting. Not sure if this has been mentioned but whatever is plugged into the line input will also be recorded to the USB drive as audio. smile

Originally Posted By: JFP
2) does the new Casio keybed have note off velocity (does it use / send note off velocity data). As far as the manual states in the midi implementation chard, it doesn't . But manuals are sometimes wrong.


The PX-850 has release velocity. It is not implemented in any other models.

Originally Posted By: JFP
3) are there new sound examples of the EP's of the new Casios (or are these examples basically the same as for the previous series) ?


I have some coming. Probably tomorrow.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Difference? - 10/04/12 08:23 PM

Originally Posted By: bfb
Originally Posted By: Possum P95
Dewster- did you call them on the phone? Although a coupon might not work online they tend to work on the phone
I had them give me a $100 of $499 in April for the PX130.
I even got them to send the free stand and headphones a few weeks later that were supposedly excluded.


i would imagine you got that deal because the model clearance for the 130 was getting cranked up?

i can't imagine casio wants to let retailers discount their new slabs before they're even fully stocked... getting back to voxpops earlier comments- and admitting i haven't seen nor played the new 150/350- it seems the pricing is already aggressive enough, and you wonder what the margins really are for roland etc on these $2000-3000 digitals. are the samples/speakers/action/on board electronics really that much better?


Got the deal 6 months ago- before the current series was announced.

-The My Funny Valentine recording sounds great- that is how to sell a piano!!!!
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Difference? - 10/05/12 11:36 AM

Mike,
Do you know if the patches on the Casio Music Site are compatible with any of the new boards from Casio or are these strictly for boards that had the ZPI sound source?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/05/12 02:13 PM

Galaxy4t,
No those sounds are specific to those ZPI based models. The new line of PX models does not have the ability to edit presets. On the PX-350 you can create your own combinations (called Registrations) and store them, save them to USB and exchange with other users...etc.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: Difference? - 10/05/12 08:23 PM

I've hooked up my keyboard to the CS-67 and have been practicing for a bit.

Im still getting use to the weight of the keys, I was using a Cheapo Casio board to practice on before and the keys weren't weighted. My fingers are getting a workout!
Posted by: ap55

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 09:14 AM

After a lot of very positive statements about the PX-x50 series, I am asking how it compares to other brands. If I could compare the higher end of Casio Px-850 with the pianos Kawai CA95 and Roland HP505, which are a factor of 3 and 2, respectively, more expensive, I would do it. Unfortunately in the store yesterday, which is 140km trip, the x50 series was not available in the show room. The x30 series made already a good impression. The new one is reported to have an even improved action, so I think there are some good element to decide for it. I am not decided what is the best buy. CA95 as well as the HP505 would be also a suitable choice to me. If possible I would save the money and spend it later for an additional acoustic piano.

There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: ap55
There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?

I wouldn't get too hung up on specsmanship. For the sake of argument, let's say that the Casio x50 uses lossless compression and the Kawai MP10 uses lossy compression, but the Kawai sounds better anyway. So then, what good is knowing the compression spec? You just have to see what sounds better to you. Sound quality is never going to reduce to a single spec (or, arguably, any specs at all), so even if one model has one particular improved spec relative to another, that really tells you nothing about which will sound better overall.

Since you ask about Roland SN in particular, I think it's worth pointing out that it's a whole different animal, and the compression question isn't really even applicable, as it is using modeling rather than straight sample playback. I guess in a sense, since a whole lot of sound is being algorithmically generated from a relatively small amount of sample data, you could say that the underlying sample is very lossy compared to the source... but the model used to "regenerate" the missing data is, by their argument, actually superior to what they would have gotten by using extensive samples in the first place. YMMV.

As for initial decay, listening to more samples as they appear can help, and that's an area where there is really no "spec" to look at, it's just ears (though I suppose someone could come up with a way to measure it). Though also, different people are more sensitive to different things. For example, I find quick initial decays to be bothersome, but I rarely notice looping in actual playing; other people's priorities may be different.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 12:21 PM

Originally Posted By: ap55
There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?

I think the lossless thing is probably just adspeak gobbledygook.

Could you point us to the pianoplayer complaints?

I agree with anotherscott, unnatural decay (too quick, or two discontinuous rates in the same note) can be quite distracting, probably more so than looping and stretching. Though if the loop samples are real short you can get a kind of quick "quavering" sound in chords which I've unfortunately become rather sensitive to. Someone need to develop a DP vaccine.
Posted by: ap55

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
[quote=ap55]

Could you point us to the pianoplayer complaints?



Of course:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2433746/4

In order to answer for anotherscott's specsmenship comment. I agree, even if I didn't ask for this answer. I though it was clear - but probably not - that to get the piano under my nails is not as easy. In this case the first is to look into the forum to gather experience, even it is of technical nature it could indicate issues you should know before buying. In order to follow your suggestion and gave it a try I am sure testing it for one hour in the store could be not sufficient. After month you can detect properties on sound and behavior that you dislike. Even simply go into the store and test it out can be a cumbersome activity, if the store is not around the corner and you are not decided yet for one instrument. At this point my post is questioning the forum and preferable those that have one of the x50 pianos at home and better also have played one of the competitors (HP500, CA95). If I could get out with some of the experience gathered while exercising on the instrument this would rule out all the technical spec information and provide a better impression, even if subjective. As I said, it is not easy at all to have direct access to some pianos I could consider to buy.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 02:10 PM

Broken Chord

Can you comment as to the sustain of the notes on your PX-150. In your opinion does the sound decay quickly after hitting a note? The problem is usually very noticeable beginning at the middle C octave and above. What are your impressions about the action?
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 02:11 PM

Originally Posted By: ap55
After a lot of very positive statements about the PX-x50 series, I am asking how it compares to other brands. If I could compare the higher end of Casio Px-850 with the pianos Kawai CA95 and Roland HP505, which are a factor of 3 and 2, respectively, more expensive, I would do it. Unfortunately in the store yesterday, which is 140km trip, the x50 series was not available in the show room. The x30 series made already a good impression. The new one is reported to have an even improved action, so I think there are some good element to decide for it. I am not decided what is the best buy. CA95 as well as the HP505 would be also a suitable choice to me. If possible I would save the money and spend it later for an additional acoustic piano.

There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?


Casio's pianos have historically been compared with lower end pianos like Yamaha's P line. One reason for that is that they are similar price-wise, but they also compare in terms of quality. I haven't had my hands on a PX150, but I suspect like other Casios it's a fine value for the money and a nice improvement over the previous generation but not in the same league as the other pianos you mention, either in terms of action or sound. Both action and sound preferences are subjective, of course. If you like the Casio sound and action, then you win and get to save a lot of money.

I'm actually eager to try out a 150 because if the action really is "good enough" then you can hook it to a software piano and ignore the onboard sounds. Although Casio has been very good at including features that look great on paper (like multi-layer timbres in low end instruments) I haven't been pleased with their sounds subjectively.

As the other posters mentioned, the lossy compression thing is almost surely BS. I highly doubt any manufacturer has lossless samples in any meaningful sense. If they wanted to use a lot of storage space to maximum benefit they would instead use unlooped, unstretched samples with lossy compression. Having a half-second lossless sample repeating over and over instead of a long lossy sample would be a horrible trade. At the end of the day, these hardware pianos don't sound good enough that artifacts of lossy compression would noticeably degrade their sound.

The short decay we notice in most digital pianos is, in fact, a trick they use to hide the limitations of their sounds. I find it to be a serious limitation. Much more serious than loops, stretches, layers, sample compression, or any other corner the manufacturers may choose/need to cut. That's the number one reason I can now only tolerate software pianos.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 02:17 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The short decay we notice in most digital pianos is, in fact, a trick they use to hide the limitations of their sounds. I find it to be a serious limitation. Much more serious than loops, stretches, layers, sample compression, or any other corner the manufacturers may choose/need to cut.

I agree, and find it ultimately depressing that, in 2012, with the ready availability of fast, cheap storage solutions and fast, inexpensive processors, we are still having this discussion.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 05:05 PM

IMHO it is often underestimated which actual piano has been used as a source for the samples and if you like the basic character of this particular piano sound. If not, then all the sample memory in the world , including other tricks like resonance simulations etc wont help. Another recording made of another piano may be more to your liking , even if it is less sophisticated in specs. As I said before, if you don't like the Casio grand in the first place , the new version with longer sample decay will still not help. Same goes for Kawai (uhpi to xl) and any other brands. A big plus for physically modeled pianos where the character of the sound isn't fixed in the sample set being used. A long introduction to state that lossless or lossy compression doesn't bother me; it's how it sounds in the end that determines wether I like or dislike a certain piano. I would never buy a DP on specs alone, e.g. Kronos grand is great on specs, but the sound demos don't convince me, despite the extreme long decays. It has all been said before and it's an open door , I know...J
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: JFP
IMHO it is often underestimated which actual piano has been used as a source for the samples and if you like the basic character of this particular piano sound. If not, then all the sample memory in the world , including other tricks like resonance simulations etc wont help. Another recording made of another piano may be more to your liking , even if it is less sophisticated in specs.


Yes, this is the problem with Yamaha and Kawai digitals. They only sample their own pianos (at least for the main voice), which are fine but not top shelf in my view. Roland and Casio should not be constrained this way, on the other hand.

This is also why I don't like Ivory Italian Grand or Imperfect Samples Fazioli. At the end of the day, sophisticated an expensive as the software and original piano may be, I just don't like them.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 06:30 PM

gvfarns, what do you mean by 'not top shelf'?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/06/12 06:58 PM

Haha, not to make things too personal, of course, but it is my opinion that an EX or a CFX is not as desirable a piano for sampling as a D or a 290, and this is reflected in the relative popularity of these pianos in recording and among software pianos. Both the EX and CFX have a presence, but they are small. They are not most people's unconstrained preference for a general, main classical piano voice. One could certainly argue that years of hearing Steinways in just about every recording has altered our expectation of what a piano sounds like--actually a similar thing is happening with Yamaha and pop piano sounds. Regardless of the reason, I think Kawai and Yamaha digital pianos would benefit from using Steinways as their main piano voice as do software piano suites and acoustic-brand-neutral DP manufacturers. I guess if the day comes that the revenue from the acoustic side is small enough relative to the digital side so that the branding was less of a factor, this could happen. I'm not holding my breath, though.

Come to think of it, I'm not aware of Yamaha using Bosendorfer as a main piano voice (or even a secondary one) even though they own the brand. Go figure.

Of course, all the above mentioned pianos (and the Fazioli I referred to earlier) are top shelf in the sense that they are intended for concerts and are very expensive and well-made. That doesn't make them equally desirable for a digital piano voice in my opinion.

By the way, when I play acoustics I almost always play Kawai or Yamaha. I like them fine in real life, but to me they are consumer grade pianos, as opposed to what I referred to as "top shelf" above.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 04:14 AM

@gvfarns,

This is so much a personal preference that I find it hard to generalize such an issue; I for one am not a big Steinway fan. Not that they are bad of course, but I prefer the sound of some other brands. Steinways are a sort of status-quo in the concert world, which has the advantage that concert pianists know roughly what to expect at each theater , similar touch/ feel and sound, although there will always be slight differences. When you practice and perform on a Steinway it's easier, than when you have to switch from brand to brand and re-adjust. In a way like Windows is a standard. It's not bad and most people are used to it, but that doesn't mean everybody has to like and use it. I'm happy that there is a choice in piano's , both acoustic and digital . If all DP's would be based on a similar Steinway Grand , that would be killing, boring and leave out all people who are not particularly fond of the Steinway standardized sound character. Also we only have to talk about the sound character here because build quality and touch of the original AP are not taken in the equation for a DP. That's only importnat for comparing the AP version...
Posted by: ap55

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 05:27 AM

@JFP

I agree! I am looking for a DP and I am focused to Roland but I am actually not fully convinced from their (like Steinway) sound. So I am happy that I have still a choice with Yamaha, Casio and Kawai different sound. Of course those who prefer Steinway like sound would have more alternative on the DP market if Yamaha and Kawai would adopted in this direction, but this option is less worth then to have the freedom to select the sound you prefer. What a world, if all humans, instruments, animals, etc. should adopt same properties ?

On the other side I can follow gvfarns in that way that it could be desirable to all of us to switch between the instrument, what would mean Roland adds Yamaha sound, etc, etc, sound and Yamaha, Kawai, Casio, adds Steinway sound. May be his thoughts are in this direction, if not I stick on JFPs position. Probably this will come for samples based DP and already entered with physical modeling the DP world.

Nevertheless I feel we go OT.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: ap55
On the other side I can follow gvfarns in that way that it could be desirable to all of us to switch between the instrument, what would mean Roland adds Yamaha sound, etc, etc, sound and Yamaha, Kawai, Casio, adds Steinway sound. May be his thoughts are in this direction, if not I stick on JFPs position.


Basically there are two problems with Yamaha and Kawai's situation in my opinion:

1. They don't provide choice. The comments above center on the desirability of having lots of different piano brand voices. Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos. The mellow piano, for example, may still sounds like a Kawai...just a mellow one. The fact that these two big manufacturers don't use Steinway isn't evidence that the restriction that they use only their own pianos is a good thing or provides the player more meaningful choice.

2. I also don't feel that Yamaha and Kawai are the two best choices for main piano voices for a general piano. This, of course is a matter of opinion, but I think it's a common opinion. If the majority of CD's and concert halls use Steinway, that should be the first piano in a digital as well. And then we should have other brands available in the other voices. That's the way, for example, Ivory is, and there's a reason for it. I wouldn't advocate for every voice to be a Steinway either, but I do think that would be preferable to every voice being a Kawai or every voice being a Yamaha.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 02:34 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos.

I've also felt this, that Yamaha and Kawai having their own AP divisions is something of a gilded cage for all concerned. The prestige aspect of the AP division overshadows and controls the DP division, to the extent to where they can't put anyone else's AP in there, and they don't want to talk about DP specs because that tends to pull people back from imagining there's some kind of magic in their 50MB sample. Toss into this mix their profound reluctance to create anything new that might even slightly internally compete with their very careful product tiering and you can see how we are at the point we're at now - with the real serious people calling it quits on turnkey and rolling their own solutions from existing parts. It's sad really, DPs could totally be kicking serious behind.
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 02:48 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Broken Chord

Can you comment as to the sustain of the notes on your PX-150. In your opinion does the sound decay quickly after hitting a note? The problem is usually very noticeable beginning at the middle C octave and above. What are your impressions about the action?


Hey! I need to play with the keyboard more to answer your question about the sustain of the notes (I haven't paid attention). I have been playing it for 3 days and I don't feel it is any different from a piano (in terms of sound), you also can hear the hammers when you play if you strike a note hard enough. Its cool!

As for the feel, It feels exactly like a Kawai CN33,IMO
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: ap55
On the other side I can follow gvfarns in that way that it could be desirable to all of us to switch between the instrument, what would mean Roland adds Yamaha sound, etc, etc, sound and Yamaha, Kawai, Casio, adds Steinway sound. May be his thoughts are in this direction, if not I stick on JFPs position.


Basically there are two problems with Yamaha and Kawai's situation in my opinion:

1. They don't provide choice. The comments above center on the desirability of having lots of different piano brand voices. Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos. The mellow piano, for example, may still sounds like a Kawai...just a mellow one. The fact that these two big manufacturers don't use Steinway isn't evidence that the restriction that they use only their own pianos is a good thing or provides the player more meaningful choice.

2. I also don't feel that Yamaha and Kawai are the two best choices for main piano voices for a general piano. This, of course is a matter of opinion, but I think it's a common opinion. If the majority of CD's and concert halls use Steinway, that should be the first piano in a digital as well. And then we should have other brands available in the other voices. That's the way, for example, Ivory is, and there's a reason for it. I wouldn't advocate for every voice to be a Steinway either, but I do think that would be preferable to every voice being a Kawai or every voice being a Yamaha.


+1 thumb
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 02:56 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos.

I've also felt this, that Yamaha and Kawai having their own AP divisions is something of a gilded cage for all concerned. The prestige aspect of the AP division overshadows and controls the DP division, to the extent to where they can't put anyone else's AP in there, and they don't want to talk about DP specs because that tends to pull people back from imagining there's some kind of magic in their 50MB sample. Toss into this mix their profound reluctance to create anything new that might even slightly internally compete with their very careful product tiering and you can see how we are at the point we're at now - with the real serious people calling it quits on turnkey and rolling their own solutions from existing parts. It's sad really, DPs could totally be kicking serious behind.


+1 thumb
Posted by: ap55

Re: Difference? - 10/07/12 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Broken Chord

Can you comment as to the sustain of the notes on your PX-150. In your opinion does the sound decay quickly after hitting a note? The problem is usually very noticeable beginning at the middle C octave and above. What are your impressions about the action?


Hey! I need to play with the keyboard more to answer your question about the sustain of the notes (I haven't paid attention). I have been playing it for 3 days and I don't feel it is any different from a piano (in terms of sound), you also can hear the hammers when you play if you strike a note hard enough. Its cool!

As for the feel, It feels exactly like a Kawai CN33,IMO


@Broken Cord. If you follow the link I provided above to the musicplayer forum there are different posters who notice this for the octave above the octave of the middle C and we have to be precise, its not the sustain until the end of the note, it is the initial decay short after hitting the key, which is too fast. For details the second post in the forum #2442499 - 10/01/12 09:06 P should be referred to exclude transmission errors.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 04:02 AM

It is wishful thinking for Yamaha or Kawai to feature samples from any piano but their own.

As for my own wishful thinking, someday concert pianos would be chosen purely on merit. In that world, Steinway would be well represented but they would more likely represent 10% - 20% of halls and recordings rather than the 90% their powerful business interests have built and protected. There have always been more elite concert grands than are given credit and today, I believe there are more than ever.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 04:23 AM

Interesting (OT) conversation going on here.

I like the reference to Yamaha and Kawai operating in a gilded cage in terms of what they can offer on their digitals. I agree to a point with that. They should (but won't) put aside their marketing-led self imposed restrictions and offer alternatives so there is a genuinely interesting palette of sounds for their DP users to choose from. In terms of AP sounds that is the greatest advantage that Nord has. The mellow piano on the Kawais is the same piano (concert grand or whatever) with the treble turned down. No doubt their processing is a bit more fancy than that but boil it down to gravy and that's what they are offering. That's not a choice. Yamaha is only slightly better and then only on a very limited range of their DPs (I'm thinking CPs that offer CF and S6 pianos).

Where I take issue is this idea that Steinway is intrinsically superior. It is the 800lb gorilla with the silver back and uses its power to create a closed shop amongst the classical performing community. And this generates expectations amongst listeners. But I don't think their pianos are superior. Good yes. One of the best yes. But only one of them. I think that the top of the range Yamahas (CF-IIIS and now CFX) and Kawai (EX) are right up there. I prefer the Yamaha sound personally, although it is evolving significantly with the X instruments, but these pianos are right up there. In terms of consistency and reliability they are probably quite superior to most top end European pianos and their expressive potential has been steadily improved and refined over the years to the point where they are absolutely competitive with the best Europeans. And on a very subjective level I think the Yamaha is the best looking concert grand - the sleekest anyway (irrelevant I know!).

Just my thoughts. Off topic though they may be!

Steve
Posted by: bfb

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Interesting (OT) conversation going on here.

I like the reference to Yamaha and Kawai operating in a gilded cage in terms of what they can offer on their digitals. I agree to a point with that. They should (but won't) put aside their marketing-led self imposed restrictions and offer alternatives so there is a genuinely interesting palette of sounds for their DP users to choose from. In terms of AP sounds that is the greatest advantage that Nord has.
Steve


i would...suppose....that the idea floating around in the Yamaha and Kawai brain trust is that by using their own piano samples in well-constructed digital pianos they will hopefully get the owner very used to their distinctive sound and may intice them to eventually "move up" to a Yamaha or a Kawai acoustic instrument.

in one of these blogs someone mentioned that you'd think Yamaha would start incorporating well-sampled Bosendorfer's in their DP's since they now own the name. I wonder about that too, although they may feel people that buy DP's are more inclined to stay in the mass market for acoustics and they don't want to confuse their ears with the very high end Bos sound.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
(I'm thinking CPs that offer CF and S6 pianos).

They also have offered a sampled S700 now and then.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: bfb
in one of these blogs someone mentioned that you'd think Yamaha would start incorporating well-sampled Bosendorfer's in their DP's since they now own the name.

Even if they want to they can't - after shoehorning in a CF and maybe tamping in an S6, there's just no room left in the tiny platinum, jewel encrusted sample ROM all DP manufacturers are forced to use at gunpoint.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 10:39 AM

I'm going for a 'private viewing' of Yamaha's new range of CX pianos this weekend at London's South Bank Centre - so far I've only played on their CFX grand from their new acoustic grand series, and been quite impressed. And the CFX has impressed some classical concert pianists too, including at least one 'Steinway Artist'. But it would be premature to think that Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) could topple Steinway from its stranglehold on the world's concert halls. Steinway has been at the game for far too long, and its 'Steinway Artist' program ensures that most pianists who value having decent pianos to play at concerts are only too happy to be offered the opportunity to be enrolled in it. (Read about what happens to pianists like Garrick Ohlsson who don't play the Steinway game in the Piano Forum).

My own preference is for Bösendorfer, but I admit its tone is very distinctive and most DP users won't prefer it to Steinway. Yamaha has a good following in the pop and jazz world because its bright sound cuts through percussion and brass easily, and many jazz pianists like its percussive quality.

But I suspect that if you ask concert pianists (and assure them that their answers are confidential), you'll find that many of them would, if given the choice, opt for a piano other than Steinway. But only a few have the clout to get what they prefer: Angela Hewitt these days only play on Fazioli, for instance.

However, DP users, if they've played on acoustic grands before, will probably only have experience of Yamaha, possibly Kawai, in addition to Steinway, and it just so happens that those are the commonest sounds they can get from DPs - just not all three in a DP (except for Nord samples). You have to choose......
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 01:53 PM

Has it ever been established what acoustic piano(s) Roland actually samples? I seem to remember that one of the criticisms of their DPs is that the voices are actually sampled from several different instruments, resulting in a kind of "Frankenpiano".

As for having to choose, you can also get Steinway, Yamaha and Bosendorfer on the Kronos, only they call them German, Japanese and Austrian. And with the sample streaming offered in Kronos OS 2.0, it's possible to have even more variations.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Aidan
Has it ever been established what acoustic piano(s) Roland actually samples?


It's Steinway (maybe a mix of more than one individual instrument on some voices). But they mess about with it perhaps more than others do and that gives rise to that slightly over-processed character that it has.
Posted by: slowtraveler

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 03:21 PM


Originally Posted By: dewster
...you can see how we are at the point we're at now - with the real serious people calling it quits on turnkey and rolling their own solutions from existing parts. It's sad really, DPs could totally be kicking serious behind.


When you can go buy an exquisitely sampled or very respectably modeled software piano for $200, one might ask whether a new segment could be emerging in home keyboard instrument market. I believe the manufacturers of hardware DPs should be thinking about this. (Judging by some hints Kawai James gave recently, they in fact are.)

There are certain dimensions along which hardware makers like Kawai, Roland, and Yamaha may not be able compete, IMO. It may not be realistic to expect them to sample every competitor's concert grand, nor to load up their pianos with onboard PC's that would create support and obsolescence nightmares.

Still, one might think they could consider doing things like the following, just off the top of my head:

1. Build some serious acoustic-quality keyboard controllers for customers who would rather roll their own;

2. Beef up auxiliary input hardware and software features so that their DPs' internal amp/speaker systems would play more nicely with outboard gear.

It certainly seems from discussions in this forum (a self-selected sample, I admit) that some DP buyers don't fit neatly into current market segments. I don't think we are numerous enough right now to seriously disrupt existing business models for DPs. And it's not fair to ask the manufacturers to build things they can't make money on. But it seems like there might be enough of us to deserve targeting.

Or maybe some existing turnkey products are good enough and inexpensive enough that (with a few tweaks), most roll-your-own users would be content. It's a puzzle.

B.
Posted by: bfb

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: bfb
in one of these blogs someone mentioned that you'd think Yamaha would start incorporating well-sampled Bosendorfer's in their DP's since they now own the name.

Even if they want to they can't - after shoehorning in a CF and maybe tamping in an S6, there's just no room left in the tiny platinum, jewel encrusted sample ROM all DP manufacturers are forced to use at gunpoint.


yeah, they must think sand is an endangered species
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
1. Build some serious acoustic-quality keyboard controllers for customers who would rather roll their own;


This one is the key. I would love a high quality controller that didn't bother sticking in a bunch of sounds I'm not going to use. Alas, there just aren't enough people (at least in the manufacturers' perception) that want to use software pianos. I'm very disappointed that none of the big manufacturers are willing to make this product.

I'm not a fan of PianoTeq overall, but I think if anyone can push manufacturers into making a high quality midi controller, it's their group of vociferous followers. For that reason I hope their user base continues to grow in size and influence. Though the sampled piano makers' products are awesome, somehow they fail at creating the kind of passionate community that can demand better attention to things like MIDI controllers.

Maybe we need to hire a piano professor somewhere to make some youtube videos talking about why Galaxy Vintage D is the next generation of piano after acoustics and digitals. smile
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 08:55 PM

gvfarns, how about an MP8/MP10 as a controller?
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 10:33 PM

Yeah, got an MP8. It's good. Still, it was expensive when I bought it, and I don't use the onboard sounds. Now the gear geek in me is wanting the latest and greatest action (or perhaps a second piano with a different feel) and doesn't want to pay for onboard sounds.

Probably never be happy until I can build my own, just the way I like it.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 10:49 PM

Well, who knows, maybe one day your dreams will come true? wink

James
x
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 11:51 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Yeah, got an MP8. It's good. Still, it was expensive when I bought it, and I don't use the onboard sounds. Now the gear geek in me is wanting the latest and greatest action (or perhaps a second piano with a different feel) and doesn't want to pay for onboard sounds.

It might be worth looking at the PX-150. Cheap enough that you can ignore the fact that you're "paying" for on board sounds, and it feels quite nice. I'm really eager to hear some reports of people using it to drive a software piano.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/08/12 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Yeah, got an MP8. It's good. Still, it was expensive when I bought it, and I don't use the onboard sounds. Now the gear geek in me is wanting the latest and greatest action (or perhaps a second piano with a different feel) and doesn't want to pay for onboard sounds.

It might be worth looking at the PX-150. Cheap enough that you can ignore the fact that you're "paying" for on board sounds, and it feels quite nice. I'm really eager to hear some reports of people using it to drive a software piano.


Yeah, as a matter of fact, I went to the local piano store and the music store a couple of days ago in hopes of trying one out with this same thought. No one has it. Sometimes it sucks to live in the sticks.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/09/12 05:24 AM

Gvfarn, there have been many hints op pianoworld that the board you're looking for may be around the corner. In several treads about new Kawai gear. I would wait a little while and see what's coming..., then you can still decide between that and Casio's or other offerings.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Difference? - 10/09/12 06:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Well, who knows, maybe one day your dreams will come true? wink

James
x


Such a tease...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/09/12 06:30 AM

Or not...

Posted by: dencarl

Re: Difference? - 10/12/12 09:17 AM

Does anyone know where I can try out or purchase one of these new Casio PX-x50s in Canada?
Posted by: DMK

Re: Difference? - 10/12/12 03:04 PM

PX-350 have arrived in Canada and are available...at least to order. I just ordered mine today!
Posted by: dencarl

Re: Difference? - 10/12/12 04:09 PM

Quote:
PX-350 have arrived in Canada and are available...at least to order. I just ordered mine today!

Very cool. Where did you order it? How much was it?

Inquiring minds want to know!
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 01:07 PM

Just came across this 330/350 comparison video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA
Posted by: EPW

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 02:21 PM

Thanks for the link.
Posted by: RafaPolit

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 02:42 PM

Not so long ago an uncle of mine asked me to help decide what to gift his wife, as she is in her mid fifties and is mostly returning after ages to the instrument, and it seemed that Casio, at that price range (even lower than the 350), did offer the best bang for the buck.

The differences between those 330 and 350 are really noticeable. Interesting options for sub $1000 DPs, that's for sure.

Rafa.
Posted by: DMK

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 03:35 PM

I special ordered through AXE Music out of Edmonton, AB. Cost of 748.13 w/out tax.
Posted by: dencarl

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: DMK
I special ordered through AXE Music out of Edmonton, AB. Cost of 748.13 w/out tax.


Thanks.

I found it at Cosmo Music for $810 before tax.
Posted by: willyboy88

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 05:50 PM

Review on PX-350
http://www.technologytell.com/gadgets/104511/the-casio-privia-px-350-lay-your-hands-on-me/
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 07:34 PM


Quite refulgent, in a volant sort of way.

Note to self: somehow work the line "my squinting tone-full ears" into next DPBSD review.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 09:19 PM

"Refulgent"? "Volant"? ....seriously?
Posted by: RafaPolit

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 09:29 PM

Yeah, oh my... celestial sound excellence... colossal harmonic sound... he really didn't like it that much huh? smile LOL! Weird review. We have a sports commentator that talks like that over here, quite annoying.

Rafa.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 09:55 PM

Originally Posted By: RafaPolit
Yeah, oh my... celestial sound excellence... colossal harmonic sound... he really didn't like it that much huh? smile LOL! Weird review. We have a sports commentator that talks like that over here, quite annoying.


Stuart Hall on BBC Radio Five Live is a broadcasting legend in the UK.



Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 10:09 PM



I'm not sure, but I think he likes it.
Posted by: RafaPolit

Re: Difference? - 10/18/12 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Stuart Hall on BBC Radio Five Live is a broadcasting legend in the UK.

Yeah... not on the same league though, the guy in the video you embedded would be Shakespeare next to the one I'm talking about smile . LOL!

Rafa.
Posted by: warlock214

Re: Difference? - 10/19/12 09:48 AM

Ditto
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Difference? - 10/19/12 08:39 PM

Spoke to MF when ordering the P105 tonight; last week GC had $150 off of $799 + and they said I could have the 350 for $679 tonight. Gonna wait though bit.

I think the 850 looks fantastic, but the output of the 350 would be sufficient for me
Posted by: xorbe

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 05:29 AM

I'm in Barcelona now, and spied a PX-150 in the music store around the corner from the hotel ... gonna go try it today sometime, so I can compare to my 330
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 05:38 AM

My PX-350 is on order - unfortunately delivery has been put back a tad, estimated Oct 25 now.

In the meantime, here it is in a band setting - Steve LeBlanc hitting it out of the park with Jason Bonham's Led Zeppelin Experience. The EP is on a Receptor but the piano solo starting about 3.00 is the Casio's internal piano.

Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 06:38 AM

Thanks for the clip Aidan...I need to dig out my copy of 'Houses of the Holy'! wink

By the way, how do you know the keyboard is a Casio (PX-350), and that a Receptor is being used for the EP (with Leslie)? I guess the Nord on top is for organ? wink

Cheers,
James
x

Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 07:55 AM

James, Steve shared the tech info when posting it on the Keyboard Magazine forum.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 08:00 AM

Ah, I see, thanks.

James
x
Posted by: Casio PX 350

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 11:06 AM

I just got my Casio Privia PX 350, without testing cos i read a lot of reviews.

But i'm quite disappointed. I have to say it sounds a little weird... I'm not sure if it's a problem with speakers, but all the piano voices have this very very muffled sound.

I have the SP 33 pedal unit and the CS-67P special stand. The sustain pedal is a little wonky, the notes don't hold as long as i thought it would. sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.

From my experience with the Korg SP 250, and the Yamaha P 155, when I hold on to the sustain pedal and press a note with the "piano layered with strings" voice, the piano and strings volume should fade off at roughly the same time, with my foot still on the pedal.

However with the PX 350, the strings voice continues to maintain the same volume and goes on indefinitely as long as my foot is on the pedal. So the piano sounds fine, but there's a whole mass of strings overlapping one another when ever i play a song with the layered voice.

Is this how the PX 350 supposed to sound and work? Or did i get a faulty set?

Would appreciate some help here.

Thanks!
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 11:39 AM

Mike_Martin,
Kawai James

When can I buy PX-350 (or a Kawai) 15/16 version?

When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys?
It is mind boggling that nobody does that.
Those standards are well established for years now.
For expensive acoustic pianos there are replaceable keyboards.
But no cheap digital pianos??? Or at least 88-key midi controllers?

The market for them would be huge. They are desperately needed for children and women to reach octaves without pain and for men with smaller hands to reach 10ths comfortably, especially that C#-F.
I would not be surprised if most preferred smaller keys.
We know from feedback about the acoustic piano keyboards of those sizes how easy it is to adapt to them.

And there is no technical difficulties involved: you can very simply make the keyboard with the same identical action, no need to hit real strings here.

And no risk involved either:
It would be practically the same cost to produce them.
And no R&D needed, just shrink the goddamn thing.
You can even leave the size of the whole piano/keyboard unchanged.
And you can start small and expand according to the demand.

There is a gold mine here waiting for a company which produces them first.

On another note: come on, anybody got PX-150 or PX-350 yet?
Where are your impressions, detailed feedback about the differences in the action and sound compared to 130/330?






Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 11:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
with the PX 350, the strings voice continues to maintain the same volume and goes on indefinitely as long as my foot is on the pedal.

In my experience (and IMO, fortunately), that is the more common way it is done on most keyboards. It actually more accurately reflects real instrument behavior, since real strings do not "fade away" as piano notes do. And practically speaking, it is particularly desirable if you want the string effect to sustain until you specifically release it, which can be useful especially when you're using multiple keyboards.

It does mean you may need to be a little more cognizant of your sustain pedal techniques... if the strings are overwhelming the piano due to the infinite sustain, odds are good that you're being heavy-footed in your use of the sustain pedal in the first place.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 11:57 AM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
And no risk involved either:
It would be practically the same cost to produce them.
And no R&D needed, just shrink the goddamn thing.

Tooling up to produce a new set of keys could easily be a 6-figure investment. Would it generate more sales? I don't know... I've never heard anyone request this before. And young kids and small women have successfully learned to play on standard size pianos, probably for centuries.

Interestingly, for some reason, there does seem to be some variation on unweighted actions. I have a Yamaha S30 where the keys are just slightly narrower than normal, and an old Studiologic/Fatar where they are slightly wider.
Posted by: jmarch

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 12:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350

From my experience with the Korg SP 250, and the Yamaha P 155, when I hold on to the sustain pedal and press a note with the "piano layered with strings" voice, the piano and strings volume should fade off at roughly the same time, with my foot still on the pedal.

However with the PX 350, the strings voice continues to maintain the same volume and goes on indefinitely as long as my foot is on the pedal. So the piano sounds fine, but there's a whole mass of strings overlapping one another when ever i play a song with the layered voice.


I auditioned a PX-350 on Wednesday and experienced this as well. Not having all the extra sound and pedaling editing options that a more expensive board might have leaves you without any real options to deal with it. I was really looking forward to this board, but this just might be a deal breaker for me, unfortunately.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 12:45 PM

Given the price and weight bracket of this thing, I'm guessing that anyone who looks at the PX-350 as anything other than principally a digital piano, with a few "extras" of varying quantity thrown in for good measure, is going to be disappointed. You're also not going together the best out of it if you rely on its internal speakers for amplification.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Aidan
In the meantime, here it is in a band setting - Steve LeBlanc hitting it out of the park with Jason Bonham's Led Zeppelin Experience.
That is awesome. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by: mrcpro

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350

However with the PX 350, the strings voice continues to maintain the same volume and goes on indefinitely as long as my foot is on the pedal. So the piano sounds fine, but there's a whole mass of strings overlapping one another when ever i play a song with the layered voice.

Is this how the PX 350 supposed to sound and work? Or did i get a faulty set?


There are seven string patches to choose from for layering with your piano. Do they all do this? (Don't know myself...)
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Tooling up to produce a new set of keys could easily be a 6-figure investment

Or it may be enough to tell a robot the desired width of a key. Japanese factories run without a single worker and can flexibly produce anything they want to. Or so I heard smile

Originally Posted By: anotherscott


And young kids and small women have successfully learned to play on standard size pianos, probably for centuries.

.

Read the feedback about replaceable keyboards for grand pianos.
Women cry of joy and cannot stop. For the first time in their lifes they can play without pain. And they adjust to it in five minutes. I guess, if you are a stride piano player, it might take a bit longer...

And for me that C#-F is pretty difficult too.
Especially on Casio. Its keys are pretty stiff.
I have a keyboard made by Fatar where it is much easier to reach - because the keys move sideways, I can squeeze them a few millimeters and that is enough for a huge difference.
Still, to play such tenths quickly as in a chromatic scale and at high velocity - 15/16 would be perfect for me.

The difference on a tenth is 0.625 of the white key width for a 15/16 size keyboard. For 7/8 it would be what, 1.25 ? All the difference in the world.

I would buy one 15/16 immediately. Maybe even 7/8.
Whoever makes it first.
In fact, I would buy 7/8 for my sister too.
Count two keyboards immediately sold. You hear, Casio?
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
I have to say it sounds a little weird... I'm not sure if it's a problem with speakers, but all the piano voices have this very very muffled sound.
2 things...some of the piano sounds, specifically mellow piano, dolce piano and classic piano are volume limited while others like Concert, Studio and Rock, etc. are not. Not sure yet why, but this is how our PX-350 models are. Also, we had a different model with a speaker out of phase that created wonky performance. It's an easy fix (or possible exchange) if that is your issue. It affected multiple aspects of playability, not just the sound coming out.

As anotherscott pointed out, the real strings can't produce slow decay. Synth strings or pads may be different.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
Mike_Martin,
Kawai James

When can I buy PX-350 (or a Kawai) 15/16 version?


I cannot speak for Casio, however I very much doubt Kawai will ever produce a digital piano that does not feature full-sized keys.

The same is true of our acoustic pianos.

While I appreciate that the demand exists for such a product, I do not believe it's significant enough to warrant the considerable research, development, and production costs.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: BrokenChord

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 09:15 PM

Had a weird issue today where I was playing with the volume knob turned to about 20% and I played a chord and the sound became very low and would not change regardless how high I turned the sound. I had to turn the keyboard off to get it back to normal.
Posted by: RafaPolit

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 11:09 PM

BrokenChord, was the piano hooked via MIDI? Sometimes midi tracks on a computer or synths sending signals, etc. can get the part volume to very low settings, which are not controllable through the main volume control.

Of course it could be a defect, but I have had such behaviors via midi several times.

Best regards,
Rafa.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: Difference? - 10/20/12 11:23 PM

Count me in as another that would buy a keyboard with slightly smaller keys.
Posted by: w i l l

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 07:49 AM

Does anyone have any impressions of the SP-33 pedal board?

I'm reading some not so favourable reviews of the previous SP-32 (but not the majority), so I wonder what changes were made in the SP-33... Mr Martin?

I'm contemplating going with the Casio stand/pedal unit after I was initially not going to bother, mainly for the pedals as I honestly don't know what my other options are. I'm sure I don't really need 3 pedals at this early stage of my piano career but the pedal that comes with the 150/350, though I'm sure does the job, looks dinky and would probably sink into the carpet where I'll have the board most.

Also, Mike, I noticed the Casio site states the SP-33 as optional for the 150 and on the 350's page there is only mention of the SP-32 which I think could be updated?
Posted by: xorbe

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 02:29 PM

Well I was unable to try the PX-150, as the store was closed. I spotted it again by chance in a mega-mall, but they were uninterested in letting a tourist touch any of their wares. Haha oh well, I'll go to GC when I get back home.
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
Mike_Martin,
Kawai James

When can I buy PX-350 (or a Kawai) 15/16 version?


I cannot speak for Casio, however I very much doubt Kawai will ever produce a digital piano that does not feature full-sized keys.

The same is true of our acoustic pianos.

While I appreciate that the demand exists for such a product, I do not believe it's significant enough to warrant the considerable research, development, and production costs.

Kind regards,
James
x


The demand might be much greater than you think.
It's just that it does not even occur to people that they could demand such a thing. But once such keyboards become available, it is quite possible that almost nobody would buy keyboards with full-sized keys.
These "full sized" keys were needed for acoustic pianos for technical reasons, not because they are of optimal size for playing. But those technical reasons no longer exist. They were solved.

And there are no technical reasons whatsoever for digital keyboards.

I think it is very stupid not to fill that need. There is a big market share waiting to be taken.

As to acoustic pianos, better grands have modular keyboards, so that the whole keyboard can be removed and replaced.
There are youtube videos demonstrating that it can be done in less than 2 minutes.
So you don't have to produce acoustic pianos specifically with 15/16 or 7/8 size keys

But such digital pianos are badly needed and it is very easy and very cheap to produce them.
You can really shrink the keys without almost any R&D costs, as to retooling, depending on the flexibility of your production lines, those costs might be pretty low too.

And you (or somebody else) could start with empty midi controllers, just 88 keys with good piano action.

The problem here is very similar to the absurd situation with computer keyboards.
There also was a technical reason in mechanical typewriters not to place keys in straight columns, and this reason is long gone, and almost all the keyboards are still produced for two right hands. Impossible to type with the left hand with the proper touch-typing technique. Even on so called "ergonomic" keyboards, such as the Microsoft Natural keyboard - they are just as bad as all the others.

So stupid tradition wins against the reason every time.
That drives me mad.

With computer keyboards I am able to buy a proper one, although I have to pay 10 times more for it ($300 instead of maybe $30).
With piano keyboard I am desperate enough to pay more too, perhaps not 10x more, though, because they are much more expensive than computer keyboards.
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 04:26 PM

Can somebody comment on the new PX-350 action compared to Kawai ES7 (RH II) action?
I don't care about the price difference, just witch has a more realistic and more responsive piano action.
I have no chance to try them yet. But I could order one blindly.

And this artificial ivory coating of keys? Is it identical (perhaps from the same source) or does it feel better on one of them?

And on which of those two keyboards it is easier to reach 10ths? Are the keys of equal width, are they equally stiff and equally resist squeezing together?
Every millimeter is important here.

As to the piano sound, Kawai sounds much better to me (at least in youtube videos).
Even though Casio is using Steinway samples for PX-350 (true?), and I love Steinway sound.
But in youtube videos, PX-350 does not sound much like Steinway to me.
I miss that sweet-sour classical guitar-like Steinway sound.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
The demand might be much greater than you think.


Yet not significant enough for Yamaha, Kawai, Roland, Casio, Korg, Kurzweil, Fatar, etc. to justify producing them?

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: xorbe

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 05:50 PM

That's kinda like when I found out I could buy slightly shrunken acoustic guitars -- though it affects the sound a little due to shorter strings.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 07:16 PM

Played with the PX-350 for an hour this afternoon at GC. Really liked the key action. Nice and firm. As for the textured keys, I didn't mind it on the blacks, but don't really like it on the whites. Maybe it's because I'm so used to my Yamaha acoustic piano and Kurzweil which have glossy keys. I prefer glossy because my fingers glide easier. I also suspect that the texture of the Privia's "ivory" keys will pick up finger dirt and grime quicker. To each his own, I guess. Additionally, the volume doesn't get loud enough for my liking in the bass range due to the speaker size. For in-home use, I'm sure it'll be fine, but I'd hook it up to an amp or outboard speakers to bring it to its full potential.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 09:31 PM

I just ordered the PX350 from MF for 680. I had considered waiting for the 850, one of the reasons being the extra power, but I found for the room I will be using it in that I liked the speakers.

In addition, I figure when I am in the mood I can hook it into my KRK R5's, which I think are better suited for the piano than the Mackies
Posted by: mg64

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/21/12 10:34 PM

Edit
Posted by: Casio PX 350

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 11:03 PM

Originally Posted By: mrcpro
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350

However with the PX 350, the strings voice continues to maintain the same volume and goes on indefinitely as long as my foot is on the pedal. So the piano sounds fine, but there's a whole mass of strings overlapping one another when ever i play a song with the layered voice.

Is this how the PX 350 supposed to sound and work? Or did i get a faulty set?


There are seven string patches to choose from for layering with your piano. Do they all do this? (Don't know myself...)


Yes, all strings do that frown

Not only does the strings produce the infinite sustain effect, but ALL voices with the "trailing type voices" like piano pad, choir, crystal... They all produce this... so I can't quite layer anything. Cos the peddling for the main piano voice is different from the layered voice.

Gosh. Not happy at all.

Any way to let the notes decay naturally?

I just called the service center to look into the muffled speakers... They sounds so different from piano Man chucks demo...
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: Difference? - 10/21/12 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Any way to let the notes decay naturally?
Again, I hate to sound like I'm trying to make a point, but these instruments do not decay naturally. On patches with decaying strings or decaying pad, the decay is artificial and varies from maker to maker. For example on my Roland, the piano is commonly layered with a decaying strings or decaying choir layer, but those are the exceptions compared to all other strings or synth sounds.

The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.
Posted by: Casio PX 350

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 12:25 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
with the PX 350, the strings voice continues to maintain the same volume and goes on indefinitely as long as my foot is on the pedal.

In my experience (and IMO, fortunately), that is the more common way it is done on most keyboards. It actually more accurately reflects real instrument behavior, since real strings do not "fade away" as piano notes do. And practically speaking, it is particularly desirable if you want the string effect to sustain until you specifically release it, which can be useful especially when you're using multiple keyboards.

It does mean you may need to be a little more cognizant of your sustain pedal techniques... if the strings are overwhelming the piano due to the infinite sustain, odds are good that you're being heavy-footed in your use of the sustain pedal in the first place.


thanks for the reply, allow me to elaborate further.

When I hold on to the sustain pedal and press "c", it holds the note at the same volume indefinitely, even after I let go of the key. And when I press an 'e', it's now the 'c' and 'e' overlapping at the same volume indefinitely., and so on.

So when I play a song with the voice "piano" layered with any "pad", "strings", or most voices, the parts where I need to sustain with the piano (e.g. 4 to 8 notes) sounds ok, but the strings or other layered voices just keep overlapping to the point it becomes an entire mass of sound for the duration which the pedal is held on., so it's not a matter of pedal technique. Its either you pedal or you don't. frown

I hope it makes sense, cos this is the first digital piano I came across with this "functionality"


Posted by: Casio PX 350

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 03:30 AM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Any way to let the notes decay naturally?


The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.


Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this frown

If you watch this vid of mike playing the px130, he creates a nice layered sound with piano and strings with some pedaling at 2.13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E90JGRaFkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 03:50 AM

Casio PX 350, does the PX-350 offer a 'Damper Hold' setting, allowing you to specify how the damper pedal affects string and organ sounds?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: pv88

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 04:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this frown

But with the 350, on the same layered voice setting, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, as long as the sustain is pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.


@Casio PX 350,

Sorry to hear of your issue, however, I don't particularly like having to be the bearer of additional bad news:

Sounds like you should report this sustain issue directly to Casio, as it is another instance of a problem that may have been overlooked and not addressed at R&D, before the pianos were released.

I had both a Casio PX-130 / Casio AP-620 that had a sustain pedal resonance issue where the sustain pedal (and, "sounds") would stick at various random times, and, that is one reason I switched my ownership to a Kawai EP3 / Kawai CA95, instead. This issue (to my knowledge) has still not been addressed or fixed with the three Casio's I had previously owned.

It's just my opinion, but I would stay away from (or, not purchase) a Casio until I knew for sure that these issues have been resolved. There are plenty of other choices to consider when buying a digital for under $1,000. And, you will do better to spend more than $1K to get a really nice piano.
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 04:48 AM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
That's kinda like when I found out I could buy slightly shrunken acoustic guitars -- though it affects the sound a little due to shorter strings.


Yes, exactly. Especially the 640mm string length is becoming increasingly popular standard. But there are even smaller sizes available.

And nobody can really measure the potential popularity of 7/8 or 15/16 piano key sizes. Because there are no such digital pianos available at affordable prices, only $20,000 keyboards for $100,000 grands, and $10,000 uprights, as far as I know.

But Kawai James keeps insisting that there would not be significant enough demand for the major digital piano manufacturers to get involved. I think he is completely wrong.
80% of women and 20% of men are in the category with clearly hands too small for the current discriminatory piano key size.
But even though I myself, according to Steinbuhler scale, have above average hand (over 24 cm, or over 9.5") I still desperately need that reduced size keyboard!

So I would not be surprised if today's "normal" size becomes history.

But there is a catch 22, unfortunately, that needs to be broken.

The piano manufacturers don't want to make pianos for everybody, they continue making them only for the small market of freaks with huge hands smile
They are not interested in making money, it seems.

Kawai James, remember, you (I mean, the evil piano manufacturers) are denying the possibility of playing piano to the majority of people.
Your potential market is not only among the pianists who would switch to smaller keyboards, but also the huge population until now not allowed by you to play piano.
The potential market is enormous !!!


Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 06:12 AM

pv88, I don't believe there is any problem with Casio PX 350's erm...Casio PX-350. Moreover, the sustain pedal issue that you claim affected your previous Casio instruments is most likely unrelated.

Originally Posted By: pv88
You can contact Mike Martin directly, here:

snip



Unless Mike wishes for his work email address/telephone number to be posted on a public forum, may I politely suggest you edit your post to remove his information.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 06:16 AM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
The potential market is enormous !!!


I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 1/16 of the size of the standard digital piano market.

However, by all means, please feel free to submit your suggestion for smaller keys to Kawai via the official contact methods.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 06:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
The potential market is enormous !!!


I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 1/16 of the size of the standard digital piano market.

However, by all means, please feel free to submit your suggestion for smaller keys to Kawai via the official contact methods.



Yes, it certainly has to be done.
Another way, possibly, is to contact lawmakers, our representatives.

There could be a law against discrimination forcing piano makers to make pianos suitable also for the majority of people.
Lack of such pianos is simply cruel.

BTW, Kawai James, are your plastic RH-II keys on ES7 hollow, empty inside?
I mean, could I remove the right corners of the keys with some file? Just from the top of the key. That would allow to reach the most difficult 10ths easier but should not affect playing those keys, I think. A substitute for smaller keys.

This way, just the principle here, I think it is clear what I mean :

instead of:

I....I
I....I
I__I

make

I...I
I...I
I_/

If, for example, E key is "improved" this way, then it is easier to reach C#-F
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
I mean, could I remove the right corners of the keys with some file?


I expect you probably could, yes.

However I would strongly recommend against doing so, because you'd ruin a perfectly good keyboard.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 07:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
I mean, could I remove the right corners of the keys with some file?


I expect you probably could, yes.

However I would strongly recommend against doing so, because you'd ruin a perfectly good keyboard.



I am hoping not to ruin it.
Just the opposite. To make it usable without pain.

I have two concerns, though:

1. That I might open up a hole in a corner of the key if it is hollow and pretty thin.

2. That some small particles might drop into the keyboard and get into the mechanism or on the sensors.
To avoid that it would be best to remove the keys first before filing them, but I don't know if it is easy to do so.

Anyway, at this point I am only thinking about buying ES7 (or PX-350 - depending on which action is better) and then filing the keys.

Maybe I will try this improvement on PX-330 first to see if it works.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 07:46 AM

You will void your warranty I suppose. Are there not some small keys keyboards on the market today ? Probably not the same keybed quality, but nevertheless.
Posted by: jmarch

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 08:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Any way to let the notes decay naturally?


The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.


Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.


But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.


Thank you for being able to articulate what I was unable to.

The action on this thing is incredible for its price point--it really is much better than the PX-130 and pretty much, in my opinion, anything else less than over twice its price that I've tried. However, the layer thing just kills it for me.

I understand that it's a digital piano first and that the other sounds are just icing, gravy, or whatever expression you'd like to use; however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

I really wanted to like this board. Really, really. I held off on buying anything for 3 months so that I could give this one a go, but I think I might have to buy something else now. Maybe the issue is my inexperience or that I had expectations that were too high (or maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.

In either case, Casio should be super, super proud of what they've accomplished. The action on this thing is just fantastic. And that they can put that kind of action in a board at that price and that weight, well, they should be inspiring some real fear in their pricier competition.

A big Kudos to Casio regardless if I can use their board or not. : )
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 09:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
so it's not a matter of pedal technique. Its either you pedal or you don't. frown

It can still be a matter of pedal technique, it sounds like you probably need to release and re-press the pedal more often.

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
If you watch this vid of mike playing the px130, he creates a nice layered sound with piano and strings with some pedaling at 2.13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E90JGRaFkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

There's a good example. I'd say he's re-pedaling after every 2 beats.. which is also what I'd call proper pedaling technique for the passage, regardless of whether or not there were layered strings, so again, it comes down to understanding how to use the pedal. I'm pretty sure the PX-130 strings behaved just as they do on the PX-350.

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
this is the first digital piano I came across with this "functionality"

I only came across the behavior you prefer once, and thought it was a bad idea. ;-)
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 09:55 AM

You know what?

I just inspected the keys of my PX-330 - they became quite loose and move sideways a lot now. When the keyboard was new they did not move at all. But, obviously, unconsciously I was squeezing the keys together all the time with great force and they had to give.
I don't know if I damaged the keyboard, but now, for example, white-white 10th became shorter by 3-4 mm: 4 gaps between keys, each about 1 mm, disappear completely when playing a tenth. Of the remaining 3 in the middle, two outer ones are also somewhat reduced.
Unfortunately, the most difficult black-white tenths do not allow to squeeze the keys on the black side at all and not so much on the white side as well - exactly where the biggest squeeze is needed...

All those problems because cruel piano makers won't make keyboards for regular people. Only for selected few.
A mass-market keyboard is badly needed. I think Casio could be that company. It already is making stuff for regular people, like non-Rolex watches, etc. Mike?



Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 10:27 AM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
You know what? <snippage...> All those problems because cruel piano makers won't make keyboards for regular people. Only for selected few.


You know what? We get your beef. It's just that most of us don't agree with it. The idea that MI manufacturers are deliberately, maliciously excluding people from learning the piano is ludicrous. I started learning the piano at five and not only was it some time before I could play an octave, I couldn't reach the pedals before I was about eight. Should I have complained that my piano manufacturer hadn't thought to have an adjustable lyre?

There are many players out there who have overcome many physical disadvantages to become good or even great players...

Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 11:35 AM

The outpatients are out in force today.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 12:04 PM

SoftFloor, you might want to look at the Korg MicroPiano.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 12:09 PM

Or videos of Michel Petrucciani smile
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 12:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James


Unless Mike wishes for his work email address/telephone number to be posted on a public forum, may I politely suggest you edit your post to remove his information.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks James. My cell phone posted on a forum. help
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 12:32 PM

It's ok Mike, I made a note to call you about 3am Eastern - presume that's all right <evil grin>
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 12:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Any way to let the notes decay naturally?


The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.


Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this frown

If you watch this vid of mike playing the px130, he creates a nice layered sound with piano and strings with some pedaling at 2.13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E90JGRaFkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.


The piano and strings on the PX-350, respond similarly to the example of the PX-130 in the video link above...although both the string and piano sounds are new.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 12:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Aidan
It's ok Mike, I made a note to call you about 3am Eastern - presume that's all right <evil grin>


Yes, I was actually up at that time this morning.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: Aidan
It's ok Mike, I made a note to call you about 3am Eastern - presume that's all right <evil grin>


Yes, I was actually up at that time this morning.


Yay! Casio, give this guy a pay rise
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 03:25 PM

Mike, I hope you don't mind that I posted your phone info all over my new "Casio Complaints" Facebook page. laugh
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys?
It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.
Posted by: ONfrank

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys?
It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.


Interesting tangent here. I for one would welcome smaller keys. I can barely stretch my thumb and pinky from C to C. Anything more is out of reach, literally.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By: ONfrank
Interesting tangent here. I for one would welcome smaller keys. I can barely stretch my thumb and pinky from C to C. Anything more is out of reach, literally.

Narrower keys could also give you a more portable DP. 88 keys in the same width as 77, that's almost a whole octave's worth of length gone.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
And young kids and small women have successfully learned to play on standard size pianos, probably for centuries.

This is an interesting article, it says the modern key size began around 1880, before that keys were smaller width.

It links to this page with a great quote:

In my lectures I have been giving at universities I say one statement that causes a shock of awareness that allows people to be able to see this issue as I do. I pick from the audience a female pianist who agrees that she has an average female hand-- not really small and not unusually large for a female.

I then take her hand and show it to the class and say, "If Vladimir Horowitz had been born with this hand, you would have never heard of him."
Posted by: Dave B

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 08:27 PM

Can you change the split point on the 350?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave B
Can you change the split point on the 350?


Yes and you can store your settings as registrations.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 09:03 PM

Looks like my P105 and PX350 are arriving Wed in time for my 40th birthday on Thursday
Posted by: pv88

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: jmarch
... the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices. So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

... however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

... maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.


Sounds to me like the player/owner can try all sorts of settings in an attempt to alleviate the issue, although no answer is to be found.

Is this the player's fault, or, Casio's?

Who is going to "fix" these issues?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 10:53 PM

Originally Posted By: pv88
Originally Posted By: jmarch
... the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices. So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

... however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

... maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.


Sounds to me like the player/owner can try all sorts of settings in an attempt to alleviate the issue, although no answer is to be found.

Is this the player's fault, or, Casio's?

Who is going to "fix" these issues?

I still think there's no issue. Every "pro" keyboard I've ever played works the same way (to me, it would be a flaw if it worked differently), and Mike Martin has confirmed that's how it is supposed to work, and that previous Casios worked the same way. The OP wants the results he hears on the PX-130 clip... I think all he needs to do is operate the sustain pedal appropriately.
Posted by: Casio PX 350

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Any way to let the notes decay naturally?


The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.


Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this frown

If you watch this vid of mike playing the px130, he creates a nice layered sound with piano and strings with some pedaling at 2.13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E90JGRaFkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.


The piano and strings on the PX-350, respond similarly to the example of the PX-130 in the video link above...although both the string and piano sounds are new.


Hi Mike, thanks for the reply.

Is there a setting anywhere on the PX 350 that gets rid of the infinite sustain?
That's the major beef i have with this model at the moment.

Thanks!
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Difference? - 10/22/12 11:43 PM

PX-350
I haven't read the manual of the 350, but I believe it works the same way my older PX-575 does. It is necessary to adjust your pedaling technique or the strings will overpower the other sound layered with it. It might be more pronounced with the new sound processor and better sustain, I don't know as I have not played one yet. Perhaps you are not used to the half pedaling? Adjusting the volume of the strings patch should help. I don't know if it works differently on any other manufacturers DP's as I have never paid attention to it. String patches do seem to have quite a bit of volume to them, even those generated on a computer. You have to balance out the strings in a recorded mix.
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 04:42 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys?
It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.


Not "we all" - I most certainly am using Dvorak smile
And also, there is another issue about the computer keyboards - that almost all of them are made for two right hands - even the split keyboards, so called "ergonomic" ones.
And all laptop and notebook computers.

A simple test:

put your fingers on the home row keys where they belong.
I guess, for QWERTY keyboards it will be the left hand index finger on F, the right hand index finger on J.
I don't really know which the other keys are, because I am using Dvorak and the key labels on other keys on the home row are gone on my keyboard.

Anyway, when your four fingers are on the home keys, try to type a key one row above without moving your hand and without lifting the other three fingers from their home keys.

with the right hand: with the J finger (index finger) press the U key - works perfectly.

with the left hand: with F finger (index finger) press R key -
your finger hits the middle between two keys, unfortunately.
In order to press the R key you need to lift the other three fingers - to move/shift the whole hand, or to keep the hand at an unnatural angle: instead of keeping your hands this way: / \ you need to keep them like this: \ \ - only then you hit the correct keys with the left hand.
The same with other fingers, or with hitting keys on the lower row.

There are not many correctly made computer keyboards (with keys correctly aligned in columns in directions of your fingers) and they cost a lot. Such good keyboards are: Kinesis Contoured, Maltron, DataDesk (Darwin) SmartBoard - this excellent keyboard is no longer made, unfortunately.


Why they are making almost all the keyboards with the rows of keys so badly misaligned?

Because mechanical typewriters used to be made that way, because they had to accommodate the key levers, that's why.
And how many of the current computer users have even seen mechanical typewriters? Except in movies?

Stupid traditions. Exactly the same with the size of piano keys. They were increased to the current size in order to solve some technical issues with aligning hammers with the strings or something like that. Perhaps to make enough room to fit all those escape mechanisms and to make the keys and all the parts strong enough. These technical issues were solved long ago and this increased size is no longer needed.

What is surprising to me, is that Kawai James thinks there is no market large enough for keyboards with smaller size keys (normal size, really) when it should be obvious to him that not only a significant percentage of the current pianists would welcome smaller keys but also many new people would want those keyboards because suddenly they could play piano too.
And everybody would buy them for their children.
I really think that the current key size could become history.






Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
SoftFloor, you might want to look at the Korg MicroPiano.


Seems to be a toy.

1. 61 keys only
2. no specifications anywhere - does it have a realistic piano action? I guess not.
What is the exact size of the keys?

It is really insulting that they make such toys but still do not make 15/16 or 7/8 keyboards
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 05:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Aidan


You know what? We get your beef. It's just that most of us don't agree with it.


No, I don't think you do.
If you got it, you would agree with me.
I am not demanding that all the pianos were made with smaller keys, I only want a choice which size to buy.
There cannot be anything more natural than that.

And you are wrong about "most of us".
Most of us do not reach C#-F with perfectly relaxed hand.
Many of us struggle even with octaves or do not tolerate pain well enough to play piano at all.

The situation with piano keyboards is exactly the same as with computer keyboards. Because of some stupid tradition nobody is making the right keyboards.

Currently, only $10,000 upright pianos are available in USA in 7/8 and 15/16 sizes. And how much it would cost to ship such a piano to Europe. With all the taxes probably $15,000?

Casio PX-150 etc. are exactly the perfect instruments to introduce those sizes.
Because the first trial balloon models should be under $1000:
people would easier try new and unknown if they do not have to risk too much money. Then will come the more expensive ones.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 09:17 AM

If there's really a significant market for this idea, and if the engineering and production challenges are all that easy to overcome, someone will offer such a keyboard. All manufacturers prefer larger rather than smaller profits. (And if all your assumptions are wrong, it's baffling why we haven't seen huge federal grants for such a project.)

If manufaturers don't jump in -- and if the demand is so great and producing it would be so simple -- then put together your own business plan and crowdsource some capital to back it up.

In the real world, money talks and BS walks.
Posted by: SoftFloor

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 09:54 AM


Yes, some new digital piano maker could jump in.
Or at least a midi keyboard maker.
It is really hard to comprehend that there still are no such keyboards from an old or a new maker.

As to production challenges - acoustic pianos or their replaceable keyboard assemblies are successfully being made already.
For digitals everything is so much simpler.
And such a logical place to start - with the cheapest digitals or midi controllers.

So thanks for the idea. I was just thinking where to invest my money in those uncertain times...
Posted by: dewster

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 10:25 AM

Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
It is really hard to comprehend that there still are no such keyboards from an old or a new maker.

One would expect the DP market to be somewhat rational, but it pretty much isn't. All DPs could be significantly improved in a variety of ways for the same price or less, and the way forward is quite clear, but you might just as well spend your time hollering at a deaf snail to creep faster. My suggestion is to drastically lower your expectations when you enter here.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 12:15 PM

This is something of a crosspost from the Keyboard Mag forum, but as there's a lot of interest in the PX-350, I thought I'd repost most of my impressions here.

I got mine today. First impressions - looks nicely built for the price range, seems a bit more robust than my choir's PX-320, which I use every week.

The keybed feels like it was inspired by Roland's RD700GX/NX models, albeit a "poor man's version" - the "ivories" feel more like matt plastic than anything close to the real thing and the grain of the "ebonies" is way over-exaggerated - not exactly pleasant under the fingers. The key travel is quite deep, and it has quite a heavy action for its class.

The opening "Grand Piano Concert" tone, over the internal speakers, sounds pretty good top and bottom, but there is an artificial quality to the mid-range. Never mind - let's get this baby patched into my Focusrite audio interface and hear what it sounds like over my Tannoy Reveal Actives.

Something's wrong. I've got the Focusrite inputs ramped up towards around "8" but there's hardly any signal from the Casio coming through them. Still coming through the internals loud and clear, though.

After some searching in the manual, I came across this little nugget:

Quote:
When using the line out jacks, also connect headphones to the phones jacks. This will switch the line out output to appropriate sound quality.


So I put a headphone jack adapter into one of the phones sockets and whomp - the sound in the line outs immediately comes up to a useable level. Now, I'm sorry, but this is a big issue for me - here's why...

I found that the PX-320, while pretty mediocre through either the internal speakers (naturally enough) or external monitors, sounded really quite impressive with the combination of an external speaker cab (to add volume and bass depth) and internal speakers (to add stereo imaging right where you want it most).

But now you can't do that - unless you amplify the external signal to extreme levels, it's an essentially useless signal unless you plug in a headphone jack - which, of course, mutes the internal speakers.

Why Casio should choose to do it that way, I have no clue, but at a stroke, they've deleted one of the Privia's best-selling points, IMO.

It quickly began to go downhill from there. Through the studio monitors, I decided I didn't really like any of the pianos much except the first, default one. Even the much-vaunted "Dolce Grand".

Also, I seem to notice an unevenness in the top end of the velocity curve - it seems rather too easy to hit the top of the response range, resulting in some unexpected "barking" in the APs - more of this in a moment.

The EPs are all OK in pinch-hitting situations, but that's about it. Other sounds are of curiosity value only, IMO.

For a last throw of the dice, I hook the Privia up to the Kronos. Maybe it can serve, at the very least, as a decent 88 keybed for the Korg.

But immediately, I run into this velocity response issue again. Driving the Kronos default German Grand, it seems to hit "top" far too easily. Of course, I tried adjusting the response on the Kronos (and I admit I didn't spend too long trying) but I was still hitting the same problem.

The PX-350 has been repacked and scheduled for a return.

I wanted very much to like this (and yes, of course I'm spoiled by the pianos on both the Kronos and the Stage) - but I'm sure I could have learned to live with many of these compromises had it not been this crazy decision to not let you use external and internal speakers together.

That, in the end, is the real deal breaker for me.
Posted by: funkycornwall

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 01:24 PM

Yes the issue with having to switch out the internal speakers (by means of plugging into a headphone socket) to obtain a decent output was exactly the same with the PX-330. The PX-3, without speakers of course, does not have this problem. I have not tried the PX-350 so have not evaluated the piano sound quality for myself. However there is the new feature of being able to play wave files directly from a USB memory stick. This sounds like a very useful idea but what I cannot ascertain is whether or not it is easy to adjust the wave volume output without going through numerous button operations. With some keyboards there is a separate control for such sound output and this is ideal but I don't think the PX-350 has this. Has anyone tried the wave file output feature? It is a shame you were disappointed as it sounded a promising keyboard.

It is always possible that the PX-3 will be replaced and updated and maybe they will further improve the pianos. However I am not in a position to confirm this.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 01:50 PM

Hi aidan ,

not to interfere, but couldn't you try to adjust the velocity curve a bit more before sending it back ? I think the standard curve is an average and often not to everybody's liking. Luckily most DP' s offer enough options to adjust the velocity respons. I was wondering if you would like the piano presets and keybed in the end when properly adjusted.

The issue with the headphone plug enabling audio out will stay of course, but I was really curious how you would judge the keybed/ AP combination when adjusted to your playing style...there are not many good user reviews around so far.
Posted by: Kbeaumont

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 02:27 PM

Quote:
Yes the issue with having to switch out the internal speakers (by means of plugging into a headphone socket) to obtain a decent output was exactly the same with the PX-330


Actually I own a PX-330 and that is not the case. In fact the opposite is true. If you put in an adapter to shut off the internal speakers, there is a stereo field expansion and a bump in the lower eq applied to the signal which sounds good in headphones but not so good through the line outs. Playing both the internal speakers and line outs simultaneously is just fine.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: CASIO releases 4 new models - 10/24/12 03:33 PM

My goodness! If this issue with the internal speakers needing to be shut off before getting a usable signal from the line-outs is universally true for all PX-350s, it makes me wonder why on earth the engineers didn't consult gigging pianists - such as Mike Martin! - before instituting such a crass new "feature". shocked

I was looking forward to hearing from Aidan that this was the perfect lightweight gigging tool. Oh well, the wait continues...
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 03:49 PM

Quote:


In the meantime, here it is in a band setting - Steve LeBlanc hitting it out of the park with Jason Bonham's Led Zeppelin Experience. The EP is on a Receptor but the piano solo starting about 3.00 is the Casio's internal piano.



With the internal speakers ON, nothing plugged into the headphone out.

The PX-350 functions the same as all the previous models such as the PX-310, PX-320, PX-330 in this regard (although without the dramatic EQ change)
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 03:58 PM

So there's a misunderstanding, or the specific unit of Aidan is perhaps not functioning as it should ? In other words , there shouldn't be a problem using both speakers and line outs simultaneously ? I'm puzzled by the different posts here..
Posted by: ONfrank

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
If there's really a significant market for this idea, and if the engineering and production challenges are all that easy to overcome, someone will offer such a keyboard. All manufacturers prefer larger rather than smaller profits.


For a minute there I almost thought you were talking about the piano industry.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The PX-350 functions the same as all the previous models such as the PX-310, PX-320, PX-330 in this regard (although without the dramatic EQ change)

Great to know that it you can indeed use the speakers and line outs at the same time, and also that they addressed the EQ issue that at least the 330 apparently had. But I wonder why the PX350 manual recommends that you connect something to the headphone jack when using the line outs?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
But I wonder why the PX350 manual recommends that you connect something to the headphone jack when using the line outs?


There is a difference in gain, but not enough as Stephen Leblanc's video demonstrates that would create any issue in using it that way live.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 05:56 PM

Mike,
Some food for thought here. Since the PX-350 is mainly for piano, why not make it really shine for AP and EP. Seems like some posters prefer the EP on the PX-3 to what is on the 330/350. Casio's older models with the ZPI had some very good sounding EP's, and the CDP-100 was pretty good also. Maybe these patches could be resurrected? Also is the ability to turn on DSP and apply DSP to other sounds eliminated? The old 3000 series workstations and PX-575 all had these abilities.
Posted by: Aidan

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
But I wonder why the PX350 manual recommends that you connect something to the headphone jack when using the line outs?


There is a difference in gain, but not enough as Stephen Leblanc's video demonstrates that would create any issue in using it that way live.


In fairness to Mike and Casio, I'm posting my follow-up comments here as well as the other forum...

In the wake of Mike's comments, I'm really wondering whether the unit I received has a defect.

What I CAN tell you all is that it is less than two weeks since I had a PX-320 in the studio, hooked up to exactly the same equipment with the same settings.

With its internal speakers active, there were NO issues whatsoever with the level coming out of the line-outs - I could easily turn up the external component of the sound until it overwhelmed the internal speakers. It was such a non-issue that I didn't bother to try defeating the internal speakers.

The same just is NOT true of the unit I received - at same or similar settings used with the PX-320, I had to stand up and put my ear closer to the studio monitors to check that some signal was coming through to that source.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Difference? - 10/24/12 07:32 PM

Aidan, the Roland FP series is notorious for having low gain in default mode. When driving external speakers, if you turn the internal gain up, the sound level can easily overwhelm the internal speakers - and the piano doesn't remember the gain settings on power-down. The remedy for certain situations was to add a little Behringer Xenyx 1002FX mixer between piano and speakers. The 1002 has switchable +4dB/-10dB inputs, which neatly cancels out the problem. I suspect that this would also give the PX-350 the extra boost it needs.
Posted by: Dalek

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 04:56 AM

EDIT: snipped, gonna post in the proper thread, sorry smile
Posted by: JFP

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 04:59 AM

Hi - could we keep the discussion about key size in the specific thread that was created for that subject ? It's dedicated to that request and here it keeps on mixing up with the reviews and thoughts about the new Casio PX series. Just my thought...
Posted by: leemax

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 09:32 AM

I played one of the new Privias yesterday at a Guitar Center. They told me they had just taken it out of the box that morning. Unfortunately, they had not hooked up the pedals correctly, or else the unit was defective, because the damper pedal only worked intermittently.I played for a couple of minutes with the onboard speakers, and wasn't really that happy with the sound. I had neglected to bring my own headphones, so I asked them for a pair which improved it some, but I still find the piano sounds on my AP-620 to be much more realistic sounding. As for those new "textured" keys, I am not sure quite who thought those were a good idea. They don't look like any piano keys I have ever seen, nor do they feel like real keys. The Ivory Touch keys on the 620 are much closer to a regular piano. It seems, too, that over time oil from your fingers might attract dust or dirt which would stick in the little grooves and be a pain to clean.
I might go back sometime when they have the pedals hooked up, and with my own headphones, but at this point I see no reason whatever to want to replace my 620.
Posted by: badbob001

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 11:55 AM

Which Privia model did you try? I'm waiting for the PX-750 to be on display.

The speaker configuration seems to get better as you go up in model level:
PX-150: two 13cm/6cm (rectangular)(8W)
PX-350: two 13cm/6cm (rectangular) + two 5cm (8W)
PX-750: two 12cm (8W)
PX-850: two 12cm + two 5cm (20W)

Originally Posted By: leemax
I played one of the new Privias yesterday at a Guitar Center. They told me they had just taken it out of the box that morning. Unfortunately, they had not hooked up the pedals correctly, or else the unit was defective, because the damper pedal only worked intermittently.I played for a couple of minutes with the onboard speakers, and wasn't really that happy with the sound. I had neglected to bring my own headphones, so I asked them for a pair which improved it some, but I still find the piano sounds on my AP-620 to be much more realistic sounding.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 03:46 PM

You better believe that those textured ivories will always look filthy...not to mention way more difficult to keep clean. Personally, I like traditional satin ebonies and gloss ivories, both for their touch and to keep clean. Also, glides (glissandos) don't hurt as much on normal keys as they did when I tried a few on these textured keys. Hey, different strokes for different folks. Many will probably LOVE the new keys.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: leemax
As for those new "textured" keys, I am not sure quite who thought those were a good idea. They don't look like any piano keys I have ever seen, nor do they feel like real keys. The Ivory Touch keys on the 620 are much closer to a regular piano. It seems, too, that over time oil from your fingers might attract dust or dirt which would stick in the little grooves and be a pain to clean.


@leemax,

Yes, you are right as the current glossy "Ivory Touch" keys (that are smooth and non-textured) are absolutely perfect as they feel great to start with, and, they do not pick up any dirt/oil. They are far more resilient to scratching than textured keys.

Looks like changing over to the new textured key tops might be a mistake for Casio, since the current ones were just fine. It remains to be seen if these textured keys will show wear as they did with Roland's key tops.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 07:33 PM

Originally Posted By: pv88
Looks like changing over to the new textured key tops might be a mistake for Casio, since the current ones were just fine. It remains to be seen if these textured keys will show wear as they did with Roland's key tops.


Yeah, unfortunately it's a marketing point, and one that is being used by all the manufacturers. The truth is that real ivory isn't all the special as a key surface and is inferior to the typical key surface in some ways. I have a really hard time with Roland's ivory surface (I don't own one, so it's just when I play in stores that it matters) and this has nothing to do with the scratches. Shiny and clean works for me. Most acoustics don't have an ivory feel surface. I don't even like ivory feel in acoustic grands like Yamaha's and Kawai's.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Difference? - 10/25/12 11:33 PM

Dissenting voice here. As a performing player, I really appreciate the move to faux ivory/ebony. I used to have serious issues with shiny keys and sweaty fingers during summer gigs - particularly on the black keys.
Posted by: Marvin Eight

Re: Difference? - 10/26/12 12:46 AM

Black keys are normally satin black, not glossy on acoustics.

The $75-$100K monster concert grands from Steinway, Bosendorfer, etc. have glossy whites, not textured. I think that if the world's greatest pianists preferred textured keys, they'd be on there, no?
Posted by: Aidan

WTF? - 10/26/12 05:47 AM

OK... I still don't know what happened here...

This morning, as an experiment before it went back, I recorded a comparison between the output levels of the Kronos, the PX-350 with its speakers enabled and with them disabled.

As I predicted, both the Kronos and PX-350 line-out-only samples were pretty much comparable, while the middle sample (PX-350, speakers enabled) showed a distinct drop. I went and posted, on this thread but with a different title, the results - audio here.

I also posted a screenshot of the three recordings (all made on same channel etc, just pausing Logic between recording) when brought into Audacity. Here is that pic:



And that, I thought was that. I was ready to pack the Casio ready for pick-up on Monday when I thought: "Let's just try it through the powered PA speaker (EV ZXA-1) again."

I hadn't been impressed last time - volume seemed very low, even with the EV full out. But this time - note, different cable - it suddenly sprung into life. It still wasn't deafening - this is obviously not a hugely hot output - but it was still as loud (and rather more so) than I would need for the average wedding drinks reception.

Then I thought: "OK, so let's just try this through a different channel of the audio interface." I had been using 5/6 as a stereo input, so I now chose 1/2, mounted on the front of the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interface.

Again, suddenly, I was getting much closer to the results I expected. Certainly enough to move appreciably move the meter.

Now, with both these things suddenly working out, I was much more impressed. I played the thing through the studio monitors, and the EV, for about an hour or so uninterrupted.

I can't fully explain what's gone on here. If it had just been one thing, I'd have said faulty cable or audio channel. I truly hope it's not that there is an intermittent fault on the output of the Casio - but it's held up for now.

I shall play it over the weekend - the shop tells I can just decline the return on Monday and of course, if it turns out to be faulty, it will have to be replaced.

But if it holds up, and it's down to my idiocy (which is quite possible, knowing me!) then I'm freezing on to this little baby after all.

After some extended playing I'm a lot more impressed with the action. I still only really like the default start-up piano sound but one's enough for what I need. Is it the best piano sound in the world? Nope - but it's pretty good. Is it good enough for most gigs? Yep. And the weight and convenience factor are undeniable.

I'm still convinced that the PX-320's outputs are somewhat hotter - unfortunately, I don't have that to hand to compare - but I can now confirm that the output, at least when working as it should and/or not operated by an idiot, is sufficient for most people's needs.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: WTF? - 10/26/12 08:07 AM

I am going to try it with my KRK ROkit 6's.
It sounds very good through Senhesier HD280's. In particular the mellow and dolce sounds.

I have not even had time yet to really go through the board but I enjoy playing it. I still like my PX130 as well also as that is a great board and I will use it for gigging.
Posted by: mrfancypants

Re: WTF? - 10/31/12 09:57 AM

I noticed that the PX-850 does not seem to have midi in/out. The manual mentions that you can connect to a PC to use a virtual piano using a USB cable. Is there any difference in quality over a MIDI to USB or MIDI to Gameport solution?
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: WTF? - 10/31/12 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: mrfancypants
I noticed that the PX-850 does not seem to have midi in/out. The manual mentions that you can connect to a PC to use a virtual piano using a USB cable. Is there any difference in quality over a MIDI to USB or MIDI to Gameport solution?

No difference in quality.

For more info, look at the recent thread:

"Roland F-120 (MIDI only) vs Yamaha YDP-S51 (USB only)?"

Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Difference? - 10/31/12 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Marvin Eight
Black keys are normally satin black, not glossy on acoustics.

The $75-$100K monster concert grands from Steinway, Bosendorfer, etc. have glossy whites, not textured. I think that if the world's greatest pianists preferred textured keys, they'd be on there, no?


I'm not sure what "glossy whites" means in this context, but having played through most of the big names on my recent piano search, I can say there are noticeable differences between white key finishes from one brand of top tier piano to the next.

To me, "glossy whites" evokes an image of shiny, slippery plastic. That's not a surface I like. The keys on my Steingraeber seem almost like a superfine matte finish. They're great to play on. The keys on Grotrians seemed similar to me -- also terrific to play.
Posted by: PianoWorksATL

Re: Difference? - 10/31/12 07:29 PM

When you repair original ivories to like-new condition, they have shiny, smooth look to them. On close inspection, you will see the grain but it was meant to be minimal. On really early pianos, keytops moved from hardwood veneers that would scour and wear unevenly to the ivories were praised for being more hard, consistent and slick as well as attractive over the predecessor.

Originally, it was a practical decision, not a luxury or marketing decision. As alternatives surfaced, tradition and luxury were championed rather than innovation.

The irony, if there is any sense of it, is that in digital pianos, textured naturals were developed ahead of or at least marketed before textured sharps. I will say that high end pianos almost universally use a textured ebony or ebony like wood composite sharps. The texture of the naturals varies from slick to superfine matte to mild texture. Good, real ivory mirrors these states. I don't see any acoustic piano, anywhere that is like the significantly textured offerings from a variety of digital brands now on the market. I wonder if that is what the ancient wood veneer tops felt like? wink

It's not a bad thing, but I predict it is the pendulum swinging. I wonder will the tail wag the dog?
Posted by: Dave Mack

Re: Difference? - 11/05/12 04:09 PM

Hey guys, newbie here.
Great site.
I have a couple of synths already but today after reading a lot here and elsewhere I just bought the 350. Will be my first DP. Loved it when I tried it out. My kid is 5 and we have been messing around on the synth at home but since my Mother In Law is a piano teacher, (free lessons) it seemed to make sense to continue with a DP. We live in an apt in NYC so a real piano is impractical. I am looking forward to jumping in with her as I know rudimentary stuff (been playing guitar for 20+ years) and we can learn together.
Posted by: warlock214

Re: Difference? - 11/05/12 11:17 PM

Welcome to the forum Dave. I have the Privia PX-150 and enjoy playing it. Good luck.
Posted by: Miguel Lescano

Re: Difference? - 11/06/12 04:19 PM

Joe Raciti has posted a review of the PX-850:



And another one by Richard from Whitehorse Music Reviews:

Posted by: Dave Mack

Re: Difference? - 11/12/12 08:22 PM

Got my 350 tonight. Mostly pleased except for three keys that give REALLY bad rattling sounds when playing the piano.

Here's a video I made...

http://vimeo.com/53377250

Doesn't happen with headphones or on any of the lighter sounds like strings. Those keys are pretty near the left speaker and for whatever reason those tones cause something to vibrate like crazy. Please tell me this isn't normal. I'm sending it back either way but I'd like to get a perfect one. My mother in law is a piano teacher and she's teaching my daughter. At her house they use her Steinway. At my apt they have been using a synthesizer, (which actually did have a decent piano sound) hooked up to an amp and my mother in law constantly complained. I thought this would be a great solution.

Anyways, anyone else have anything similar?. I can't believe this made it through inspection.
Also I think it was an open box unit or a returned one from musician's friend although i bought it new. One of the styrofoam things inside the box was broken and one of the plastic pouches was ripped
Posted by: Stevesie

Re: Difference? - 11/12/12 09:53 PM

It sounds like a cabinet or speaker buzz. Definitely not acceptable.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Difference? - 11/12/12 09:55 PM

I think you should start your own thread on the subject. This one is 62 pages long already and not really aimed at fixing things like (apparent) shipping damage.
Posted by: Dave Mack

Re: Difference? - 11/12/12 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I think you should start your own thread on the subject. This one is 62 pages long already and not really aimed at fixing things like (apparent) shipping damage.


Good idea. Thanks
Posted by: Vikas Sharma

Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/19/12 04:23 AM

Got my Casio Privia PX-350M yesterday with the stand and the 3-pedal unit. I must say that I'm very pleased with the Piano sounds and the keybed (action as well as texture). It sounds great with my Bose headphones as well as with the external Yamaha monitors. Worked instantaneously with my MacBook Pro - no driver installation was required. Also, works very well with Pianoteq in the Hi-res MIDI mode. I needed a 88-key weighted hammer-action keyboard to work with my XF6 as well as with my computer and I'm happy to have made this choice. Very light, portable and a pleasure to play. I'd never thought a Casio could be so good.

Great value for money!
Posted by: NikoKiko

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/27/12 07:52 PM

Does anyone have any idea what better sustain pedal can be used with PX-150/PX-350 that supports Half-Damper Pedal Operation and is not the optional 3 pedal board (SP-33)
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/27/12 08:37 PM

AFAIK there is not one. That's a big downside of Casio. Huge, actually, if you don't want to use their silly stand.
Posted by: Gatsbee13

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/27/12 08:50 PM

there might be an aftermarket one in the future since the x50s are new.. but that is a big MIGHT
Posted by: xorbe

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/27/12 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: NikoKiko
Does anyone have any idea what better sustain pedal can be used with PX-150/PX-350 that supports Half-Damper Pedal Operation and is not the optional 3 pedal board (SP-33)

I've seen a DIY schematic on the 'net. It's out there somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment.
Posted by: o0Ampy0o

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/28/12 12:12 AM

LINK: This might be a DIY guide for the Casio half pedaling pedal assy.

Supposedly the 3-pedal SP-33 accessory can be removed and used separated from the bar if you mount it to something else. (source)



Posted by: NikoKiko

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/28/12 01:24 AM

That's really a pitty, there should be something you can buy, or at least casio should make one if not 3rd party. Look at yamaha, they have that.
I am just weighing pros and cons of PX-150/350 vs Yamaha P-105/P-155

Does anyone know if SP-32 and SP-33 are interchangeble or there is a hardware difference.
Posted by: Vikas Sharma

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/28/12 01:41 AM

Originally Posted By: NikoKiko
Does anyone know if SP-32 and SP-33 are interchangeble or there is a hardware difference.

AFAIK, they're NOT interchangeable. I think it was confirmed in some other thread by Mike Martin of Casio.
Posted by: NikoKiko

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/28/12 02:30 AM

thank you Sir,
so if I want a better quality pedal other than the included one, I can by SP-33.
If I don't like the whole thing I can take it apart and mount the 3 pedal assembly on some piece of board. That is if I don't but the stand for the piano.
Posted by: NikoKiko

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 11/29/12 01:11 AM

Anyone know where they have PX-150/PX-350 on display in Vancouver, Canada ?
I've tried the PX-130, here locally, but I would like to buy/test the new models.
Posted by: etercap

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 12/01/12 03:52 PM

A recently posted demo from KraftMusic for the PX-350:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCtOWbO53Y8
Posted by: Kingnog

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/08/13 02:14 PM

Any updated news on the Celviano AP-250 / 450 / 650 release date for the US? Mike previously said January 2013 (page 8 of this thread?), but it hasn't even been announced yet, as far as I am aware.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/08/13 02:29 PM

We launch them at the NAMM show in two weeks and begin shipping immediately after.
Posted by: DBill

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/08/13 03:51 PM

Hi Mike,

Please sign me up for an AP 650. As long as the price is reasonable, it will be a quick order. (If it's any help, please send me a private message for more info.)
Posted by: DBill

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/08/13 09:08 PM

A question for Mike:

I’ve heard rumors that the Casio Celviano AP 650 will not be for sale through Internet stores such as musiciansfriend, kraftmusic, etc. Can you confirm this? Will I be able to buy a 650 without physically visiting a Casio dealer?

Note: The nearest Casio dealer is some 200 miles away from where I live. I’m also some 200 miles from the nearest Kawai dealer. A similar problem came up when I tried to buy a Kawai CN34 starting several weeks ago. You can’t negotiate a price with Kawai dealer unless you are physically standing in the store with a Kawai dealer. Kawai lost a sale because of this.
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/08/13 09:11 PM

Mike, is there a Casio dealer in South Jersey?- in the event in the future I would want a console and not want to assemble it myself.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/09/13 10:17 AM

We are working on our website along with an updated dealer locator. It should be clear following the NAMM show where you'll be able to purchase the Celviano models.
Posted by: mg64

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/09/13 09:27 PM

Hi Mike,

Are the Celviano models loaded with a better sound source than that in Privia digital pianos? Which are the main differences between them?

Thanks.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/09/13 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: mg64
Hi Mike,

Are the Celviano models loaded with a better sound source than that in Privia digital pianos? Which are the main differences between them?

Thanks.


The primary differences are the cabinetry and speaker systems. The Celviano AP-650 has the largest speaker system which can't be found on a Privia. Celviano models also come with benches (some height adjustable, depending on the model).
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/10/13 08:09 PM

Would these come then already assembled?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/10/13 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Possum PX130350
Would these come then already assembled?



That would be up to your local dealer.
Posted by: mg64

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/13/13 08:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin


The primary differences are the cabinetry and speaker systems. The Celviano AP-650 has the largest speaker system which can't be found on a Privia. Celviano models also come with benches (some height adjustable, depending on the model).


Thanks.
Posted by: Charles Cohen

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/13/13 09:14 PM

A note on pedal action for the PX-350:

I just installed the Casio "triple pedal" (SP-33).

"Soft pedal" works, somewhat.

"Sostenuto pedal" works.

"Damper pedal" works as follows:

. . . Pedal up -- plain sound.

. . . Pedal partially down (over a range of positions) --
. . . . . a _constant_ amount of "half-pedal" effect --
. . . . . notes decay faster than "pedal down",
. . . . slower than 'pedal up'

. . . Pedal down -- undamped (long) decay.

There's a menu option that controls the "depth" of the half-pedal effect:

. . . 0 -- "half-pedal" is the same as 'pedal up'

. . . 42 -- "half-pedal" is the same as "pedal down".

Intermediate values give intermediate-length shortened decay. The default is 24, which sounds nice to my ears, more-or-less like dampers just barely touching the strings.

The position of the pedal that causes the "loom of strings" to sound, seems to vary with the "half-pedal depth" menu option. But the _volume_ of the "loom of strings" doesn't vary with pedal velocity [to my ears].

So the damping time doesn't depend _continuously_ on the position of the pedal.

It's a nice add-on. Not the subtle analog control of a "real piano" pedal, but better than 'on / off'.

. Charles

PS -- I'm sorry if this description is ambiguous or incomprehensible. Playing it is easy; describing it is a bit harder!
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 01/13/13 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: Possum PX130350
Would these come then already assembled?



That would be up to your local dealer.


Thanks- I am going to look around and check the site- I'll probably need something with a little more power such as the 850 or 650.
Posted by: tomek

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 05/13/13 09:47 AM

350 vs 850

Is px-850 worth spending extra $ on by these features ?

- 4 level string resonance (none in 350')
- 4 level damper resonance (on/off in 350's)
- 4 level hammer response (on/off in 350's)
- key off simulator (none in 350')
- 4 level lid simulator (none in 350')
Posted by: justpin

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 05/13/13 12:00 PM

I thought the PX850 also had a continuous sustain pedal too?



However!

Based on UK prices:

PX350 = £599
CS67 Stand = £80
SP33 pedal board £80

Total price £759

While the PX850 is £799.
Posted by: Charles Cohen

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 05/14/13 01:06 AM

"String resonance" is one of the things that makes the sound of an AP "richer" or "fuller" than the sound of a DP.

If Casio has done a good job of implementing it in the PX-850 (which I haven't played yet), it's worth having.

And I think "justpin" is right -- the PX-850 should have a continuous "sustain" pedal.

. Charles
Posted by: tomek

Re: Casio Privia PX-350M - 05/14/13 04:20 PM

where can i find specs about headphone's out amplifier power in px series ?