Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop?

Posted by: Rhodie73

Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/23/12 11:00 PM

After owning and selling both a Yamaha CP5 and CP50, I remember thinking to myself how much potential they had but seemed somewhat half baked by Yamaha. I found that a lot of retailers that stock these new CP's have new old stock and don't regularly stock them because they just dont sell well (thats what a SamAsh keyboard salesmen told me). Also Sweetwater now puts the CP5 into the "special order" category....very strange for what was supposed to be the "high performance" model. On these new CP series keyboards the vintage electric pianos were definitely a cut above, the acoustic pianos were still typical Yamaha fashion of stretching and looping. While they did play well at times on stage, i always felt a lifeless fashion about them and none of the models (including the $4000 CP1) featured key sympathetic resonance. Roland was able to remedy their deficiencies by developing and dispersing their SuperNatural technology into all of their stage pianos across the board. However I feel that Yamaha may have dropped the ball on their opportunity in 2010 to directly compete with Roland in the arena of digital piano technology. I'm curious if Yamaha may decide to stop rehashing almost 20 year technology of sampling with typical looping and stretching and possibly update the attempts made in 2010 with the CP series stage pianos at the 2013 NAMM show.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/23/12 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
I'm curious if Yamaha may decide to stop rehashing almost 20 year technology of sampling with typical looping and stretching and possibly update the attempts made in 2010 with the CP series stage pianos at the 2013 NAMM show.

I'd say go to sleep and wait for NAMM 2020 or thereabouts. The DP market is positively glacial in its movement, and getting your hopes up in any way is a recipe for disappointment. These guys never met a shrunken sample set they didn't absolutely love, and if you can't do it with a $2 Arduino class processor forget it.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 01:15 AM

The CP1 is a fantastic board, with superb EPs and a very playable (if not terribly piano-like) keyboard action. The only problem is that it was arguably too expensive to be successful - Yamaha's V-Piano, if you will.

Originally Posted By: dewster
snip


With the greatest respect, you clearly don't understand the economics of the industry - things often appear to be far easier when you're on the outside looking in.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: ElmerJFudd

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 01:31 AM

That's a fair synopsis of the CP line in 2012. I think they are really nice instruments, the CP1 is just beautiful. Aesthetically pleasing, vintage vibe, really nice keys and action, (grossly over priced, but if the market will bear it...) it's definitely a player's instrument. But why not give it the bread and butter sounds they included in the 5 and 50? And from the other perspective, why strip those models down so much that they barely resemble the 1? Would love to see Yamaha delve into some creative use of modeling technology on their piano sounds. It's really the only thing the CP1 is lacking. Does this diminish its playability? No. Nor does it sound bad, on the contrary, it sounds really good! But their competition is innovating, and they need to do the same.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 03:57 AM

Well there's modelling and modelling. The sound engine on the CP series was called SCM - Spectral Component Modelling and Yamaha made claims about the use of modelling.

At this point in time to replace their sample-based sound engine with pure modelling would be a mistake in my opinion because the result will simply not sound as good (although the behaviours would probably improve). I think the CP1 is a beautiful thing aesthetically (never played one). My one brief go on a CP5 and I was hooked - fantastic board. But they do need to move their game on. Roland's SN is technically very superior (although I prefer the sound of the Yamaha) and Yamaha needs to show us they can really innovate like Roland has done with the V-Piano and SN.

NAMM still feels too early for CP replacements given the usual Yamaha product life-cycle but let's wait and see.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 04:54 AM

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
That's a fair synopsis of the CP line in 2012. I think they are really nice instruments, the CP1 is just beautiful.


@ElmerJFudd,

As James mentioned here above, the CP1 is Yamaha's "V-Piano" with some extra modeling features, and, I decided to buy a V-Piano, instead.

Speaking of the CP1 (which is an excellent digital) I did a transcription of Katsunori Ujiie's (first) CP1 demo piece.

Here is the demo piece played on a CP1, i.e., first minute of video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_LtWSU5VaA

Here is a recording at the V-Piano of the same demo:

[There is 11 seconds of silence prior to the playing.]

https://www.box.com/s/47c3fd76f406fef9862a

Do happen to prefer the "V" over the CP1.
Posted by: ando

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By: pv88


Here is the demo piece played on a CP1, i.e., first minute of video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_LtWSU5VaA


It's hard to assess the sound of the Yamaha from that because there is quite a heavy chorus and reverb effect on it. I don't like such effects on piano sounds, but the CP1 certainly seems like a very expressive instrument - as is the V-piano.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
why not give it the bread and butter sounds they included in the 5 and 50? And from the other perspective, why strip those models down so much that they barely resemble the 1?

Usually, these things come down to money, so that would be my first guess.

At http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/450564/P15/ a Yamaha rep said that, compared to the CP5, "the CP1 simply has greater ability to crunch numbers (which is important in modeling keyboards)." So there are possible answers to your questions... Why can't the CP5 do all the CP1 can? It requires more expensive processing. Why didn't they include the CP5's extra sounds in the CP1? I'd have to go further into conjecture for that one. It could be that It would have added to the price of a unit that they didn't want to make it any more expensive than it already was, or maybe they felt that it would detract from its marketing as their "ultimate stage piano" for people who simply want that with no bells and whistles. Roland did the same thing with its V-Piano... better SuperNatural piano technology than, say, an RD-700NX, but none of the auxiliary sounds.
Posted by: Rhodie73

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
why not give it the bread and butter sounds they included in the 5 and 50? And from the other perspective, why strip those models down so much that they barely resemble the 1?

Usually, these things come down to money, so that would be my first guess.

At http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/450564/P15/ a Yamaha rep said that, compared to the CP5, "the CP1 simply has greater ability to crunch numbers (which is important in modeling keyboards)." So there are possible answers to your questions... Why can't the CP5 do all the CP1 can? It requires more expensive processing. Why didn't they include the CP5's extra sounds in the CP1? I'd have to go further into conjecture for that one. It could be that It would have added to the price of a unit that they didn't want to make it any more expensive than it already was, or maybe they felt that it would detract from its marketing as their "ultimate stage piano" for people who simply want that with no bells and whistles. Roland did the same thing with its V-Piano... better SuperNatural piano technology than, say, an RD-700NX, but none of the auxiliary sounds.


I can totally understand Yamaha's logic in only having keyboard sounds in the CP1 that were supposed to be the best available, but they didn't. The modeling on the vintage electric pianos and the inclusion of FM synthesis is very cool, no doubt. However I would've thought that they would step their game up on the acoustic piano reproduction like Roland did with the V-Piano. I think they should have at least developed a technology like the SuperNatural technology that incorporates sampling and modeling on that level. This way through samples they can still have the "Yamaha Sound". Honestly I prefer the sound of the CP1 over the V-Piano but if I were in the market for such a one trick pony, I really don't want rehashed techniques for acoustic piano reproduction, at least be a little more innovative. I'm not bashing Yamaha because I understand economics but on the other hand their competition have been listening and developed instruments where looping, stretching and even velocity mapping have practically become a thing of the past. Even Korg has the Kronos and they decided that rather than develop some kind of modeling technology, just use full length samples!

Like I said I'm not trying to bash Yamaha because I've been an advid user for years, but I am hoping that they revamp the CP line because they are really fun instruments to play, but simply need to be developed more. As of current I'm considering one of the Roland RD's as a stage piano. Playing one and also have owned a CP5 and 50, I really appreciate the tweak able resonances (actual key sympathetic resonance and damper resonance, not an echoey reverb when I use the damper pedal) and decays without looping. I would certainly be tempted to record with one if I needed a convincing solo piano.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 10:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
The only problem is that it was arguably too expensive to be successful...

Well, there are the other problems of no key sympathetic resonance, the high and low ends being very stretched, and of course the sub 1 second loops. For a $5k (at Sweetwater, special order only, no free shipping, no returns) flagship stage piano the AP sound technology is fairly lacking.

The CP1 should probably be considered as more of an EP, with two smallish AP sample sets thrown in. I think Yamaha raised everyone's expectations through the roof with their new SCM terminology. But in the end, for the APs anyway, it was mostly just empty hype.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 11:51 AM

CP5 and CP50:
Cryptic, unintuitive interface. For people who have had the opportunity to test the instruments, a few seconds of unresponsive button pushing has probably led directly to the end of the session and a shuffle over to the Roland display.

Lots of extra sounds but no mod wheel. No, it's not a synth, but providing just half the cake (pitch bend) makes it almost worse than offering no means of expression. I expect a pedal can be configured to do the job, but that is not in line with most players' technique.

Nice basic piano samples but with a very static, unrealistic decay.

Fewer velocity layers as you go down the line: 4 in the CP5 and 3 for the CP50. 3 is the same as in the much older CP33, and some have noted how the piano reproduction technology does not seem to have improved since the earlier CPs. Even the P155 has 4 layers.

CP1, CP5 and CP50:
As noted in other posts, egregious stretching and looping. Compared to Roland at similar price-points, it's like comparing a Fiat 500 to a Ferrari.
(Caveat: even Ferraris have their faults!)
Posted by: Possum SP280Krome

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 12:42 PM

My perception of the line was the following: Note I only ever saw them at GC in Manhattan, perhaps SA had them as well in NYC?

Personally, I found them expensive and heavy. In my opinion, with that amount of weight I am better off with an Arius 161 for example. There was a piano that was excellent called the Nocturne grand.

When you compare the specs, its almost like they are discouraging you from getting a 50 or 5.

I think the P155 just has less limitations. I would have picked that before a CP50.

I also felt as though Roland offered better value in some of the $1500-$2000 RD and FP models.

It is difficult to perceive whom the target is.
It is very clear Arius, home user, Clavinova , home user.
How am I going to move a CP that is 70 pounds? Its going to have to stay at home, and it that case I would prefer a console.
Posted by: 36251

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 12:53 PM

I've been reading this thread with curiosity as to where are the fans of this DP? I know I've seen quite a few who said it was the best and even the interface wasn't that difficult to grasp.

I personally could never understand it at GC and I'm done carrying a DP that's a heavy weight and I'm quite happy with my current DP.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Possum P105
Personally, I found them expensive and heavy.

There seems to be a "rationing" mentality. It's as if they want to keep the flagship unaffordable and too heavy for the average player. When comparing Yamaha with other manufacturers, apart from the MP10 which utilizes Kawai's wooden action, I see no reason why any of the flagships should exceed the 55lbs of the RD-700NX - and even that is somewhat bloated due to the (unnecessary, IMO) extended width. I believe the action in the CP5/CP1 is a variation of the older type of action that appeared in products like the P120 - that board weighed 41 lbs!!!

If they really wanted to sell their best technology in stage format, they would make the products usable by the average gigging musician. Let's not forget that it's the younger players who still have the brawn and spinal strength, but it's often the older players who possess the available cash!

My Kawai MP6 weighs around 47lbs. It has an excellent action. If it had world-class APs, and a couple of pounds shaved off the weight, I'd be wedded to Kawai for the rest of my gigging days. The Yamaha CP50 weighs around 45lbs. Again, why could a successor not have the best of Yamaha's technology? The only reason I can think of is that they want their flagships to have a "presence" dictated by size, along with a carefully rationed set of electronics. The end users' criteria hardly register with them.

And have you seen the weight of the V-Piano?

In the end it's all about marketing...
Posted by: Kona_V-Piano

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 08:42 PM

Like many of you guys, I've played all of these instruments for many hours at a time and also feel the same way about the current Yamaha CP line. For a gigging musician, a lighter keyboard with more than two AP sounds would be ideal. The V-Piano is heavy for gigging but does have a larger sound palette that gigging musicians need. It's about time for Roland to step up the game and finally release a lighter, cheaper V-piano light that is fully modeled and as capable as the current generation V-Piano. At the very least what that would accomplish is in the moving forward of this technology into the mainstream where it needs to be. Yamaha needs to adopt a different release strategy of technology updates. Utilizing $2 processor parts and 32MB sample sizes instead of the GB's of sample sounds with very long decays that would please everyone is what is keeping them back. So Roland took a chance with the V-Piano and failed to market it correctly. Yamaha failed to come out with new innovation that they are capable of if they want to. I see two companies I love, both failing at a time when there are less and less musicians out there in schools. We all are so few here in this forum, however we all want to see a higher quality digital piano that is better than what is available today. We all want innovation to finally catch up with current technology. Alas, I may only be dreaming. 13 years ago the Yamaha CLP990 was truly an innovation. Since then, only Roland has attempted something so bold as their flagship. It is time for Yamaha to come out with the modern day equivalent of the CLP990.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
The V-Piano is heavy for gigging but does have a larger sound palette that gigging musicians need.


Larger sound palette than which model? The CP1?
The V-Piano certainly offers a very expressive piano tone (thanks to modelling), however I don't believe the 'sound palette' (i.e. the number of different sounds available) is larger than the CP1. Where are the electric pianos, for example?

Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
13 years ago the Yamaha CLP990 was truly an innovation. Since then, only Roland has attempted something so bold as their flagship. It is time for Yamaha to come out with the modern day equivalent of the CLP990.


I would argue that the AvantGrand is an innovative instrument.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/24/12 10:02 PM

pv88: Thanks for the demo - FWIW, I thought both the CP1 and your V-Piano sounded great. Yes the CP1 is obviously layered with another sound which is slightly detuned wrt the piano sound, so I did my best to block that aspect out.

Greg.
Posted by: Kona_V-Piano

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/25/12 12:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
The V-Piano is heavy for gigging but does have a larger sound palette that gigging musicians need.


Larger sound palette than which model? The CP1?
The V-Piano certainly offers a very expressive piano tone (thanks to modelling), however I don't believe the 'sound palette' (i.e. the number of different sounds available) is larger than the CP1. Where are the electric pianos, for example?

Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
13 years ago the Yamaha CLP990 was truly an innovation. Since then, only Roland has attempted something so bold as their flagship. It is time for Yamaha to come out with the modern day equivalent of the CLP990.


I would argue that the AvantGrand is an innovative instrument.

Cheers,
James
x


I'm speaking of AP acoustic piano sounds, not EP's which Yamaha's do have the best in my humble opinion. The V-Piano has many different sounding acoustic piano's to choose in comparison by default. The AG is innovative but not as innovative as the CLP 990 was at the time. I can elaborate on that more with side by side specs, however Yamaha fails to leave certain specs out that they used to boast about. For example sample size details etc.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/25/12 01:13 AM

I agree with the sentiment of the original poster. The CP50 and CP5 are almost never discussed or recommended on this board because they don't seem to represent significant innovation, but they do cost and weigh a good bit. We talk about the P155 and even the ancient CP33 and CP300 all the time as price leaders and decent packages. The CP1 is a special animal of its own that could and does elicit varying opinions. The other CP line pianos need to be either cheaper or better, in my opinion. If you are stepping off the low end of stage pianos, I just feel that Roland's offerings are more attention-worthy at the moment.

We can cross our fingers for interesting announcements at NAMM. Given the relative scarcity of such announcements last year, perhaps we will be rewarded to see that they were saving them up.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/25/12 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The CP50 and CP5 are almost never discussed or recommended on this board because they don't seem to represent significant innovation, but they do cost and weigh a good bit.

The CP50/CP5 do get knocked on price and weight, but more than that, I think, that many people find them among the most difficult to use. Many people do really like that CP5 action, though.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/25/12 11:41 AM

Yeah, I'd actually really like to try it. I never seem to find the CP5 or CP1 in stores, though.
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/25/12 03:04 PM

It was simply for me, the best acoustic piano substitute for live gigs I'd ever owned. While it wasn't on the portable side at 55 lbs. it was still doable .

While the Nord Piano is perfectly functional from a gig standpoint, it still doesn't offer the same good action and overall inspirational factor for playing jazz like the CP5. I regret selling it.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 04:53 AM

Hardly a sales failure .... the CP50/5/1 outsold all their competitors and still do. Yamaha marketing muscle counts for a lot.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 04:55 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
[quote=gvfarns] Many people do really like that CP5 action, though.


The CP1/5 has the best action of any digital keyboard in history .... it's sublime to play.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 05:21 AM

I keep hearing that the CP5 has a great action, it's too light for my taste. I owned the P250 and CP300 and their actions were heavier than the CP5 ... and I prefer those heavier actions.

It really would be great if we could specially order our keyboards with the actions (and sounds) we wanted. (I've gone the midi controller route in the past and have no intentions of reviving the past.)
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
the CP50/5/1 outsold all their competitors and still do.

Do you have a source for that info?

(FWIW, if you look at sweetwater or musiciansfriend and sort pianos by best-selling/most popular, the Roland RD-700NX comes up higher than the comparably priced CP5.)
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 09:07 AM

Scott, how do you display the sales rank of board on Sweetwater/Musicians' Friend?

James
x
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Scott, how do you display the sales rank of board on Sweetwater/Musicians' Friend?

Once you've displayed the category you want (Stage Pianos on Sweetwater or Digital Pianos on MF) there is a pop-down where you can sort the results various ways... by brand, by price, by sales/popularity, etc.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 10:09 AM

Great, thanks.

James
x
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 10:30 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
(FWIW, if you look at sweetwater or musiciansfriend and sort pianos by best-selling/most popular, the Roland RD-700NX comes up higher than the comparably priced CP5.)

Looking at Sweetwater, the Casio PX-350 comes up in the #1 spot, and the Yamaha P-105 is #3. That can hardly be an indication of sales popularity as these two models are effectively brand new, and will not yet have built up sales volumes anywhere near their predecessors. I suspect that "most popular" means how many people have viewed those pages over the last few days.

When viewing such websites I have often wondered what criteria are used to rank "best selling," and suspect that these are the products the company would most like to sell for reasons of mark-up, shelf space or other self-serving criteria.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Looking at Sweetwater, the Casio PX-350 comes up in the #1 spot, and the Yamaha P-105 is #3. That can hardly be an indication of sales popularity as these two models are effectively brand new, and will not yet have built up sales volumes anywhere near their predecessors. I suspect that "most popular" means how many people have viewed those pages over the last few days.

I agree that they cannot possibly be listed in order of ALL TIME best selling. I assume its a rolling period... i.e. best selling in the last day or week or month, but we don't know what the period is, or how it is weighted (i.e. if it's for some number of days, perhaps most recent days count more heavily). I thought it was kind of strange for you to leap from "it can't be all time sales volume" right to "it's probably recent page views," skipping right over the (IMO more likely) possibility in between, that it's recent sales. The MF site is less ambiguous, it specifically uses the phrase "best selling." But I would guess that that's the criteria Sweetwater is using for "Most Popular" as well, that makes more sense than basing it on page views.

Anyway, those rankings would not have been relevant to Dr Popper's comment of the CP1/5/50 having outsold competitors, except for the fact that he said that they still do, which makes current sales ranking relevant. I don't know of any source to compare sales of different models over the long haul. AFAIK, most companies don't release sales figures (certainly not product by product). But many sites will give you sales rankings of products on a day-to-day basis (perhaps some rolling window of days, as I said), and if you followed that for a while on multiple sites, you'd probably be able to determine a pattern of what is out-selling what.

Anecdotally, someone at a Sam Ash location told me a while back that these CPs were not great sellers... and while that is just one store, I suspect it is true chain-wide because, while you can find them in the flagship Manhattan store, I have not seen them in the some satellite stores I've been to. I don't know what criteria they use to bring things into different stores, it's probably a mix of different things and not strictly sales popularity, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that if a model was flying out the door at the flagship, they would make sure they had it in their satellites as well. So I suspect Sam Ash has not had the typical Yamaha success with these models. (You do find many other Yamahas at the satellite stores.) And of course, that's somewhat self-perpetuating... if Sam Ash is not putting them on the floor in as many of their stores, they're not going to sell as many.

I'm not saying they're total dogs sales wise, but I think there are indications that they are not the market leaders that Yamahas so often are. That's why I was wondering what the source was for Dr Popper's assertion.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 11:29 AM

It's not scientific, but in the prices paid thread as of MacMacMac's spreadsheet there were a total of two CP5's and three CP50's sold cumulatively by reporting forum members. Compare that to 15 FP7F's and 22 FP7's. I suppose one of those would be the competitor in Roland. In Kawai we have the MP6 at 6 and the MP10 at 10. Not a great showing considering the chatter they get here, but still more than the CP's. We can't conclude anything, but I think there's evidence that the CP5/50 have not sold all that well.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 12:09 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I thought it was kind of strange for you to leap from "it can't be all time sales volume" right to "it's probably recent page views," skipping right over the (IMO more likely) possibility in between, that it's recent sales.

There was method in my madness, Scott. If it's based on recent sales, the fact that the PX-350 outsells the RD-700NX (ranked #2) is unsurprising; but the idea that the RD-700NX at $2.7k outsells the P-105 at $600 is, frankly, ludicrous, especially in the run-up to Christmas - unless the rankings are based on such a short time period as to make the whole thing meaningless. That's why I thought it was more likely aspirational page views than actual sales.

But whichever take on the "most popular" criterion is correct, my gut feeling is that the CP1/5/50 sales are fewer than the RDs. I have nothing to back that up, of course!
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 12:15 PM

Your post had me wondering ... so I tallied the Prices Paid listings.
Here are all models for which at least 4 sales were recorded:
Code:
MAKE    MODEL   COUNT
Kawai   CA63     37
Yamaha  CLP340   37
Yamaha  CLP240   24
Roland  FP7      24
Casio   PX330    24
Yamaha  P155     23
Roland  HP207    22
Roland  FP7F     17
Roland  HP307    13
Casio   PX130    13
Kawai   CA93     12
Yamaha  CLP280   12
Kawai   CN33     12
Kawai   MP10     11
Roland  RD700NX  10
Yamaha  CP300     9
Yamaha  CP33      9
Roland  FP4       9
Yamaha  P140      9
Casio   PX800     9
Yamaha  YDP160    9
Yamaha  CLP370    8
Kawai   ES6       8
Roland  HP203     8
Kawai   MP6       8
Kawai   CA91      7
Yamaha  CLP230    7
Yamaha  CLP320    7
Yamaha  CLP330    7
Kawai   CN23      7
Yamaha  P95       7
Casio   PX320     7
Roland  RD700GX   7
Yamaha  CLP380    6
Kawai   CN43      6
Yamaha  CVP407    6
Yamaha  P85       6
Roland  V-Piano   6
Yamaha  YDP161    6
Kawai   CA51      5
Kawai   CE200     5
Yamaha  CLP270    5
Yamaha  CLP430    5
Yamaha  CLP440    5
Roland  HP305     5
Kawai   MP8       5
Kawai   MP8II     5
Yamaha  N1        5
Casio   PX120     5
Casio   PX200     5
Yamaha  YDP140    5
Yamaha  YPG625    5
Casio   AP220     4
Yamaha  CVP401    4
Yamaha  DGX640    4
Casio   PX310     4
Casio   PX350     4
Roland  RD700SX   4
Roland  RP101     4
Yamaha  S90ES     4
Yamaha  YPG635    4
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Your post had me wondering ... so I tallied the Prices Paid listings.
Here are all models for which at least 4 sales were recorded:
Code:
MAKE    MODEL   COUNT
Kawai   CA63     37
Yamaha  CLP340   37
Yamaha  CLP240   24
Roland  FP7      24
Casio   PX330    24
Yamaha  P155     23
Roland  HP207    22
Roland  FP7F     17
Roland  HP307    13
Casio   PX130    13
Kawai   CA93     12
Yamaha  CLP280   12
Kawai   CN33     12
Kawai   MP10     11
Roland  RD700NX  10
Yamaha  CP300     9
Yamaha  CP33      9
Roland  FP4       9
Yamaha  P140      9
Casio   PX800     9
Yamaha  YDP160    9
Yamaha  CLP370    8
Kawai   ES6       8
Roland  HP203     8
Kawai   MP6       8
Kawai   CA91      7
Yamaha  CLP230    7
Yamaha  CLP320    7
Yamaha  CLP330    7
Kawai   CN23      7
Yamaha  P95       7
Casio   PX320     7
Roland  RD700GX   7
Yamaha  CLP380    6
Kawai   CN43      6
Yamaha  CVP407    6
Yamaha  P85       6
Roland  V-Piano   6
Yamaha  YDP161    6
Kawai   CA51      5
Kawai   CE200     5
Yamaha  CLP270    5
Yamaha  CLP430    5
Yamaha  CLP440    5
Roland  HP305     5
Kawai   MP8       5
Kawai   MP8II     5
Yamaha  N1        5
Casio   PX120     5
Casio   PX200     5
Yamaha  YDP140    5
Yamaha  YPG625    5
Casio   AP220     4
Yamaha  CVP401    4
Yamaha  DGX640    4
Casio   PX310     4
Casio   PX350     4
Roland  RD700SX   4
Roland  RP101     4
Yamaha  S90ES     4
Yamaha  YPG635    4

So the V-Piano has equal sales to the YDP-161 and more than the HP-305. That appears to be more a reflection of the type of people who frequent this forum than global sales. I would also add that I think KJ's presence has a significant impact on Kawai sales here, compared to their overall performance in the market. Interesting tally, though.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 12:25 PM

MAC's list is interesting. The tally of CA63 and CLP-340 in particular. I reckon the reality is that the CLP outsells the Kawai to a factor of 10 (or maybe even more). So the most interesting thing about the stats on the prices paid thread is that is shows how unrepresentative we must be of DP buyers in general.

Imagine a car forum where people very interested in the technical merits of cars go. You could see similar numbers of Caterhams to Fords and Bugattis to Toyotas. Because to those interested in technical stuff and who also have a real passion for the topic a Caterham is more interesting than a Ford and so on. But in the "real world" the Ford sells millions and the Caterham sells hundreds. I think our forum completely disguises the market penetration of Yamaha. We have totally skewed the debate to Roland and Kawai because we are passionate and motivated to discover what the smaller makers are doing.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
If it's based on recent sales, the fact that the PX-350 outsells the RD-700NX (ranked #2) is unsurprising; but the idea that the RD-700NX at $2.7k outsells the P-105 at $600 is, frankly, ludicrous, especially in the run-up to Christmas - unless the rankings are based on such a short time period as to make the whole thing meaningless.


Whatever the time period is, it can be skewed in any given time period for one reason or another, so I think you'd have to keep an eye on it over time to get a more accurate read. For example, the RD-700NX could easily have been expected to outsell the P105 over the last x days if the P105 was out of stock for some of that time, prompting some potential P105 customers to purchase elsewhere or purchase a different model rather than wait, and periods of low stock are not uncommon for new models.

I also wonder whether mail-order places like Sweetwater and MF may have a mix that leans more toward the high end, compared to the sales of a local brick and mortar store. The local store lends itself to more impulse buys (which favor lower priced products), and also, the sales tax savings motivation for shopping out of state is much more significant on higher priced products. I guess where I'm going on this is that I'm more comfortable using those sites as a guide toward which comparably priced pieces are outselling which, than I am about their being a good indicator of overall total unit sales regardless of price.
Posted by: Peakly

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 08:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
I remember thinking to myself how much potential they had but seemed somewhat half baked by Yamaha.


You've described these keyboards very well, and it matches my experience with them. I had a CP5 in my studio for three weeks, and I really wanted to like it, but it just came up lacking in ways that you and others have already described. I sent it back, and got a CP33 and a Muse Receptor instead.

Too bad about these CPs. Man I was all ready for something great, and then...whatever...

Mychal
Posted by: johannus

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/26/12 11:51 PM

I recently purchased (with a lot of assistance from my parents) a CP-50. I went to a local music store, hoping in particular to try a P-155, but they didn't have any of that model. My decision to buy it was impulsive and I was honestly worried that I would end up regretting it. After almost a week of relatively heavy use I still enjoy it a lot. I'm a music major and find that practicing on my CP-50 is better than 95% of the pianos offered in the practice rooms (which are mostly well regulated Yamahas, Kawais, and Steinways).
Posted by: Peakly

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: johannus
I'm a music major and find that practicing on my CP-50 is better than 95% of the pianos offered in the practice rooms (which are mostly well regulated Yamahas, Kawais, and Steinways).


What the heck man. Sorry, that is messed up.

Mychal
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 12:10 AM

Glad to know you're enjoying your CP50, johannus. We've had few actual owners commenting on that particular model, and it would be nice to hear your thoughts as you become more used to it. Meanwhile, good luck with your studies!
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 12:25 AM

Originally Posted By: johannus
I'm a music major and find that practicing on my CP-50 is better than 95% of the pianos offered in the practice rooms (which are mostly well regulated Yamahas, Kawais, and Steinways).


Huh? Seriously? How could a "music major" find practicing on a CP50 better than most of well regulated respectable acoustics? This truly makes no sense to me.
Posted by: ando

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: johannus
I'm a music major and find that practicing on my CP-50 is better than 95% of the pianos offered in the practice rooms (which are mostly well regulated Yamahas, Kawais, and Steinways).


Huh? Seriously? How could a "music major" find practicing on a CP50 better than most of well regulated respectable acoustics? This truly makes no sense to me.


The only answer could be that the practice pianos aren't so well regulated. Unless the reason is that this poster prefers easy actions - certainly wouldn't prepare you as well for performing on a grand.

BTW, most practice pianos I used at conservatories were anything but well regulated - they were thrashed out pianos with sloppy actions and compressed hammers.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: johannus
I'm a music major and find that practicing on my CP-50 is better than 95% of the pianos offered in the practice rooms (which are mostly well regulated Yamahas, Kawais, and Steinways).


Huh? Seriously? How could a "music major" find practicing on a CP50 better than most of well regulated respectable acoustics? This truly makes no sense to me.


I for one am constantly irritated by out of tune pianos. I've played pianos with an excellent action but when that same piano is out of tune, it just takes all the fun out of it.

If I have to choose on playing a job on an out of tune acoustic piano or a perfectly in tune digital, I'll go for the perfectly in tune digital. Everything's a trade off and everyone has different standards.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 05:38 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Unless the reason is that this poster prefers easy actions - certainly wouldn't prepare you as well for performing on a grand.

CP50 is not an easy action.
Posted by: Peakly

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Everything's a trade off and everyone has different standards.


Except he said the school has well regulated Steinways.

If they really are, then get thee hence into a room with a $50k real thing and forget the $1500 simulator.

Mychal
Posted by: ando

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 06:01 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: ando
Unless the reason is that this poster prefers easy actions - certainly wouldn't prepare you as well for performing on a grand.

CP50 is not an easy action.


Well if that's true, there no sense whatsoever in that post!
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 07:41 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
. That's why I was wondering what the source was for Dr Popper's assertion.


Sometimes I just know trivial stuff like that ....I might come across it in my meanderings here and there.
Posted by: johannus

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 09:16 AM

There are about 50 pianos in the practice rooms. I don't have access to the five grand pianos (except for when I'm taking lessons from my teacher) and two of them aren't very good at all. The other three are great to play on, and if I were able to play them at all times I wouldn't really need a digital. The uprights are mostly in good condition as far as intonation but the actions vary a lot even among pianos of the same model. There are a few uprights that are more than sufficient for practicing on, but for the rest I found that I would practice on them and struggle to make dynamic contrasts and voicing until I played my lesson on a grand. I also think the action on my digital is closer to the good grands than the action of the uprights. Combine this with the convenience of being able to practice virtually whenever and I'm extremely satisfied.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Peakly
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Everything's a trade off and everyone has different standards.


Except he said the school has well regulated Steinways.

If they really are, then get thee hence into a room with a $50k real thing and forget the $1500 simulator.

Mychal


... yea, but a well regulated piano that is out of tune would drive me crazy, thus my ... everything's a trade off and everyone has different standards remark.
Posted by: johannus

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 12:17 PM

There are only two and while one is outstanding the other is one of the grands that are relatively poor and to me is frustrating to practice on (really poor action even in comparison to the average uprights). It's mostly Kawai and Yamaha uprights which most are okay, a couple are good, but there are a decent amount that are extremely frustrating to practice on.
Posted by: ando

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: johannus
There are about 50 pianos in the practice rooms. I don't have access to the five grand pianos (except for when I'm taking lessons from my teacher) and two of them aren't very good at all. The other three are great to play on, and if I were able to play them at all times I wouldn't really need a digital. The uprights are mostly in good condition as far as intonation but the actions vary a lot even among pianos of the same model. There are a few uprights that are more than sufficient for practicing on, but for the rest I found that I would practice on them and struggle to make dynamic contrasts and voicing until I played my lesson on a grand. I also think the action on my digital is closer to the good grands than the action of the uprights. Combine this with the convenience of being able to practice virtually whenever and I'm extremely satisfied.


So in other words, you don't have access to many well regulated or tuned pianos at all...

A quality grand will absolutely smoke your digital. A decent upright has a much higher dynamic range than a Yamaha digital. You are comparing poorly maintained pianos with your digital. The comparison is meaningless as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by: funkycornwall

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 01:12 PM

Lighten up guys - your replies are not coming over particularly friendly manner. I am sure the CP5 is a fine instrument to practice on. Quite often college pianos have a pretty hard life. Also when they are tuned all the pianos are done over a relatively short period of time by a grossly underpaid and overworked piano tuner. As a result possibly not much time is spent on each piano with only the top ones being tuned carefully.
Posted by: ando

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: funkycornwall
Lighten up guys - your replies are not coming over particularly friendly manner. I am sure the CP5 is a fine instrument to practice on. Quite often college pianos have a pretty hard life. Also when they are tuned all the pianos are done over a relatively short period of time by a grossly underpaid and overworked piano tuner. As a result possibly not much time is spent on each piano with only the top ones being tuned carefully.


Which is why they shouldn't have been described as "mostly well regulated Yamahas, Kawais, and Steinways". If he had described them as "mostly worn and poorly maintained and tuned practice pianos", then it would make perfect sense to prefer a quality digital for practising. I know what practice room pianos are like - they aren't "well" anything!
Posted by: andi85

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 01:59 PM

Well … actually I'm still pretty happy with my CP5. A few points match my personal experiences as follows:

- Acoustic pianos – for my jazz work they work very well. I liked them better than the competitors, and their ability to blend with the ensemble makes my work a lot easier. With the CP5 I have little to worry in terms of my sound. What seems absolutely far out to me, though, is that they didn't include the last bit of detail, like true sympathetic resonance, pedal noises and so on. I'm sure Yamaha does have the knowledge. I also don't understand why they left out upright sounds or a Bosendorfer - heck, they even own the company!

- User interface - actually I think it's not so bad. I seriously think it's logical and well thought through, however, it needs a little effort to understand it. Insofar I can absolutely understand people losing their interest.

- Size and weight - the CP5 is too heavy and pretty bulky without a good reason. Still, I think it is easier to grab than the RD700. The CP50 seems alright to me.
Posted by: Pete the bean

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 02:11 PM

I would love to have a Cp1, I love the action, but at $5k it makes no sense. The depreciation on electronic gear is too steep.
So, I drag my 20 imac to the gig and use Ivory and Lounge lizard plugins. At least the plugins are upgradable and the sounds are as good (Wurlitzer on Lounge lizard is better for sure) than the CP1. The down side is that there are a lot of variables that could go wrong getting the sound from the computer to out the speaker. (Like forgetting the dongle at home frown )
I think manufacturers are going to have to step up their game, bring down the cost and make the gear upgradeable or software is going to knock them out of the game completely.
Posted by: Dave Ferris

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 02:18 PM

The one time I A/B ed the CP5 & 1 at Yamaha HQ, the CP1 was clearly fuller and thicker on the CF Grand & Rhodes. Now whether that fullness would be apparent in a live situation with bass and drums, I'd question that. More noticeable for solo playing and probably on a recording.
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/27/12 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: funkycornwall
Lighten up guys - your replies are not coming over particularly friendly manner.


Actually, a post starting like this doesn't seem particularly friendly!
Posted by: Peakly

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/28/12 01:54 AM

Originally Posted By: johannus
It's mostly Kawai and Yamaha uprights which most are okay, a couple are good, but there are a decent amount that are extremely frustrating to practice on.


I've been there. It was pretty much like that at the college I went to in Texas, and at another college in Oregon where I used to sneak into the practice rooms : )

That's cool that your digital keyboard is helping you learn to play. I've played a lot of different keyboards besides pianos, including some great pipe organs. Open one of those up, pull the stops out, and that is an experience you won't get from a piano or a digital keyboard!

Mychal
Posted by: johannus

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/28/12 11:47 PM

I guess I should have specified that I meant most of them are pretty well regulated, not that there are many extremely well regulated pianos. I could see where someone would misinterpret that.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/29/12 07:55 AM

Is the "prices Paid" list on this forum really indicative of the sales figures of the DP models worldwide ??! I don't think so. Perhaps some people are more inclined to post their buying prices on a forum then others. And that those same people also show a certain preference for one DP brand or model over the other. Not that we should make psychological profiles of all owners to balance the results, but I don't think this list is a proper way to give an unbiased judgement. I didn't post my "paid prices" of the piano's I had and own in the list - I assume there must be many others that didn't either. Real and verified official sales figures of each brand and model, will tell a better story. Let's leave the price paid list for what it is - comparing prices, not judging the success of a brand or model...
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Were the lastest Yamaha CP series a flop? - 11/30/12 12:41 PM

JFP, I think the prices posted in that specific thread reflect the price that the posters posted. smile