NU1 vs N1 vs N2

Posted by: oivavoi

NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 04:53 PM

Hi,
I realize there has been another thread going on about the N1 recently, but hope it's ok that I start another (and related) one here.

The thing is: I'm certain that I want a yamaha avantgrand. But I can't decide whether I should buy a NU1, a N1 or a N2.

My "digital piano story" started this spring, when I had to sell my acoustic, as it just made too much noise in my apartment building. I figured I needed a DP in order to use headphones (with the possibility of playing around with electronic music as an extra bonus). I ended up buying a Casio Celviano AP620. My reasoning was that since DPs still can't compete with acoustics, I could just as well buy one of the comparably cheaper models. But... frankly, it just didn't do it for me - the decay time of the built in samples was horrible, and I just couldn't get any pleasure out of interacting with the instrument. So I sold it after some weeks, at a loss.

So. I realized I had to move up some levels and save up the money to buy an avantgrand. I had tried out the N1 in a shop, and completely adored it. But I was now in the upper limits of what I could possibly justify to myself spending on a dp. However, as the months have gone by I have grown used to the thought of spending a load of bucks on an avantgrand... considering that music and playing is the most important thing to me in life after my family/friends and my job (which has nothing to do with music), and that I'm likely to have this instrument for a long time. But I can't decide on how much I should spend, and which model to go for.

Anyways: I would love to hear the opinion of people who have tried two or more of these intstruments. Pros, cons, is it worth paying the extra bucks for the higher end model(s)? (that obviously dependes on one's financial situation, but still)

My initial gut reaction, after playing all three:
NU1: A really sweet and nice and great instrument. Well-rounded, balanced, great upright action, I like the size. However, I realize that I miss the grand action on the N1 and N2. And the sample sound is a bit bright.

N1: Also a great instrument, of course. I like the more mellow sound, compared the NU1. And also prefer the grand action. However, a bit bulky. And the sound generated by the speakers can be a bit "plasticky" at times, even more so than the NU1.

N2: A fantastic fantastic fantastic instrument, that I think I could literally play for hours, just improvising and playing and having fun. Less bulk than the N1, even better keytops, better speakers, etc etc. Total infatuation.

Or, to put in a list with pros and cons:
NU1:
Pros: Price (compared to N1 and N2), size (compared to N1), general "well-roundedness" (vague, but yap).
Cons: No grand action, brighter sound

N1:
Pros: Price (compared to N2), grand action (compared to NU1), sample sound (compared to NU1)
Cons: Price (compared to NU1), size/bulk, action/keytops (compared to N2), speaker sound (compared to both N2 and NU1)

N2:
Pros: Best action, better speakers/sound, size/bulk (compared to N1), interaction with instrument, general awesomeness
Cons: Price! (nothing else)

I would really like to hear the opinion of others who have played these instruments... do you think it's worth the leap up from NU1 to N1 and/or from N1 to N2? Why yes, why not?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 05:13 PM

Well, considering what you get with the N1, which is almost everything I have in my N3, the N1 makes perfect sense and it's considerably less expensive.

A loud piano is an issue for you so I might assume you will do a fair amount of practicing with headphones. In that case, the N1 is just about the same piano as the N3 ... and the N3 costs twice (or more) as much.

This is a no brainer. You just have to decide for yourself what you want, the NU1 or the N1. If you have a cat, the N2 would be ruled out unless your cat is declawed. smile

I only bought the N3 since it was introduced first and it was time for me to trade in my GranTouch.

(Where is that regular forum member who says that pianos are not loud? ... and yet another thread on loud pianos.)
Posted by: Bogs

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 05:27 PM

I haven't tried any, but I don't think that the bulk/weight/size matters because all 3 of them are quite heavy - it's not like you can carry them around.

Then the N1 vs N2 (vs N3) has been debated before and the consensus is that N1 has the best value out of the 3. You pay A LOT more only for better speakers and the vibrating keys, yet it will still not be an acoustic piano. *that said, if you have the $, then go ahead and purchase the finest

So it really boils down to NU1 vs N1, I think. If we eliminate the bulk and the N2 out of the equation, then you have question "Is the price difference between N1 and NU1 worth the better action, better samples but worse sound system?" If you already "realize that I miss the grand action on the N1", I think yes.

Good luck with your decision!
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 05:47 PM

It seems to me that between the N1 and NU1 you already have a preference for the N1. So what's holding you back? If it's a budget question then the N2 and 3 are self-excluded. If not it's between the N1, 2 and 3.

I have played mainly the N1 and NU1 and preferred the NU1 tone (Bright? - are you kidding smile ) and also its lighter key action (I'm a forever beginner). The N1 is just plain ugly too IMHO if that matters to you.

I also played either the N2 or N3, the one with TRS keyboard vibration, and found it to be totally fake. Maybe it's adjustable? But I would not make a decision based on that feature as a consideration.
Posted by: Vid

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 05:54 PM

I tried all three last weekend as well as the Kawai CA93. I found the Avant Grands were better mainly because the feel of the action was that more real. I don't see how a simulated action will would beat the real thing.

The N1 was about $2000 (CAD) more than the NU1 and I think it was even a bigger jump ~ $3000 between the N1 and N2. For me the grand touch of the N1 easily beats that of the NU1. The difference between the N1 and N2 was not so great. I didn't really think much about the vibrating keys and it was hard to tell the speaker difference with the store being busy. I will have to try the N2 again. It was tucked into a corner so I couldn't actually sit at it properly and give it a good go.

I think the N1 is probably the best buy for your money. But if you can afford it and are infatuated why not go for it? Its likely a purchase with which you spend many hours with.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 05:58 PM

Yamaha was smart, they introduced the N1 last. I like the looks of my N3 and like all the stuff I can place on it (just like any other small baby grand); had the N1 been introduced first, I would have bought two N1s.

I'm curious what the next line of hybrid pianos from Yamaha will look like ... and offer.
Posted by: oivavoi

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 07:31 PM

Thanks guys, great replies! Really appreciate the advise. Yap, I certainly agree that the N1 is much better value for money than the N2 and the N3 (it really doesn't make sense to almost double the price for what you get extra at the N2). And I guess there's no doubt the NU1 is really the best buy of them all, in terms of what you get for your buck. Just have to figure out how much the little extra is worth for me.


Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
If you have a cat, the N2 would be ruled out unless your cat is declawed. smile


Man... you might have saved me a ruined big investment. That didn't occur to me at all. I have two cats. And they love destroying my furniture. So that's scratchable material up there...? And scratching will destroy some of the functioning...? If so, the N2 is actually out of the picture.

[edit]
I was thinking of the top and the open lid as the area that could be scratched at first when I read your comment. But of course, the speaker close to the floor will be very prone to scratching, I realize that now. Hm. Stupid cats wink
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 08:17 PM

Is there not some kind of spray product that can be used to prevent cats scratching furniture?

James
x
Posted by: pv88

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: oivavoi
I ended up buying a Casio Celviano AP620. My reasoning was that since DPs still can't compete with acoustics, I could just as well buy one of the comparably cheaper models. But... frankly, it just didn't do it for me - the decay time of the built in samples was horrible, and I just couldn't get any pleasure out of interacting with the instrument. So I sold it after some weeks, at a loss.


@oivavoi,

Don't feel too bad for having to sell your Casio AP-620, as I am also in agreement about the extremely short decay of the samples which are not sufficient.

As there are many other choices to consider... smile
Posted by: ando

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/29/12 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is there not some kind of spray product that can be used to prevent cats scratching furniture?

James
x


Yeah, but it's really hard to spray a cat because they are so fast...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 12:12 AM

Lol, I was thinking more along the lines of spraying the furniture.

Oh wait...
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 12:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is there not some kind of spray product that can be used to prevent cats scratching furniture?

James
x


I find a canvas bag, a couple of bricks and a river are the perfect solution to the problem of destructive cats. But then I'm not really a cat person, I have a dog. I never did understand the attraction of sharing your living space with a litter tray (and most people put that in the kitchen!) - it almost defines the word disgusting. And for those cat fanatics that have cats trained to "go" outside, thanks very much. It basically means they are sh*tting in my garden, not yours. Bloody things.

Anyway, to the OP the cat issue is a shame because I think your heart was set on the N2 (over many years of ownership the additional expense is irrelevant in my view). I think the N2 has far and away a better sound system than the other two, the TRS (vibrating keys) is adjustable (three levels plus off) and the key surface is superior and the N2 is better looking than the others (the only downside being that you really need the lid up, which looks a bit daft). But if the moggies will rag the speaker covering then it's out of the running I guess?

Good luck with whatever you decide,

Steve
Posted by: ando

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is there not some kind of spray product that can be used to prevent cats scratching furniture?

James
x


I find a canvas bag, a couple of bricks and a river are the perfect solution to the problem of destructive cats. But then I'm not really a cat person, I have a dog. I never did understand the attraction of sharing your living space with a litter tray (and most people put that in the kitchen!) - it almost defines the word disgusting. And for those cat fanatics that have cats trained to "go" outside, thanks very much. It basically means they are sh*tting in my garden, not yours. Bloody things.


Haha, I think we'd get along very well, Steve
Posted by: pv88

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 01:53 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is there not some kind of spray product that can be used to prevent cats scratching furniture?

James
x


I find a canvas bag, a couple of bricks and a river are the perfect solution to the problem of destructive cats. But then I'm not really a cat person, I have a dog. I never did understand the attraction of sharing your living space with a litter tray (and most people put that in the kitchen!) - it almost defines the word disgusting. And for those cat fanatics that have cats trained to "go" outside, thanks very much. It basically means they are sh*tting in my garden, not yours. Bloody things.


Haha, I think we'd get along very well, Steve


Extra note:

I am currently in the process of eliminating all of the pesky little rodents (i.e., mice) that appear to running around in my place, as they won't be sharing any more "space" with me!

They **** on everything, and, carry disease.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is there not some kind of spray product that can be used to prevent cats scratching furniture?

James
x


There is. Instead of repelling the cats, the scent makes them feel as if where you sprayed is from them. I learned that lesson after our sofas were destroyed by our lovely cat.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 07:22 AM

Rope works quite well. Requires only one application. smile
Posted by: oivavoi

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 07:53 AM

Hey, what's up with the cat haters in this forum! wink
(but I also love dogs even more, to be honest, but can't find the time to have one with my current schedule... The cats keep each other company though, so having two cats is actually not that much of a hassle at all, except for the occasional scratching of furniture and the extra cleaning that is required of course)

Yes, there are sprays, Kawai James. However, my experiences are mixed. I bought one spray two years ago that worked like a dream, my cats never went near where I sprayed. I bought a new one now to spray on a new carpet, and it doesn't seem to work at all. So maybe some work better than others. If I find one that works really well I might still buy the N2.

(@Essbrace: Yes, I think my heart was set on the N2. But it's going to take a huge toll on my financial situation... and there's the whole cat situation, which I didn't even think about prior to this thread)
Posted by: 36251

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 09:06 AM

I think you can easily come up with a DIY solution using netting around the sides. The kitty couldn't sit on the top while it's up, the music stand covers a good portion. That leaves a small portion that netting could easily work.

I agree this needs to be done. My departed kitty would surely try his best to annoy me while I played but remember it's 1/2 their's anyway.
Posted by: oivavoi

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 09:53 AM

Originally Posted By: 36251
I think you can easily come up with a DIY solution using netting around the sides. The kitty couldn't sit on the top while it's up, the music stand covers a good portion. That leaves a small portion that netting could easily work.

I agree this needs to be done. My departed kitty would surely try his best to annoy me while I played but remember it's 1/2 their's anyway.


Hm, interesting proposal. I guess that could work. But you don't think the netting would interfere with the sound?
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 10:08 AM

Originally Posted By: oivavoi

Hm, interesting proposal. I guess that could work. But you don't think the netting would interfere with the sound?


It wouldn't compromise the sound, but it wouldn't look good. There is a more obvious and easy solution . . .
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 10:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: oivavoi

Hm, interesting proposal. I guess that could work. But you don't think the netting would interfere with the sound?


It wouldn't compromise the sound, but it wouldn't look good. There is a more obvious and easy solution . . .


Posted by: 36251

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: oivavoi
Hm, interesting proposal. I guess that could work. But you don't think the netting would interfere with the sound?
I can't see how the netting could change the sound. I thinking fish netting you see being used for decorative shoreline art.

Think about this, the N1 has a very large flat top that any cat would find luxurious and the speakers have grills with holes that a cat might claw and get stuck in. The N2 (more expensive instrument,) but doesn't have many desirable places for cat to hang out when top is up.

Cats and keyboards are always tough cause a cat usually will dislike the sound and that we're not giving them enough attention and find it necessary to remind us relentlessly.

What do people do that have grands and the lid open? I don't think you want a cat hanging out inside a Steinway B.
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 11:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: oivavoi

Hm, interesting proposal. I guess that could work. But you don't think the netting would interfere with the sound?


It wouldn't compromise the sound, but it wouldn't look good. There is a more obvious and easy solution . . .




Yep. For once, Dave and I are in complete agreement! smile
Posted by: Ozan

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 11:43 AM

Do you guys know how much the AvantGrands cost in real life? Like how much it costs to manufacture these pianos.
I find it a bit ridiculous that you have to pay 4000 dollars/euros more for a N2, just becausse it has vibrating keys and a bit better build-in speakers ..
I asked this question to the store owner and he told me more "work hour" has gone into the N2 then the N1, thats cute but that doesnt mean i have to pay 4000 more for the N2 as a customer ..
Like did they put state of the art alien technology speakers in the N2 to warant the 4000 difference?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 12:22 PM

Ozan, you just summed up why the N1 is the best deal for anyone wanting to save some hard earned money.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 01:12 PM

Why does the N2 cost $4000 more than an N1?

Because people will pay $4000 more for an N2 than for an N1. It has little to do with the parts-and-labor content.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 01:31 PM

Staying with cats. There were several threads about protecting Grands over on the Piano forum.

I don't recall seeing the radical solutions suggested here, maybe that says something about us DP players smile but I think the most popular suggestions were:

Err, keep the cat out of the piano room.

Drape something soft over the piano in such a way if the cat tries to get on, it slides off, cat and all.

Use an electronic movement detector which activates an aerosol air puff. Cats hate puffs or hisses of air. These gadgets are available from Amazon. After a while the cat learns to give the guarded piano a miss.
Posted by: ap55

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Bogs


If you already "realize that I miss the grand action on the N1", I think yes.



I must have missed something. How can you miss the grand action on the N1. The N1 has a grand action ?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 03:22 PM

ap55, the N1, N2, and N3 all have the same grand piano action. The NU1 has the action from an upright.

comparison between the N1, N2, and N3
Posted by: ap55

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 03:33 PM

Dave, You recall only what I expect, but may be my English is too bad to understand? I understood he is missing the grand action on the N1. So what is the issue on the missing grand action for the N1 ?
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 11/30/12 03:48 PM

Originally Posted By: ap55

Dave, You recall only what I expect, but may be my English is to bad to understand? I understood he is missing the grand action on the N1. So what is the issue on the missing grand action for the N1 ?

He was comparing it to the NU1.
Posted by: Karnevil

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/01/12 06:00 AM

To my mind, the only reason I would spend so much money for a DP, would be because living in a condo and not bothering the neighbours. That kinda defeats the idea of spending almost double the price for an N2 vs. an N1, if you're gonna play 95% of the time (or more) with headphones.
I've played the N2, and sure, it is a more enticing instrument, but I'm completely happy with my N1 purchase. I do agree, the speakers in the N1 is probably its biggest achilles heal (very dependent on the room's acoustics), but I hardly ever use them anyway.
The keytop difference is really minimal. The keytops of N2/N3 are still inferior to a HQ acoustic grand anyway. I was impressed by the vibrating keys at first, when you quickly realise that it matters very little in day-to-day practicing. You need to also practice on acoustics anyway, in addition to your AvantGrand..

On the other hand, if you're loaded with money..why not get the N2? I assume that is not the case, because then you'd just go ahead and get the N2 anyway. So my advice is to get the N1.
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/01/12 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Ozan
Do you guys know how much the AvantGrands cost in real life? Like how much it costs to manufacture these pianos.
I find it a bit ridiculous that you have to pay 4000 dollars/euros more for a N2, just becausse it has vibrating keys and a bit better build-in speakers ..
I asked this question to the store owner and he told me more "work hour" has gone into the N2 then the N1, thats cute but that doesnt mean i have to pay 4000 more for the N2 as a customer ..
Like did they put state of the art alien technology speakers in the N2 to warant the 4000 difference?


It's called "Corporate Greed" here in America.

K.
Posted by: oivavoi

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/01/12 12:13 PM

Thanks guys, appreciate all the opinions coming in!
The electronic movement detector surely seems interesting. I'll look into that.

Concerning grand action: Yes, I missed the grand action on the N1 and N2 when I played the NU1. The NU1 doesn't have grand action, as has been explained here.

And I agree. It is completely ridicolous to charge double the prize for the N2 compared to the N1. Perhaps prices are going to go down, what with the financial crisis and all? And it's been a while since the N2 was introduced.
Posted by: ap55

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/01/12 01:13 PM

From the technical aspects 20% more for the N2 compared to the N1 would be justified. All what is above can only be generated due to better quality - otherwise the dealer should be able to give it away for a much better price.
Posted by: Karnevil

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/01/12 01:22 PM

20% more? Here in Norway the list price of N2 is almost twice the price of the N1. 107,000kr vs. 62,000kr (1 am.dollar = 5.7 norw. kroner)
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/01/12 01:51 PM

My fellow Americans will always complain about prices and always want the lowest price but forget that other countries might charge a 25 percent import tax and a 21 percent VAT. smile

On the other hand, the roads are nice over here.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/01/12 06:41 PM

As someone has already said ... a thing is worth whatever someone pays for it. If someone paid 107,000 kr for an N2, then it was worth 107,000 kr to that person.

But we don't know whether that person negotiated the selling price. So you might well be able to buy at a much lower price. In high-priced retail good there's usually lots of room for price negotiation.
Posted by: ap55

Re: NU1 vs N1 vs N2 - 12/02/12 09:35 AM

Karnevil, Dave and MacMacMac,
I used the phrase "would be justified". I know the differences for the displayed prices between N1 and N2 is the same in Germany compared to what you experience in your location. I experience also the Corporate Greed in Germany. Nevertheless I wonder if Yamaha has estalished a relief valve for those sharing this position of oviavio.
See it that way, there are some few people at a lot of companies which are working hard and which are eager to create a nice product and there are some who are doing the job. There are also some who make reputation for the product and raise the price, for which reason ever. In this case you have to pay or to work hard to receive the price you want to have. Sometimes you won't be able to get a better price at all, due to the rules of the market, but you can be lucky because there is competition, isn't it ?