Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it!

Posted by: Susan_B

Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 12:52 AM

Now that I've had the N1 for several weeks, I can clearly state that I'm happy with my decision. First off, my teacher said at my last lesson that it's as if a different student had walked in and taken my place. She continued to say she almost couldn't believe the improvement in my playing and technique in such a short period. I owe that to the AG's action. The sound isn't ideal, but I've grown used to it and I really appreciate the fact that it's always in tune!

I've noticed that I'm more inclined to play certain measures over and over without fear that I'll bother the neighbors in the condominium complex. I also play late at night with headphones. All in all, I'm happy with the AG N1.

Here's a side note: I ordered a pair of Sennheiser HD 650s and didn't notice any descernable improvement in sound over my less expensive ones, so I sent them back. They were also less comfortable than my previous set.
Posted by: Kenboi2

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 01:05 AM

Susan, I am happy that you kept your N1 and that it helped you to improve your piano playing. Can you tell me which head phones you were using? My sony MDR-V900 seems to do a pretty good job, but I want to try out a different brand for comparision. What do you recommend for clarity with some bass?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 03:27 AM

Glad that the piano worked out well for you!
Posted by: 36251

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 06:31 AM

It's refreshing to see you change your mind in this open forum and am glad you're getting everything that the AG was designed for.

I'm going to be the child here (cause I can't resist...) and say I told ya so. It's miles ahead of any upright or old grand

You can always visit piano stores, religious kiosks, friends, and your teacher to play on a real grand and someday you might even be in the position to have your own. But even then, I think having an AG has merit.
Posted by: ando

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 07:01 AM

Originally Posted By: 36251

It's miles ahead of any upright


No, it really isn't. If it were, they would sell more of them. It has a certain advantage because of the action to some customers. It terms of sound, my Yamaha U3 upright easily smokes it. The AG doesn't have the dynamic range, the sustain, or the natural decay of a real piano. The looped samples are a major shortcoming of the AG. It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples. If that meant putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of better hardware in there, so be it. The AG should have been a no-compromise instrument - at least in terms of action and sound samples. They only got it half right. To some, the action means more than the sound. They are the ones who are happy with their AG. The AG is nice, but let's not get too carried away by what it can do.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 07:17 AM

Is not
Is too
Is not
Is too

shocked
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 08:07 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
The AG doesn't have the dynamic range, the sustain, or the natural decay of a real piano. The looped samples are a major shortcoming of the AG.

I'm listening to the N3 DPBSD MP3 again and the note decays are really too short IMO. The pedal sympathetic resonance isn't bad, but the algorithm is perhaps too simplistic because it seems to accentuate the sound of some of the loops (which are also quite short) rather than mask them. The looping sound during the silent replay test is quite obnoxious, and on many notes there is a gradual timbre change during the crossfade from attack to loop that is somewhat unnatural sounding.

The short decay time could lead to bad pedaling habits long-term, as one might be inclined to hold the pedal down more in an attempt to get more out of it. The AG might make a good second piano if one already owns a good acoustic, or make a good VST controller, but as a main axe is probably asking too much of it IMO.
Posted by: 36251

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: 36251

It's miles ahead of any upright


No, it really isn't. If it were, they would sell more of them. It has a certain advantage because of the action to some customers. It terms of sound, my Yamaha U3 upright easily smokes it. The AG doesn't have the dynamic range, the sustain, or the natural decay of a real piano. The looped samples are a major shortcoming of the AG. It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples. If that meant putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of better hardware in there, so be it. The AG should have been a no-compromise instrument - at least in terms of action and sound samples. They only got it half right. To some, the action means more than the sound. They are the ones who are happy with their AG. The AG is nice, but let's not get too carried away by what it can do.
I appreciate the aesthetics of an acoustic instrument and if I had the money and space I'd certainly have both. But for people that don't live by themselves in a house and are not already accomplished players, I stand by my post.

As far as why they don't sell better...they're expensive. A used upright or cheap Casio is probably the instrument of choice. IMO, having great action and a tuned instrument and the ability to play stealth is an advantage for many people.

The other issue with this constant debate is based of what type of music is being played. I play mostly jazz and occasionally classical. I can certainly understand someone playing classical getting more feedback from an acoustic but I don't think the decay,variety of timbre, soft pedal is very good. Give me the tuned AG every time.

As I've said before on this site, I owned a Steinway K 52" upright, that my piano tuner called "one of the best uprights he's every played or heard." Since I decided to part ways with it for AG, I feel I've made great strides at practicing more thoroughly and am always inspired by the feel (and sound) of it. I guess, I'm a "glass 1/2 full guy" and don't waste time trying to find fault with it. The good outweighs the bad and never think that I made the wrong choice.
Posted by: Acca

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Susan_B

Here's a side note: I ordered a pair of Sennheiser HD 650s and didn't notice any descernable improvement in sound over my less expensive ones, so I sent them back. They were also less comfortable than my previous set.


Any improvement in the headphones are not going to overcome the inherent sound quality. Have you tried a software based solution? If you are after better sound, that will be a big improvement.

Do you find the touch and response very similar to the piano played at your lessons? (which I assume is a grand piano)

I have been flip-flopping between an N1 or a cheap grand... and I'm leaning towards the N1. I really don't have a good space for a grand piano (I can fit it in my lounge but it's not ideal), and the fact the N1 is small yet has a genuine action and comes with the ability to practice with headphones is really appealing. I can always get a real grand later when I have more space (and I will be better at playing having practiced on an N1!) I hope to actually try one next week!
Posted by: ando

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: 36251

I appreciate the aesthetics of an acoustic instrument and if I had the money and space I'd certainly have both. But for people that don't live by themselves in a house and are not already accomplished players, I stand by my post.

It's not just aesthetics - it's better sound from real strings and hammers.

Nobody has ever disputed their utility - they can be played silently/quietly. They have a grand-like action (minus the connection to high quality sound, minus the damper weight, so not really an exact copy of a grand action.) You made a statement which is highly debatable - that an AG is miles ahead of any upright. Many would disagree with you.

Quote:
As far as why they don't sell better...they're expensive. A used upright or cheap Casio is probably the instrument of choice.
A new upright still costs more than an AG. A cheap upright costs more than an N1. A high end upright costs more than an N3. And everything in between. More people buy uprights than AGs. The convenience and advantages of the AG notwithstanding.

[quote]IMO, having great action and a tuned instrument and the ability to play stealth is an advantage for many people.


That goes without question that that is one of the strong points of the AGs. Nobody is disputing that.

Quote:
The other issue with this constant debate is based of what type of music is being played. I play mostly jazz and occasionally classical. I can certainly understand someone playing classical getting more feedback from an acoustic but I don't think the decay,variety of timbre, soft pedal is very good. Give me the tuned AG every time.


Acoustic pianos can be tuned, you know. Aside from that, every shortcoming you list about the sound of an upright is worse on the AG. The looped samples, the poor decay, the lack of tonal variation, the boxy sound of the speakers. It's all there for anybody to hear. Tuning is only one parameter of a good piano sound.

Quote:

I guess, I'm a "glass 1/2 full guy" and don't waste time trying to find fault with it. The good outweighs the bad and never think that I made the wrong choice.


This isn't only about you though. For many people the acoustic offers far more. You are characterising yourself as a positive type, seeing the glass as half-full, but you are very negative about upright acoustic pianos - whereas I like them far more. You might as well call me a glass half-full type guy, with you being the one who wastes time finding fault with acoustics. There's no difference - apart from the preference and priorities we have.

Finally, nobody is trying to make you think you made the wrong choice. It's great that you are happy with your piano. But you invited a challenge by stating so categorically that an AG is miles ahead of any upright. That is your opinion, and the opinion of a minority. More people like upright acoustics - that's a fact.
Posted by: 36251

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
That is your opinion, and the opinion of a minority. More people like upright acoustics - that's a fact.


In a loving way, may I say: <raspberry>
Posted by: Kos

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: ando
It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples.

Actually, there's a very good excuse for it: Yamaha has to worry about creating competition to their own acoustic products. AvantGrand with software piano-like samples would be too much of a sweet spot compared to an entry level baby grand.

Originally Posted By: dewster
The AG might make a good VST controller

6500 euros for a MIDI controller, now these are the times smile
Posted by: ando

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 10:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Kos
Originally Posted By: ando
It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples.

Actually, there's a very good excuse for it: Yamaha has to worry about creating competition to their own acoustic products. AvantGrand with software piano-like samples would be too much of a sweet spot compared to an entry level baby grand.


So in other words, they've deliberately sacrificed sound quality and emphasised other features so it doesn't step on the toes of its acoustic brethren. That's all I've been saying. I'm all for the other features, I just think the sound isn't up to scratch. At some point I expect them to change this philosophy and I think they'll build a truly spectacular AG. Until they get the sound right and stop being stingy with the sample size and resonance simulation, it's acoustic for me. Trust me, if they could make these AGs actually sound close to an acoustic - I'd buy one tomorrow.
Posted by: Susan_B

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 10:14 AM

kenboi2, the headphones I use are Ultrasone s-logic, made in Germany. They were around $100. I didn't notice any difference in sound quality with the AG between these and the much more expensive HD650. The Ultrasones are comfortable, too.

To all, yes, in a perfect world the sound would be better than it is on the AG, but as I've said, I've grown used to it. I'm quite happy with it now and appreciate the control I have playing certain pieces that I did not have with the upright. I decided to start this thread because I knew some people who were interested in buying an AG had followed the other thread. I wanted those people in particular to know this hybrid has been a wonderful solution to my practice needs.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 11:03 AM

This is not a reason for Yamaha to cut corners ...
Originally Posted By: Kos
Originally Posted By: ando
It's inexcusable that such a product cuts corners on sound when it would have been so easy to put in full length samples.

Actually, there's a very good excuse for it: Yamaha has to worry about creating competition to their own acoustic products. AvantGrand with software piano-like samples would be too much of a sweet spot compared to an entry level baby grand.

Yamaha really should set up the AGs to compete directly with their uprights and small grand pianos. Those who like piano via speakers can buy an AG. Those who cannot can buy the acoustic.

In the end I suspect that an AG sale is preferable for Yamaha. The AGs may be more profitable, since they've shed a great deal of the material and labor needed to manufacture an acoustic: No fine-wood rim, no iron plate, no soundboard, no bridges, no strings, no tuning pins, no prep, lower shipping weight. And it still sells at a high price.

Sweet, for Yamaha.
Posted by: bfb

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 12:41 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac

In the end I suspect that an AG sale is preferable for Yamaha. The AGs may be more profitable, since they've shed a great deal of the material and labor needed to manufacture an acoustic: No fine-wood rim, no iron plate, no soundboard, no bridges, no strings, no tuning pins, no prep, lower shipping weight. And it still sells at a high price.

Sweet, for Yamaha.


+1 on that. particularly since its sounds like they didn't go out of their way to put exceptional software in it.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 01:25 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
In the end I suspect that an AG sale is preferable for Yamaha. The AGs may be more profitable, since they've shed a great deal of the material and labor needed to manufacture an acoustic: No fine-wood rim, no iron plate, no soundboard, no bridges, no strings, no tuning pins, no prep, lower shipping weight. And it still sells at a high price.


I think this is true. Some time in the past, someone said on this forum that an AvantGrand sale makes about as much profit as a silent grand. Of course, that's all hearsay but I certainly could believe that there is a lot of cost savings in the AG relative to a nice acoustic.

As for whether they *should* be putting better technology into it...well, I think we'd all be happy if they did, but they completely own the hybrid market. Competition is what makes businesses put out great stuff. The closest competition to the N1 is upper-level digitals from other manufacturers, which it could be argued are not close substitutes. And those pianos all have looped samples as well. Until there is some really great competition for the AvantGrand line I don't see why Yamaha would bother improving them. Spending zero on R&D for a technology product that just keeps selling has to look good to the accountants.
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 02:05 PM

"Religious kiosks"?

Really??
Posted by: ClsscLib

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: 36251

...You can always visit piano stores, religious kiosks, friends, and your teacher to play on a real grand and someday you might even be in the position to have your own. But even then, I think having an AG has merit.


I had to trade in my N2 to make the deal for my acoustic grand, but I wish I had been able to keep it as a second option.

It didn't take me long to go out and get another, less-expensive-but-still-good DP to supplement the acoustic (which I love).

For many people, acoustic and digital is not "either/or" but rather "yes/and".
Posted by: 36251

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 02:17 PM

Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
"Religious kiosks"?

Really??
That is a new way I thought of while writing post to include all denominations. Most places of worship have a piano. smile
Posted by: Vid

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Susan_B

To all, yes, in a perfect world the sound would be better than it is on the AG, but as I've said, I've grown used to it. I'm quite happy with it now and appreciate the control I have playing certain pieces that I did not have with the upright. I decided to start this thread because I knew some people who were interested in buying an AG had followed the other thread. I wanted those people in particular to know this hybrid has been a wonderful solution to my practice needs.


This is good to know. I'm considering the same solution myself knowing that the sound will be a compromise but a hybrid is possibly better than a poor AP.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 02:46 PM

I'll toss in my two bits on the sound of the AvantGrands. I don't consider them to be on par with good VST's in terms of sound, but I spent a few hours going from one piano to another with my headphones recently (it was mostly a Yamaha shop) and I felt that the AG sound was very noticeably better than its other Yamaha peers. Significantly better than the best Clavinovas in the shop.

While it still has the same type of technical limitations almost all digital pianos have, on a subjective level, I felt that it was pretty good overall.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I'll toss in my two bits on the sound of the AvantGrands. I don't consider them to be on par with good VST's in terms of sound, but I spent a few hours going from one piano to another with my headphones recently (it was mostly a Yamaha shop) and I felt that the AG sound was very noticeably better than its other Yamaha peers. Significantly better than the best Clavinovas in the shop.

It's probably the longer attack samples and noticeable pedal sympathetic resonance that set it apart from the other Yamahas. Though even with that VST material it ain't.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
...I spent a few hours going from one piano to another with my headphones recently (it was mostly a Yamaha shop) and I felt that the AG sound was very noticeably better than its other Yamaha peers. Significantly better than the best Clavinovas in the shop.

While it still has the same type of technical limitations almost all digital pianos have, on a subjective level, I felt that it was pretty good overall.


Hit the nail on the head. The AG is far from perfect but does a decent job. Those that consider it a grown-up Clavinova are wide of the mark; the AG is very superior.

I would choose the AG over a poor or ill-maintained acoustic. And I would choose it over many uprights that are themselves fair-to-middling. But a decent upright is a much more rewarding thing to play than the AG. And any good grand blows the AG away. But for those that are operating within the limitation that simply says an acoustic is out of the question (volume issues and perhaps those extremely sensitive to tuning issues) can't go far wrong with the AG. And as a practice tool specifically for technique-building - where feel is more important than sound - the AG is probably a better solution than other digitals.

I'm very glad it is working out for you Susan!
Posted by: Susan_B

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/21/12 05:09 PM

Thank you, everyone. I'm glad it ended up to be the right choice for me, at least right now. The sound doesn't bother me much anymore. It's a wonderful practice instrument. As far as action, there is little or no adjustment now when I transition to my teacher's Bosendorfer.
Posted by: oivavoi

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns

As for whether they *should* be putting better technology into it...well, I think we'd all be happy if they did, but they completely own the hybrid market. Competition is what makes businesses put out great stuff. The closest competition to the N1 is upper-level digitals from other manufacturers, which it could be argued are not close substitutes. And those pianos all have looped samples as well. Until there is some really great competition for the AvantGrand line I don't see why Yamaha would bother improving them. Spending zero on R&D for a technology product that just keeps selling has to look good to the accountants.


It strikes me as strange that none of the other big manufacturers also jump on the hybrid wagon. Why aren't Kawai or Roland trying to make something similar?
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 09:44 AM

I suspect Roland doesn't because they don't have the acoustic expertise and manufacturing capability. I just don't see that in their future.

Kawai could for sure, but they would have to feel that there is enough room in the hybrid market for two players. If they made one there would be basically no difference in action and they would have to compete on sound quality, which means more R&D and they would probably be also rans anyway because of the smaller brand recognition and distribution. And with two players the price might go down, which lowers incentive anyway. There's a big first-mover advantage, I think.

Not saying it's impossible. It would be cool, actually. I guess we can cross fingers. Somehow I actually think Kawai would do an even better job at it. Their engineers seem to be quite focused on action authenticity.
Posted by: oivavoi

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns


Not saying it's impossible. It would be cool, actually. I guess we can cross fingers. Somehow I actually think Kawai would do an even better job at it. Their engineers seem to be quite focused on action authenticity.


Of course Yamaha has an advantage since they've been developing the hybrid technology for years. However, I agree that Kawai might do an even better job if they tried! Imo Kawai beats Yamaha hands down when it comes to "ordinary" dps - at least in terms of action. My dream hybrid: Good action and speakers - AND a integrated mini-pc that is able to run software pianos. If Kawai did something like that they would still distinguish themselves from Yamaha. How hard can it be to accomplish that? This is 2012! (for some more days)
Posted by: KarelG

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 04:41 PM

Originally Posted By: oivavoi

Of course Yamaha has an advantage since they've been developing the hybrid technology for years. However, I agree that Kawai might do an even better job if they tried! Imo Kawai beats Yamaha hands down when it comes to "ordinary" dps - at least in terms of action. My dream hybrid: Good action and speakers - AND a integrated mini-pc that is able to run software pianos. If Kawai did something like that they would still distinguish themselves from Yamaha. How hard can it be to accomplish that? This is 2012! (for some more days)


I'm afraid something like that is never going to happen. The reason is simple your dream hybrid will probably need to be priced somewhere below the most cheap baby grand. And the cheapest Kawai is GM-10 which costs ~8000,- Euros, so basically you will have a grand rim, soundboard, action and all the electronic together and you will price it lower? Also for running VST you will need computer and more importantly OS and M$ is heck expensive these days. So where is your price and where is your dealer margin?
I think what Kawai does great is that they are constantly improving their DP actions like we've seen in RHII and GF. If you need hybrid, then go to Yamaha, but be prepared to pay nearly baby grand price. Now, what would you choose? Hybrid with so-so power/sound or real acoustic small grand? Well it also depends on music you are playing. I've seen people here playing jazz and be happy with hybrids and I've seen here people very unhappy with hybrids playing classical/romantic music. Also how much of real sound are able your neighbours to "survive"? Do you practice for an hour a day or for 5 hours a day 7 days in week? If the later the choice is probably obvious, if the former then real grand and kind of cheap DP would also do the job.... I really like unlimited possibilities provided by the current piano market. :-)
Posted by: Susan_B

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 04:52 PM

I agree with ClsscLib. It would be nice to have an acoustic as well as the AG. If I could only have one, I would pick the AG over again, for the grand action and ability to play silently. I may add an acoustic later.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 04:55 PM

Good points. But I wonder about the costs you mention.

Shouldn't it be possible to price hybrids lower than most baby grands?

Consider that the AGs don't need a fine quality rim. And the rim they have is smaller than even the smallest baby grand.

Also, they don't have a sound board. They don't have a plate. And they don't require all of the fine labor needed to make and fit those items.

As such, I think the AGs are grotesquely overpriced. Throw some competition in there and the price might drop. A lot.

But, so far, the demand for these pianos is small. So is the market rich enough to attract additional players?
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
As such, I think the AGs are grotesquely overpriced.

I think most DPs are way overpriced. I mean, I can see paying more for say a Kawai wooden key action, where some effort, time, and skill has to go into the construction and assembly. But the vast majority of DPs are hunks of plastic with cheap speakers, asthmatic processors, and virtually no memory. If there were real competition at work in this market then something like the P95 would be selling for $199 tops IMO.

Also MacMacMac, I agree completely with your previous post in this thread.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
I mean, I can see paying more for say a Kawai wooden key action, where some effort, time, and skill has to go into the construction and assembly.


I wonder about that. Actually Kawai's actions are pretty dang simple. I wonder if they really cost more to develop/build. It's not that I don't like them (I own one) but I think all these things are expensive primarily because the volume is pretty low, not because the materials or workmanship is inherenty costly. Just a gut feeling.

The AG action, on the other hand, is very complex, as are all acoustic grand actions. Luckily they have factories that kick them out a zillion at a time so they don't have to develop them or set up much specialized equipment.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I wonder about that. Actually Kawai's actions are pretty dang simple. I wonder if they really cost more to develop/build.

Simpler than real piano keys definitely, but I would think they are more difficult to manufacture than 100% plastic keys, no? There's woodworking involved, all those paper washers to stack, and the threaded hammer thingie.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
It's not that I don't like them (I own one) but I think all these things are expensive primarily because the volume is pretty low, not because the materials or workmanship is inherenty costly. Just a gut feeling.

Good point.

I wonder what the worldwide sales figures are for DPs vs. guitars? 1:5? 1:10? Guitars sell for considerably less than I would expect given the input labor, though I suppose we do have plenty of effectively slave labor lately.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Simpler than real piano keys definitely, but I would think they are more difficult to manufacture than 100% plastic keys, no? There's woodworking involved, all those paper washers to stack, and the threaded hammer thingie.


You know, I had forgotten about those paper things. I wonder if they are actually installed by hand (or whether they have a machine that does it). An exceptional amount of work seems to go into regulating an acoustic action and if even a small fraction of that is spent on Kawai's wood action, it could add up.

We really need someone to make a documentary video going through one of these factories so we know how it's done. Those types of videos seem pretty easy to find on the acoustic side. Not so much on the digital.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/22/12 07:04 PM

The keyboard (and other) labor in the better Kawai actions would make an interesting video. But I think there are other important considerations, ones that have nothing to do with what happens in production.

The selling price of an item is driven by more than just material, labor, transportation and distribution costs, fixed overhead business costs, and some margin of profit. Those costs only dictate a minimum possible selling price.

Cachet, prestige, and other gloss help drive demand. Smart marketing works to convince a customer that a product is worth more, simply because it's portrayed as more special.

As an extreme case: My wife used to tell a story about how she, as a small child, would sell rocks to neighbors. Nice rocks, mind you: geodes or some sort of crystallized neat stuff. But still, just rocks. For a dime.

Fifteen years later some schmuck got rich when he went national and sold rocks ("Pet Rocks") for a pretty penny.

Perceived value can be driven more by hyped and false perception than by anything of real substance.
Posted by: oivavoi

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 08:42 AM

Obviously I'm not an expert on price issues related to hybirds or digitals, but here's my thoughts, for what it's worth: For me it seems clear that at least the N2 and N3 Avantgrand are grossly overpriced - and probably the N1 as well. Look at the NU-1, it is so much more cheaper - but how much cheaper can it be, production-wise, to put an upright action in there in stead of the grand action that they already HAD developed for the older models? Pretty obvious that they did it in order to distinguish the lower-end model from the others, and thus keep people buying the N1 and N2. I think they could slash the N2 price almost in half and still make a profit, probably. Therefore: If I'm right about this, it should indeed be possible for Kawai or others to make something that is as good (or almost as good) as the N2, sell it cheaper, and still make a profit. Obviously Yamaha would then lower their prices - but that would only be good for us consumers:)

Concerning my proposal to integrate a mini-computer that runs a software piano inside a hybrid: I honestly think that it doesn't have to be that expensive. Such a pc could be tailor made to ONLY run VSTs. They could do it simple by developing a linux-based system and put it on a basic chip, putting in 20 gigs of ssd and 4 gigs of ram, a sound card, a USB connection to add the VST software, and voila - there you have it (take the new Raspberry Pi, for example - 25 dollars, and fully functional as a linux-based media center pc: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/entertainment-cheap-affordable-ways-set-home-theater/). As fas as I know most VSTs today require OSX or Windows, but I guess the manufacturer of such a hybrid could cooperate with one of the VST companies in developing a linux VST package that would work. This is not that big a deal - obviously it would raise the price somewhat, but I don't think it would have to cost more than 100-150 dollars extra (at most) in production cost for each unit (based on my very amateurish understanding, of course).
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 10:17 AM

I think the big for-profit suppliers of OSes and processors have hobbled embedded computing for a couple of decades now. I bought my first 286 with the intention of using it as a general purpose hardware but found that both the processor and the OS were total dogs, almost a complete impediment to getting anything real done at the lowest level.

With Linux and ARM we're seeing an explosion of development and equivalent computing power at a much lower price point. It's too bad ARM isn't open source, but it's more efficient and flexible than the creaky old bloated Intel architectures.
Posted by: Karnevil

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
As such, I think the AGs are grotesquely overpriced.

I think most DPs are way overpriced. I mean, I can see paying more for say a Kawai wooden key action, where some effort, time, and skill has to go into the construction and assembly. But the vast majority of DPs are hunks of plastic with cheap speakers, asthmatic processors, and virtually no memory. If there were real competition at work in this market then something like the P95 would be selling for $199 tops IMO.

Also MacMacMac, I agree completely with your previous post in this thread.


You got it, and the fact is that Yamaha cut several corners with the AvantGrands. I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos. They cut corners with the soft pedal (only on/off), the CPU/DSP (it takes 10 seconds to process a short midi-recording WTF?!, and there's still some very slight lag when performing big multioctave chordal sections with sustain pedal), the damper pedal/DSP (too simplistic effect, unaturally boosts the volume), too short samples/being cheap on RAM which is very inexpensive these days, boxy speaker sound from the N1, which is still a very expensive instrument (don't know how the N2 speakers fare in comparison)..
Another thing is that an acoustic piano will have a lighter touch with the sustain pedal pressed down, this detail is not present on either of the AvantGrands (this would however be difficult to mimic without some serious extra hardware and price increase). The AvantGrands' double-escapement is also a bit "iffy" for playing very fast note repeats.

Anyway, AvantGrands are still the best digital pianos on the market, and I don't regret for a second getting the N1 instead of the N2/N3. The way I see it, the N2/N3 core features (samples and action/pedal response) are in essence the same as N1, which makes them even more grossly overpriced. (For instance the more expensive keytop material used on N2/N3 is not as good as Yamaha's HQ acoustic grands.)
I would certainly welcome more competitions with hybrid pianos (Kawai etc.), that would almost certainly lower the price and further improve the quality.
Having said all this, I'm very happy with my N1 as a practice instrument, and it is certainly very useful for proper practicing without annoying the neighbours or family members. But should it have been even better (with proper 2012 technology)? Yes!
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Karnevil
I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos.

Very interesting observations Karnevil, thanks!

I think what happened with the AG is they called their AP guys into the room and had them modify a short grand mechanism so it suited their DP keyboard guys, who then instrumented it with light pipes & shutters. Then they called their DP sound guys into the room and all they could do was whip out the same old $5 processor and $1 memory they've been using since the dawn of time and everyone else threw up their hands (and lunch). Since this is industry and there is never enough time to do it right the first time, they bolted it all together, shoved it out the door, and called it a day. Marketing then stepped in and hyped it into the stratosphere.

I'm continually flabbergasted that Yamaha can't get sympathetic resonance right, even on a sky's-the-limit kind of product. It's such a fundamental and conspicuous aspect of AP sound.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 05:17 PM

To the original poster, try to keep enjoying your new piano even those others will continue to loudly proclaim why you shouldn't enjoy it. wink
Posted by: Susan_B

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 05:28 PM

Thank you, Dave. I intend to do just that! I'm looking forward to an afternoon of practice.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 08:06 PM

I don't think dewster wishes that anyone should dislike the AG. He's simply reiterating that, for the money, he expects more.

In the end, he seems to think that the AG is just yet another Clavinova clone, but this time with a real piano action. IMPO, such a piano ought not cost as much as a baby grand acoustic piano. But it does! That's the disappointment.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/23/12 08:14 PM

"It is well for the heart to be naive and the mind not to be." Anatole France
Posted by: Karnevil

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/24/12 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Karnevil
I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos.

Very interesting observations Karnevil, thanks!

I think what happened with the AG is they called their AP guys into the room and had them modify a short grand mechanism so it suited their DP keyboard guys, who then instrumented it with light pipes & shutters. Then they called their DP sound guys into the room and all they could do was whip out the same old $5 processor and $1 memory they've been using since the dawn of time and everyone else threw up their hands (and lunch). Since this is industry and there is never enough time to do it right the first time, they bolted it all together, shoved it out the door, and called it a day. Marketing then stepped in and hyped it into the stratosphere.

I'm continually flabbergasted that Yamaha can't get sympathetic resonance right, even on a sky's-the-limit kind of product. It's such a fundamental and conspicuous aspect of AP sound.


smile That's a witty observation, but I think you're pretty close to the truth there!
Posted by: KLSinCT

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/24/12 10:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Karnevil
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Karnevil
I don't know if it's just sloppyness or consciously trying to make AvantGrands inferior "enough" to their acoustic pianos.

Very interesting observations Karnevil, thanks!

I think what happened with the AG is they called their AP guys into the room and had them modify a short grand mechanism so it suited their DP keyboard guys, who then instrumented it with light pipes & shutters. Then they called their DP sound guys into the room and all they could do was whip out the same old $5 processor and $1 memory they've been using since the dawn of time and everyone else threw up their hands (and lunch). Since this is industry and there is never enough time to do it right the first time, they bolted it all together, shoved it out the door, and called it a day. Marketing then stepped in and hyped it into the stratosphere.

I'm continually flabbergasted that Yamaha can't get sympathetic resonance right, even on a sky's-the-limit kind of product. It's such a fundamental and conspicuous aspect of AP sound.


smile That's a witty observation, but I think you're pretty close to the truth there!


+1

K.
Posted by: KarelG

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/24/12 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
[...]
Also, they don't have a sound board. They don't have a plate. And they don't require all of the fine labor needed to make and fit those items.

I've thought the OP I've replied asked Kawai to make such hybrid a reality. When I see CA95 it looks like Kawai is going to "soundboard inside" the most expensive DPs for a good reason (at least based on the claims here on this forum), so for *good* hybrid you certainly need some kind of soundboard, otherwise its functionality will be limited in comparison with at least CA95. I agree with your argument that the rim and whole construction doesn't need to be so heavy as there are no strings, but still it needs soundboard...
Also if you consider AG overpriced (it is indeed), then what you would claim about CA95? Is it overpriced too or not? Certainly here it is on the price of quite good uprights...
Posted by: KarelG

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/24/12 03:11 PM

Honestly speaking I really do not understand all those complains about Yamaha being not good and using $5 CPU and $1 RAM for their flagship DP like AG is. Guys, come on, what's the problem? If you would have Yamaha shares you will be the first who would complain about too good DP torpeding their AP lines and sales! Ditto applies to Kawai and do not forget whole this hybrid market is *small* (just IMHO!). Your R&D needs to be covered by future sales and in addition you need to make board of the company happy. No, it's not the problem to make an ultimate DP/hybrid. The problem is only a lack of money and time for such development. If you are not happy with current AG's sounds why you don't connect some preferred VST to it for a fraction of its price and be happy indefinitely? Why are you complaining? When I've been in a search for a good DP I've also considered AG N1 but seeing this price I've decided to contact Petrof for their MIDI keyboard with real grand action price. They told me a price of N1 +25% up. Add to this VST, amplifier(s), computer, OS license (if needed), repros etc. and where you end? IMHO on the price of small Chinese based grand. Now, what would market prefer more? Such "unlimited" DP or small real grand? Risky decision to go into such business...(unlimited in quotes as I still think such DP will sound like a recorded piano which is completely incomparable with real AP grand even small IMHO).
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/24/12 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: KarelG
When I've been in a search for a good DP I've also considered AG N1 but seeing this price I've decided to contact Petrof for their MIDI keyboard with real grand action price. They told me a price of N1 +25% up.


Whaaaaa? I contacted Petrof as well and they never got back to me. I figured the product was vaporware.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/24/12 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: KarelG
If you are not happy with current AG's sounds why you don't connect some preferred VST to it for a fraction of its price and be happy indefinitely? Why are you complaining?

Some of us need recording quality turnkey solutions and can't deal with all the PCs, software, wires, boot time, etc. One would think the "Digital Piano" industry would offer such a product, even if greatly overpriced. Hence the crabbing, particularly in light of superior VSTs for the past decade or so now.
Posted by: kippesc

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/24/12 04:33 PM

Here's a couple things I've noticed about the N2. First, unlike any other gadget in my house, including vacuums and kitchen appliances, the N2 causes a non-digital baby monitor to go berserk -- RF interference/poor shielding. Second, the AG seems, itself, sensitive to AC line noise -- emitting a hiss sometimes. I haven't sorted out the second gremlin yet; I may need to clean up the AC current with one of those audiophile gizmos that I had heretofore thought was hokum. As for the first, I upgraded to digital baby monitors. But still, the RF interference struck me as a throwback to electronics of earlier times -- consistent, mind you, with slow boot ups, slow saves of MIDI recordings, and a requirement that all small hands be kept OFF the keyboard during startup.

I should be clear about the RF interference issue: it's minor. After about ten minutes of being turned on, my N2 would cause an Angelcare baby monitor receiving unit to crackle. I've replaced that with a monitor made by Motorola. The AG otherwise does not interfere with anything else in the house that I've noticed. It struck me as odd that the AG had to be on for a while (regardless of it being played) for any interference to occur. About 10 minutes, as I recall.
Posted by: KarelG

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/25/12 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: KarelG
If you are not happy with current AG's sounds why you don't connect some preferred VST to it for a fraction of its price and be happy indefinitely? Why are you complaining?

Some of us need recording quality turnkey solutions and can't deal with all the PCs, software, wires, boot time, etc. One would think the "Digital Piano" industry would offer such a product, even if greatly overpriced. Hence the crabbing, particularly in light of superior VSTs for the past decade or so now.

Looks like Yamaha is not able to provide one for whatever reason. Kawai stays a little lower and not providing real grand action. Do you think there is a market for such turn a key solution? Just one additional box with two cables connected to Yamaha or even built inside while avoiding the Yamaha's original warranty? How many boxes of such functionality one would be able to sell for let say $2k? Don't know the DP market just know few complaining pianists here hence I'm asking...
Posted by: Carlos-CR

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/25/12 01:38 PM

Originally Posted By: KarelG
Honestly speaking I really do not understand all those complains about Yamaha being not good and using $5 CPU and $1 RAM for their flagship DP like AG is....


You don't understand why we complain?

Are you a shareholder of yamaha or are you a buyer?

If you are in the first group, I understand your post, but if you, as I am, are in the second group then I seriously can't understand what you don't understand. You are shooting yourself in the pocket, I mean in the foot with that kind of reasoning.

And in the end, I think that companies that try to milk customers to the last drop like Yamaha (and others) is doing are throwing their brand in the trashcan.

Just my opinion

Carlos
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/25/12 01:50 PM

Is Yamaha's brand "in the trashcan"? I don't think so.
Posted by: KarelG

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/25/12 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
Originally Posted By: KarelG
Honestly speaking I really do not understand all those complains about Yamaha being not good and using $5 CPU and $1 RAM for their flagship DP like AG is....


You don't understand why we complain?

Are you a shareholder of yamaha or are you a buyer?

If you are in the first group, I understand your post, but if you, as I am, are in the second group then I seriously can't understand what you don't understand. You are shooting yourself in the pocket, I mean in the foot with that kind of reasoning.

And in the end, I think that companies that try to milk customers to the last drop like Yamaha (and others) is doing are throwing their brand in the trashcan.

Just my opinion

Carlos


Carlos,

everything in this world does have its own price. Yamaha decided in certain hardware class and you as a buyer may either buy or ask for lower more acceptable price or turn to Yamaha's competition or give up DPs completely and go AP route. So you are perfectly free and nobody forces you into buying Yamaha. Yet, if you buy it you still do have a lot of options how to increase its sound quality with the fraction of its original price. So where is the issue? You mean that Yamaha will learn something from your complains on this forum like probably do smaller competitors? Yamaha is too big and too arrogant for doing something like that. So good, your complains are well saved inside the forum, everybody is able to google for them and made his/her own decision about AG series. If nobody buys this piano, then Yamaha will probably need to do something with the situation. And that's probably the only possibility of feedback we can provide to Yamaha. Certainly, I've decided to not buy AG at least not yet as my chosen combination is an old AP and hopefully complemented by ES7 or MP10 successor in the future for just those occasions I need to play silently or somewhere else than in my home...
No, I'm not Yamaha share holder. And I agree with you that Yamaha is milking their customers on AG line (but so is Roland right with their V-Piano line), but on the other hand doing the DP business is not charity and you need first to make your shareholders happy unfortunately.

Happy holidays time!
Karel
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/25/12 03:13 PM

Maybe I'm naive but I think there are a lot of dedicated, enthusiastic and talented people at work within Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Kawai and the others. It is part of human nature - even when there are shareholders to please - to want to improve and innovate. And whilst I agree there is some substance to many of the criticisms aired here I think they are made without real knowledge of the realities of the design and manufacture of these products. And yes, these companies have to be profitable. But I don't see how or where Yamaha (or Roland) are milking their customers to the last drop.

I'd be very interested (if we could read minds) to see if we could find a single person within Yamaha or any other manufacturer who doesn't want their customers to be happy and for them to feel that they have bought a good product. That is what I would want if I was in this business and that is what all of you would want. So why do we find it so easy to assume that the personnel within Yamaha are a breed apart and apparently share none of these values? Not only is that unfair it is downright illogical to my mind.

Anyway, you can all shoot me down now.... grin
Posted by: KarelG

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/25/12 03:48 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: KarelG
When I've been in a search for a good DP I've also considered AG N1 but seeing this price I've decided to contact Petrof for their MIDI keyboard with real grand action price. They told me a price of N1 +25% up.


Whaaaaa? I contacted Petrof as well and they never got back to me. I figured the product was vaporware.


No, it's certainly not vaporware, but it's probably made on request by a customer like their master series of concert grands. My advantage over you asking them was probably usage of Czech.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/27/12 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I don't think dewster wishes that anyone should dislike the AG. He's simply reiterating that, for the money, he expects more.

In the end, he seems to think that the AG is just yet another Clavinova clone, but this time with a real piano action. IMPO, such a piano ought not cost as much as a baby grand acoustic piano. But it does! That's the disappointment.


If you disregard its key action, the AG's sound and response is really no different to any other CLP costing a fraction of the AG's price. As purely a practice instrument, it works if you don't mind an action that's heavier than most real acoustic grands (and you also have a real piano to practise on to refine your touch and tone color and dynamics), but as a substitute for a real piano, it just doesn't cut the mustard.

IMO, the NU1 is far better value for money, with a nicer sound and slightly broader range of color (from the CFX), and its action is lighter and more like a real piano's (upright or grand), and frankly, more pleasant to play on for long periods. As for its upright action, as I've mentioned before when reviewing it and comparing it with the AG, it doesn't feel inferior. Grand piano action is supposed to allow more rapid repeated notes (assuming you have the chops for it), but the action in the AG is more sluggish and heavy (too much so, IMO) than that of the NU1 and really difficult to repeat notes fast.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/27/12 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
If you disregard its key action, the AG's sound and response is really no different to any other CLP costing a fraction of the AG's price.


Simply not true. Subjectively it is a world apart from Clavinovas and Dewster's testing shows that technically it is different, significantly out-performing all other Yamaha DPs. It is a long way from perfect (I enjoy my modest upright piano more) but to say it is the same as a Clavinova is just not true. In fact it's a lie pedalled by someone with the strongest bias on this forum, ie, someone who doesn't own one, has no desire or intention to own one, and indeed has no intrinsic interest in or ownership experience of DPs in general, but who feels the need to slag the instrument off on every thread possible. We all know why of course. Transparently pathetic.
Posted by: Carlos-CR

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 04:52 AM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Is Yamaha's brand "in the trashcan"? I don't think so.


Not yet?

I can only speak for myself, but their image has deteriorated to my eyes since I bought a CVP-305 some years ago. I've looked at the following CVP iterations and sincerely can say there have been much of an improvement if at all. On the contrary, the equivalent model cvp505 seems to lack string resonance. frown
Posted by: Carlos-CR

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 05:07 AM

Originally Posted By: KarelG
Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
Originally Posted By: KarelG
Honestly speaking I really do not understand all those complains about Yamaha being not good and using $5 CPU and $1 RAM for their flagship DP like AG is....


You don't understand why we complain?

Are you a shareholder of yamaha or are you a buyer?

If you are in the first group, I understand your post, but if you, as I am, are in the second group then I seriously can't understand what you don't understand. You are shooting yourself in the pocket, I mean in the foot with that kind of reasoning.

And in the end, I think that companies that try to milk customers to the last drop like Yamaha (and others) is doing are throwing their brand in the trashcan.

Just my opinion

Carlos


Carlos,

everything in this world does have its own price. Yamaha decided in certain hardware class and you as a buyer may either buy or ask for lower more acceptable price or turn to Yamaha's competition or give up DPs completely and go AP route. So you are perfectly free and nobody forces you into buying Yamaha. Yet, if you buy it you still do have a lot of options how to increase its sound quality with the fraction of its original price. So where is the issue? You mean that Yamaha will learn something from your complains on this forum like probably do smaller competitors? Yamaha is too big and too arrogant for doing something like that. So good, your complains are well saved inside the forum, everybody is able to google for them and made his/her own decision about AG series. If nobody buys this piano, then Yamaha will probably need to do something with the situation. And that's probably the only possibility of feedback we can provide to Yamaha. Certainly, I've decided to not buy AG at least not yet as my chosen combination is an old AP and hopefully complemented by ES7 or MP10 successor in the future for just those occasions I need to play silently or somewhere else than in my home...
No, I'm not Yamaha share holder. And I agree with you that Yamaha is milking their customers on AG line (but so is Roland right with their V-Piano line), but on the other hand doing the DP business is not charity and you need first to make your shareholders happy unfortunately.

Happy holidays time!
Karel


Marketing driven companies can be good for shareholders, but I can't think of any instance in which they are good for consumers. Yamaha is a heavy marketing driven company. When you evaluate objectively their products you can see they are nothing special and innovation is seriously lacking.

That doesn't mean they don't have enthusiastic people working for them. Surely they have. It's just that probably they don't have enough weight in the company.

Also it doesn't mean that they don't have good products. And avant grand is probably one of them, it's just that if they weren't so much marketing driven surely we would have now a better product in the streets.

So, I would advise all the consumers to not believe in brochures and always evaluate the products with a cold mind.

And never side with the companies because they already have much power in the buyer-seller relationship. It's called marketing and don't underestimate it because it's really a powerful tool.

If more of us did that, we would have better products instead of better marketing.

Just my opinion.. smile
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 05:26 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: bennevis
If you disregard its key action, the AG's sound and response is really no different to any other CLP costing a fraction of the AG's price.


Simply not true. Subjectively it is a world apart from Clavinovas and Dewster's testing shows that technically it is different, significantly out-performing all other Yamaha DPs. It is a long way from perfect (I enjoy my modest upright piano more) but to say it is the same as a Clavinova is just not true. In fact it's a lie pedalled by someone with the strongest bias on this forum, ie, someone who doesn't own one, has no desire or intention to own one, and indeed has no intrinsic interest in or ownership experience of DPs in general, but who feels the need to slag the instrument off on every thread possible. We all know why of course. Transparently pathetic.


EssBrace, I hope you don't mind me saying this (but I'm sure you do grin - you look out for every single post I write here and attack me at every opportunity), but I think you've got 'issues', as our American friends would say. (Think 'fixation', 'obsession', blah, blah, etc, etc...)

Where's your British sense of humour, and wit, and repartee, instead of all these intemperate lashing out whenever I post something here? wink
Posted by: Carlos-CR

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 06:26 AM

Originally Posted By: bennevis

...

If you disregard its key action, the AG's sound and response is really no different to any other CLP costing a fraction of the AG's price. As purely a practice instrument, it works if you don't mind an action that's heavier than most real acoustic grands (and you also have a real piano to practise on to refine your touch and tone color and dynamics), but as a substitute for a real piano, it just doesn't cut the mustard.

IMO, the NU1 is far better value for money, with a nicer sound and slightly broader range of color (from the CFX), and its action is lighter and more like a real piano's (upright or grand), and frankly, more pleasant to play on for long periods. As for its upright action, as I've mentioned before when reviewing it and comparing it with the AG, it doesn't feel inferior. Grand piano action is supposed to allow more rapid repeated notes (assuming you have the chops for it), but the action in the AG is more sluggish and heavy (too much so, IMO) than that of the NU1 and really difficult to repeat notes fast.


Mmmm. According to the DPBSD it seems superior to all reviewed clavinovas sound wise:

- Longer samples
- No visible or audible stretching.
- Velocity appears to be a smoothly blended multi-layer sample set.
- No audible velocity layer switching.
- Something like a velocity layer switch barely visible @ vel=78 (spectral pan view).

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1391594/Re:%20The%20DP%20BSD%20Project!.html#Post1391594
Posted by: ando

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 09:09 AM

Pretty sure the AGs got a 4 channel sample set to make spatial positioning within the case better. So certainly better than the Clavinovas.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 11:25 AM

It's not very meaningful to say it's better than other digital pianos. That is very faint praise.

More relevant I think: How does it compare with any of the good piano libraries?
Posted by: 36251

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
It's not very meaningful to say it's better than other digital pianos. That is very faint praise.

More relevant I think: How does it compare with any of the good piano libraries?
I agree that piano libraries are superior. I do love playing gigs with my Vintage D. But I do think it's only one piece of the puzzle. You still need the proper amplification and action to complete the effect.

IMO, Yamaha's plan was to combine all the parts to create their hybrid piano. Kind of like the great piano makers picking the proper wood, felt, etc. I do agree they held back on using full, non-stretched samples, not to mention that a Steinway sample would of been more desired, but I'm sure that was a business decision, so someone like myself will want the next incarnation of the AG.

I've been thinking of an analogy that might be of interest. I'm an avid car enthusiast and enjoy reading comparison reviews. Just because the BMW or the Audi wins doesn't make the 5th place winner, say the Lexus or Cadillac any less wonderful in real world driving. Maybe the AG would be 5th place in a comparison with the best VSTs but it's still pretty good and when used as designed with the proper four channel sound system, it might have some advantages.
Posted by: Kona_V-Piano

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 01:25 PM

EssBrace vs bennevis cage match piano playoff wink I'd pay to hear that. Happy New Year to all in this forum. I've been away far too long from the Internet in general and am just getting back into things now that I bought a new Ipad. Great little device. From reading this forum, I see sales of digital piano's have dropped and both Yamaha and Roland are draining money and probably restructuring their business models. I am hoping Roland and Yamaha have something new up their sleeves before this depression hurts them further. In my opinion, the music schools around the world are lacking in garnering the amount of musicians it once used to. An over abundance of kiddie style teenage bopper music and a hatred towards nothing old and classical is hurting the entire music equipment industry. At least the world didn't end on such a low note. Well, I wish everyone a Happy New Year and Happy Holidays. I will be singing wi Andrea Bocelli soon and hope to create some more music as well. I'll share it with all of you guys when I am able to. Now keep on supporting the instruments we all love and continue to make and play great music.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
EssBrace vs bennevis cage match piano playoff wink I'd pay to hear that. Happy New Year to all in this forum. I've been away far too long from the Internet in general and am just getting back into things now that I bought a new Ipad. Great little device. From reading this forum, I see sales of digital piano's have dropped and both Yamaha and Roland are draining money and probably restructuring their business models. I am hoping Roland and Yamaha have something new up their sleeves before this depression hurts them further. In my opinion, the music schools around the world are lacking in garnering the amount of musicians it once used to. An over abundance of kiddie style teenage bopper music and a hatred towards nothing old and classical is hurting the entire music equipment industry. At least the world didn't end on such a low note. Well, I wish everyone a Happy New Year and Happy Holidays. I will be singing wi Andrea Bocelli soon and hope to create some more music as well. I'll share it with all of you guys when I am able to. Now keep on supporting the instruments we all love and continue to make and play great music.

OT
There are some new entries on the iPad for piano software and synths etc. iPxxxx in fact, and the local College to me uses iPad exclusively to teach their studio, composition, music tech courses. No PC based VST thingies for them. I don't think the iPad offerings have caught up yet but they are quite usable and a lot cheaper.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Where's your British sense of humour, and wit, and repartee, instead of all these intemperate lashing out whenever I post something here? wink


But you only EVER post to praise the V-Piano and slag off the AvantGrand (as if for some reason your buying choices around your V-Piano are threatened by the AG's very existence - clearly YOU are the one with issues, not me). That's all you ever do. You don't like the fact that I'm waiting to point the truth out. Perhaps you'd like to explain to us all why you do it?

And let me remind you I readily and frequently point out the shortcomings of the AG (insufficient resonance, lack of sustain, looped decays) and the advantages/strengths of the V-Piano. My posts are informed by a very significant factor - I have owned both. Whilst I know I have been critical of the V-Piano's sound - and I absolutely stand by that criticism because it is not even close to what Roland promises - I ALWAYS state that it is the most dynamic and nuanced DP available. So there is more than a modicum of balance in what I write. Can you say the same?
Posted by: Kona_V-Piano

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
EssBrace vs bennevis cage match piano playoff wink I'd pay to hear that. Happy New Year to all in this forum. I've been away far too long from the Internet in general and am just getting back into things now that I bought a new Ipad. Great little device. From reading this forum, I see sales of digital piano's have dropped and both Yamaha and Roland are draining money and probably restructuring their business models. I am hoping Roland and Yamaha have something new up their sleeves before this depression hurts them further. In my opinion, the music schools around the world are lacking in garnering the amount of musicians it once used to. An over abundance of kiddie style teenage bopper music and a hatred towards nothing old and classical is hurting the entire music equipment industry. At least the world didn't end on such a low note. Well, I wish everyone a Happy New Year and Happy Holidays. I will be singing wi Andrea Bocelli soon and hope to create some more music as well. I'll share it with all of you guys when I am able to. Now keep on supporting the instruments we all love and continue to make and play great music.

OT
There are some new entries on the iPad for piano software and synths etc. iPxxxx in fact, and the local College to me uses iPad exclusively to teach their studio, composition, music tech courses. No PC based VST thingies for them. I don't think the iPad offerings have caught up yet but they are quite usable and a lot cheaper.


Thanks for the info about the ipad apps. That's what is great about this forum. Sometimes help or advice comes in just because some folks care about letting others know. Both EssBrace and bennevis offer the same kind of advice and help to others in this forum and both are what makes this forum great. I do happen to disagree with EssBrace's findings about the V-Piano more since I also own one and have played the AG line as well. Overall, sound is a very difficult thing to judge. I happen to like the V-Piano's sound as well as that of my Clavinova CLP990. There is room for both depending what you are looking for. The AG series can be improved with longer samples and more tuning options like the V-Piano offers. The one thing I do like about the V-Piano are bennevis's wonderfully created patches which add life to the sound above the already good sound. It is a shame that the technology has not taken off as of yet and made its way into a cheaper version. I am hopeful that by next year, the supernatural piano gets an update to feature even more of the v-piano technology than it already does. As for Yamaha, I also want to see a better digital than its current flagship as well. One can only dream and wait for the future.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 10:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
In my opinion, the music schools around the world are lacking in garnering the amount of musicians it once used to. An over abundance of kiddie style teenage bopper music and a hatred towards nothing old and classical is hurting the entire music equipment industry. At least the world didn't end on such a low note.


@Kona_V-Piano,

There appears to be some truth in what you say above in regards to popular music overtaking classical/jazz in particular, as today's youth really have no knowledge/understanding of any of these legendary musicians and music, from a nearly bygone age.

Some of the greatest music ever written came from the pens of composers no longer living:

Albeniz, Alkan, Bach, Barber, Bartok, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, Debussy, Faure, Gershwin, Granados, Grieg, Handel, Haydn, Joplin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Mozart, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Ravel, Satie, Scarlatti, Schubert, Schumann, Sousa, Tchaikovsky, Wagner... and, many others.

I don't think that any of the stuff being "written" today can even be considered "music" as such since it appeals only to foolish young people who party all night long and blast this trash at eardrum damaging levels, and, ultimately end up losing their minds to drugs and alcohol addiction.

If this is where today's culture is at then the future of serious music may be in jeopardy.

This is a real tragedy as I see it.
Posted by: Amaruk

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 10:58 PM

Originally Posted By: pv88


Some of the greatest music ever written came from the pens of composers no longer living:

Albeniz, Alkan, Bach, Barber, Bartok, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, Debussy, Faure, Gershwin, Granados, Grieg, Handel, Haydn, Joplin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Mozart, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Ravel, Satie, Scarlatti, Schubert, Schumann, Sousa, Tchaikovsky, Wagner... and, many others.

I don't think that any of the stuff being "written" today can even be considered "music" as such since it appeals only to foolish young people who party all night long and blast this trash at eardrum damaging levels, and, ultimately end up losing their minds to drugs and alcohol addiction.



I am not sure what to say about this. I love old and new music. One of my favorite "bands" at the moment is the UK based vocal ensemble Cardinall's Musick (link ) who perform music from the English renaissense period. Their music is very beautiful but also way different than more modern music such as Mozart, whom's music I like too. I think that if you were to play Mozart's music to an audience (in a church) let's say in 1512 they would probably think you were insane if you would call that music... I also happen to like "extreme" electronic music from today. I can't say which music is better. I also wish more people listened to old music but I understand that not all have the same taste.


Posted by: pv88

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 11:08 PM

Actually, I should clarify my comments above by saying that I am not against enjoying any kind or style of music however, it is the way in which irresponsible people handle their lives and music becomes just another addiction.

Music is not at fault here, it's just people that have no conscience.

"Kids having more kids" is one reason for this, in part.

No proper parenting as such for these "kids."

And, there are other factors involved.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/28/12 11:51 PM

Posted by: bennevis

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 05:22 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Where's your British sense of humour, and wit, and repartee, instead of all these intemperate lashing out whenever I post something here? wink


But you only EVER post to praise the V-Piano and slag off the AvantGrand (as if for some reason your buying choices around your V-Piano are threatened by the AG's very existence - clearly YOU are the one with issues, not me). That's all you ever do. You don't like the fact that I'm waiting to point the truth out. Perhaps you'd like to explain to us all why you do it?

And let me remind you I readily and frequently point out the shortcomings of the AG (insufficient resonance, lack of sustain, looped decays) and the advantages/strengths of the V-Piano. My posts are informed by a very significant factor - I have owned both. Whilst I know I have been critical of the V-Piano's sound - and I absolutely stand by that criticism because it is not even close to what Roland promises - I ALWAYS state that it is the most dynamic and nuanced DP available. So there is more than a modicum of balance in what I write. Can you say the same?


If your meaning of 'balance' is when I agree with you about your dislike of the V-Piano's sound, than what you say is true. You keep saying that your posts are 'balanced' but what you really mean is that anybody who disagrees with you has cloth ears, because you're always right, which by inference means that everyone who doesn't 'hear' what you hear is wrong. And of course, you're always there at the ready, stalking me, fingers poised over the keyboard, waiting to point out the error of my ways wink - just look at your own posts, including the one above - you're the 'truth' and 'the light', and, er.... grin. And you haven't got issues?

Some of my posts which you leap on (like a carnivore on heat wink ) make no references whatsoever to the V-Piano or the AG - it's just you reading things into them, then accusing me of all sorts of wondrous things. (Read again your intemperate attack on me when I posted something about my wonderful, wonderful holiday with the Mayans grin grin).

As I've said before frequently, I believe my own ears rather those of others, including any so-called 'experts' - including those from Roland (some of whom, including one or two demonstrating on Youtube, seem to me to have very limited experience of real pianos).

I've mentioned a VERY big criticism of the V-Piano many, many times, which I also happen to believe is the reason why it doesn't make big sales, which is that in its factory presets, it doesn't have the 'wow' factor in its sound - something that will induce a casual punter to keep playing, because it superficially plays and sounds like any other high-end DP costing a lot less. I've seen how most people try out DPs in stores, where there are often stacks of DPs piled high and squashed together in small spaces. They take one look at the price tag, sit down and play a few chords, and unless they can hear the difference immediately, lose interest unless the console has some diverting flashing lights to keep them occupied a bit longer. If the V-Piano has (even if only as its first preset) already been pre-tweaked to have increased sustain and resonances etc to acoustic grand levels, more people will be encouraged to explore further and realize where all the money has gone into, even if they haven't had much (if any) experience of real pianos and how they sound. The AG, of course, feels different immediately (especially if playing it immediately after a CLP), even if it doesn't sound different.

BTW, you'll have noticed that the vast majority of the criticisms of the AG in recent weeks aren't from yours truly (in fact, I only joined in the fray very late, after you, er, goaded me and I couldn't therefore resist grin)....or maybe you haven't, or thought that others were criticizing the AG under my malign influence (thought control, perhaps)? wink grin

P.S. Just discovered that you even managed to find me in the haystack in the Piano Forum (where I rarely post, and you'd never before engaged in...), just so that you could launch an attack on my opinion on someone. What was that about what I said about you stalking me and having 'issues'? wink

Posted by: Karnevil

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 05:49 AM

I think we can all (well, most of us smile ) agree on that both the V-Piano and the AvantGrand are flawed in several ways, yet they are the best alternatives available in the digital piano market. Personally I prefer AvantGrand, because I enjoy the most realistic tactile response possible from my DP.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 06:02 AM

This thread is no longer a discourse on pianos. It has become a clash of egos.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 06:03 AM

Ah, I see!

So to recap, you're saying your "VERY big criticism of the V-Piano" is just that it is much better than it at first seems. That's it!? Now your V-Piano criticism cupboard is bare? Yes, very balanced. I just love the way you've zeroed-in on that Achilles heel. Mmm, very insightful - (small pleading child's voice - "Mummy, I do criticise the V-Piano, honest. I always tell people how much better it is than they first think. And I stereotype the usual DP buyers as uninformed idiots that only like flashing lights. They're the ones who can't hear how much better the V-Piano is Mummy. It's not MY fault they're idiots. Like little brainless moths to a flame they only seem to buy Yamahas Mummy frown ).

And there you go again, pedalling the same LIE - that the AG just sounds like any other CLP. You know that is not the case - if indeed you've ever played the AG or a CLP. I'm amazed you can find the time what with all those lunchtime concerts with your "classical friends", the rabid gym work, the swimming with sharks, the mountaineering and exotic holidays. Not bad for a fantasist job-seeker from Wolverhampton! But of course you've dug yourself so deeply into your little trench that there is no way you can ever say anything positive about the AG now. Not without losing face. So all you can do is keep digging. Digging your lonely little trench. Praise of the V-Piano is one thing but consistently and constantly slagging off the AG doesn't make the V-Piano any better. Didn't anyone ever tell you that? Not even when your posts are strewn with smiley faces.

My "intemperate attack" on you and your wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful (pass the sick bag please) holiday with the Mayans was just humour. I mean, you did ask the other day for some of my "British sense of humour, wit and repartee" didn't you?
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 06:07 AM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
P.S. Just discovered that you even managed to find me in the haystack in the Piano Forum (where I rarely post, and you'd never before engaged in...), just so that you could launch an attack on my opinion on someone. What was that about what I said about you stalking me and having 'issues'? wink


I've "never before engaged in" the Piano Forum? I read the Piano Forum most days and have made lots of contributions. Get your facts straight.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 06:10 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace


.....the time what with all those lunchtime concerts with your "classical friends", the rabid gym work, the swimming with sharks, the mountaineering and exotic holidays. Not bad for a fantasist job-seeker from Wolverhampton!


Wow!!!
grin grin grin

P.S. Is Wolfhampton in Suffolk?
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 06:22 AM

I'd like to say that I find the last part of this thread interesting.






But I can't. Come on guys .... wink
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 06:23 AM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
This thread is no longer a discourse on pianos. It has become a clash of egos.


Mac, that's not very fair. All I'm saying is that I have consistently pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of both products.

Of course my ego is now telling me that if my ego is not welcome here then it could just find another avenue by which to secure world domination...
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 07:52 AM

Yes, you made those points. They need not be repeated and repeated.

But you have repeated (and so has bennevis). So I have to agree with Dave Horne, above.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Yes, you made those points. They need not be repeated and repeated.


But this is the thing. When he writes something like "the AG is just the same as any CLP" or whatever it can't be left at that. Because it is a lie. In other circumstances I'd let it go as a mistake but he knows exactly what he is doing by making false statements like that. His entire stance is riddled with extreme bias. He is trying to negatively influence the perception of casual, occasional visitors to the forum. That is wrong and damaging. Someone has to set the record straight about that kind of thing. There is a principle at stake.
Posted by: Dave Horne

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Yes, you made those points. They need not be repeated and repeated.

But you have repeated (and so has bennevis). So I have to agree with Dave Horne, above.


Has it come to this? Really? Are things so bad that people are now agreeing with me? smile
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 08:53 AM

You guys really need to go drink a beer together. I'm sure bennevis could somehow manage to do it on UK soil.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Gigantoad
You guys really need to go drink a beer together. I'm sure bennevis could somehow manage to do it on UK soil.


He doesn't drink (need I say more?)
Posted by: Gigantoad

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 09:31 AM

Then drink a soda laugh
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 10:04 AM

Ok, fine. Here are the facts:

The AG is based on the Schoenhut toy GRAND piano, not the Clavinova CLP line:


The V piano is based on the Schoenhut toy UPRIGHT piano, not the Roland super-naturals:


Both the AG and the V are truly terrible pianos. Avoid!

There, my two cents. smile
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 10:14 AM

Mac, does either piano allow 'playing off the jack'?
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 12:26 PM

No, but they both allow jacking off while playing. It's not necessarily recommended but I think it's possible.
Posted by: KarelG

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Karnevil
I think we can all (well, most of us smile ) agree on that both the V-Piano and the AvantGrand are flawed in several ways, yet they are the best alternatives available in the digital piano market. Personally I prefer AvantGrand, because I enjoy the most realistic tactile response possible from my DP.

Hmm, wouldn't an AG as a midi controller connected to V-Piano as a sound producer be a killer combination then? :-)
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/30/12 02:26 PM

Killer plus: Get dewster to transplant the guts of a V piano into an AG. Grand action with V sounds.
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 01:58 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
No


Really? I would expect that the V does indeed play off the jack (inasmuch as such a thing is meaningful when there is no jack). Iits cousins the RD700NX and FP7F do, last I heard.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Killer plus: Get dewster to transplant the guts of a V piano into an AG. Grand action with V sounds.


Or, how about transplanting a real Steinway "D" action into a V-Piano Grand?

Since the V-Grand already has "Steinway" sounds...
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Mac, does either piano allow 'playing off the jack'?


The V-Piano does.

I'd say more, but for the present (because I've got The Sound of Music to watch wink ), let's just say that I don't drink alcohol (rots the brain) or soda (rots the teeth). Tea and coffee suits me fine, and their caffeine helps my running (and all my other adventurous activities....).

As does the V-Piano. grin
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'd say more, but for the present (because I've got The Sound of Music to watch wink...


Christmas. The death valley of decent television...
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 10:49 AM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'd say more, but for the present (because I've got The Sound of Music to watch wink...


Christmas. The death valley of decent television...

Veering further OT, I sat through 'Calamity Jane' when visiting relatives over Xmas mad
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 11:28 AM

Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'd say more, but for the present (because I've got The Sound of Music to watch wink...


Christmas. The death valley of decent television...

Veering further OT, I sat through 'Calamity Jane' when visiting relatives over Xmas mad


Why can't we get decent old movies on TV over Christmas/New Year, like 'A Song to Remember', based (very loosely) on the life of Chopin? The scene when he coughs blood from his tuberculous lungs onto the the white keys of the piano during a concert is truly melodramatic... grin
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 01:13 PM

Why single out Christmas as the death valley of decent television?

More appropriate, I think: There is no such thing as decent television, save for the VERY rare oasis, always wished for, seldom delivered.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 07:32 PM

Mac, did you ever catch 'Treme'?
Posted by: toddy

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 12/31/12 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis

Why can't we get decent old movies on TV over Christmas/New Year, like 'A Song to Remember', based (very loosely) on the life of Chopin? The scene when he coughs blood from his tuberculous lungs onto the the white keys of the piano during a concert is truly melodramatic... grin


bennevis, you are a true caution.
Posted by: EssBrace

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 01/01/13 07:03 AM

Originally Posted By: toddy
bennevis, you are a true caution.


Now there's an old fashioned context in which to use the word "caution"! I last heard that in an ancient film which, whilst not featuring blood coughed liberally up over a piano, might have pleased bennevis as Christmas entertainment.

And due to the way he eschews most forms of technology I imagine said film would be watched on apparatus such as:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iWgbZgkEHyY/UB_hGZ1OqwI/AAAAAAAAH1s/utaRtq56gcM/s1600/Old-TV-Set.jpeg
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Avantgrand N1 - Glad I kept it! - 01/01/13 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: toddy
bennevis, you are a true caution.


Now there's an old fashioned context in which to use the word "caution"! I last heard that in an ancient film which, whilst not featuring blood coughed liberally up over a piano, might have pleased bennevis as Christmas entertainment.

And due to the way he eschews most forms of technology I imagine said film would be watched on apparatus such as:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iWgbZgkEHyY/UB_hGZ1OqwI/AAAAAAAAH1s/utaRtq56gcM/s1600/Old-TV-Set.jpeg



Hey!
I'll have you know that I watched The Sound of Music on a modern (circa 1960) black-and-white TV set that I inherited from my grandparents.

If it ain't broke, don't replace it, as the saying goes...... wink