Digitals vs hybrids vs Millenium III action in uprights

Hello,

I currently have a CVP-305 with GH3 keyboard and I'm not very satisfied with it so I'm contemplating a upgrade.

I'd like to have a very good action and sound and I like to play mainly classical music although I'm not very advanced (yet) and have little experience with acoustics (it's been many years since I played one and can't barely remember how it felt).

I've tried Rolands and I don't like the hard bottoming of their action so I've discarded them.

Last year I tried kawai CA-63 and liked it, so I guess CA-65 and 95 can only be better and are in my short list.

I have yet to try AvantGrands and acoustics but I plan to do it.

From reading this forum I know people considers N1 action very similar to a grand and that good technique can be acquired with it although there seems to be a difficulty with very fast repetitions in the sense that even if they are possible they are very difficult to do.

I've watched that N3 video with Katsaris and he really seems to struggle with fast repetitions and some notes don't sound:

(forward to 6:50 and specially 7:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q82t4bmCp_s

I also know that for this kind of money I can also buy a Kawai K3 or even a K5 (or other brands equivalents models) in my country (Spain).

But I've also read that uprights have compromises in their actions specially in fast repetitions and some teachers claim that for advanced level one should aim for a grand which I don't really have space to have.

And recently I've read in this forum that Kawai's millenium III action can realibly do 15 repetitions per second (Look at post #27808I by KawaiDon here ).

So my question is: Does the old adagio that uprights actions are a compromise and not good enough still holds true with millenium III uprights actions?

All opinions are welcome, but it will be wonderful if someone who plays classical at the advanced level (not necessarily stratospheric level, but people who can feel the limitations of a conventional upright action vs a grand's) and have played millenium III upright actions can share his/her opinions on the matter.

I've only listed millenium III actions because they mentioned the 15 reps per second data, but if there are more upright actions at this level I'm very interested in learning about them.

Thanks everybody

Carlos

Don't confuse the Kawai Millennium III grand action with the Millennium III upright action. KawaiDon's comments in the thread you linked to specifically relate to the Millennium III grand action. There is no way the upright version could be doing 15 reps per second. My technique is rubbish but even I can tell you that the fastest repeating DP action is Roland's PHA-III. There's no doubt in my mind about that. But you have ruled it out for an entirely valid reason - many people seem to agree that it bottoms out hard. But it is lightning fast.

I own a Millennium III equipped upright Kawai and on fast repetitions I find that the action blocks if the key does not return almost all the way. That is characteristic of all upright actions. If the fastest repetitions are extremely important to you then an upright (any upright) would be a real challenge.

I would say get the Kawai K3. It offers a real experience that digitals can't match. The action is fine for all but the most demanding classical repertoire. The DP industry likes to exaggerate the performance of its grand piano actions. They make it sound like a new upright action is terrible. This is not true! A K3 action will feel more real than any of the current DP actions, with the possible exception of the AG. But the K3 also offers much more connection to the sound than the AG - because it is directly making the sound, not triggering recordings.

DPs offer lots of benefits in terms of variety of sounds, quiet practice, portability, price - but if your goal is to play classical piano well, I would say go for the acoustic piano. You can have a DP as well for other reasons, but I think a K3 would serve you well for the purposes you describe.

Well I wanted to really focus on the OP's preoccupation with repetition speed but regardless of any of that stuff a half-way decent upright provides much more musical interaction and enjoyment. That has certainly been my experience despite the apparent limitations of upright actions.

Hello Steve,

I've reread the KawaiDon comment and effectively he is talking about grands actions. Thanks for pointing that out.

I seem to remember you also have an N1. How do you compare their action to your kawai regarding fast repetitions and "advanced" techniques in general?

When I tried the Rolands (hp-305) I agree they were very easy to play, but it was almost painful when the keys bottomed. At this point in my life (39 yo) I don't play to go pro with the piano so probably I won't play many pianos apart from mine and so adaptability to different models is only of minor importance, but I also was a little worried it was "unrealistically" easy.

Carlos

Carlos

I had the N3 until recently. Like most DPs there is a kind of deadness about it but to be honest I started to seek out a few uprights and there was one - a 15 year old Yamaha U3 - that just captivated me. I had owned a 5'3" Yamaha grand before but it had been a very disappointing experience and was too loud for my small room. So I was astounded to be completely beguiled by an upright piano (I had always dismissed them as unworthy things). Someone had tried that U3 half an hour before me and they came back and bought it and I was very disappointed. But it sowed a seed and I couldn't get the experience of that U3 out of my mind - and I could never feel the same way about the N3. The moment I tried that old U3 was the moment I absolutely knew the N3 would have to go because it could never make me feel what the U3 did.

So anyway I sold the N3 and bought a Kawai K3 upright from my favourite piano shop. The N3 has an action upon which the physical exercise of playing fast repetitions is far far easier and more effective than on the Kawai upright. But the N3's sensor system cannot "read" the physical movements of the action as well as, say, the Roland PHA-III. Fast reps sound very articulate and smooth on the Roland. Maybe it is too easy on the Roland in fact.

The N3 had a really meaty and mechanical feel and when playing it you are in no doubt that you are playing something on another level to a DP action. It was perhaps a little bit syrupy though - like there is some undesirable inertia within the action.

So in a physical sense I think a more advanced player would appreciate the AG's action. But whether the piano is very good at articulating the fastest techniques is another matter - because that is about the interplay of the physical capacity of the action to move quickly and repeat and of course the ability of the sensors to read the movements.

The Kawai upright's action just blocks if the key hasn't fully returned but you quickly gain an awareness of this and a good player can find ways to compensate to some degree.

My own needs are not in the area of advanced classical repertoire and so the theoretical advantages of the grand's action are not something I will ever be able to fully exploit. And in the meantime the sustain, resonance, musicality and simply the way my upright "moves the air" provides immeasurably more enjoyment and satisfaction than even the best digitals (including the AvantGrand).

Those really wanting to play the fastest repetitions are going to need to look at acoustic grands or perhaps the Rolands with PHA-III. I haven't tried the new three sensor Kawai wooden DP action and that might be very good. The three sensor Yamaha DP actions articulate fast repetitions very well in terms of the sensor behaviour but those actions (such as GH3) are a little behind the curve now in my opinion and their feel needs some improvement - for me anyway.

Cheers,

Steve

Digital piano, fast repetitions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_HS19VNrzU

Upright pianos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_j-9caZ358
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMbKFaLvF3s

Didn't you mean grand piano?

Ah, I see you've changed the video now to a digital!

And here's how it should be done!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh9WX7TKfkI

The acoustic will benefit a classical player in other ways - tone and touch. Yes, rapid repeats are very difficult on an upright, but the OP is worrying unnecessarily about this. It will be many years before the action of a K3 will hinder his progress. In fact most people who learn as adults never get to the point where they will be playing that Scarlatti piece at a tempo that the action can't keep up with. Up until that point, playing repeats on an upright actually encourages good technique because you have to play each note clearly rather than fudging them together which is what a novice tends to do on a fast action.

So, let's not overstate this repeat issue with regard to the OP. Most DPs struggle in exactly the same way as an upright with repeats anyway.

Thanks for your answer. I really have to try an acoustic upright and experience first hand its action and sound. I would like the AvantGrand to really be better than an upright, because it's more convenient and possible cheaper to maintain, but I'm starting to doubt it.

Carlos

Wow. I'm impressed with the first performance, on a CLP! I think he sometimes struggles with the fast repetitions but he does a very decent interpretation. Pity with the fingernails sounds. Anybody knows the specific model? I'd like to know if it has a GH3 or a NW keyboard.

On the second video, the repetitions are damped and sound staccato but it seems more a limitation of the instrument than the pianist.

In the third, the chosen tempo doesn't allow to judge the action, I'm afraid.

Thanks for sharing.

Carlos

I doubt, that Signore Scarlatti had the intention to play this piece that fast (..at least he had no suitable keyboard to proof)

Wonderful Mighty Martha!

I promise if I ever reach half her level I will buy a grand piano even if I have to throw the bed out of the window.

But I know it's not going to happen. :_(

Carlos

I doubt.. he had the ability to play that fast

In any case, the result is very musical, she has it under control and I personally think it suits well the piece. If you think about those fast repeated notes as one-note thrills, the tempo has a lot of sense.

Just my humble opinion..

Carlos

Yes, one of my favorite performances of that piece.

And, here is a short demo of some repeated notes:

[13 seconds of silence before the playing starts]

https://www.box.com/s/i64fikl09xstp6iihox0

Recorded at my Kawai CA95.

That's definitely my favourite performance of that piece, PV!

playing repeats on an upright actually encourages good technique because you have to play each note clearly rather than fudging them together which is what a novice tends to do on a fast action.

@ando,

Let me add that none of us here would probably ever have the natural playing ability of Martha Argerich, although most of our digital pianos are more than capable of handling whatever it is we wish to play.

The Kawai CA95 / V-Piano both have great actions, as either digital is sufficient for 98% of what can be played, or, attempted.

As for the other 2% ... leave that to Martha!

Hello Steve,

thanks for your very detailed response. Your opinion is very useful to me because you have first hand experience with the instruments I'm interested in.

I don't really know what to do now. I hope that when I have time to try myself those instruments I will clear my mind out.

What worries me about uprights actions is the possibility that it ends being a handicap for technique development. Not because it's not possible to play well when you already have the technique, but because it could be a too big step for acquiring it when you don't have it. So I don't want a particularly heavy action, just one that eases the way while being realistic enough.

But of course, the enjoyment of the instrument is also a big matter, because the greater it is, the bigger the chance to keep motivated and practicing.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Carlos

Slight understatement here, eh?

Except for our friend Dr Popper. I distinctly remember him saying he could play anything ;^)

Just by the way, does anyone know much about Seiler's "super magnetic" upright action? Does it perhaps provide something akin to double-escapement, or is it just very fast for normal full-stroke repeats?

Greg.

+1

A Kawai K3 (or something equivalent from other brand) is a very nice and enjoyable piano... digitals are also nice, specially because are portable and can be played at night with headphones, but if I had to choose one and only one... I would keep my upright without hesitation. Luckily I can enjoy both and get the best from both worlds

Regards,
Kurt.-

I wouldn't worry about that too much. There are many very accomplished pianists who practice almost exclusively on uprights. It's what most people have historically had in their homes. I think even the best digitals are not better from a technique developement perspective than a good upright. They may repeat better, but then they fail in other, possibly more important ways.

The reasons to get a digital instead of an acoustic are price, portability, headphone play, easy recording, and alternative voices. Not technique development.

+1. Seriously Carlos, you are not going to reach any limit in your development with a K3, unless you put in a great deal of practice and reach a very high standard indeed. Not to be negative, but as an adult beginner, it's unlikely you will reach that point - and if you did, you will have outgrown every digital on the planet too. You will benefit enormously from learning touch and tone with real strings and hammers. Classical music needs that sort of subtlety.

A humble upright in action. Yamaha, similar size to K3:

I wonder how much credit must go to his tuner/technician. I am amazed with the sound and speed he achieves on that little upright!

Thanks for all your comments and those interesting videos.

I suspect there are lots of advanced movements or techniques (for lack of a better word) that advanced pianists use that I don't even know exists. For example, recently I learned in this very forum about undampened trills and I was shocked because it was a sound I couldn't produce before and I thought it wasn't a technical issue but a problem with my piano samples. So I'm wondering what else I don't know that I should to properly judge the convenience of a piano.

I think I need to let all that info settle down, practice more and then go to a store and try my alternatives.

Carlos

It's a silent Yamaha and you are hearing the digital piano part I'm afraid. Shows what the action can do though.

EssBrace: very interesting - I did actually think that it sounded more like a grand - I was impressed! (and FOOLED - I didn't pick that it was a digital sound!)

Greg.

If anyone doesn't think that the Kawai CA95 isn't good for fast repetitions, I did a short demo here, to illustrate:

[Playing starts after 13 seconds of silence]

https://www.box.com/s/i64fikl09xstp6iihox0

The CA95 has a heavy action, although the player has to do the work.

Interesting. Were you using just one hand or both alternating fingers?

Carlos

@Carlos,

Two hands combined, with one finger from each hand.

Oh, I was under mistaken impression that you were doing one-handed repeats, like 123123 etc. Now I'm less clear about how easy fast repeats are on the CA95. I can do two-handed repeats at the same speed on my upright U3 - the only difference is, the dampers touch down in between and make it sound a bit staccato. It's when you have to do one handed shallow repeats that really tests an actions repeating capability, IMO.