can you negotiate when buying a digital piano?

Posted by: adak

can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 05:58 PM

i was under the impression that the price listed was the price you pay yet i read some posts saying they bought it for a significantly lower price, for example the roland v piano.

when is it ok is bargain and how would you do it?
Posted by: bennevis

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: adak
i was under the impression that the price listed was the price you pay yet i read some posts saying they bought it for a significantly lower price, for example the roland v piano.

when is it ok is bargain and how would you do it?


I bought my V-Piano at a discounted price......and the dealer threw in a pair of good AKG headphones and a music stand too. This was in the UK, boxed and brand new.
Posted by: mitzysman

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 07:37 PM

Yes
Posted by: ando

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 07:48 PM

Mad if you don't.
Posted by: Amaruk

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 07:50 PM

In the US when you buy a digital piano from a regular piano dealer you can indeed negotiate the price and it is more or less standard practice. Have a look in the PianoBuyer as it lists street prices of various models:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall12/262.html
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 07:51 PM

When is it ok is bargain?
ALWAYS. Every deal can be negotiated. Pianos and anything else.

How to do it?
Simple. Do your homework and then make an offer.
Forget about getting the seller to lower his asking price.
Instead, allow him to try to get you to raise your asking offer.
Posted by: adak

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 08:54 PM

can bargaining be done if buying from an online website?

forgot to mention, i am also in canada and prices are a bit higher than US prices.
Posted by: o0Ampy0o

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 09:07 PM

Online? Depends on the store. Amazon ...no you cannot even speak to a live salesperson for a sale price but they do have sale prices without negotiation. Musician's Friend ...yes if you call them instead of doing transaction online, BH Photo ...they will discuss this through e-mail.

Try local merchants also and see what they are willing to do to compete with online prices. You might end up paying more but they will probably take good care of you to make up the difference.
Posted by: hamlet cat

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/04/13 09:09 PM

As the holder of the cash, you most certainly should negotiate. Keep in mind that that vast majority of sales people are on commission. They want the sale, and in most cases will take a lower sale price instead of watching you walk out the door.

MacMacMac gave you the key. Apply the points he mentioned and be willing to walk out the door.

One more thing, never go when the store is busy. smile
Posted by: peterws

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 04:16 PM

When I bought a DP I went to a number of dealers. Tried out the pianos, and went back to find out what they`d do it for. The lowest priced was what I bought.

But it arrived on the slowww train .. . .
Posted by: zapper

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 04:39 PM

man, you should negotiate everything in life...
Posted by: adak

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 08:46 PM

how about in canada when the competitors are much fewer? I think there is only 1 kawai digital piano seller in the whole country.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 08:51 PM

adak, I believe there are a number of Kawai digital piano dealers in Canada.

If you require assistance find a dealer, my recommendation would be to contact Kawai America using the information at the page below:

http://kawaius.com/nav_links/contacts2010.html

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: chickenlump

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: adak
how about in canada when the competitors are much fewer? I think there is only 1 kawai digital piano seller in the whole country.


where in canada are you?
Posted by: adak

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 08:56 PM

toronto
Posted by: Vid

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 08:59 PM

There is one in the Vancouver area with two stores.
Posted by: chickenlump

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 09:42 PM

I purchased mine from merriam music in oakville. they have a store in vaughn as well i believe. http://www.merriammusic.com/
Posted by: hamlet cat

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/05/13 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: adak
how about in canada when the competitors are much fewer? I think there is only 1 kawai digital piano seller in the whole country.


It has nothing to do with the number of dealers in your area. It has to do with how many commissions the sales person wants to make this paycheck.
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 04:36 AM

Exactly ...
Originally Posted By: ron88
Originally Posted By: adak
how about in canada when the competitors are much fewer? I think there is only 1 kawai digital piano seller in the whole country.
It has nothing to do with the number of dealers in your area. It has to do with how many commissions the sales person wants to make this paycheck.
Sure, dealers may feel more pressure when there is a nearby competing dealer. But as a buyer, you need not depend on that kind of competition. Instead, look at it this way: The dealer isn't competing with another dealer. He's competing with you. YOU are the competition. YOU control your spending. That is your source of power in any negotiation.
Posted by: zapper

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 05:53 AM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Sure, dealers may feel more pressure when there is a nearby competing dealer. But as a buyer, you need not depend on that kind of competition. Instead, look at it this way: The dealer isn't competing with another dealer. He's competing with you. YOU are the competition. YOU control your spending. That is your source of power in any negotiation.


thumb
you negotiate with the sale person. It's just business,
nothing personal. No sentiments no pardon, an American way laugh
No wonder we have the best sales people in the world.
The best way is play reluctant buyer and negotiate in the same time with at least few dealers. You'll will be surprised with the effect.
Posted by: dkong99

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 06:26 AM

It's actually pretty much the way of the world. In some countries they are insulted if you don't attempt to bargain for the merchandise.

Just remember, the worse case scenario is that they say no and if they don't want to make a deal that day, just walk away.
Posted by: adak

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 12:48 PM

i just called about 5 piano stores in canada, so far everything is list price, damn i hate shopping in canada
Posted by: chickenlump

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 01:34 PM

Originally Posted By: adak
i just called about 5 piano stores in canada, so far everything is list price, damn i hate shopping in canada


I think most places will only tell you their MSRP over the phone, you should visit the store directly and deal with them.
Posted by: KataiYubi

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 01:34 PM

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Exactly ...
Originally Posted By: ron88
Originally Posted By: adak
how about in canada when the competitors are much fewer? I think there is only 1 kawai digital piano seller in the whole country.
It has nothing to do with the number of dealers in your area. It has to do with how many commissions the sales person wants to make this paycheck.
Sure, dealers may feel more pressure when there is a nearby competing dealer. But as a buyer, you need not depend on that kind of competition. Instead, look at it this way: The dealer isn't competing with another dealer. He's competing with you. YOU are the competition. YOU control your spending. That is your source of power in any negotiation.


Economics 101: prices are the product of supply and demand. High supply (many dealers in a country) -> lower prices. Low supply -> higher prices.

Plus the following argument: a dealer wants to earn a steady income. If he knows he will sell only infrequently (as in Canada), he will not let any of his few sales be unprofitable for himself and will less likely accept low offers. In a customer-rich environment, the dealer has a smooth income already, and may be more prone to make less on a few sales because of negotiation.

I compared the prices in Canada vs. the US and in the Great White North, we pay about double of what you pay in the US, even though the Canadian Loonie is at parity with the $US. If I show up in a Canadian store and make an offer at the average US price (doing my "homework"), the dealer will laugh at my face. Starting the negociation at 50% lower puts you into the category of Bozo the Clown, not that of a serious buyer.

Anyways - I'm not in the market for digitals anymore. Maybe in 10 years...
Posted by: Clayman

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 02:01 PM

An interesting thought but I can't really see myself bargaining for a lower price in any of the local musical instrument shops -- partly because I most likely wouldn't dare engage in such a thing but also -- and more importantly, I think -- because it's not a common thing to do around here. The larger vendors do compete on price between each other but in a way that they will offer you a better price only if you show them that you can get what you want for less elsewhere. However, I don't think I could just walk in and start asking for a better price on a whim.
Posted by: Charles Cohen

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 03:45 PM

My experience is that stores will sometimes refuse to lower the listed price -- but they will (if asked!) be willing to include 'freebies' related to the purchase:

. . . a stand;

. . . a gig bag;

. . . sheet music;

. . . a pedal (to replace the "stock" Casio PX-150 pedal).

Also, I suspect that a $5,000 price is more "negotiable" than a $500 price. The higher-priced item is harder to sell, and carries (probably) a higher profit margin for the store. So there's more "wiggle room" for the salesman.

. Charles
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 03:59 PM

Clayman: I wouldn't bother showing them that I can buy elsewhere for less. Doing so puts you right in the middle of the market competition. If there is little competition in the region, there's little chance of success with that strategy.

So instead, I would seek to create a different kind of competition: Let the dealer compete with ME. I'll only buy at the right price. I always have an alternative: not buying at all. That's what the dealer must compete with.

KataiYubi: Sure, if you start the negotiation at 50% below list you won't be taken seriously. I think 35% off of list (in the US) is rock-bottom. I would offer 30% off.

chickenlump: You're right: Dealers will only give list prices on the phone ... or might not offer any pricing information. But that's okay. You can't negotiate price on the phone anyway.

Negotiation should be face-to-face. Spend the time and visit the dealer ... and show that you're willing to buy.

If you're thinking that you'll save time by working a deal on the phone: don't. Trying to save time in a negotiation is a losing strategy. He who is short of time is likely to lose. He who has time to spare is likely to be successful.
Posted by: Dominik

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 04:05 PM

As I bought my NU1, the dealer bought my 1 year old DP at its new price. This is also a way to negotiate.
Posted by: hamlet cat

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: KataiYubi
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Exactly ...
Originally Posted By: ron88
Originally Posted By: adak
how about in canada when the competitors are much fewer? I think there is only 1 kawai digital piano seller in the whole country.
It has nothing to do with the number of dealers in your area. It has to do with how many commissions the sales person wants to make this paycheck.
Sure, dealers may feel more pressure when there is a nearby competing dealer. But as a buyer, you need not depend on that kind of competition. Instead, look at it this way: The dealer isn't competing with another dealer. He's competing with you. YOU are the competition. YOU control your spending. That is your source of power in any negotiation.


Economics 101: prices are the product of supply and demand. High supply (many dealers in a country) -> lower prices. Low supply -> higher prices.

Plus the following argument: a dealer wants to earn a steady income. If he knows he will sell only infrequently (as in Canada), he will not let any of his few sales be unprofitable for himself and will less likely accept low offers. In a customer-rich environment, the dealer has a smooth income already, and may be more prone to make less on a few sales because of negotiation.

I compared the prices in Canada vs. the US and in the Great White North, we pay about double of what you pay in the US, even though the Canadian Loonie is at parity with the $US. If I show up in a Canadian store and make an offer at the average US price (doing my "homework"), the dealer will laugh at my face. Starting the negociation at 50% lower puts you into the category of Bozo the Clown, not that of a serious buyer.

Anyways - I'm not in the market for digitals anymore. Maybe in 10 years...


Bottom line is, you are either a wise consumer and negotiate sales terms and price based on studied knowledge, or a pushover consumer that pays the asking price.

Nobody is suggesting acting like "Bozo the Clown", and offering 50%. That is an extreme, somewhat like "digital is garbage".
Posted by: Amaruk

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 05:24 PM

I understood it as offering 50% off list price in Canada, which would be about the average selling price in the US but I don't know.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 06:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
My experience is that stores will sometimes refuse to lower the listed price -- but they will (if asked!) be willing to include 'freebies' related to the purchase:

. . . a stand;

. . . a gig bag;

. . . sheet music;

. . . a pedal (to replace the "stock" Casio PX-150 pedal).

Also, I suspect that a $5,000 price is more "negotiable" than a $500 price. The higher-priced item is harder to sell, and carries (probably) a higher profit margin for the store. So there's more "wiggle room" for the salesman.

. Charles


If you don't ask, you don't get.

When I bought my DP, I first of all made sure that it really was what I wanted, then asked the dealer what he could offer if I bought it there and then. Once he realized that I meant business, he was only too keen to make me an offer I couldn't refuse wink . Without my prompting, he also threw in an excellent pair of headphones (though he'd already seen me using my own Bose ones, which he felt was more suited for travel listening than DP playing). Then I asked him how I was going to play from the music.....and he threw in a music stand too.

I couldn't think of anything else I could push him for, despite racking my brains grin.
Posted by: KataiYubi

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/06/13 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Amaruk
I understood it as offering 50% off list price in Canada, which would be about the average selling price in the US but I don't know.


You understood well - apparently some other people can't read.

Someone was reporting paying $2800 for a Kawai CA65 in Michigan, whereas in Canada the same instrument is sold for $5400, despite parity between the CAD and USD. There is simply no way for Joe Canuck to pay prices comparable to Americans, no matter how hard he bargains. And on top of this, we are hit by the Canada VAT (10%) and in my case the Quebec VAT (5%), so the difference is actually more.
Posted by: o0Ampy0o

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/07/13 12:00 AM

The idea that you are in control of the situation because you have money and someone else wants it is naive. That position just as easily makes you a potential sucker. A fool and his money are soon parted.

Negotiation takes skill, intelligence and awareness. People can do their research homework and prepare but they are not professional salespeople and are probably a lot more average than above average in several departments, not the least of which is the ability to read people.

The salesperson you get could be a seasoned pro or just someone handling the transaction like it is clerical who only follows a list of steps composed/dictated by their company. Either has the advantage of performing in their position routinely.

I think you need to be conscious of who you are and where you fit then you can decide what you can realistically gain. Taking an honest look at your situation, you would probably see some facets that can be polished within a short time period in preparation and some others that are out of your reach.

The trouble with a limited number of stores available to you is that this does not leave enough room to practice and hone your skills. It is a lot like interviewing for a job. Many times you sabotage the best opportunities while getting used to the process. You have the worst experience with the most desirable openings. By the time you are comfortable only the crumbs are left. There are usually more stores. You just have to go farther away from your location.

You should have sales-relevant knowledge of the product. You need to know what is realistic and what you are willing to do with your money, including how far away you are willing to buy before going in. Otherwise some charming salesperson is going to have you in the palm of their hand and you are liable to make an emotional decision......even if it is simply a nice person telling you "no" and you saying "OK."
Posted by: ONfrank

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/07/13 12:17 AM

Originally Posted By: KataiYubi
Originally Posted By: Amaruk
I understood it as offering 50% off list price in Canada, which would be about the average selling price in the US but I don't know.


You understood well - apparently some other people can't read.

Someone was reporting paying $2800 for a Kawai CA65 in Michigan, whereas in Canada the same instrument is sold for $5400, despite parity between the CAD and USD. There is simply no way for Joe Canuck to pay prices comparable to Americans, no matter how hard he bargains. And on top of this, we are hit by the Canada VAT (10%) and in my case the Quebec VAT (5%), so the difference is actually more.


I don't see anyone comparing pre-tax to post-tax prices anywhere. That's just you. As far as Kawai is concerned, in Canada, 40% off MSRP might be possible. The MSRP in Canada is ridiculously high.

By the way, how are your other threads going?
Posted by: zapper

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/07/13 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By: ONfrank
The MSRP in Canada is ridiculously high.


MSRP usually is way higher then real value. It's just starting point in negotiation.
Posted by: ONfrank

Re: can you negotiate when buying a digital piano? - 02/07/13 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By: zapper
Originally Posted By: ONfrank
The MSRP in Canada is ridiculously high.


MSRP usually is way higher then real value. It's just starting point in negotiation.


True but I'm talking relative to American MSRP. As an example, the MSRP for the MP6/MP10 in Canada is somewhere around $3000/$4000. That should give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Of note; all digital pianos imported into Canada are subject to a 6% tariff.