New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise

Posted by: pschmatz

New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/22/13 09:02 PM

Hi,
I’ve purchased a new Kawai CA-65 beginning of Jan this. Unfortunately, part of the keyboard was right out of the box out of alignment (several keys are raised). Kawai sent a technician (3rd party local repair service), and the technician concluded that the whole rail is improperly assembled or bent. Kawai now wants to replace the whole keyboard (once they have the part in stock which they currently don’t have)

Now my question: What can I expect to be replaced? Just the rail and the wooden keys? My understanding the factory adjusts each key separately, and I wonder if a 3rd party technician is equipped to do this properly?

I don’t know if I will receive a new or refurbished keyboard (see Kawai’s warranty fine print), however can I insist on a new keyboard replacement? (Since it was a problem with the new unit).
Anyone has any experience with Kawai on this?

Peter
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/23/13 02:31 AM

Hello Peter,

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Kawai now wants to replace the whole keyboard (once they have the part in stock which they currently don’t have)


That sounds like a good solution.

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Now my question: What can I expect to be replaced? Just the rail and the wooden keys?


I would recommend calling Kawai America and asking their staff to clarify the situation. This information should be more reliable than any conjecture offered by other PianoWorld forum users.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/23/13 10:53 AM

I wouldn't insist on the replacement rail being new (which it probably will be anyway). If the replacement fixes the problem and keeps the warranty intact then it's a full solution. No need to make yourself unnecessarily burdensome for the good folks at Kawai by insisting on things that don't make a difference.
Posted by: dmd

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/23/13 11:19 AM

Along that same vein ...

I would suggest you just let everything play out and see what the result is. No need to look for trouble before there is any.

For the moment, it appears the Kawai people recognize it as something they are responsible for and they are going to remedy it. Sounds good to me.
Posted by: pschmatz

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/23/13 12:24 PM

Sounds good - thanks everyone

Peter
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 02:57 AM

You have bought a lemon and/or a product damaged in transit.

Unfortunately, based on a myriad of other threads, there is evidence to suggest that the Kawai keyboard manufacturing design and transportation packing design is inadequate resulting in many consumer issues.

This is their problem, not yours. It is unacceptable that they are trying to make it your problem.

You should demand to have the entire CA-65 replaced with a new one.

Period.
Posted by: JFP

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 03:33 AM

If replacing the keybed results in exactly the same thing ; a new and fully functional DP, then why ? Disassembling , repacking the cabinet, pick-up, waiting for new on and unpacking, re-assembling a new one...is that really better ? Especially when all the rest (speakers, pedals, amps, cabinet) is perfect.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 05:23 AM

Mighty big "IF" in your first sentence up there...

My experience with the third party service providers that Kawai is forced to rely upon is not great. If I were to buy a Kawai product paying new prices, I would like to have a brand new, quality controlled, factory-built instrument, not some DOA lemon turned into an in-field project of a part-time contract employee performing work he has likely never done before following some checklist using potentially used, re-furbished parts. When the cabinet is damaged, will Kawai have to then send out a new cabinet to build around the keyboard?
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 05:31 AM

Interesting discussion.

However, let's allow Kawai America to resolve the situation, rather than speculating on unlikely worst case scenarios.

James
x
Posted by: pv88

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 05:50 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
My experience with the third party service providers that Kawai is forced to rely upon is not great. If I were to buy a Kawai product paying new prices, I would like to have a brand new, quality controlled, factory-built instrument, not some DOA lemon turned into an in-field project of a part-time contract employee performing work he has likely never done before following some checklist using potentially used, re-furbished parts.


Recommendation to Peter, above:

I would have the piano replaced, not repaired.

Here was my experience with a standard regulation of the CA95:

I had a third party technician (from the local store I bought my CA95 at) do a minor regulation, as the tech did not do everything I had requested. This included properly spacing a few keys and adjusting several others that made a little extra noise. All of this should be minor adjustments that any tech should be able to do, right?

The tech brought only one tool (that Kawai had sent, from California) to open up the diameters of each pivot point slightly so that there would be no sticking keys. He did all 88 keys with this one tool and put the piano back together again, as he needed my (the customer's) help with the assembly.

After dropping and almost losing several small screws in the piano it was reassembled, however, one part (the wooden name plate) was screwed in by error as the sliding key cover parts had to be attached, first. So, after making extra work for himself everything was finally back in place.

One small problem. The sliding key cover now rattles considerably when opening/closing as it never made a sound prior to the regulation. And, he didn't want to take the piano apart again to attempt to readjust it.

Looks like the only thing he got right was the "regulation" of the 88 keys with the small hand tool, as a small child could have easily accomplished the same task.

Was I happy with the third party tech's work? No.

Was he even a certified Kawai technician?

Have reported the tech, to Kawai.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 06:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Interesting discussion.

However, let's allow Kawai America to resolve the situation, rather than speculating on unlikely worst case scenarios.

James
x


James,

Congratulations with your new role as moderator!
Will we see your name on the forum list marquee any time soon?

Or may we be of service to the OP and give our experiences and our personal recommendations, aligned with the spirit and role of this forum....even if reality is from time to time not flattering for your employer nor its products and distribution?

If you think that this discussion is relevant for Kawai America, why not invite them to join in? Perhaps we would see a lot fewer of these defect Kawai keyboard threads popping up if people could search on an official thread from Kawai America and/or Kawai Europe that addresses the problem and provides consumer-friendly solutions. Food for thought.

xx
tJ
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 07:11 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
James,

Congratulations with your new role as a pragmatist!


Thank you, I try my best! wink

Originally Posted By: theJourney
If you think that this discussion is relevant for Kawai America, why not invite them to join in?


Because Kawai America is already corresponding with the customer directly.

Don't get me wrong - online forum discussions with consumers can be very beneficial. However, in cases such as this, where an instrument appears to have been damaged during shipping, it's best for the individual to contact the distributor to seek technical support.

Kind regards,
James
xx
Posted by: dmd

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Hi,
I’ve purchased a new Kawai CA-65 beginning of Jan this. Unfortunately, part of the keyboard was right out of the box out of alignment (several keys are raised). Kawai sent a technician (3rd party local repair service), and the technician concluded that the whole rail is improperly assembled or bent. Kawai now wants to replace the whole keyboard (once they have the part in stock which they currently don’t have)

Now my question: What can I expect to be replaced? Just the rail and the wooden keys? My understanding the factory adjusts each key separately, and I wonder if a 3rd party technician is equipped to do this properly?

I don’t know if I will receive a new or refurbished keyboard (see Kawai’s warranty fine print), however can I insist on a new keyboard replacement? (Since it was a problem with the new unit).
Anyone has any experience with Kawai on this?

Peter


I would contact Kawai support and discuss this with them to see exactly what your options are.

Ask them if you have the option of returning it and having them send you a new one.

Ask them if you have the option of returning it and getting your money back.

Ask them if you have the option of having the keybed and rail replaced and then return it if you are not happy with it.

Go right at it with them to see what your range of options are.

I am pretty sure you have all of those options.

But, anyway, once you know what your options are, you will feel better.

Then, do what YOU want to do.
Posted by: JFP

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Hi,
...and the technician concluded that the whole rail is improperly assembled or bent. Kawai now wants to replace the whole keyboard ...


The fault was identified; a solution was proposed and initiated. Why not let them replace the keybed with a new one and see what happens ? If the problem is still not solved in a satisfactory way , or if it takes to long - then ask for a complete unit replacement. A said, disassembling, repacking all the stuff , waiting for pickup , waiting for (new) return , unpack and reassemble is also no fun and who knows you end up with a unit that has another defect. You never know. As long as the keybed is the only thing and it will be replaced and Kawai is on the job organizing all this already, why making it more difficult than it is ? I don't see the point.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: theJourney
James,

Congratulations with your new role as a pragmatist!


Thank you, I try my best! wink


Perhaps however, as a suggestion from one member to another, it would be better for us all, and especially for Kawai, if you continued your fantastic contributions without the conflict-of-interest tainted unofficial moderation?

BTW, using the quote function and then changing the content of what you have quoted is generally accepted to be a unambiguous form of deception or dishonesty. I would expect better from you. The grand old brand Kawai should also not be associated with such behavior. If you are going to quote someone, have the good character to quote them honestly.
Originally Posted By: Kawai James

Originally Posted By: theJourney
If you think that this discussion is relevant for Kawai America, why not invite them to join in?


Because Kawai America is already corresponding with the customer directly.

Don't get me wrong - online forum discussions with consumers can be very beneficial. However, in cases such as this, where an instrument appears to have been damaged during shipping, it's best for the individual to contact the distributor to seek technical support.

Kind regards,
James
xx

That the customer is talking to Kawai America is great. However the forum member is also talking to us. Why should they be forced into isolation and deprived of information and the freedom to discuss their situation with others just because some Kawai Japan employee doesn't like it?

I agree that is best to contact the selling party and seek help. However, it is not best to contact the selling party without having as much relevant information as possible nor to be ignorant of one's legal rights and the risk of waiving those rights by allowing a seller to attempt to remedy a defect in a way which represents more risk or disadvantage to the consumer.

I think it is unbecoming to try to stifle discussion or to encourage people to seek remedies (& risk being snowed over) ignorant of relevant facts or without informing themselves properly.

In this specific case it is important information to know for the OP that

1) Kawai keyboards are quite often delivered in a defect condition;

2) The quality of in-field Kawai service can be very unsatisfactory;

3) The customer may wind up with a kludged lemon instead of the new product they paid for;

4) The consumer has the right to demand their money back or demand for the unit to be replaced with a non-defective, factory quality controlled, brand new unit as paid for.

I would think that Kawai would want to demonstrate publicly that they stand behind their products (and fix their problems to the complete satisfaction of their customers) rather than trying to sweep them under the carpet or stifle discussions on public bulletin boards. I also believe that it would be in Kawai's interest to join these discussions rather than to have the only Kawai input being trying to prevent them.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 08:39 AM

Thank you for your thoughtful post theJourney - it's good to have you back.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 08:42 AM

Thanks!

I like you James but I love Kawai!
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 08:48 AM

That makes two of us. wink

James
x
Posted by: dmd

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 09:05 AM

The Sky is Falling ... The Sky is Falling...
Posted by: pschmatz

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 02:42 PM

Thanks for the discussion. IMO, the main issue I had is with the limited communication from Kawai US support. It appears the individual is swamped, and does not have sufficient time to handle the load (e-mails bounced with mailbox full once). I left VMs as well, and it usually takes a weeks to get an answer.

BTW: Here's the video I sent to Kawai to demonstrate the problem
https://picasaweb.google.com/pschmatz/Ka...feat=directlink

Peter
Posted by: xorbe

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/25/13 03:07 PM

Demand full repair by date x/xx -- otherwise full replacement becomes effective beyond that date. Customer paid for new product. Customer should have new product, or money back, in a timely manner.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/26/13 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Thanks for the discussion. IMO, the main issue I had is with the limited communication from Kawai US support. It appears the individual is swamped, and does not have sufficient time to handle the load (e-mails bounced with mailbox full once). I left VMs as well, and it usually takes a weeks to get an answer.


This in itself is outrageous and completely unacceptable.

The fact that your personal interpretation of the fine print in your first post indicates that Kawai can sell you for a new price a repaired piano with refurbished parts while making you wait for an indeterminate length of time is also worrying.

However, you did not buy the piano from Kawai support but presumably from a retailer. If I were in such a situation, I would put pressure on the retailer and demand a 100% refund or a new replacement to be delivered this week. If they refuse to work with you and you paid by credit card you can ask for the charge to be reversed. They sold you product that was defective on delivery. They are in breach of contract. It has been two months already and you don't have any communication how many more months it will be before they receive parts from Japan and make their next attempt to repair. This is their problem, not yours. They need to solve it or they need to give you your money back.
Posted by: JFP

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/26/13 05:40 AM

I missed the part where you stated you made your purchase in the beginning of January - assuming it was delivered in early January too. If that is the case, it's taking too long and unless they can give you a (short!) timeframe when the problem will be fixed, I'd push for a complete replacement too. I thought you only got the CA65 very recently, that's why I didn't understand the hurry...

It would be good to know when events have taken place to put things in proper perspective, like
- when was the piano delivered ,
- when was the problem reported to the dealer,
- when did they respond and when did the technician come over and proposed the fix ?

If the dealer get's bashed for slow response , while the problem was only very recently reported and examined , that's another situation then when the issue is playing (with the dealer's knowledge) since the beginning of January .
Posted by: mabraman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/26/13 07:48 AM

I don't know about US laws and what I say must sound obvious but, as someone has already mentioned, the usual way to proceed is:
1.-Aim to the dealer/seller. There's is a proper amount of time to do it (here in Spain some sellers say e.g 6 days, but it's usually 15 to do returns).
2.-From this date on, you have to use the warranty.
It's that simple. With regards to any deffect in the item you purchased, the customer's rule should be 'give me a brand new one or my money back to me'. If this were not to work, then some official lodge/complaint made through the consumers' office will make them do it in their pants.
Posted by: JFP

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/26/13 07:54 AM

Quote: "...then some official lodge/complaint made through the consumers' office will make them do it in their pants"

I wish it we're true , but I doubt that.
Posted by: dmd

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/26/13 08:01 AM

Two Months ?????

Wow !

That is WAY too long.

Now I am on the side of immediate action.

Go to the dealer and tell them you want your money back.
Posted by: Marco M

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 02/26/13 10:49 AM

Originally Posted By: JFP
Quote: "...then some official lodge/complaint made through the consumers' office will make them do it in their pants"

I wish it we're true , but I doubt that.


Spain is different.
Most of us will know of the consumers´s office to only be a consumer´s organization, where mainly consumers help consumers, and lawyers (if needed) are available to the members paid from the membership fees. But here in Spain it seems to be a kind of offical tool to get some state agents involved in a not functional business affair. As this things can have severe consequence to the business company in question, it is indeed a powerful tool - here in Spain.
Posted by: MACKEL

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/27/13 07:11 PM

I have been reading many of this group's posts in the last couple of months deciding between A Yamaha CLP470, a Roland HP 505 and a Kawai CA65. I finally decided on the Kawai for sound and touch. The piano has been delivered tonight and after half an hour of playing I noticed a very badly finished key - it is rough and really badly finished on one side and I can feel it very noticeably while playing. Some other keys are not smooth either but less noticeably but I could actually pull off fragments this one key (lower C) if I set my mind to it... which I won't. So unfortunately I will have to call the dealer tomorrow! Delight gives way to disappointment! Anyhow I was wondering how the problem posted here by Pschmatz was resolved and how. I am also not clear about the warranty - the shop said Kawai guaranteed 2 years and the dealer extends it to 3 years - this is far from the ten year warantly I see mentioned in some posts. Any advice how best to go about this would be appreciated: replace the piano in total, replace the keyboard, replace the key???? Thanks.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/27/13 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: MACKEL
Any advice how best to go about this would be appreciated: replace the piano in total, replace the keyboard, replace the key??


I would recommend reporting the problem to the dealer from where the instrument was purchased, and allowing them to resolve the issue.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: mabraman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/28/13 04:41 AM

If you are still into dealer's warranty time, no doubt: ask for a brand new one, or a refund.
Dealers can solve some issues...or not. You don't know what is going to happen with returned units (are they on the dealer, so he must eat them up?), may the dealer return them to Kawai with no cost and get them replaced with perfect units? How does their assurance work? Do they even pay any assurance? So often, consumers end up paying for things that should be on the dealers. Are you going to waste your time waiting for this kind of things to clarify?

Perfect and instant money=perfect and quickly delivered item.
Don't you have mercy on them.
Posted by: MACKEL

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/28/13 06:18 PM

Thanks for replies Kawai James & Mabraman - waiting to hear back from the dealer. Never heard of a problem with Kawai in France - seemed a little skeptical and afraid my appraisal of problem might be just visual- which it is not - felt key problem in 15/20 min playing confirmed by visual of rough unfinished black C# .
I've tried to find the follow up to pschmatz's original post re Kawai problem. Oddly after all that discussion, I can find nothing. I was interested in knowing how it turned out.....
Posted by: pschmatz

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/30/13 10:20 PM

Update: The keyboard has been replaced with a new one, however some other keys then where not quite aligned as well (not spongy feeling though and not as bad as the original one). A new problem though was that a fair number of keys now had a mechanical "pop" (hard to describe, just a bit louder than others). The repair technician noticed that, but wanted to call back with Kawai before doing anything else. At that time to leave (for work), and we just left it.

Now, a week later, I decided to go the DIY route (since I watched how to take out the keys and hammers). Approx 3h later, I now got all keys level (yeah). There are brown and white paper washers (different thickness) under the keys, about 5 keys were too high, and about 4 too low. The "pop" seem to be caused by too much clearance between the wooden part of the key, and the plastic hammer (w/metal pin). The pin can be adjusted (I think I adjusted ~20 keys total) - there is a tool for it, which I don't have so I had to remove the hammers and put them back in. There is also silicon grease on the stop of the plastic hammer (which I didn't have to apply)

I know, that I probably would have been able to get the technician back, however I simply was not able to take another 1/2 day off. Plus, I was able to get it exactly right.

Overall, the problem is probably with transporting these units. The new keyboard had clearly been adjusted at the factory (you can tell by the different amount of washers, and how the pins have different clearance, but the bumps along the was the problem

Mackel: Start with the dealer, and Kawai service to look at the keyboard. Sounds like your problem is not due to settling, or transport of the keyboard.

Cheers
Posted by: xorbe

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/31/13 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Plus, I was able to get it exactly right.

Virtual high-five for a successful DIY adjustment!
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/31/13 03:58 AM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Update: The keyboard has been replaced with a new one, however some other keys then where not quite aligned as well (not spongy feeling though and not as bad as the original one). A new problem though was that a fair number of keys now had a mechanical "pop" (hard to describe, just a bit louder than others). The repair technician noticed that, but wanted to call back with Kawai before doing anything else. At that time to leave (for work), and we just left it.

Now, a week later, I decided to go the DIY route (since I watched how to take out the keys and hammers). Approx 3h later, I now got all keys level (yeah). There are brown and white paper washers (different thickness) under the keys, about 5 keys were too high, and about 4 too low. The "pop" seem to be caused by too much clearance between the wooden part of the key, and the plastic hammer (w/metal pin). The pin can be adjusted (I think I adjusted ~20 keys total) - there is a tool for it, which I don't have so I had to remove the hammers and put them back in. There is also silicon grease on the stop of the plastic hammer (which I didn't have to apply)

I know, that I probably would have been able to get the technician back, however I simply was not able to take another 1/2 day off. Plus, I was able to get it exactly right.

Overall, the problem is probably with transporting these units. The new keyboard had clearly been adjusted at the factory (you can tell by the different amount of washers, and how the pins have different clearance, but the bumps along the was the problem

Mackel: Start with the dealer, and Kawai service to look at the keyboard. Sounds like your problem is not due to settling, or transport of the keyboard.

Cheers


Wow!

Some keyboards require more and different skills than others!
Posted by: Temperament

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/31/13 07:18 AM


I like Your contribution: this is like an old fashioned wooden instrument keybed: sometimes requiring regulation - but allowing it as well!

I just can't wait for the Musikmesse (decided to pull the trigger after then).
Posted by: Clayman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/31/13 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Update: The keyboard has been replaced with a new one, however some other keys then where not quite aligned as well (not spongy feeling though and not as bad as the original one). A new problem though was that a fair number of keys now had a mechanical "pop" (hard to describe, just a bit louder than others). The repair technician noticed that, but wanted to call back with Kawai before doing anything else. At that time to leave (for work), and we just left it.

Now, a week later, I decided to go the DIY route (since I watched how to take out the keys and hammers). Approx 3h later, I now got all keys level (yeah). There are brown and white paper washers (different thickness) under the keys, about 5 keys were too high, and about 4 too low. The "pop" seem to be caused by too much clearance between the wooden part of the key, and the plastic hammer (w/metal pin). The pin can be adjusted (I think I adjusted ~20 keys total) - there is a tool for it, which I don't have so I had to remove the hammers and put them back in. There is also silicon grease on the stop of the plastic hammer (which I didn't have to apply)

I know, that I probably would have been able to get the technician back, however I simply was not able to take another 1/2 day off. Plus, I was able to get it exactly right.

Overall, the problem is probably with transporting these units. The new keyboard had clearly been adjusted at the factory (you can tell by the different amount of washers, and how the pins have different clearance, but the bumps along the was the problem

Mackel: Start with the dealer, and Kawai service to look at the keyboard. Sounds like your problem is not due to settling, or transport of the keyboard.

Cheers


It's good to see things worked out all right for you but it still makes me wish pianos had a way to lock the keys in place for transport or something.

It's also worth mentioning that there's not nearly as many reports of similar problems from Yamaha users. Could it be that the way the GF action is built allows these problems to happen more frequently?
Posted by: Temperament

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 03/31/13 10:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Clayman
It's also worth mentioning that there's not nearly as many reports of similar problems from Yamaha users. Could it be that the way the GF action is built allows these problems to happen more frequently?
Yamahas actions seem to be manufactured using probably to a higher degree automated production lines. (Even wooden Yamaha actions have in reality plastic keys with wooden side sticker, on the white keys only), so they can probably be not that prone to regulation issues. Talking of "normal" DPs, from the much more expensive AG serie I think a higher level QC is also to be expected to eliminate such issues.)
Posted by: R_B

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/02/13 08:14 AM

From my work experience in other fields I find it quite disturbing that these instruments are so sensitive to transport "damage" or "changes".
There does not appear to be a sufficient resolve to design, build and package them for the hazards of international (or even "local") shipping.

Without getting to the specifics, is it practical to use some sort of a restraining "bar" to hold all keys in place ?
I can't design it here & now, but I am thinking a simple padded bar that holds all keys down and is secured with some simple clamping mechanism or strap would do it.
Elegant in its simplicity - and CHEAP enough to discard, or re-use for gigs or home relocation.

{Gee, even clothes washers and dryers have this sort of thing at a MUCH lower price point (-:}
Posted by: pschmatz

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/02/13 01:55 PM

R B: From what I've seen from the Kawai keyboard is that even a super thin paper washer can visibly affect the height of the key (due to the location of the pivot). Just small bounce during transportation can move them out of alignment. Then, on the other end of the key, there is a small rubber pad (between the wood and the metal pin of the hammer): This pad will compress over time by usage, adding more clearance and giving the key a different mechanical sound.

Transportation restraint: This would certainly be a good idea. However it would have to be inside, and hold down the keys and hammers. Probably would prevent it from being able to allow "customer assembly".

Cheers
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/02/13 02:43 PM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
R B: From what I've seen from the Kawai keyboard is that even a super thin paper washer can visibly affect the height of the key (due to the location of the pivot). Just small bounce during transportation can move them out of alignment. Then, on the other end of the key, there is a small rubber pad (between the wood and the metal pin of the hammer): This pad will compress over time by usage, adding more clearance and giving the key a different mechanical sound.

Transportation restraint: This would certainly be a good idea. However it would have to be inside, and hold down the keys and hammers. Probably would prevent it from being able to allow "customer assembly".

Cheers


This confirms my earlier impressions and raises serious questions about how long these "arts & crafts projects with wood & washers in what could have been a reliable, precision consumer electronics device" can be used until they must be repaired or regulated...or replaced -- especially if they are used intensively and/or moved frequently.
Posted by: R_B

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/02/13 04:04 PM

Wood and paper washer construction MAY have been part of a design goal to....
I don't know what, include an organic feel reminiscent of APs from bygone days ?
Something like that.
It may be totally valid, I really don't know.

What I think is INvalid is the apparent lack of attention to the shipping environment, they appear to have just not DESIGNED (and/or manufactured) it to be "shipping tolerant" for want of a better term.

This is OLD technology and BTW Kawai isn't exactly new to the challenges of preparing APs for international shipping (-:

========================================================================

So, how would this work if I wanted a CA65 at the sort of price Musician's Friend offers ?
Would I get a factory tech to come out and fix defects like this for "free" ?
Are these alignments and "corrections" only available through local stores ?
I can understand that this may be what the retail premium is largely for.
Posted by: Temperament

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/02/13 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
Then, on the other end of the key, there is a small rubber pad (between the wood and the metal pin of the hammer): This pad will compress over time by usage, adding more clearance and giving the key a different mechanical sound.

I used my Kawai CA51 for some 5+ Years very intensively, and didn't noticed anything like that. I think there is not much changes in the hammer attachment compartment of the actions since then (AWA Grand Pro II -> RM3 = RM3-II -> GF), isn't it?
Posted by: Clayman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 12:54 AM

To be absolutely, entirely honest, things like that give me second thoughts about my decision to go for the CA-95. As much as I love the sound of the instrument (don't know about the touch, I have never sat at one yet), I will probably have to call a technician the next day after delivery to sort out the misaligned keys. And depending on where I choose to buy it from, the technician might have to travel hundreds of kilometers.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 12:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Clayman
To be absolutely, entirely honest, things like that give me second thoughts about my decision to go for the CA-95. As much as I love the sound of the instrument (don't know about the touch, I have never sat at one yet), I will probably have to call a technician the next day after delivery to sort out the misaligned keys. And depending on where I choose to buy it from, the technician might have to travel hundreds of kilometers.


I would never spend serious money on a a serious DP without first having auditioned one multiple times in direct comparison to the alternatives...it doesn't matter how reliable a given manufacurer's product is it you don't like playing on it.
Posted by: Clayman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 01:12 AM

Yes, that's the plan. I'm not going to buy one unless I hear it and touch it in person, preferably standing right next to the other contender(s).
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 01:24 AM

Clayman, I am inclined to agree with theJourney and recommend that you play-test the CA95 prior to making a purchasing decision.

If the dealer does not have this model in stock, the CA65 will offer a comparable playing experience in terms of touch, although the sound will obviously lack the additional presence of the CA95's soundboard speaker.

If you have not done so already, may I recommend contacting Kawai's distributor in the Czech Republic, 'Praha Music Centre' to enquire into the availability of this CA95.

http://www.pmc.cz/znacky.asp?ID=45

Kind regards,
James
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Posted by: Clayman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 02:18 AM

Thanks a lot for the link, KJ, I did check them out. They are indeed an authorized Kawai reseller for the Czech Republic but they don't handle retail sales anymore. Their website lists a number of retailers who should offer Kawai products (not all of them actually do, however) and I have already checked some of them out.

As I'm located in Prague, I focused on local retailers but those who actually list the current CA models will only make them available upon request/order. At the moment, I'm not sure if that order has to be a firm order that cannot be cancelled if for whatever reason I choose a different piano.

I'm actually almost firmly decided to pay thomann.de a visit and see for myself there. It seems they are the only safe bet in terms of immediate availability of any current CA model even though to get there means a ~350km ride. Not too bad as far as I'm concerned, the value of the investment still far outweighs the expenses.

At any rate, it's not the play-test I worry about. I have never played a piano before so I can get used to pretty much anything. It's the transportation to my place that gives me a mild headache. From what I have learned so far, it may turn out to be "problematic" with regard to the piano's keyboard.
Posted by: Hookxs

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 03:51 AM

Clayman, I bought my CA95 from Music City (Vysocany) and I am currently in the unfortunate process of warranty repair/exchange negotiation. The size and weight of the piano really complicates these matters. If you buy from Thomann (which was my original intention), such warranty repairs (if any) will be even more inconvenient.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Clayman
Thanks a lot for the link, KJ, I did check them out. They are indeed an authorized Kawai reseller for the Czech Republic but they don't handle retail sales anymore. Their website lists a number of retailers who should offer Kawai products (not all of them actually do, however) and I have already checked some of them out.

As I'm located in Prague, I focused on local retailers but those who actually list the current CA models will only make them available upon request/order. At the moment, I'm not sure if that order has to be a firm order that cannot be cancelled if for whatever reason I choose a different piano.

I'm actually almost firmly decided to pay thomann.de a visit and see for myself there. It seems they are the only safe bet in terms of immediate availability of any current CA model even though to get there means a ~350km ride. Not too bad as far as I'm concerned, the value of the investment still far outweighs the expenses.

At any rate, it's not the play-test I worry about. I have never played a piano before so I can get used to pretty much anything. It's the transportation to my place that gives me a mild headache. From what I have learned so far, it may turn out to be "problematic" with regard to the piano's keyboard.


I think I might start out on something that is less expensive, more resilient and easier/safer to transport than an instrument that is as unwieldly to move as an upright acoustic piano.

What does your teacher recommend?
Posted by: Clayman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 04:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Hookxs
Clayman, I bought my CA95 from Music City (Vysocany) and I am currently in the unfortunate process of warranty repair/exchange negotiation. The size and weight of the piano really complicates these matters. If you buy from Thomann (which was my original intention), such warranty repairs (if any) will be even more inconvenient.


I see. I am hoping that I won't have many issues with my piano but we all know that Murphy's laws are merciless and if something can break, it most likely will. In that aspect, having a local distributor resolve the issue would be preferable to having to ship the piano abroad. (On that note, I will also have to check out thomann's return policy on who's responsible for shipping fees in case of warranty repair/replacement.)

Now, without the intention of hijacking this thread, could you tell me, Hookxs, what your issue was with the piano and if Music-City are giving you any trouble with the return/replacement? I could use that information when deciding on where to buy the piano from. Thanks. smile

EDIT:

Originally Posted By: theJourney

I think I might start out on something that is less expensive, more resilient and easier/safer to transport than an instrument that is as unwieldly to move as an upright acoustic piano.

What does your teacher recommend?


I don't have a teacher (yet). This crazy plan is entirely a work of my own. smile For me, this purchase is a longer-term investment and in such cases I prefer to buy higher-end products. I would agree that the size of the box in which the CA-95 is shipped is pretty large but not nearly as heavy as an acoustic upright imho.
Posted by: Hookxs

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/03/13 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Clayman

I see. I am hoping that I won't have many issues with my piano but we all know that Murphy's laws are merciless and if something can break, it most likely will. In that aspect, having a local distributor resolve the issue would be preferable to having to ship the piano abroad. (On that note, I will also have to check out thomann's return policy on who's responsible for shipping fees in case of warranty repair/replacement.)

Now, without the intention of hijacking this thread, could you tell me, Hookxs, what your issue was with the piano and if Music-City are giving you any trouble with the return/replacement? I could use that information when deciding on where to buy the piano from. Thanks. smile


Chances are you'll be lucky and won't need any service, but there has been several posts recently about replacements or repairs of new Kawai keyboards so be prepared for such possibility.

My issues in short: several keys make clicky noise (mechanical), resonance issues for some keys (mechanical), damper resonance simulation has weird and faulty behavior.

Regarding Music-City: let me tell you in a few days, things started rather slowly and are only now getting into motion.
Posted by: R_B

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/06/13 07:22 AM

Originally Posted By: pschmatz
R B: From what I've seen from the Kawai keyboard is that even a super thin paper washer can visibly affect the height of the key (due to the location of the pivot). Just small bounce during transportation can move them out of alignment. Then, on the other end of the key, there is a small rubber pad (between the wood and the metal pin of the hammer): This pad will compress over time by usage, adding more clearance and giving the key a different mechanical sound.

Transportation restraint: This would certainly be a good idea. However it would have to be inside, and hold down the keys and hammers. Probably would prevent it from being able to allow "customer assembly".

Cheers


Between 4 and 5 minutes in this video;
http://vimeo.com/28802239
is what Wayne Stuart calls the "no go bar"

OK, so Grands aren't uprights aren't DPs, point is actions can be restrained during transport and it can be done fairly inexpensively.
Cable ties are single use, but available just about everywhere these days, so subsequent moves should be no problem.

BTW, this was from casual browsing - I am NOT seriously considering a Stuart piano (unless my fortunes change radically).
Posted by: Clayman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/06/13 12:20 PM

That's an interesting way to solve this issue but I wonder how hard it would be to implement such a feature into a DP's keyboard. I suppose sliding out the keybed might not be that hard to do but the wiring inside the cabinet would have to be a little more on the flexible side.
Posted by: R_B

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/06/13 01:24 PM

Retroactively ? It MIGHT be "possible".
As a design goal from "day one" ? probably trivial.

Deciding to do (something like) it is probably the HARD part.
(Corporate inertia ?)
Posted by: Clayman

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/06/13 03:15 PM

If it can be done easily, then it probably should not increase the production costs significantly, I suppose... Of course, the customer would be required to remove the bar themselves -- that would probably be the trickiest part depending on customer's aptitude (and how smartly that feature would be implemented) but the dealer could also remove the bar themselves as a part of an on-site setup.

Whether or not the manufacturers decide to use this feature is another question altogether but it should be in their best interest to secure their products for safe (and possibly long-distance) shipping and the lives of many customers would get a little easier.
Posted by: Temperament

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/06/13 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
If you have not done so already, may I recommend contacting Kawai's distributor in the Czech Republic, 'Praha Music Centre' to enquire into the availability of this CA95.
http://www.pmc.cz/znacky.asp?ID=45
Hi, James, would You be kind to give the Kawai distributor in Hungary ?
I would like to buy from (one of) them - there are some smaller dealer listing the CAs, but important to know who is the official Kawai contract.)
Thx.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/06/13 07:41 PM

Hello Temperament,

The most up-to-date worldwide distributor information is available from the following URL:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/

Clicking the link for Hungary shows the following information:

TUTTO HANGSZER KFT
H-8300 Tapolca, Dobó tér 1., Hungary
Tel. : +36 87/510-566
Url. : http://www.tuttohangszer.hu

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
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Posted by: Dave B

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/06/13 11:40 PM

I'm wondering why a retailer would deliver a piano with an obvious default?
Posted by: pianoworldanon

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/07/13 04:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave B
I'm wondering why a retailer would deliver a piano with an obvious default?


It's all about money, money, and more money! It's about being Stingy.

I am in total agreement with you David. Kawai should have took the piano back after having such a serious defect in particular when the 3rd tech couldn't properly do the job right. I don't think it's that expensive for Kawai to be in contract to have the piano shipped via special carriers in California. I don't remember but when I buy stuff from Amazon, there were times that Amazon did not use UPS / FED ex, but instead, they use some sort of 3rd party van services. It's part of offering customers a high quality product and high quality service. Right now, I'm in the middle of a headache with another vendor where I have to drive two round trips to an authorized dealer to have a board replaced that's in warranty and isn't my fault. Honestly, I don't know how the OP feels.. does he / she feel any bit of uneasiness in regards to not having a perfect piano? That would just eat me inside out!

What I'm curious is, could he have demanded a full refund and then buy another one? that's what i would do with American Express card if the repair was not completely satisfactory. Then does this mean that if such issue were to happen, the customer should insist on a refund instead of having it repaired? I would think so. Let that piano be repaired by Kawai and sell it as "refurbished" item, as it should have been, because that's exactly what the OP received. The OP clearly did not get an equal quality item in addition to his added frustration and lost time spent on fixing it himself. Kawai should have foreseen the issues and provided a complete white glove solution to issues that are not easily fixable. A tech can be sent out to replace boards, but fine adjustments, forget it.

This is an excellent video of what Piano Companies should provide for customer's to take part in fixing DP pianos if there's a need instead of having the customer to drive multiple 2 hour round trips to get something repaired, in my case.

http://vimeo.com/28802239

I'm already in love with this company due to the clarity of the video!

Posted by: Temperament

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/07/13 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: James
Hello Temperament,

The most up-to-date worldwide distributor information is available from the following URL:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/
Thx.

This is what Google displays first within Hungary also as a retailer. (But their internet site was not that great, why I felt motivated to ask You.)

Although it is not that clear, what differences this exactly means, but by having a deal with official distributor directly I would assume a sufficiently solid background proven by manufacturer and warranty seems the most secured.

Could You ever suggest to buy from another one? I could conceive one very big local dealer which "never" will go bankrupt, but have no direct contract with Kawai only with some local retailer. Is their warranty anyhow dependent on their original distributor?
What is if latter doesn't exist anymore in some future?
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: New Kawai CA65 - full keyboard replacement - pls advise - 04/07/13 05:10 AM

Temperament, my recommendation would be to put your questions to Kawai Europe. My colleagues there will undoubtedly be able to answer your questions about dealers in Hungary and surrounding regions better than I.

http://www.kawai.de/contact_en.htm

Kind regards,
James
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