Numa Concert

Posted by: robipiano

Numa Concert - 03/10/13 06:45 PM

Not bad. Opinion?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kuk5jGKLUg

robipiano
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Numa Concert - 03/10/13 07:41 PM

Funny that this hasn't come up before here that I've seen. Looks like an interesting piano to me. I guess it kind of got outshined by the VPC1 announcement.

In the past, numa models have had some QC issues--particularly with the electronics IIRC--which have made made them less popular in this forum. However, I have heard multiple people that liked the feel of the TP/40 wood action. I've never had the chance to play one unfortunately.

A gigabyte of samples is a good sign...I suppose that's a gigabyte for all the samples put together. Probably it's still significantly more than we have in typical DP's around here. It sounds pretty good, but virtually all demos do so we can't read too terribly much into it.

Thanks for pointing it out.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Numa Concert - 03/11/13 05:36 AM

I'm very intrigued to give Studiologic another go with the release of the Concert. My main complain regarding the cheaper Numa Piano was the action, which was hard to control and very noisy. If this TP40 wood action is comparable to the better actions in the market, and the new 1 GB AP sound is a further development of the high quality sound of the Numa Piano, the Numa Concert is quite interesting. One would still have to consider the lack of customer service from Studiologic...
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/12/13 04:41 AM

I guess this the same keybed as in the Physis weighted piano version ? If that is the case,then according to some reviewers here the action is good, but as I understood not as good as e.g. Kawai GF or RM3-II . Please correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to be an interesting board. Design and philosophy behind VPC is of course different, but this Numa has in addition
- build-in sounds, doesn't seem bad
- mod / pitch wheel (a request from several people interested in VPC here)
- audio in/ out
- expression pedal (?)
- a few controls
- only 20kg vs 30 kg in a sleeker design, making it more portable

If the street price is the same and the keybed is indeed very good and well tuned to the piano sound, it could become a tough choise.

Problem is its still studiologic with their notoriously bad after sales support, QC and lack of quick bug fixes etc. What if they acknowledged their failures regarding those issues in the past and make a statement that customer support , fixes and communication is from now on a top priority for the company. And act on it ! They might then convince a lot of pianists to try and go for the new numa.

As long as I still see many SL board returns at the shops as b-stock I'm not convinced yet
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Numa Concert - 03/12/13 10:17 AM

The Numa Piano had a USP, which was that it combined good sounds and simple controls with a lightweight chassis. Even so, I don't think it sold well on this side of the pond, and there were compromises in respect of the action, as well as design flaws.

The Numa Concert seems to have the USP of lightest DP with a wood action. I wonder whether this is enough of a draw when compared to, say the MP10, which has an established reputation in respect of both action and sounds. If the price is set significantly below the MP, then it may stand a chance, but it will be an uphill struggle to overcome the poor reputation that JFP refers to above.

Sounds good in the demo, though.
Posted by: Wess. Chr. K.

Re: Numa Concert - 03/13/13 08:34 PM

http://www.maclife.de/beat/news/studiologic-numa-concert-vereint-digitalpiano-und-masterkeyboard

In a few words – € 1783... IMPO a bit pricy for a piano with limited maintenance.
When I listened to the demo – it sounds to me as Fazioli in lower register – first preset, thought the pianist who plays did not show any classical fragments.
Mostly the low level instruments are being presented with such blah-blah tunes.
Moreover, no any word about half pedaling and so on.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/14/13 03:57 AM

Too expensive . We don't know what the street price will be, but at this level there's enough to choose from with the big(er) Japanese brands. If it where in the same price range as the VPC that would make the choice much harder. That is, if you can overcome the lousy QC / after sales reputation of SL...

Website states StudioSledge Numa Concert. Interesting rebranding.

Wonder what the reviews will tell us of people who can try the Concert at the Messe.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/15/13 08:49 AM

Listened to the YouTube demo once more ; this time on good headphones. I'm actually rather impressed with the grand piano sound. Pretty good ! Would love to hear more - also in other styles of music. And a completely sustained chord or note , so we can hear better the decay and loop phase of the piano and how it dies out.

Only in FF / FFF notes that are hit, it has a little artificial harsh 'twang' to it that I don't like. You see that more often in DP's - don't know why they do that (Roland SN, Korg Kronos Grand, Kawai HI-XL). As if all is perfectly right and well balanced , but when hitting the keys hard - the DP suddenly has to be turned into a rock stage piano, with a hard, over-brilliant , short tangy character. Nice to cut through the band-noise, but for normal use completely out of place and disruptive.

If it's in the samples there's nothing to do about it (Korg), but if it's in the processing algorithm , some tweaking or future firmware might take the hard edge out of the highest velocity layer.

Let's wait for more demo's...overall the AP sound is very nice to my ears.
Posted by: robipiano

Re: Numa Concert - 03/16/13 02:45 AM

After some investigations I found this
http://www.ekomusicgroup.com/viewdoc.asp?co_id=93967
And in the last picture you can see the electronic circuit with a web addres printed on.
And this is the website
http://www.sgmusiclab.com/products.htm
Here you can find other demo.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Numa Concert - 03/16/13 07:03 PM

I love that "harsh twang" (most noticable in the second AP preset). Sounds very expressive and downright ballsy!

According to here it has a triple-sensor action - does the Physis also have triple-sensor?

Greg.
Posted by: LarryShone

Re: Numa Concert - 03/16/13 07:53 PM

Thats one sharp keyboard!!
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 02:26 AM

Weighted Physis also has triple sensor. It's almost certain the same keyed.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 09:35 AM

Mmm, I remember having seen this site before (with the printboard layoutI assume while dissecting the specs of another digital instrument a while ago. Can't remember exactly what it was.

Question is how Studiologic claims to have over 1GB of sample data onboard, whilst this board only has the max capacity for 128MB. That would mean almost 1:10 data compression, which doesn't sound too good to me. for comparison , that would mean about 150kbps , or average mp3 quality. Interesting. How much is marketing gimmick and what of this 1GB (uncompressed equivalent?) is true.

Nevertheless I found the first grand preset quite good on the demo. Hope too hear more soon. Best is some notes or chords that they let die out completely , without pedaling (keeping hands on the pressed-down keys). Gives a nice indication of the decay, sustain phase and the looping (if audible).
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: JFP
Question is how Studiologic claims to have over 1GB of sample data onboard, whilst this board only has the max capacity for 128MB. That would mean almost 1:10 data compression, which doesn't sound too good to me. for comparison , that would mean about 150kbps , or average mp3 quality. Interesting. How much is marketing gimmick and what of this 1GB (uncompressed equivalent?) is true.

I was wondering the same thing. In fact, when I owned the Numa Piano, one of the first things I noticed was that the soundpack update file was around 120MB, as opposed to Studiologic's claim of 1GB for the internal sounds. It seems like there is indeed heavy compression involved. I believe that Korg's claim of 3.8GB for the Krome may be subject to similar qualification.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
when I owned the Numa Piano, one of the first things I noticed was that the soundpack update file was around 120MB, as opposed to Studiologic's claim of 1GB for the internal sounds.

Did we ever determine that the update actually changed the piano samples? I could be wrong or mis-remembering, but my impression was that the update altered many parameters yielding numerous sonic differences, but did not actually load a new set of samples.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 11:33 AM

120mb is a pretty large update without containing any sample data though...
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
120mb is a pretty large update without containing any sample data though...

Yes, I agree.

And in any event, if the main board is limited to 128MB, as now seems likely, the claim of 1GB has to mean, logically, that compression is involved.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 03:30 PM

Yes...and lots of it (data compression) !

Question is if you notice it, but at least it gives you doubts about the quality and marketing strategy. I know of data compression being used in multiple brands and boards, but they usually range from 2:1 to max 4:1.

If a StudioLogic representative could chime in to clear things up, that would be welcome. Kawai and Casio have some presence here to answer questions, so why don't others join in. It may help...

By the way, Kawai also gives no details about the exact ROM size that is used for the samples, but at least they neither make bold statements like 1GB Piano's. For the Numa Concert it should then be at least 500MB with lossless compression to forgo the impression that they're cheating the customer here...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Numa Concert - 03/17/13 07:54 PM

Perhaps they meant 1 gigabit?

James
x
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Numa Concert - 03/18/13 12:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Perhaps they meant 1 gigabit?

James
x

Maybe they did, but it's not a common term in the non-nerd world (no standard retail products I can think of use 'bit rather than 'byte), and would undoubtedly cause confusion.

Edit: the only example that comes to mind is when internet service providers measure their upload/download speeds in kilobits per second.
Posted by: ahhsmurf

Re: Numa Concert - 03/18/13 02:49 AM

Wonder what the reviews will tell us of people who can try the Concert at the Messe.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/18/13 06:17 AM

That would make sense: 1024 Kbit = 128 MB (fits exactly).

However it is indeed not common among instrument makers to give specs in Kbit instead of MB's. So if this is true , it is a real nasty misleading piece of marketing , although technically it may be listed correctly (if it is indeed Kb instead of MB).

The first grand preset sound quite good to my ears though, no matter how many MB's. Mostly because of the resonance effects.

Perhaps the base samples are not the most interesting part of a convincing AP sound, but a lot of it depends also on the 'acoustic effects' algorithms. E.g. the Kronos has a few good piano sample sets, but lacks good processing algorithms for smooth blending between velocity layers (that's we're PHI shines) and has no resonance effects at all, apart from damper resonance samples. That's we're it lacks in authencity and 'playability' , despite good long base samples.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Numa Concert - 03/18/13 08:26 AM

GB is gigabyte, Gb is gigabit. Which does Numa use to describe their sample size? (Not that that would be definitive, either... this is Numa we're talking about. I wouldn't necessarily count on typographic accuracy. But if they used Gb, that would lend support to the idea that they're talking about gigabits.)
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Numa Concert - 03/18/13 10:08 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Which does Numa use to describe their sample size?

GB
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 03/26/13 09:36 AM

€ 1727 @ MusicStore - estimated delivery time ; 10th of April. (Although that date means nothing , cause MusicStore notoriously changes the expected dates all the time).

IMHO > € 1700 is pretty pricey. FP7F (and upcoming successor?) is in that range , and a VPC + extra controller for mod wheel and such is still cheaper as well. Of course you then have to add the computer in the equation, but most often people have a computer already anyway.

For < € 1500 it would be more interesting - at least to me. After all it's studio-logic, not Yamaha, Roland, Kawai ...or it has to be really really d... good. There's still way too limited info to judge that.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/11/13 02:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tXG5fixCKXU

Judging from his text it seems the piano sound will spill over to the Numa Piano in an upgrade. That also means it's probably indeed 1 Gbit (128MB), like in the Numa Piano and not GB.

Furthermore the local MusicStore price is € 1699 (incl 21% VAT), which is more than the list price in Italy for € 1499 (what's the tax in Italy ?)
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 05:07 AM

One more video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIeisYUq-04
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 06:07 AM

Thanks. Don't really likes what he plays (a normal classical piece please - instead of fake jazzy nonsense ?) , but I still like the sound !
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 06:25 AM

The sound appears much different than in the first video posted. Could be a question of recording and eq...
Posted by: 36251

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 09:14 AM

Originally Posted By: JFP
Thanks. Don't really likes what he plays (a normal classical piece please - instead of fake jazzy nonsense ?) , but I still like the sound !
What's normal? You?
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 09:32 AM

Forget the word 'normal'

- just a few classical pieces that touch also the higher registers and different playing styles (low notes are almost always impressive on any DP - mid / high notes is where it becomes more difficult for the lesser models) .

P.S. the demo starts out just fine, but then it's followed by some smooth , mostly mid / low register improvised chord pressing. If you took offense in my remark (fake jazzy..) , that was not my intention. It's just more difficult to hear how a DP sound will hold up without proper real pieces being played - preferably some we all know well - instead of some of the 'demo's' we often hear.

Apart from that; simply demonstrating the capabilities by silent pressing and holding notes while playing others (sympathic resonance effect), playing + holding one or two high notes and let them fully decay naturally , playing a mid high chord repeatedly going from ppp to fff and other such examples give a nice impression too.

And for the record ; I'm not 'normal' , who is...?
Posted by: 36251

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: JFP
If you took offense in my remark (fake jazzy..) , that was not my intention.
too late.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 10:40 AM

This is more what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V3XjI9e_kX4

Unfortunately completely distorted on the camera microphone ; but this tells much more about the capabilities of the DP. Now the same movie with direct audio recording and you have a very nice demo...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 10:49 AM

The Italian demo sounds fine to me...

James
x
Posted by: dewster

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 10:59 AM

Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: JFP
If you took offense in my remark (fake jazzy..) , that was not my intention.
too late.

You need to apologize harder JFP! Say you love fake jazz - SAY IT!! wink

It doesn't sound bad in the videos - too bad SL pretty much blew it with me years ago. But we need larger sample sets to shake things up with the big boys.

Google Translate:

Quote:
The sampling technology more advanced
The new sounds Concert Grand and Grand Stage are based on 1 GB of memory samples of very high quality, made respectively of two models of acoustic piano concert absolute reference, such as a Model D and an F 308, previously granted and tuned by one of the most renowned technical sector, preferred and required for many musicians worldwide.
The original samples of pianos and 88 include all the notes, recorded with high quality microphones, placed in 5 strategic points of the instrument. This was played with different dynamic levels. Then all samples were mixed on two tracks Master Stereo high resolution. Both sounds have 9 levels dynamics (ppp = from pianissimo to fortissimo = ffff) and the various levels are interpolated in real time with a complex system of cross-filtering, to reproduce as accurately as all the nuances dynamic timbre, and thus make the performance more expressive as possible, with seals, the most delicate and intimate, the most aggressive, always with the maximum dynamic control.

Quote:
The DSP works with a clock speed of 300 MHz, which allows for incredible performance of 2400 MIPS (millions of instructions per second), corresponding to 1800 MFLOPS (millions of floating point operations per second), these figures allow a maximum total latency (delay between the button down and the sound generated), from 4.5 to 6 milliseconds, virtually undetectable under all conditions of execution.

Impressive.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 11:18 AM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: JFP
If you took offense in my remark (fake jazzy..) , that was not my intention.
too late.

You need to apologize harder JFP! Say you love fake jazz - SAY IT!! wink


I'm sorry ...I'm sorry ...I'm sorry (OK ?) !!

By the way - I tried to explain what I think are good examples to demonstrate the capabilities of the sound engine IMHO. In the other youtube video I found, there are a few of those examples where he demonstrates some of these features (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V3XjI9e_kX4). Unfortunately bad audio recording quality.

The first video demo DOES indeed sound OK - I've also restated several times I like the sound of the NUMA - but it misses a few examples that show more of what the Numa can really do. Anyway we'll probably hear more of the Numa Concert the coming weeks ..., like it so far.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 12:17 PM

Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: JFP
Thanks. Don't really likes what he plays (a normal classical piece please - instead of fake jazzy nonsense ?) , but I still like the sound !
What's normal? You?

Ha ha. I had similar thoughts. But anyway wasn't it improvisation? Important skill to learn, one day. .
Posted by: dewster

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 01:10 PM

Originally Posted By: JFP
I'm sorry ...I'm sorry ...I'm sorry (OK ?) !!

That's better. We obviously have a highly esteemed fake jazz dignitary visiting this site, and the whole world is watching.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/16/13 01:23 PM

I don't know how often I can repeat I may have used an excessive verdict in my sentence (sorry again ?). But to my own defense what I mostly meant is that smooth low / mid chords phrases may not expose the full richness of a certain piano model or cover up problematic regions. Therefore I said I didn't like what he was playing (after the initial classical bit). It was not primarily a musical verdict, but more that I'd rather hear other kind of demo's to hear all the details of the DP. I should have put in in another way obviously ;-)

IMHO on almost any DP some forte note in the bass range sounds impressive. Some smooth playing in the mid range as well. That's why you hear that so very often in so many demo's I think.

And indeed I originally come from a classical background, not Jazz. So what do I know about jazz or improvisation...mea culpa.
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Numa Concert - 04/17/13 05:37 AM

Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2DiTQ-EOgM

Not bad at all! Would love to try that wooden keybed combined with that new Steinway D and Bosendorfer/Fazioli sample they claim to have included in this board.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/19/13 04:39 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUFnuH...ayer_detailpage

Another one...
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/21/13 03:32 PM

From the Numaworld page:

"The Concert & Stage Grand sounds have been based on a source of 1GB studio quality 5 tracks digital recording of reference pianos preferred by top artists. The original recording included all 88 notes, captured by 5 close and surround studio microphones, played at multiple dynamic levels. Such accurate sound database has been reduced and mixed into a stereo 2 tracks (L/R) with hi-resolution and sampling rate.

The final sounds, both of the Concert Grand and Stage Grand, are based on 9 dynamic levels (from pianissimo to fortissimo) and the various layers are interpolated in real-time with cross-filtering and loudness parameters."

Rather vague; based on a 1GB recording / original (!) recording had 88 key-sampling / ...has been reduced and mixed into a stereo 2 tracks.

So what's in the machine in the end ? Still 1GB of sample material, or was that just the size of the first recording session and later on reduced and repacked and put into (presumably) 128MB memory ? Same goes for the 88 key sampling - has that been thinned and reduced as well for the final sample set ? I guess the translation from Italian to English causes this pretty vague description that can make the critical reader suspicious of what made it into to final instrument, but a cleared statement from Studiologic would help a lot.
Posted by: bfb

Re: Numa Concert - 04/22/13 07:48 AM

is doesn't sound like one small step for studiologic, one giant leap for piano players... does it?
Originally Posted By: JFP
From the Numaworld page:

"The Concert & Stage Grand sounds have been based on a source of 1GB studio quality 5 tracks digital recording of reference pianos preferred by top artists. The original recording included all 88 notes, captured by 5 close and surround studio microphones, played at multiple dynamic levels. Such accurate sound database has been reduced and mixed into a stereo 2 tracks (L/R) with hi-resolution and sampling rate.

The final sounds, both of the Concert Grand and Stage Grand, are based on 9 dynamic levels (from pianissimo to fortissimo) and the various layers are interpolated in real-time with cross-filtering and loudness parameters."

Rather vague; based on a 1GB recording / original (!) recording had 88 key-sampling / ...has been reduced and mixed into a stereo 2 tracks.

So what's in the machine in the end ? Still 1GB of sample material, or was that just the size of the first recording session and later on reduced and repacked and put into (presumably) 128MB memory ? Same goes for the 88 key sampling - has that been thinned and reduced as well for the final sample set ? I guess the translation from Italian to English causes this pretty vague description that can make the critical reader suspicious of what made it into to final instrument, but a cleared statement from Studiologic would help a lot.


is doesn't sound like one small step for studiologic, one giant leap for digital piano players... does it?
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 04/22/13 08:37 AM

Well , the resulting Steinway grand (first preset) sounds good to me ...
Posted by: Qbert

Re: Numa Concert - 05/05/13 05:27 AM

Originally Posted By: JFP

Furthermore the local MusicStore price is € 1699 (incl 21% VAT), which is more than the list price in Italy for € 1499 (what's the tax in Italy ?)


1499 is the current price in Italy, VAT incl.
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 06/02/13 03:44 PM

I took the German price. For me it would be € 1728. That is € 228 more than in Italy. For € 1499 it would be much much more interesting compared to the rest of the competition in stage piano's. Now it would cost more than an Fp-80 (street price); which offers much more sounds and features for the money.

Question:
- does anyone know if the basic piano samples in the Numa Concert are the same as in the Numa Piano. Meaning they only added a better keybed and some more sophisticated resonance processing ? Technically they seem identical, apart from the keys. Same control layout, same sound set, same memory and Trs algorithm . So, did SL indeed exchange the base sampleset for a new (better) set and if so, does that also count for the EP's and other sounds...

Perhaps a Numa Piano owner has more knowledge of this. SL / Fatar doesn't respond on any inquiries - do they ever ?! - and the store doesn't know. And ...of course the piano can not be seen or played anywhere unless you live near the well-known German web shop retailer.Which 95% of European customers do not...
Posted by: thomsurf

Re: Numa Concert - 10/07/13 05:09 AM

Haven't seen this demo before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0uu2kmM3CM

Such an appealing instrument, but the company behind it is not.
Posted by: wizardofkeys

Re: Numa Concert - 11/20/13 08:29 AM

yet another video...
focused on showing off the sound ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-O5M4HUrQ8
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Numa Concert - 11/25/13 10:34 AM

Oh dear! (And I don't mean the translation.)

Google translation of review
Posted by: JFP

Re: Numa Concert - 11/26/13 03:59 AM

Hard to read through the translation and an indication of what the Numa could (or could not) be. Always remember it is just one post / one opinion. Try for yourself in a shop is still the best way to verify if all is true or just personal preference , a Monday morning unit or both.

Nearest dealer that has one on display is 250km away. Bit to far to test it myself and write a review. Have no intention to buy one, just out of curiosity...