Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano.

Posted by: Amos

Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/13/13 10:54 PM

Can someone list out DP's with the capabilities of a real piano? In terms of Tone, Touch and Built.

Please this is crucial!
Thank you folks.
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/13/13 11:46 PM

smokin cursing
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 12:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Amos
Can someone list out DP's with the capabilities of a real piano? In terms of Tone, Touch and Built.

Please this is crucial!
Thank you folks.

By all accounts, Yamaha AvantGrand comes closest to a real piano.
Posted by: PianoZac

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 12:25 AM

Yamaha:
AvantGrands
NU1
CLP/CVP Series

Roland:
V-Piano/Grand
FP-7F
RD-700NX
HP Series

Kawai:
CA Series
CS Series
MP-10/6

All of the DPs above fulfill your needs.
Posted by: LesCharles73

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 12:34 AM

We abuse this deceased equine all too often, but what he said ^.

Good luck in your search!
Posted by: BDB

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 02:03 AM

I tuned a Yamaha DC6X today, which is a real piano with the capabilities of a digital piano.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 03:28 AM

Originally Posted By: BDB
I tuned a Yamaha DC6X today, which is a real piano with the capabilities of a digital piano.


Not to mention the capabilities of a friggin' pianola too!

If I had an extra forty-thousand euros laying around the house I think I might be tempted to get one of these beauties. The fact that Yamaha keeps building and improving and supporting these very cool products makes me very endeared to the company.

Pity about that Yamaha sound though....
Posted by: BDB

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 04:31 AM

It is possible to get a real nice sound out of Yamahas. We had a DC7 that was gorgeous, but unfortunately it was damaged in moving. That was the day I learned that, "Are we glad to see you!" is not what you want to hear when you show up to tune for a show. The CFIIIses have been nice. I am waiting for our CFX.

As long as we have the DC6X, I am hoping that we could have some classes on its capabilities. It has MIDI in and out, recording and playback, and a silent feature, none of which I know how to use, but I can imagine some interesting possibilities, and I am not really into electronic music.
Posted by: peterws

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 05:59 AM

"We had a DC7 that was gorgeous, but unfortunately it was damaged in moving."

Did it travel by air? By DC7? They had their drawbacks . . .
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 06:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Amos
Can someone list out DP's with the capabilities of a real piano? In terms of Tone, Touch and Built.

Please this is crucial!
Thank you folks.


You could get a lot of people hot under the collar with this question grin .

But I'll try very hard to be unbiased wink , and just point you in some general directions.
Assuming money is no object, have a look at the Roland V-Piano Grand and the Yamaha AvantGrand N3.

They were designed with different priorities. The Roland V-P Grand (and its stage version the V-Piano) is the only modeled digital piano to date, and it's designed to simulate all the tonal and touch responses of a real grand piano. It also gives the user the ability to customize several parameters to his liking, using any of 30 factory presets (all piano sounds - nothing else), including decay time (=sustain), damping time, hammer hardness, tone color, and soundboard, string, cross-resonances, tuning of individual 'strings', even pedal noise. Most of those parameters are adjustable from -100 to +100, so there's a huge range to fine-tune to the sound and response you want.

The AvantGrand, on the other hand, has its raison-d'ĂȘtre a grand piano action, which is a modified version of that found in a Yamaha grand (not concert grand, though the sounds are sampled from the CF-IIIS, now superseded by the CFX - the latter's sounds can be found on the NU1, which has the same philosophy but using an upright action).

Both have marvellous speaker systems designed to simulate the sounds emanating from a baby grand.

There are several videos of the V-P Grand being played and recorded in a concert hall setting (like for an acoustic grand in a classical concert), like this one: http://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo
For the AG: http://youtu.be/dpHO4lZtmqo
(I borrowed them from PianoZac's thread about V-P Grand v AG, which you might want to have a look at, if you enjoy fisticuffs..... grin)
Posted by: CarloPiano

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 07:04 AM

@Bennevis, did you mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKktyeuIs1U for the AG? Your link tells "video not available".

IMHO the V-P Grand sounds way better and richer than the AG. Shame Roland doesn't use real wooden keyboards.
Posted by: Temperament

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 08:17 AM

Yamaha has some hybrid pianos with real piano actions built in. (for the cost of a comparable acoustic instrument.)***

Kawai's recent wooden keys actions in their otherwise digital pianos are very real and good actions too, but without the mechanical ballast from the acoustics they cost much less.

***: A good acoustic has not to be new (but in a good state), 50 Ys. are here the best age of a nice Lady.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 08:51 AM

Originally Posted By: CarloPiano
@Bennevis, did you mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKktyeuIs1U for the AG? Your link tells "video not available".

IMHO the V-P Grand sounds way better and richer than the AG. Shame Roland doesn't use real wooden keyboards.


Sorry - fixed that link now: it's probably a better comparison with the V-P Grand video than the Katsaris one, because it's been recorded in what looks like a hall.

I've played the V-Piano Grand in a real (classical) concert hall, and (after a little judicious tweaking of its sustain and tone colour parameters) its resemblance to a real concert grand in its sound and response to touch and articulation and dynamics was quite uncanny. It really did feel like there was nothing one couldn't do on it that one could on a 9ft grand.

Yamaha never promoted their AGs in a series of classical concerts around the world like Roland did with the V-P Grand (unmiked and unamplified just like in a normal piano recital), so I have no direct comparison with the N3 in this setting.
Posted by: Koko

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 09:01 AM

Pianoteq + keys with good hammer action + low latency audio interface + high end open back headphones + time to set it all up
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: CarloPiano
@Bennevis, did you mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKktyeuIs1U for the AG? Your link tells "video not available".



Apologies, it was my mistake when transferring PianoZac's link to this thread - fixed the AvantGrand YouTube video link now.
Posted by: 36251

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 09:28 AM

Ad nauseam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_nauseam

My take:

V - less filling
AG - tastes great
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 10:22 AM

I can't believe anyone responded to this thread. The original question makes no sense. Unless perhaps if you interpret "close" in the subject to mean "closest," which I do not.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 11:29 AM

I wish you could get an AvantGrand N3 with VI Labs True Keys preinstalled.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I can't believe anyone responded to this thread. The original question makes no sense. Unless perhaps if you interpret "close" in the subject to mean "closest," which I do not.

Have you played the AvantGrand?

http://techland.time.com/2013/01/23/mostly-piano-not-pretender-yamahas-avantgrand-n2-a-year-later/
Posted by: gvfarns

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 02:04 PM

I agree that the AG is a nice machine (I've never played an N3 but I've played several N2's). But the OP popped in and said "Can someone list out DP's with the capabilities of a real piano? In terms of Tone, Touch and Built." And, I might add, never checked back.

All DP's we talk about here have capabilities of a real piano. That's the answer. None of them have the exact tone, touch, or build of an acoustic. That's the other part of the answer. Further, the OP put essentially zero effort into the thread and hasn't been back since, which makes it seem like it deserves even less effort in answering.

The OP didn't ask "Which DP sounds the most like an acoustic?" or "Which DP has the best touch?" Those are the two questions people are answering.

If you guys want to make an interesting thread out of this, I'm happy to follow it. I'm just surprised anyone bothered, because in my opinion the OP doesn't deserve it.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 02:12 PM

Yes, to some extent, the answer to his question can simply be summed up as either "all of them" or "none of them." But the one that comes closest is, by most accounts, the AG.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 02:58 PM

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I can't believe anyone responded to this thread. The original question makes no sense. Unless perhaps if you interpret "close" in the subject to mean "closest," which I do not.

+1. It's either a dumb or a naive question. PianoZac gave a reasonable starter, followed by a few more useful contributions with AG's and the V. Let's wait now until the OP has played some of the suggestions for himself, and get out of these useless subjective and meaningless debates.
Posted by: toddy

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 04:51 PM

Yes - Piano Zac gave a perfectly fitting and useful answer. Amos, the OP, could say at some point if he's found a DP he likes out of those suggested.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 05:12 PM

Don't you think you're being a bit harsh? A naive question it may have been, but if someone is naive they it's better to try and educate them rather than give them a hard time.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 05:31 PM

Well, I don't think a naive question is a bad thing at all, and an answer has been more than adequately provided to the question as asked. Nothing harsh there, but in retrospect "welcome to the forums Amos".
Posted by: ando

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 05:45 PM

It is interesting that it took over 3 years after registering on PW for Amos to make his first post...
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 06:16 PM

Well, the best things come to those who wait. wink

James
x
Posted by: xorbe

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Well, the best things come to those who wait. wink

Yeah, some rumors about possible Roland FP-8F? grin
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/14/13 11:40 PM

It was a stupid question for somebody who has been following the forum at all ...let alone lurking for three years. I'm sick of people asking dumb questions or worse making idiotic statements (a certain newbie here comes to mind ...99% of his posts are either stupid questions or idiotic statements) .... if these fools read a bit first they wouldn't have to ask such obvious things.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 02:08 AM

I'm sure you could find away of not letting it incense you so.
Posted by: peterws

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 02:15 AM

Amazes me the guys who chip in with derogatory comments! I can see this being one of the most popular postings. So the OP has something right! I think it`s a good question for those who are still bewitched by antiquity enough to sell their souls to it . . . Well, actually, buy. Because you never stop paying with an acoustic . . .
Posted by: LesCharles73

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: peterws
I can see this being one of the most popular postings.


That's because it is. Every week, a new "which one is closer" or "this or this" thread.

I say that out of love. I know this is what forums are [used] for - but it does get a bit tiresome.

Nothing replaces in-person judgment and personal taste.
Posted by: xorbe

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 03:10 AM

If you close your eyes and listen carefully, you can hear Gyro's suggestion ...
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 03:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
It was a stupid question for somebody who has been following the forum at all ...let alone lurking for three years. I'm sick of people asking dumb questions or worse making idiotic statements (a certain newbie here comes to mind ...99% of his posts are either stupid questions or idiotic statements) .... if these fools read a bit first they wouldn't have to ask such obvious things.


Perhaps we should just make the entire forum "read only" and instead of a "like" button we could have an "incense" button where people could demonstrate their humble and respectful reverence for the infallible and unsurpassed wisdom contained in the posts already existing?

I took a break from this place for quite a while. Did me good. perhaps some of our other esteemed contributors would be well-served by a time-out? No sense getting your blood pressure up over something so unimportant.
Posted by: Macy

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
It also gives the user the ability to customize several parameters to his liking, ... Most of those parameters are adjustable from -100 to +100, so there's a huge range to fine-tune to the sound and response you want.

Not impressive until they provide -110 to +110. The volume control is probably only 0-10 instead of 0-11 too!
Posted by: Dr Popper

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: xorbe
If you close your eyes and listen carefully, you can hear Gyro's suggestion ...
Originally Posted By: xorbe
If you close your eyes and listen carefully, you can hear Gyro's suggestion ...


I miss Gyro ... He was the village idiot but at least he was entertaining and he was our village idiot ...
Posted by: peterws

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 05:00 AM

Thing is, most asking for advice are new. So the questions will always be similar. One does not have to answer. But verbal pugilistics are fun.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 05:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Macy
Originally Posted By: bennevis
It also gives the user the ability to customize several parameters to his liking, ... Most of those parameters are adjustable from -100 to +100, so there's a huge range to fine-tune to the sound and response you want.

Not impressive until they provide -110 to +110. The volume control is probably only 0-10 instead of 0-11 too!





The volume control dial has very fine stepped notches. I counted to 111 before I nodded off......

I wonder sometimes if people who have no interest in playing acoustic pianos might be better off just looking for and buying a DP whose sound and action they like, rather than one that seems closest to that of an acoustic piano, with its over-resonant muddy sound (especially as soon as you put your foot on the pedal) due to too much soundboard and cross-resonances, graded keyweight and 'notchy' key action due to the escapement mechanism. The latter two are purely artifacts of the mechanical nature of an acoustic piano. Reading through many posts from DP users, it appears that many people want clear, clean, bright sound from their DPs, which isn't what you get from acoustics.

So, why bother to look for the 'closest' thing to an acoustic if you don't play on acoustics?
Posted by: pv88

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 05:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: xorbe
If you close your eyes and listen carefully, you can hear Gyro's suggestion ...
Originally Posted By: xorbe
If you close your eyes and listen carefully, you can hear Gyro's suggestion ...


I miss Gyro ... He was the village idiot but at least he was entertaining and he was our village idiot ...


Who else could play all of those "concertos" and "jazz" on a $600 Williams digital?
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 05:58 AM

You mean Big-Time Romantic Era Piano Concertos?

The secret is playing them one bar at a time, slowly.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 05:59 AM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I wonder sometimes if people who have no interest in playing acoustic pianos might be better off just looking for and buying a DP whose sound and action they like, rather than one that seems closest to that of an acoustic piano, with its over-resonant muddy sound (especially as soon as you put your foot on the pedal) due to too much soundboard and cross-resonances, graded keyweight and 'notchy' key action due to the escapement mechanism. The latter two are purely artifacts of the mechanical nature of an acoustic piano. Reading through many posts from DP users, it appears that many people want clear, clean, bright sound from their DPs, which isn't what you get from acoustics.


@bennevis,

I do agree with what you say here, as digital pianos offer a lot to the player in their own right, as comparisons to acoustics do not have to be made if you happen to like the digital that you have tried, or, want to buy.

Also, the escapement (or, let-off) feature is not that important either if you want a nice and smooth weighted action without the click/notch simulation. Many digitals (like my lowly Kawai EP3) play just fine, without it.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 06:06 AM

Well, this is the dp AND KEYBOARDS forum.

There used to be a movement of people learning keyboard instead of piano ( just like there was a movement before that of people learning home organs ). Here we seem to get mostly people wanting a piano substitute on the cheap, a silent practice instrument or a gigging instrument.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 06:07 AM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
You mean Big-Time Romantic Era Piano Concertos?

The secret is playing them one bar at a time, slowly.


Absolutely... until you can master the piece, 10 years later.
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 06:09 AM

Escapement is vital to sensitive playing of classical music, if that is your background.
Posted by: bennevis

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 06:23 AM

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Escapement is vital to sensitive playing of classical music, if that is your background.


I agree, but it isn't most people's background here.

I always find it very odd that Clavinovas don't have the escapement 'notch' feel, yet (apparently) they're used as practice instruments in many music colleges, including the RCM and RAM.
Posted by: pv88

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I always find it very odd that Clavinovas don't have the escapement 'notch' feel, yet (apparently) it's used as a practice instrument in many music colleges, including the RCM and RAM.


However, the older (now obsolete) CLP-990 does have the escapement simulation, although this is a digital I am looking for now (in my other post) although I am afraid it is going to be quite difficult to find one, since it dates from 2001.

Here is a video that demonstrates the escapement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D62G49_Rws

Go to the 55 and 1:10 second marks.
Posted by: Macy

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Macy
Originally Posted By: bennevis
It also gives the user the ability to customize several parameters to his liking, ... Most of those parameters are adjustable from -100 to +100, so there's a huge range to fine-tune to the sound and response you want.

Not impressive until they provide -110 to +110. The volume control is probably only 0-10 instead of 0-11 too!


The volume control dial has very fine stepped notches. I counted to 111 before I nodded off......

Hmm, I wonder if you didn't get my joke, or if I don't get yours ....?
Posted by: debrucey

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 05:26 PM

The Clavinovas in RNCM are all quite old and were probably not the best of their range when they were bought either. I can't speak for RCM and RAM.
Posted by: LarryShone

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/15/13 06:00 PM

My Yamaha PSR 225 has a pretty nice piano sound wink
Ok its old but so am I, and I cant have a piano at the moment...
Posted by: Temperament

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/16/13 12:23 AM




Some people are sick of people who are sick of people.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/16/13 01:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Temperament



Some people are sick of people who are sick of people.


Sounds like a Streisand number.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/16/13 01:56 AM

wink
Posted by: Temperament

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/16/13 07:26 PM

I didn't know about such a resemblance, but at the end I'll have to pay heavy royalties to her for this...

To coin memes is just a privilege - sometimes a rewarding one.
Posted by: Amos

Re: Digital Piano close to the capabilities of a real piano. - 03/18/13 09:33 PM

Thank you so much for your replies. The quest to fulfill one's desire and need is
endless. I'm sure without an iota of doubt this topic will help someone realise their need. Bearing in mind as we all strive for perfection, nothing on this planet is perfect.


I'm considering purchasing one between the following shortlist of DP's, Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CLP 480/470 and CP1 due to my budget. Can't afford the following Yamaha N1-3 as I heard they're good range of DPs.

"Kudos to all the sheep amongst the wolves and to the Platos of this forum."
I'm open to your advice.
Regards,
Amos