harpsichord sound on the HP-505 question

I have the very reliable information that the harpsichord 'early' sound in the ROLAND HP-505 is based on the ROLAND C-30 digital harpsichord sound. Nevertheless, I don´t get it to sound well on my 505:

Upon releasing a key I frequently receive a relatively loud 'iiuup' sound terminating the otherwise pretty tone. This annoys so much, that I claim the sound to not be usable at all. So far I did not find this artifact to be controllable by the way I touch the keys.
Any ideas? Do you have the same behaviour/problem on your ROLAND SN instrument? Any recommendation how to best configure the KEY OFF, the different RESONANCE, and maybe other settings for playing the harpsichord sounding usable in the HP-505?

I believe that sound on releasing a key is made on purpose. On a real harpsichord, when releasing a key, the quill brushes the string, making a slight sound. Or something to that effect.

I had the original Roland C-80 digital harpsichord and it made the same sound. The harpsichord sound on my FP7F seems the same as the C-80 also.

I believe you. It is just that I could never here such noise in a recording (CD / HiFi), and I recently really intended to hear it.
Would you know if this sound element could be down regulated by a certain parameter of the function menu?

Key-off noise/effect?

I couldn't find a way to turn off or adjust this key-of sound on my FP7F but it does seem possible on other models. The C50 harpsichord can turn it off and the C30 can adjust the volume.

I couldn't find any reference to it in the manual for your HP-505 but there may be a way to do it with some obscure setting or key combinations. Maybe Roland tech support could help?

I am pretty certain I know exactly what you are talking about, I have remarked on this most unpleasant sound on certain Roland voices a number of times.

Nobody has an explanation.

If I am right, the sound is only audible on Harpsichord 1, not Harpsichord 2.

The same sound occurs on a few tone wheel organs, some other voices and also is clear in Acoustic Bass 3.

This sound renders all voices on which it is heard unusable. It is a clear "Tchk" on key release and has no place on ANY instrument I have ever heard.

Here is the only recorded example of it I have ever found....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexJrb1w55Y

Go to 5 mins 11 secs, where a demonstration of acoustic bass plays it.

I have commented on the RD 700 NX thread, to no result.

Here is a "cut and paste" of that comment...


(Edit: the acoustic bass sound is actually quite good, and I'm finding it useful for gigs with LH bass, mainly played from the FP-4, which shares the same sound.)

The best acoustic bass would be acoustic bass 3, it is pre-programmed in the layering, but suffers from that dreadful "click" that renders it unplayable.

Harpsichord 1 has the same click and so do a few of the tone wheel organs plus various other voices.

At 5:11 you can clearly here it on this video of an RD 300NX.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexJrb1w55Y

Doesn't sound too bad as a "one-off" but when you play with no pedal the noise accompanies every note change and is terrible.

Acoustic Bass 1 and 2 don't suffer from it.

Time Roland fixed it.

On release of a key, the quill does indeed brush the string, quickly followed by the (usually felt) damper hitting the string. It is very audible to the player and can usually be heard on recordings of harpsichords at the end of a phrase or piece and is certainly present in sampled harpsichords for DP use. Whether or not the Roland sound equates to the "real thing" I cannot say. Not as intrusive as the sound of a tracker organ - which also is present in software instruments - but an integral part of the original instrument(s) on which the built in DP harpsichord sound is very loosely based.

IMHO, if you want to play a harpsichord on your DP, get some sample software. (Complete with aforesaid noises!)

The "key off" sound of a harpsichord is very much part of the overall sound of this instrument, and if it is not present the instrument does not sound natural. Precisely controlling the release of the keys on a harpsichord is an important part of the technique of playing such an instrument, and contributes a lot to the rhythmic expression. Learn to use it to an effect!

PS. I don't know how good the release samples on the Rolands are, I suppose they must be rather good on the C-30/50. On the lowly Yamaha P155 I own it is quite decent, and I would not be without it the few times I switch from piano to harpsichord.

It is not a "key-off" sound. There are several harpsichord voices on Rolands and Harpsichord 1 is the only one to produce this, it is a definite micro switching noise.

Did you watch the video on the RD 300 NX?

Why is a "key-off" sound produced on Acoustic Bass 3?

All voices with this switching noise are unplayable because of it. In no way realistic to any Harpsichord I have ever heard.

For reference here is a real Harpsichord and it demonstrates non of the clearly audible unpleasant clicking the Roland has, indeed, any "key-off" noise is well controlled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ffPVFTmK48

I also own a 22 year old Roland RD 300s and the harpsichord voice on that is far superior to the Harpsichord 1 on the RD 700 NX.

slipperykeys: I listened to the session music demo you linked to above. There is indeed a nasty click at 5:11 when the sound releases. If the Roland harpsichord sound in question here has indeed the same problem then I'd tend to agree that this is not a key off sample as there should be. (I've never listened to a Roland HP 505 so I can't be sure.)

Surely the 'unpleasant' clicks that Roland provide as key-off samples for acoustic bass and harpsichord are the realistic results of close miking technique: entirely authentic. But, of course, they would be lost in the context of a concert hall or chamber - or jazz bar for that matter. But they are not 'faults', but rather over zealous representation of the genuine sound of the instrument. It should be controllable as a user parameter.

Please apologize the delay in publishing a tiny sound example of what I call an sound artifact ('iiuup'), I should have published one right away:
Harpsichord sound example of the HP-505

Now that sounds perfectly as it should. See my first post in this thread.

Yes- it's like on my hp-302. sounds quite realistic, I think.

Hmm. Ok. I learned something.
Should this element of the sound change in some way if releasing keys at different speeds? I could not succeed to influence it that way.
I conclude that for playing harpsichord correctly I either have this sound element clearly present, or have to shroud it by skillfully playing alredy a next key while the former is still in its release phase, playing a kind of super-legato.
Did I get this correctly?

Yes, our (Roland HP) DPs mimick the effect of:

1. a quick release making less of a 'iiup' sound than a slow release (a bit like pulling off a sticking plaster (band aid) quickly hurts less than ripping it off slowly).

2. A proportionately diminishing 'iiup' as the note decays - so you don't get a loud key~release sound after the notes have all but died away.

But really, it seems to me that a perfectly normal legato technique masks these key-release sounds anyway. Try plying normal scales, with a good solid legato, and see if you even notice the intrusive 'iiup' - I don't.

Having said that, I know nothing about harpsichord/ clavichord technique - I tried one once and was disappointed to discover how tricky they are to play - because of the resistance of the quills - like 'escapement' notch only much much more pronounced.

ps, you can control the amount of the key-release effect you get on the HP 302 and HP 505, but only for the sn piano, unfortunately (there are 10 levels and 'off' accessed by: function/e.piano/'r of'). For harpsichord, it appears that the effect is fixed on our dps, according to the specification sheet.

.....but it certainly doesn't spoil my cornflakes - I'd miss it if it were not there.

Thank you, at last somebody else has heard this noise.

Bear in mind in the video it is a "one-off".

On the instruments that render it the noise occurs with every key lift unless the key has been depressed so long that the sound has faded away.

For any real playing of pieces, like Bach for example, it is totally unusable as the OP said.

Luckily there are other voices similar, but it is a sad fact that Harpsichord 1 and Acoustic Bass 3 would be the best tones, without the click.

Unbelievable that Roland are unaware of it.

Unfortunately the speed of the key release, or the already past decay time of the tone do not alter the loud 'iiuup' at all. It is almost always there, exactly as presented in my recording. Therefore in practice the 'iiuup' accompanies each tone and dominates all harpsichord experience. Later at home, I will try once more if I can figure out what systematically makes it to not be present in some so far rare cases. Maybe the speed of pressing down the key, instead of the speed releasing it can make a difference? Maybe I understood you wrong and you speak about the 'release' as the moment when picking the string and not the 'release' as the moment when the finger lifts off from the pressed key? FURTHER EDIT, BESIDES THE STRIKE THROUGH ABOVE: It only does not appear if the tone already decayed completely.

No - by 'release', I do mean the moment you release the key. It does vary in its grading and intensity according to the length of time the note has been dying away, and the speed with which you let the key go (release). This seems in keeping with the way the instrument really sounds, so I wouldn't agree that it was an error or fault on the programmer's part at all. Listen to this video where a real harpsichord is featured - you get exactly the same 'iiup' which does not impede the music one bit once he actually plays a sustained run of notes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71x4MSlpGUk ....it's the same with the Roland HP series harpsichords.In fact,if anything, the Roland is rather sanitized compared with the raw reality.

""No - by 'release', I do mean the moment you release the key.""

Right, select Harpsichord 1.

Press the keys to play any chord you want.

Depress sustain pedal while still holding the keys down. (I don't have the three pedal unit to test it but it may be the same on all three pedals)

Release keys..... result NO TCHK, sound fades away nicely.

Release sustain pedal ...... result TCHK!

There is no doubt in my mind this is a glaring software fault, it is in no way related to an acoustic harpsichord mechanism.

I will repeat what the OP said... this noise renders the voice unusable.

Let me put it this way, this noise, which I have never heard on a "proper" harpsichord, nor on the RD 300s, is so annoying I will be considering a Kawai, which (Thank God) has no such "realism".

When you silence the still ringing note with the note's damper mechanism - no pedal involved, sustain or otherwise - the note shuts off, reacting to that damping mechanism ('iiup'). This is very similar to the effect you hear here from an actual harpsichord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71x4MSlpGUk

Thus it is realistic and therefore not a software fault. Obviously, if you let the note decay to silence (by sustain pedal or keeping the note down) there is no energy left in the string to create the 'iiup' sound, therefore it does not happen. This is what happens on a real harpsichord and on the Roland. Seems like a very good example of software programming to me. Perfectly usable for passages of music where the effect becomes part of the overall musical experience very well, imo.

Why are you using the sustain pedal with a harpsichord voice? This pedal has no place in either acoustic or digital harpsichord playing. On an acoustic harpsichord, the release of a key, however long it is held, will produce a sound: the sound of the quill brushing past an as yet undamped string, followed by the damper hitting the string.

DOH!

Have you read the whole thread?

Simply to demonstrate it IS NOT a key-off effect, it is an electronic noise.

You will see that I have referred it to the same sound as the Roland produces on Acoustic Bass 3, again, nothing to do with "mechanicals" simply a software glitch in which the micro switching is amplified.

I agree that the sound on the harpsichord video is audible, however, it does not render the instrument unusable, a subtle difference to the Roland!

However, it seems we will have to agree to disagree.

I will agree with you when I find the Harpsichord 1 voice on the Roland is as usable as the other harpsichords, until then it is an ugly waste of space for me (along with Acoustic Bass 3, some of the ten tone organs and a few other voices).

I have got to re-quote this from Marco...

"Unfortunately the speed of the key release, or the already past decay time of the tone do not alter the loud 'iiuup' at all"

Please not use of the word "LOUD", it really is important.

As slippery keys said, this is to establish the nature of the noise at key release at different stages re decay - not as an actual performance tool!

However, I come to the opposite conclusion from slipperykeys - I think it's a well recorded & programmed sound, especially considering it's an extra feature (this is, after all an SN Piano - harpsichord etc are bonuses).

....so I also agree with slipperkeys that, by this point, we can agree to differ.

When did anyone make it clear that the use of the sustain pedal was solely to demonstrate a point? A quote would be useful in case I missed it.

I assume the pedal facility was deliberately re-activated to make this point, as normally both pedal(s) are deactivated when using the harpsichord voice.

...well, the whole thread is about establishing whether the key-off sound is intentioned or not, and if so, whether it's effective - hence we're arguing 'a point', and this includes experimenting with the sustain pedal. The fact that you would not get a sustain pedal on an actual harpsichord is not really relevant....you just need to avoid it when playing harpsichord.

The sound of a plucked string of an acoustic harpsichord decays naturally and if left long enough without the key being released would result in silence. On release, there will be the sound of the quill brushing the string followed by the sound of the damper hitting the string. This sound is unavoidable. The only variation in those sounds depends upon how many other strings are open at release and how many keys are released at the same time.

Good samples will replicate the sounds - in their minute variations - because they are based upon real harpsichord actions. The extent to which DP harpsichord voices are poor - I have yet to find one better then poor - rests upon either inadequate sampling or induced electronic noise or both.

Thanks to everybody contributing to this thread, it was clarifying the situation perfectly and it is now clear to me that the harpsichord sound is sampled very well! It is obviously sampled from the close up perspective of the player and not from the perspective of the audience which is located further on distance to the instrument. Thus, playing harpsichord on the HP-505 emulates soundwise the situation of the player, and not so much of the audience.

Having experienced that also the piano sound of the HP-505 has a (to me too) loud hammer mechanism sound present in the tone like I rarely hear it sitting in the audience of a piano concert but lately could first time hear it once being very(!) close to the grand piano played by some professional pianist, I conclude that the Roland HP models in general are focussed to best possible imitate the situation for the player, and soundwise is not aimed to render the tone as heard by the audience located more on distance to the instrument. It is thus an actually excellent instrument for the pianist who needs to practise as compatible as possible to the real thing (grand piano or harsichord), but a little bit irritating to a hobbyist like me who first hand compares the sound output only to what is experienced from the audience perspective (concert hall and CD recordings).

This thread really changed my understanding on my still relative new instrument so much, that I will shortly publish a new review on the HP-505, because my former ones obviously have missed this very important detail about the perspective from which the HP models should be looked at.
Thanks to everybody!
(For me, the OP, the thread could successfully terminate here )

I wanted to chip in sooner, but it takes a short while to register. I recently had a chance to fool around with a real harpsichord, and noticed a difference in the key off sound from my fp7-f. In my roland, the key off sound only changes in frequency according to the note played, but releasing the key at different speeds does not affect the key-off sound. In a real harpsichord, that sound changes with the speed with which you release the key.

MDP92, thanks for this confirmation of what I somehow expected. It´s too sad to have this expensive SN instruments at home, finding so many excellent base also in their extras, only to become disappointed that so many of these extras have not really been finished.