Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews

Posted by: Nikalette

Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/10/09 01:28 PM

Starting a new thread since we have a few buyers here.

Please post your reactions when your DPs arrive.
Posted by: Acoustic Dave

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/10/09 02:45 PM

Rec'd my PX 130 last night and have only set it up, so I can only say so far it looks great! I ended up buying the "Stage Essentials" package from Kraft Music, which includes the double-X stand, sustain pedal (to replace the cheap switch pedal that comes with the 130) and a Privia carrying case.

Just an fyi, it came with the AC adaptor, sustain switch pedal and song book with the music for the 60 songs built into the demo. The DP offers the option to cut out the left or right hand of the demo music, so I'm looking forward to learning those pieces one hand at a time!

Another piece of software I'm looking at is the Mac iLife '09 version of GarageBand which now offers downable Piano Lessons for free (looks like there are about 10 lessons in total, starting out easy and ending up with how to play the Blues!), and then for a price, you can also download lessons from artists on how to play songs they made famous (Norah Jones, Ryan Tedder of One Republic, Sara Bareilles, etc.)
Posted by: kcostell

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/10/09 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Acoustic Dave
The DP offers the option to cut out the left or right hand of the demo music, so I'm looking forward to learning those pieces one hand at a time!


This feature was also in the PX-120 and I found it wonderful, especially when I was trying to learn one of the Bach inventions and could hear how the hands fit together even as I was learning each hand separately.
Posted by: MeowR

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/10/09 10:54 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong kcostell, bu the PX-120 DIDN'T allow you to choose a bass tone and another tone (other than piano), am I wrong? Anyway, The speakers in the PX-130 still aren't great, but plugged into my Sennheiser HD 280 Pro's, has a LOT better sound than the 120 IMO. OH so cOOAL!

(Mine arrived today. And I camped out for it. Stand an all. YAY!)

Edit: BTW, a relatively nice improvement is that these AC adaptors don't get hot if you leave them plugged in like the 120 and below. That was a huge pain having to unplug after turning off (just a tiiiny thing, but tedious) It actually feels cool to the touch.

Oh well, back to my newbie songs. xD
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: kcostell
Originally Posted By: Acoustic Dave
The DP offers the option to cut out the left or right hand of the demo music, so I'm looking forward to learning those pieces one hand at a time!


This feature was also in the PX-120 and I found it wonderful, especially when I was trying to learn one of the Bach inventions and could hear how the hands fit together even as I was learning each hand separately.


I bought a Casio CTK 591 about 5 years ago for my daughter ($149) and it has the same neat separate hand training, with a big built in songbook (including a Bach invention), and 3 training levels, and other neat educational stuff. One reason I decided I could live without that on the 330. It doesn't have good touch or sound, but for the muscle memory part and learning the piece it's great. It also has a voice that calls out the fingers, 2 hand graphics on the display, and a keyboard graphic...just not the score.
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 07:40 PM

Well i just got mine today so I'll give some initial reactions. I got the PX330 by the way but so far have just tried the main piano sound for the most part. It sounds good, like a real piano to my ears but i can see where someone here the other day described it as a bit harsh. I have been playing on a non-weighted yamaha DGX-300 that's about 3 years old and the yamaha sounds pretty nice itself, perhaps not as good as the casio (newer technology in the casio after all) but perhaps also without that touch of harshness the poster mentioned here a couple of days ago in another thread.

OK so i'm not used to weighted keys so take that with a grain of salt but I'm almost getting the clumping sound already almost as if i'm hearing or feeling a drum beat when i hit the key; I'm not hitting overly hard, or don't think i am and again when i compare the casio to my non-weighted yamaha dgx-300 the yamaha does not have this clump but of course the keys on it are not weighted so maybe this is a natural occuance because of the weighted keys.

One smaller detail that is bothering me a bit on the casio is the top of the keys seem to be a plate that is glued onto the main body of the key, so to speak, and there is a little overhang as there also is on my yamaha and i suppose on all piano keys. The top 'plate' of the key on the Casio however is somewhat sharp on it's underside, the little lip where it protrudes over a bit from the main body of the key, and although i probably have no business grazing my thumb against this underside of the 'lip' when am stretching (i was playing fur elise as the example) my thumb will brush up against this underside a bit and feel the sharp edge of it. The yamaha dgx-300 has a nicely finished 'lip' to the top plate of the key and without taking a flashlight to it it's not even that obvious that it's a seperate plate; on the casio it's kind of obvious which wouldn't be so bad if it were not for it being a tad on the sharp side.

OK I don't want to sound like i'm totally bashing the casio because i'm not so likely to list a bunch of things that i do like about it; that is the little things that are striking me as downsides will show themselves first; so perhaps assume to some degree that other than that everything seems quite nice about it.

I have to admit i'm probably going to try and do a side by side comparison with the yamaha P-155 and see if the clumping is something the casio has or if it's also evident with the yamaha and just something that occurs because of the weighted keys in general. Just a caveat that my observations on this with the casio is not based on alot of experience with pianos in general. i also don't think it's the 'lack of felt' clumping issue that some have mentioned with the casios but like i said i'd like to compare now that i have a better frame of reference to see if the Yamaha also has this percussive clump effect I'm noticing with the casio.

A couple of things that Geoffk mentioned in the other 130/330 thread the other day was that the casio has a somewhat sluggish syrupy feel to the keys....I just played a little of the Linus and lucy bassline and had to agree that it did seem a little....sluggish and syrupy.... Also Geoffk said that the 'response to volume change from ppp to mf is a little jumpy and not as smooth and intuitive as it should be' and I'd have to agree with that too...now again I'm a beginner, only played for the better part of a year, taught myself to read music and learned a dozen of so simple pieces like Fur elise and bach's prelude in C and stopped for a year and a half for the most part (although played alot of fiddle, banjo and classical guitar in that time) and then got back into it a few months ago....so my opinions may be partly due to my own inexperience and even ignorance. But like i said i'm going to have to try the yamaha155 to compare what I've noticed about the casio px330.

Some of these things, not sure about the thudding of the keys, would not be necessarily deal-breakers but may be a matter of you're not going to be able to expect perfection for about
$400. Would it be worth it for me to spend about twice as much to get the yamaha even if it clears up some of these relatively small issues? (if the clumping thing is not apparent on the yamaha p155 then maybe not so small) It well might.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 08:56 PM

@limavady

I know what you mean with the sharp top plate. I had the DGX 630 and I know that the keys have a nice finish.

But I was surprised after I visit a friend who has a real piano, and these keys also have this sharp underside

So this is in my opinion just a nice feature from the DGX series.

I compared the DGX-630 to the PX-320 and the keys from the DGX where much more louder. After I read that the PX 330 has better sound and keys I decided to wait till the 330 is released.

You cannot compare a non weighted key keyboard with a hammer weighted keyboard, this is like comparing apples with pears wink It is also not usual to compare a $699 model vs. a $1199 model. There is always a piano which has better features for more dollars wink
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 09:08 PM

I agree and actually edited my 'review' with the last paragraph about the same time you posted to acknowledge what you are saying mainly your last paragraph. (but before i'd read it) Like i'd mentioned I'm going to have to go and compare. I'm probably tending to focus on potential problems and should say that the casio also plays and sounds very nice. Might be a matter of good/better/best and I'm being a little picky. Maybe though i would be willing to pay twice as much for just that extra step up in quality.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 09:30 PM

Limavady, hope you have a good return policy there, because I think it takes at least a few weeks to adjust.

My YPG has that thudding thing also, not noticeable at all on headphones, and not when I'm playing louder voices, but on the grand piano if it's not at full volume it's kind of annoying.

One of the reasons I picked MUSIC 123 was the 45 day return policy (made that mistake on the YPG with B&H which has only 15 days).

My keyboard is weighted and so it will be interesting to have a leisurely side by side comparison to decide what the difference is.

I find the keys kind of hurt my fingers compared to an acoustic! I don't know why that is, except that an acoustic is so much more responsive and so much louder I tend to play really quietly.

I've resigned myself that my "now" DP is going to be lower cost and have drawbacks. I really don't want to pay $1500 (or in the case of the CVPs many thousands) for a sampled piano that is going to just be a quantitative upgrade....I really want something like the Roland V...a qualitative upgrade...otherwise, I'll rent an acoustic.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 09:30 PM

Limavady
Are the keys making a thumping sound when you push them down? What I was complaining about was the sound they were making when returning to their rests (clacking). All digital pianos make noise when the keys are pushed down--the hammers strike a piece of felt or something like that simulating a hammer striking a string. This is what gives the weighted feel. Some people who have Roland FP 7's complain about how the keys bottom out suddenly. These are $1800 pianos. I think you will find the Yamaha touch feels lighter than the Casio.

I played a PX-130 again a couple nights ago and noted the sound does sound a bit harsh. Was listening through some cheap ear bud headphones. Don't have a good pair of phones with an eigth inch jack. It sounded better through the on board speakers although I was wondering if the harsh sound is distortion. The 130 I was playing did play loud and even through the on board speakers, turning up the volume seems to overdrive the speakers. This might be amp distortion. Would need a good pair of headphones to accurately assess.

Casio does seem to use hard plastic on their keys and yes the edges can be sharp. Keep in mind all DP's are a replica of a real piano. None is going to be perfect. They all have their quirks.


Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 09:32 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Limavady
Are the keys making a thumping sound when you push them down? What I was complaining about was the sound they were making when returning to their rests (clacking). All digital pianos make noise when the keys are pushed down--the hammers strike a piece of felt or something like that simulating a hammer striking a string. This is what gives the weighted feel. Some people who have Roland FP 7's complain about how the keys bottom out suddenly. These are $1800 pianos. I think you will find the Yamaha touch feels lighter than the Casio.

I played a PX-130 again a couple nights ago and noted the sound does sound a bit harsh. Was listening through some cheap ear bud headphones. Don't have a good pair of phones with an eigth inch jack. It sounded better through the on board speakers although I was wondering if the harsh sound is distortion. The 130 I was playing did play loud and even through the on board speakers, turning up the volume seems to overdrive the speakers. This might be amp distortion. Would need a good pair of headphones to accurately assess.


I have some good Bose headphones with the smaller jack, I really don't get why Casio puts that wee output on there.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 09:58 PM

I have some good Bose headphones with the smaller jack, I really don't get why Casio puts that wee output on there.

It seems that they went to the 1/8" jack starting last year on the PX-120/320. My PX-575 has standard 1/4" for headphone, but no line outs. They must be using smaller speakers in those newer painos since the cases are smaller.
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/11/09 10:02 PM

galaxy4t, well it is the thud they, they keys, make when pushed down which i realize may be normal as well as my not being used to weighted keys. Good point about the quirks each brand may well have; Like i'd mentioned i'm probably not necessarily looking for things to complain about but yes looking for the sore spots that stick out. I will try and compare the casio with the yamaha p155 especially now that i have a point of reference with the casio. Some of these things, the sound being good but not perfect for instance, other people have pointed out in their opinions of the casios and i can't expect perfection for about $400 or for $1000 for that matter. Just going to have to compare now and decide if the yamaha is better enough to warrant the difference in price.

Nikalette, thanks, no sweat on the return. MF also has the 45 day and i've bought quite a bit from them and returned very little so they shouldn't make me feel too guilty....but right now i'd still say there's a 50% i'll keep it. ....and 50% i won't!
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 01:22 AM

Well I went to Sam Ash in search of a PX330, but they did not have one set up so I sat down and played the Yamaha P-155 and the PX130. I played the P-155 for longer than the 130 and came away feeling that the PX-130 stacks up well in the piano sound. I would say the 130 is reasonably close to the P-155 in the piano sound. Some of the samples seem to ring on both models in the middle C register. The other sounds are different on both models. The Yamaha has better strings and better electric pianos IMO. Action is lighter and springier on the P-155. No question, the Casio is stiffer. I wouldn't call it like syrup as nothing sticks; it just has more resistance. If your fingers are not used to stiff action, you will have to build up your strength. The PX-130 I played did not have any distortion like the one I played at Guitar Center. The piano did not sound harsh to my ears. The sustain in the higher registers was also better. Seems to be an indication of quality control on this model. The keys felt solid with no sign of clacking. I am interested in seeing how the action feels in about 6 or 7 months of music store pounding. Considering the price, it is definately worth consideration for anyone shopping for a DP, especially entry level.
Posted by: MeowR

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 11:10 AM

Wear some good closed headphones and listen as u play on the higher register.
Originally Posted By: limavady
galaxy4t, well it is the thud they, they keys, make when pushed down which i realize may be normal as well as my not being used to weighted keys.

The thud is also in the sounds emulated.
Woo fun!
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 01:09 PM

One of the reasons I didn't buy the PX 120 when I was shopping was the heavier action. Yet when I got my YPG home,the action seemed heavier than I remembered. I thought the action on the PX 130 at GC was much lighter than the PX 120.

I found out something that I didn't know through all this: Guitar Center owns Musicians Friend who owns Music 123!
Posted by: Swamp Crocodile

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 03:07 PM

Got mine last weekend from local Samash store for $499.99 + tax, used the email coupon for a free electric guitar + amplifier + goodies (even guitar stand) and could not resist. My other keyboard is the ypg-635.
Sound is good, have not tried it with amplifier. I am happy with the limited set of sounds (if I need variety I go to my yamaha). I think that this keyboard in a sense is a step back from the px120, they took out the rythms. But I like the consistent sound accross the keyboard (no strange pitch changes). Note: mine came with the music plastic stand (the one you slide on top of the keyboard) broken, I discovered it after a couple of days , had no problem exchanging it at the store.
Very happy with it as a second and portable keyboard.
But if I had to keep one only I would keep the ypg-635 for the sound, touch and features.
I think that pricewise this is the best weighted keyboard you can buy.
End of my two cents.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 03:32 PM

Did you get the Casio for portability?

I have the YPG also and I may end up keeping both.
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 05:06 PM

It is funny the trade-offs and back-steps casio seemed to make with the 130 and 330. Like BSC was saying taking out the rhythms on the 130 seemed odd and was one of the reasons i opted for the 330 (the labor day sale price justified going for it as well) but then i discover that the 330 does not have the 60 song with score book feature that the 130 does. i thought it did because on the MF site they listed (incorrectly on a couple of counts) the scorebook and also the adaptor as accessories although costing extra) So why would there be a score book available if there were no 60 songs? But both of these were a mistake on the part of MF, no score book/60 songs and the adaptor was in fact included.

I was heavily leaning on not returning the 330 just for a couple of minor things and i still may hold onto it. For one thing i hate taking advantage of the return policy just for a couple of minor gripes and especially if there's not actually anything wrong with the item. And in fact the 330 is growing on me- does seem a tad heavy/sludgy as Geoffk had said but my frame of reference to other weighted keyboards/pianos is limited- but overall i'm really digging it. The copy misprint about the 60 song scorebook and my assuming the 60 songs were also on the 330 is perhaps a small gripe as well but does add to the short list i have where at some point i would feel like i was justified in returning it. The added voices, 250 or whatever, on the 330 are basically worthless because the vast majority sound lousy....so i just wish they had kept the rhythms on the 130 and i'd be happy with the limited voices because like i said the 250 mostly sound like you know what anyway....also the songbook/60 song deletion on the 330 is just another example of casio doing an upgrade but then taking something away as well....and i was led to believe from the MF copy that the 60 songs were on there...so I know I'm whining but it's also a very nice DP actually so I'm still at 50% if i'll hold onto it or not...the 1 year warranty compared to yamaha's 3 year parts and labor may well nudge me over the line though.
Posted by: Swamp Crocodile

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 05:52 PM

Portability was important. Now I have the px130 in the beach (actual home on weekends) and the unmovable ypg at home. And in the future when I go to gigs will carry the px130 and the double x stand. Well: back to the px130 (it is hearing the conversation, it is weekend)

In your case I would keep both - what better use for money unless to use it for buying nice keyboards :-)

Originally Posted By: Nikalette
Did you get the Casio for portability?

I have the YPG also and I may end up keeping both.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: BSC
Portability was important. Now I have the px130 in the beach (actual home on weekends) and the unmovable ypg at home. And in the future when I go to gigs will carry the px130 and the double x stand. Well: back to the px130 (it is hearing the conversation, it is weekend)

In your case I would keep both - what better use for money unless to use it for buying nice keyboards :-)



I like the way you think!
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 06:10 PM

Limavlady, I agree about the different trade-offs, I bought the YPG specifically for the educational stuff, it has more songs even than the Casio, I think although not all are preloaded, they are on a disc and I transferred them. With that tho' I had to print out the songbook.

So the thing with the Casio, and I'm betting the P130 is the same as my old CTK, SOME of the pieces are actual transcriptions of scores, and some are simplified versions.

Does the P130 have a good size display for the score? The CTK doesn't have the notes but does have the keyboard and the hand icon, so it works...I really haven't used the feature that much, even tho' I'm working on a Bach Invention that's in there, and I don't use that feature much on the YPG either.
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 08:15 PM

Nikalette, Don't think the 130 has an lcd display at all. the one on the 330 seems to basically show both the voice and the rhythm being used and lets you then toggle between the two when choosing options. On the 130 there are no rhythms and very few voices so they probably figured just keep it simple and let you go by the red light indicators on the panel. So that's what the 'score book' is about with the 130.

You're making me feel better by saying you didn't use the song feature that much. The 50 songs that came with the yamaha DGX-300 i've had i haven't used all that much either although the 20 or so classical pieces are pretty nice and also with an included music book; I just have preferred getting actual sheet music for even some of the pieces included on it.
Posted by: MeowR

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 10:37 PM

the PX 130 does NOT have an LCD display. Scorebook is nice and fat though (not that I can play any of it at the moment, good for reading study? XD)

lima, if you're really planning to return that, take note you might have to pay return shipping. Something around 26 lbs with those dimensions will not be cheap. I don't think so, anyhow.

But from another point of view, its $500+, and that being your $500+ money, you won't be abusing a return policy. Trust me, you're not going to even hurt MF a teeny bit. So do what you need to for you to be satisfied. They give you over a month to try out, so I'm sure you'll know by then. Hope you enjoy it like I do mine!
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/12/09 11:01 PM

Limavady-Just curious what you don't like about the sounds your 330 has. Can you elaborate? Does the 330 offer the ability to edit the sound patches and to save them in registration memory. I believe the PX-320 had this. I guess you haven't messed with the 16 channel sequencer yet, but the thought of being able to score your own songs seems intriguing. Does the LCD display show any of the notes you play or is it just rhythm and tone information?
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/13/09 12:40 AM

well i almost feel a little guilty for whining so much about the 330 especially after having had it such a short time because i'm really starting to dig it alot; might be partly i'm getting a feel for the weighted keys which i had not played before and now almost similar to getting a better guitar my ability at being able to play seems to be increased just because of the better quality and realistic (weighted) keys.

galaxy4t....I haven't tried all that many but wasn't too crazy about the harpsichord and that group of sounds for instance. i then did try some of the electric piano sounds and they were actually pretty nice though. The 330 does have an extensive registration memory cabability to save your sound patches. No, haven't played with the recorder yet and although i will of course i started to wonder how many tracks i could dub without making a muddled mess; i mean how many piano overdubs can anyone do without it sounding weird? On the other hand with all the different sounds this should be alot of fun to experiment with. The display does not show a music staff/ what notes you're playing; it usually shows what tone you're on and then below that the rhythm it's set to; and so far i've noticed it will go to another screen when you want to transpose showing of course the + or - you've chosen and also it's used for showing the metronome setting if you want to change time signatures on that; triggered initially by holding down the metronome button like on other keyboards. There may be more info screens it's used for but those i've seen so far.
Posted by: kalpazan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/13/09 01:32 AM

Btw, manual for PX-330 is now available on the Casio website and it has all the functionality and displays if you want to check them in advance.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/13/09 10:25 AM

I've been trying to find the owners manual for the 330 and haven't been able to.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/13/09 10:53 AM

I just read the PX 330 owner's manual online and it has an option for practice hands separate. Also you can download songs to practice to.

At the very back of the manual there is a list of preset songs.
Is it possible there are some built in demo songs you can practice with?
Posted by: kalpazan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/13/09 12:25 PM

Manuals can be downloaded from this address:

http://support.casio.com/manuallist.php?rgn=5&cid=008
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/13/09 02:09 PM

Nilalette:
My PX-575 has three demo songs loaded that can be played along with, although, there doesn't seem to be a way to lower the volume when the demo songs play as I can with accompaniment which has a setting for volume. You can however, play along, it's just the demo song is louder than whatever voice you are trying to play along with.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/13/09 04:54 PM

Thanks for the link to the manual.

Mike Martin, the marketing director for Casio, posts on the musicplayer.com web site.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/14/09 01:07 AM

New video from Musik-Schmidt for the PX 330 smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpX9Etxwtc

Short translation: Piano Sounds=super, Keyboard=super, case, notesholder & pedal= poor quality, same for sounds except piano, e-piano and bass

If you know other reviews from Olaf, you can see he enjoys playing the PX-330. He said overall "Great sounds, polyphony & keyboard, and thats the most important thing if you are looking for a DP, if you are looking for other sounds than piano sounds you should probably look for a keyboard"
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/14/09 02:11 PM

Hi guys, Mike Martin from Casio posted an answer on the "other" new PX thread that's been up for a few months, so that might be a place to post questions on features.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/15/09 06:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Acoustic Dave
Rec'd my PX 130 last night and have only set it up, so I can only say so far it looks great! I ended up buying the "Stage Essentials" package from Kraft Music, which includes the double-X stand, sustain pedal (to replace the cheap switch pedal that comes with the 130) and a Privia carrying case.

Just an fyi, it came with the AC adaptor, sustain switch pedal and song book with the music for the 60 songs built into the demo. The DP offers the option to cut out the left or right hand of the demo music, so I'm looking forward to learning those pieces one hand at a time!

Another piece of software I'm looking at is the Mac iLife '09 version of GarageBand which now offers downable Piano Lessons for free (looks like there are about 10 lessons in total, starting out easy and ending up with how to play the Blues!), and then for a price, you can also download lessons from artists on how to play songs they made famous (Norah Jones, Ryan Tedder of One Republic, Sara Bareilles, etc.)


How do you like the stand that came with it? I'm debating getting an X stand or the one that goes with it. And how do you like the carrying case?

When you get Garage Band would you post your reaction? I have a PC but I want to know just in case.
Posted by: marimorimo

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/15/09 09:04 AM

Oops, I wanted to edit my entry but it seems I pressed the wrong thread so this is now posted on 2 threads. My apologies! I got confused because the titles of the 2 threads about the new Casios are so similar! crazy

I just came back from the mall and the Casio showroom. I'm friends with the Casio salesguy and he let me try out the new models and even gave me the only(!) brochure in the store. I was surprised they already have the new PX-730 on display and that's what I tried out. (I was expecting new models to come slowly in my country). The changes aren't drastic enough to warrant an upgrade for someone who owns the previous generation's DP, but the improvements are nice. Some highlights:

- I thought the keys felt more responsive and less sluggish. The first few weeks that I owned my PX-720, I thought the keys were somewhat sluggish, but I don't notice that anymore nowadays (I guess I adapted?).

- The heavy key weight was still there, but somehow they felt easier to press in the PX-730. I think the key return is also a tad faster.

- It has a USB port which is a feature I wish my PX-720 had.

- The first thing I noticed was that the keys vibrate. They don't in the PX-720 because the speakers are detached below the keyboard and the feeling was weird at the start. Actually I'm not sure where the speakers for the PX-730 are located.

- I thought the tone was good but nothing to rave about. I can't compare it with the older one because it was noisy at the mall. The electronic piano setting is horrible IMO.

- According to the brochure, the PX-830, Celviano AP-220, AP-420, and AP-620 are coming soon. (But they weren't in the store yet).

- The PX-830 has an interesting cover which opens up and doubles as a music rack (at least that's what it looks like from the pictures). I'd get the PX-830 just for that - the music rack runs the whole length of the piano so you can place a lot of sheet music there! I'm not a fan of the PX-720/730 music rack which looks really cool but is too short and flimsy. The PX-830's music rack seems thicker and sturdier.

- One thing I found interesting was that the Celviano AP series now come with a piano bench! Piano benches are also listed as accessories in the "Privia Optional Accessories" page. I'm definitely going to get one smile


I'm planning to get another DP for weekend and holiday practice at home and was thinking of getting a Clavinova but now I'm considering the new Casios as well. The price points and features just can't be beat! I just think I'd feel a bit weird if I had both the PX-720 and PX-730 grin Maybe I should spring for the PX-830 or a Celviano instead.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/15/09 05:35 PM

Just got my PX330. First of all, it has two defective keys in the top octave and a half. They are halfway pressed down. How did this get out of the warehouse?

Anyway, I called Music 123 right away, but told them I wanted to try it briefly to decide if I'm going to replace it or just return it for a refund.

So, I just played it and did a side by side comparison with the YPG 635, which only has stereo sampling versus the 4 layer sampling of the PX. Through the built in speakers, the YPG is much better to my ears. It's a warmer richer sound, but doesn't have the volume of the PX. Through headphones, the PX sounds much better than on speakers, but I still slightly prefer the YPG.

Both have 2 good piano sounds. The touch on the YPG is much lighter, and it feels more graded to me, the difference in the bass weight being more noticeable. I like the high and low notes much better, while I thought the PX did a little better mid range.

As far as the rest of the sounds, the YPG is way, way better in terms of quantity and quality. It has many more voices. The PX has an organ voice and then an option for picking 3 "shades". The YPG has many organ voices, same with electric piano and all the rest.


So I'm sending back the PX. The portability is fantastic, I can easily carry the PX, the UPS guy had it tucked under one arm. It's got the outputs for audio. The set up is more convenient, with the 2 headphone jacks on the side instead of the back, and the music stand is way closer, so I could read music more easily than on the YPG.

Which is more realistic compared to an acoustic? I can't say for sure, but I think the decay is slightly more like an acoustic on the YPG and on speakers it sounds more "real." Ultimately, that's not that important to me right now.

I haven't messed with the recording capabilities. I paid $539 for the PX and $739 for the YPG, including stand and a free bench.

So for me, there aren't enough advantages to keeping the PX, since I'm not ready to be playing gigs yet. I might have kept it longer to play with it, but given the 2 broken keys, it'll go straight back.

At least I feel really good about my YPG purchase now, the only drawbacks being the heaviness at 39 lbs v. 25 lbs and the lack of "real" audio outputs.
Posted by: btcomm

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/15/09 09:39 PM

I had seen a short video demonstration (a NAMM show in the Yamaha section) of the YPG-635 when it first came out and the tech demonstrating it stated that more than half of the YPG's total wave rom was dedicated to its Grand Piano sound so I can understand that it would be a very decent sounding sample. I think it might have sounded as good or better than my Roland FP-4 piano sound -- which costs almost twice as much as the YPG. You probably can't go wrong with keeping it unless you want to pay 5 times as much for a lot of furniture (CLP, HP, etc.) without a great improvement in sound.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 12:46 AM

Originally Posted By: btcomm
I had seen a short video demonstration (a NAMM show in the Yamaha section) of the YPG-635 when it first came out and the tech demonstrating it stated that more than half of the YPG's total wave rom was dedicated to its Grand Piano sound so I can understand that it would be a very decent sounding sample. I think it might have sounded as good or better than my Roland FP-4 piano sound -- which costs almost twice as much as the YPG. You probably can't go wrong with keeping it unless you want to pay 5 times as much for a lot of furniture (CLP, HP, etc.) without a great improvement in sound.


Well, I'm not interested in furniture, it was really the portability and the audio outputs I wanted, and a music stand closer to my poor eyes, which are really decorative rather than functional.

I do think the PX is a really good option, but I'm spoiled by the huge selection of voices on the YPG, I don't know how they turned out so well, You haven't played scales until you play them with choral voices, it just cracks me up. 3hearts
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 01:03 AM

Bummer Nikalette,
Was the box damaged at all in the area where the keys are? Maybe it happened in shipment?
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 03:28 AM

@Nikalette

I send my DGX back to get a PX 330, I miss the connectivity at the DGX and I think the volume over the speaker is for piano sounds to low. And what I've heard in vids the PX 330 also have the better Piano sound, and thats more important to me. The PX 330 should arrive within the next days, so I'm looking forward to it.

I compared DGX vs. 320 at our music store in town and in my opinion te PX320 has the better keys. They felt more realistic than the DGX. Also the key noise from th DGX was louder, a least I don't want to complaint about this, because after all I liked the keyboard from the DGX.

If I need later more sounds, I think I'll connect the PX 330 to the PC or get an expander for more sounds.
Posted by: Ludwig van Bilge

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 03:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Nikalette
As far as the rest of the sounds, the YPG is way, way better in terms of quantity and quality.

Bad luck about the bad keys. You've been having all kinds of piano issues. But I'm glad to know that the Yamaha YPG compares well to the Casio because I've been looking at getting one. Portability is not an issue for me.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 03:41 AM

New vid from Musik-Schmidt for the PX-330 (english)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSGEcOy2GP8&feature=sub
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 11:28 AM

No the box was fine. The keys were halfway depressed. It could have happened in shipping from some springs being knocked loose.
Posted by: SnowTown

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 08:18 PM

Does the px130 have the same action/keyboard as the px330 or px730? Or even the px830 for that matter.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 08:24 PM

The PX 130 and PX 330 are the same. I don't know about the rest.
Posted by: Geoffk

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/16/09 09:29 PM

As far as I know, all Casio models have the same action (and the same basic piano sample as well). I know that was true with the 120 series and I believe it's true now as well. The differences are in the case/pedals, additional voices (and features, e.g. rhythms) and speakers/amp.
Posted by: DragonPianoPlayer

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 06:07 AM

Nikalette,

There are no springs in the Casio Privia series, unless the action has changed considerably in the new models. Under each key is a hammer. When you push down on the key, the hammer is lifted up. When you release the key, gravity pulls the hammer down and the key is lifted back into position by this motion.
Posted by: Tidal

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 08:47 AM

I am looking for a cheap DP with a good touch(effect) that resembles the acoustic's (or as possible as it can be).
With this issue, would anyone compares this Casio's new series (new effect with 3 sensors) to the Yamaha's GHS, GH and GH3 ? Regardless to the sounds that they make.

Thank you
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Geoffk
As far as I know, all Casio models have the same action (and the same basic piano sample as well). I know that was true with the 120 series and I believe it's true now as well. The differences are in the case/pedals, additional voices (and features, e.g. rhythms) and speakers/amp.


To clarify, the new PX-130, PX-330, PX-730, PX-830 all have a new keyboard action. They also have a new four layer piano sample. Also, the keys on the PX-830 will be made of a different material that will actually have some texture to it to more closely represent the feel of an ivory keyboard.

-Mike Martin
Casio America, Inc.
Posted by: Tidal

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 09:44 AM

Thanks

Actually, now I am looking at PX-130 and CP33 (I want to have P-155 but an import and a distribution to various music stores are not conducted yet).

I have played CP33 and the touch is acceptable.
For PX-130, I don't have a chance to play right now.

In my country, CP33 now costs around $1500 and PX-130 costs $830.

If the touch of PX-130 is better, that will be great and I will save money for my family. But if the Privia has an inferior touch to the Yamaha's GH, that's it.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 11:26 AM

I havent played a PX 130 till now, but imo you shuld also take a look to the technique specs. The PX 130 has 128 polyphonic sound, instead of 64 at the CP33.
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: Geoffk
As far as I know, all Casio models have the same action (and the same basic piano sample as well). I know that was true with the 120 series and I believe it's true now as well. The differences are in the case/pedals, additional voices (and features, e.g. rhythms) and speakers/amp.


To clarify, the new PX-130, PX-330, PX-730, PX-830 all have a new keyboard action. They also have a new four layer piano sample. Also, the keys on the PX-830 will be made of a different material that will actually have some texture to it to more closely represent the feel of an ivory keyboard.

-Mike Martin
Casio America, Inc.


Thank you very much for clarifying that, Mike.
Posted by: marimorimo

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 01:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin

To clarify, the new PX-130, PX-330, PX-730, PX-830 all have a new keyboard action. They also have a new four layer piano sample. Also, the keys on the PX-830 will be made of a different material that will actually have some texture to it to more closely represent the feel of an ivory keyboard.

-Mike Martin
Casio America, Inc.


Thanks a lot for the info, though it leaves me confused because the brochure that I have lists it as '3 steps dynamic sample' (or something like that, I don't have the brochure at the moment). I interpreted it to mean 3 layers of piano samples, is that different? I also find it weird that the different material used for the PX-830 keys isn't cited at all in the brochure. Are the specifications different depending on the country? And will the new ivory feel keys be used for the Celviano line as well?
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 02:10 PM

@marimorimo

It has 4 layer sound and 3 sensors!
Posted by: DragonPianoPlayer

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 02:23 PM

Tidal,

Trying to decide which dp feels more like a piano is a very subjective thing. I think the Casio Privia models win hands down in the under $1000 (US) price range, but others people prefer other models. My first impression of the CP33 is that it had a better feel than the Privias, however, I would need to spend a lot of time playing the CP33 to really say which one I liked better. Note that I learned on an old, unregulated upright as a kid, so the heavier action of the Privia feels right to me. Someone who wants a lighter action might prefer the Yamaha touch.

Rich
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 02:31 PM

I'm not familiar with the CP 33, but my YPG has GH action.

I didn't notice very much of a difference between the PX 330 and the YPG 635 action, but I didn't spend as much time as I would have testing them side by side because I'm returning the PX. I think it would be a matter of personal preference.

The keys are smoother on the YPG, but I think for realism I might give a slight edge to the PX.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 03:52 PM

Tidal,
I recently compared the PX130 with the Yahama P155 and it's earlier in this same thread. The P-155 has GH-Graded Hammer Action, which is better than what is used in the YPG 635 if you have played one of those. The action between the P-155 and Casio PX-130 are different. I think the 130 is stiffer, but very responsive. Both DP's have a 4 level piano sample, with 128 levels of polyphony and Casio has done a nice job revamping it's grand piano sound in the 130. I think it is every bit as good as the P-155. Whether you like it or not comes down to personal choice. Be sure and bring headphones with you when you compare any digital piano as the sound is better when listening through headphones. The on board speakers are OK but not the best. By the way, Casio uses a 1/8" (like what you find on an ipod) headphone jack rather than a 1/4" jack used on the P-155. Considering what the 130 offers in terms of price and functionality, it is very nice.
Posted by: SnowTown

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Nikalette
I'm not familiar with the CP 33, but my YPG has GH action.

I didn't notice very much of a difference between the PX 330 and the YPG 635 action, but I didn't spend as much time as I would have testing them side by side because I'm returning the PX. I think it would be a matter of personal preference.

The keys are smoother on the YPG, but I think for realism I might give a slight edge to the PX.


The YPG635 has the GHS action. I had the YDP213 which has GHS as well. I thought the GHS actions were way too light and just feel flat/plasticky... Does the PX330's action really feel similar? I'm under the impression that the Casio's actions are generally heavier than the GHS and the GH (aka GHE) with the GH/GHE action being noticably heavier/"better"/more reponsive than the GHS. I had experince with the YDP223 which has the GH/GHE action and that felt heavier/more realistic.

Is the keyboard action of the newer Casios (X30s) lighter than the GH/GHE?
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 04:44 PM

I compared the action fom PX-320 and DGX direct and thought the PX 320 is better - so if 330 has an improvement, it is obv that the PX 330 has the better action^^
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 05:19 PM

SnowTown
I agree with you that GHS feels light. I did not care for it when I sampled a YPG 635, and the action was also noisy. I perferred the action on the Casio and would be surprised if the 330 has light action like the Yahama. I agree with BanditHH, that the Privia has better touch than the GHS Yahama uses. I haven't played a 330 yet, but have played two PX-130's. The action feels close to the PX120/320 in my opinion. Comparing it to a P-155 recently, I thought the PX-130 had more resistance, but was solid and responsive.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 06:27 PM

I had tried the PX 120/320 before and thought the action was too heavy, it was one of the reasons I got the YPG 635. I don't notice noisiness on the action. I think the 330 action is slightly better than the YPG feels more realistic, but I thought it's lighter than the previous Privia action.

If action was the only issue, then the Privia 130/330 would be better than the YPG, but I would pick the YPG over the 120/320 because they were too heavy for me.
Posted by: DragonPianoPlayer

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 06:57 PM

The Yamaha YPG235 and YPG535 are what Yamaha calls Graded Soft Touch - it is a synth based action. Of this line, only the YPG 635 with Graded Hammer Standard (GHS) is truly a weighted action DP.

Rich
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: BanditHH
I interpreted it to mean 3 layers of piano samples, is that different?


Marimorimo:
I believe the confusion here is related to the number of times the original sound was sampled when recorded-4x. It's similar to the way CD players used to be rated when they came out. Some sampled sound at 2x, 4x, 8x, etc. The higher the number the better the reproduction/quality.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 10:13 PM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Originally Posted By: BanditHH
I interpreted it to mean 3 layers of piano samples, is that different?


Marimorimo:
I believe the confusion here is related to the number of times the original sound was sampled when recorded-4x. It's similar to the way CD players used to be rated when they came out. Some sampled sound at 2x, 4x, 8x, etc. The higher the number the better the reproduction/quality.


Actually the piano sample in the new Privias was recorded at 4 different dynamic levels. As an example: p, mp, mf, f.
These samples are then triggered based on the key velocity. The new engine in the PX-x30 also interpolates the sound between velocity layers so you get smooth transitions, not switches as you change from a soft dynamic to a louder one.

On top of this the new PX-x30's have a new Tri-Sensor keyboard. This ensures that every nuance and detail of what you are playing gets delivered to the sound engine. It also is more effective for capturing faster repeated notes than previous models.
Posted by: DoctorMusic

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 10:23 PM

If anyone is interested I posted a review of the PX-330 on the Guitar Center site.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Casio-PX-330-88-Key-Digital-Keyboard-582722-i1466868.gc
Posted by: DoctorMusic

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 10:25 PM

Do you have a link for the "other PX thread"? I'm new hear and having trouble navigating.


Doc
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/17/09 10:36 PM

Mike Martin,
Appreciate the explanation on the sound sampling. And yes, the new PX models are definately more responsive when notes are pressed. I notice the difference from the older Privia I have.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/09 02:34 AM

@DoctorMusic

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

@MikeMartin

When is the PX-330 video on youtube? smile
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/09 05:41 AM

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1228336


Here's the other thread
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/21/09 11:16 PM

An online review -

http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/privia-nx-130-real-piano-sound-in-26-pounds/

The PX-330 review should be in the October issue of Keyboard Magazine
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/22/09 03:44 AM

Is the PX 575 getting an upgrade?
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/22/09 10:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Nikalette
Is the PX 575 getting an upgrade?


With the addition of the pitch wheel, display, and 180 rhythms, the PX-330 has many of the features of the PX-575 and more. I can't comment on any other product development at this time, but if there are specific features you're looking for, please let us know (probably appropriate for another thread).
Posted by: Vincent L.

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/22/09 12:46 PM

Mike,

I have a hard time understanding the difference between the PX-830 and the AP420.
Both are lacking the portability of the px130/330, and they share the same specs. So they seem redundant. I am more attracted to the PX-830 so far -
Couldn't Casio spend more money improving the other models and their accessories (like the 3-pedals bar) instead of having 2 models offering the exact same features?
Or did I miss something in the Casio marketing here?

Thanks,

Vincent
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/22/09 01:46 PM

Vincent,
While I don't have the specifications in front of me, the style of the two units is very different. The AP-420 is very traditional, while the PX-830 has a more contemporary and modern design. I think the designs are different enough that each product has a place in the market.

In regards to the pedal issue which I've seen a few times on this forum, I've actually done the research with our service and returns departments to find out more and have not been able to find reports of these issues. As I stated in another thread, in over a year in this position at Casio America, I've never had a single call from a dealer that had a customer with a problem. If you are having an issue, I urge you to contact our customer service department. https://www.casio.com/support/contactus/contact
Posted by: DoctorMusic

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/22/09 08:45 PM

Mike, you are welcome. I have a few question for or anyone else that can help me. Is there a way to switch pedal polarity on the PX-330? Also, what pedals work with it besides the one that comes with it. Also, there is some type of odd connection under the PX-330 which says pedal. What kind of pedal is that for?

Thanks in advance.

Doc
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/22/09 09:13 PM

just jumping in here....the pedal connector on the bottom is for the optional 3 pedal unit (SP-32) (see pg E7 of manual) ----not sure but i think the polarity would be adjusted on the pedal if needed. i just got the m-audio pedal (about $20. on amazon) and it has a polarity switch but i was able to use it as is on the PX330.
Posted by: marimorimo

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/23/09 01:22 AM

Thanks a lot for the clarification, galaxy4t and Mike Martin! I did notice that the keys in the new PX-n30 models somehow felt more responsive.

I was like a kid in a candy store when I had chance to try out a lot of DPs when I visited Japan last weekend. There was a PX-830 on display which I absolutely loved. The new look and material of the keys felt so different! I didn't think changing the key material would make much of a difference, but after playing on the PX-830, I couldn't help feeling a sharp drop in my playing enjoyment when I went back to the PX-730. I like the music stand which doubles as a key cover as well, though the actual music rack area was smaller than I expected. The high-gloss black finish that scheduled to be released on November in Japan looks very sleek.

It's hard to find DPs in my country so I took the chance to try the Korgs, Clavinovas, Rolands, and Casios available. I've only ever tried Casios before so I was worried that I was missing a lot by not having the higher-end models, but with my beginner amateur ability, I felt no compelling reason to ditch my Casio DP. Unfortunately the store was very noisy and I didn't have headphones on to make a more accurate comparison, but overall, I felt the Casio DPs competed very well with the other brands especially on the price-value factor.
Posted by: crusadar

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/23/09 02:43 AM

-
Thanks marimorimo for the review on the PX-830, I can't wait to try one out, when I tried the PX-800 I felt everything was right except for the feel of the keyboard, if that's improved I'll buy one. Here it seems it will sell for just under £1000 were as the Roland DP 990 I was considering would cost me £1400...a big difference in price.
-
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/23/09 07:42 PM

Doctor Music,
As Lima said the connector underneath is for the SP32 Casio 3 pedal unit. It adapts to the wooden stands Casio makes. It is made of plastic and there is some concern over how it holds up on these forums. I had a PX 800 that I never took out of the box and returned for concerns over the pedal and the keybed used in this model. There are other pedals that will work with Casio. The SP2 by m-audio works fine. There are other threads about pedals for Casio on this forum. The most recent one was regarding pedals for the PX-320 in early summer.
Posted by: DoctorMusic

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 01:07 AM

I absolutely LOVE using the Yamaha sustain pedal that has a rubber base which swings out to step on with your heel. This pedal (FC-4?) doesn't move when you use it. But it doesn't work with the PX330 apparently. Does anyone know of any other single pedal unit that doesn't move forward when used? Or is there an adapter I can buy or make so the Yamaha pedal will work with the PX330? If not, I am thinking my tech guy can do a workaround with the polarity. Maybe even put in a polarity switch.
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 01:53 AM

One time i think i was accidentally pushing down the sustain pedal( a cheap one on a yamaha) when i turned the keyboard on and the polarity was apparently reversed that way, on all the time until i pushed it down....maybe that would work. Don't want to advise though in case this might mess something up.

just got the m-audio pedal for about $20 on amazon. It has a polarity switch but on the 330 works as is anyway....seems nice and doesn't seem to be slipping.
Posted by: Eternal Music Student

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 06:18 AM

OMG

Hi, Mike Martin. The frailness of the Casio three-pedal unit has been posted upon umpteen times on this here forum, as well as others.

Most people today assume that when something breaks when used as intended it's due to "made in China" syndrome, therefore they aren't likely to ship the unit to some place to get it "fixed", especially when one short look at the piece reveals fatal unfixable flaws.

Maybe this new Privia has a reinforced pedal unit, unlike all the previous models. If so, explain how it's better.

P.S. I don't mean to sound rude--thanks for checking in here so often.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 10:54 AM

Eternal Music Student,

If I had broken SP-30s here at the office or a single complaint from a dealer, I would gladly be the first one to contact our R&D in Japan speak to them about the issue. I have seen a few posts here on this forum, usually by the same individuals regarding the SP30 pedals. Obviously I'm very sorry that they've had an issue, but based on the number of units sold and without any other reports from dealers I suspect that these are unfortunate but isolated incidents. If any customer is having ANY issue with a Casio product they should do the following (in this order):

1) Contact Casio service.
https://www.casio.com/support/contactus/contact

2) Contact their local service center
http://www.casio.com/support/musicservicecenters

3) Only after steps 1 and 2 above, send me a PM through this forum.

Take care,
Posted by: kalpazan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 02:11 PM

Just got my PX-330BK, the CS-67BK stand and the SP-32 pedal unit. I put that all together in an hour; it is real easy and straightforward. The only issue being that I was unable to hide the pedal unit cable completely. The assembly is stable yet easy to move around if needed.

Must say that the left-most key was half way pressed. I pushed it a bit, it released immediately and started to work as expected. All other keys were fine.

As already said keyboard is excellent and sound is good enough. Volume control is not that sensitive I think (my personal preference of course).

Could not get why on all that space the LED is so small?!? A little wider display could have made it much more usable.

That's for now...
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 02:52 PM

I got my PX 330 today, and I really like the key action, it feels fantastic. I also like the piano sounds. The other sounds are a little bit disappointing, but not very important to me, because I wanted to have a DP with a good key action and brilliant piano sounds. And I also like the small design, but in the future Casio should think about a metal case. OK plastic is lighter, but metal is more solid, I think the PX 330 looks not that it is for stage purposes

I think Casio should spend a better note holder, this one looks like cheap crap and doenst fit (design) with the very good design of the PX 330, the note holder from the PX 730 looks much better. I also think that Casio should spend a better pedal unit for that price!

I was wondering that the PX 330 just supports 2GB SD cards, I know 2GB are more than I would ever needed, but Hello, wake up Casio, we have already 16GB cards, and the smallest card I had was 4GB frown

@Mike Martin

I saw in the prospects that the PX 330 should also have a learn function, for left and right hand, and also together. BUT I found nothing about it in the user manual. So I'm wondering, is there a learn function implemented or not^^ Also not very important to me, but if Casio advertise this feature it should be included wink If the function is included, please tell me how i can find it laugh

P.S. I had the Yamaha DGX 630 before, I returned it because it had a defect speaker. So I decided to invest a bit more and get a better key action and of course a better designed DP wink. No doubt the design of the DGX 630 is horrible, but it offers also some nice features that I miss now. F.E. the bigger display (which shows also music sheets and lyrics) and the better sounds. In my opinion the PX 330 spots the same market like the DGX 630, so take a look at this feature +metal case +better note holder +better pedal unit, I would love to see them in a PX 340 wink
Posted by: Piano JOMan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 03:04 PM

Wow, the PX-330 is a popular piano. I just ordered the home bundle from Kraft Music and they told me that it was backordered and in their next shipment of 20, they've already sold 12 of them. Well, now 13... I needed a piano my kids could learn on and was very tempted to go with the PX 130. Ultimately, I chose the 330 because
1) Better speakers (2 way),
2) More songs can be recorded,
3) Line out, in case the speakers still aren't good enough and I want to feed it into my own amp, and
4) The SD card slot. The SD card slot almost convinced me all by itself. I think that's a great feature and I'm shocked at the lack of that feature on other DPs. It'll be much more convenient to transfer songs, rhythms, and such between computer and piano via the SD card than trying to move the DP and hook it up to the computer via USB. And a 2 GB card is probably large enough to store every MIDI file I can find, but if not then I can simply swap cards depending on the occasion.

None local to try out, so only the youtube demos and reviews to go on. But I'm eagerly awaiting my new toy.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: BanditHH

@Mike Martin
I saw in the prospects that the PX 330 should also have a learn function, for left and right hand, and also together. BUT I found nothing about it in the user manual. So I'm wondering, is there a learn function implemented or not^^ Also not very important to me, but if Casio advertise this feature it should be included wink If the function is included, please tell me how i can find it laugh


Please let me know where you saw this feature listed. The PX-330 does not have this capability, although the PX-130 does.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 04:55 PM

German prospect "Elctronical Musicinstruments _Digitalpianos 2009/2010

overview technical features

Learn function:

Part ON/OFF
/learn part
left hand, right hand
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 05:06 PM

I've been looking for a keyboard that has the measure by measure learning function that is offered on the less expensive Casios, like the WK500 and the CDP 200R.
Posted by: Mike_Martin

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 05:30 PM

I think I may have found what you are referring to, in the PDF catalog that Casio Europe has on their site. I believe there is a mistake in that catalog and I have alerted them about the error. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Casio American doesn't have that catalog because a few of those models won't be available here until the spring.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/24/09 07:54 PM

I have the printed version wink So maybe they should check that too wink
Posted by: kalpazan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/07/09 12:29 PM

Sometimes, on a very rare occasions PX330 will produce very strange GP sound when turned on. I am pretty sure I do not touch any keys while it is booting. Turn off and then back on fixes the problem. Does anyone else experience this issue?

Then, does anyone know how to download the demo tunes as a MIDI files? The first one is especially good and I would like to study it.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/07/09 04:47 PM

@kalpazan

No, my 330 works fine smile Just wondering the first key is a little bit higher than the other keys, same at yours?
Posted by: kalpazan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/07/09 11:10 PM

@BanditHH

All keys are flat here. Although, as I wrote before, the first one was half way pressed when I received the piano. Pushed it and it released and now works and sits ok.
Posted by: Piano JOMan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/08/09 06:00 PM

When my 330 came, all of the keys were down. They were held down with a long blue cellophane tape, and removing it they all popped up to the same level. Did yours come that way? Maybe they are shipping them a new way now.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/09/09 03:18 AM

I had no tape on the keys^^
Posted by: kalpazan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/09/09 01:55 PM

No tape on the keys here either. Apparently they took some measures to avoid key corruption while in transport.
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/09/09 04:44 PM

The one I purchased had no tape on the keys. Two of the higher keys were pushed down, and they stayed down, so I had to return the keyboard.
Posted by: slay65

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/09/09 09:11 PM

Blue tape on my PX330. Kept the keys held down.
Posted by: kalpazan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/09 12:35 AM

I bet those with the blue tape are manufactured in Japan. My one is probably assembled in Germany - no tape, higher price :-)
Posted by: Swamp Crocodile

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/09 09:53 PM

No tape on mine, all keys ok (for a month now)
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/09 01:23 AM

i thought they were all 'assembled' in china.
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/09 12:32 PM

I thought Casio was a Japanese company? Is it Chinese?
Posted by: limavady

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/09 12:40 PM

I don't think that has much to do these days with where the stuff is made or assembled. I think most guitars like yamahas and other makes are made in china; used to be korea or taiwan more but now china for the most part. Same with bicycles like specialized; i forgot what maker of american bikes still made them here but the vast majority are made in china. oops wrong forum! But just like all the stuff that for years was 'made in japan'-at that time it was american companies just having their stuff made there. ---At first i thought your post was a joke but not funny enough so i don't think you were kidding right?
Posted by: michael68

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/19/09 02:15 AM

Hi all,
Having used the Casio PL-40R previously, I am very much impressed by how realistic the sound and the feel is. Unfortunately, I sold it and now, the good old memories of playing on that comes back to me. I hope the PX330 will be far more superior than the PL-40R, which is able to allow me to store up to 10 songs.
Does anyone have any experience in using the sequencer to compose songs? Any problems with compatibility with Win XP? Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Michael
Posted by: Terri Moore

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/21/09 03:22 PM

Hi guys, I'm hoping to buy one of these new Casio Privias. I would like to buy the Casio 130, 330 or 730, I havn't decided it yet. But those who have brought either of these, can you please tell me if the keys make the 'clacking noise'?

Mr Mike Martin, maybe you could tell us if this clacking exists on the new Privia X30's, or whether clacking noises maybe an issue later on? Thanks alot in advance, I'm hoping to make Casio privia my first DP

Kind regards,
Terri
Posted by: Swamp Crocodile

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/21/09 10:20 PM

Hi Terry

My two cents on clacking issue :-)

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1283284/Searchpage/1/Main/93328/Words/clacking/Search/true/Re:%20buying%20my%20first%20DP.html#Post1283284
Posted by: Martin C. Doege

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/22/09 12:13 PM

Great, but please make links clickable, BSC:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ml#Post1283284

The url tag is your friend. smile
Posted by: Nikalette

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/24/09 06:15 PM

I didn't notice an issue with the clacking, but the Privias are sure coming out with a lot of malfunctioning key issues. Doesn't seem to be a problem with returns or exchanges, but it would give me pause about the quality control. Maybe it'll be fixed in the next wave...
Posted by: Swamp Crocodile

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/24/09 10:08 PM

hi please how do I do that (the url tag?)
I noticed when I did the post it did not show as a link
thanks in advance - BSC (short for my original screen name BigSwampCrocodile, which was too much to type)
Posted by: SazanEyes

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/02/09 12:30 PM

I got a PX 330 about two weeks ago, and because this forum was so helpful when I was choosing a DP, I wanted to add my review.

I checked out the PX 330 at my local Guitar Center and was able to compare it to the Yamaha P-155 and various higher-priced models. I mainly wanted to compare the various actions. Honestly, after reading various reviews online, I was expecting a greater difference between the actions. I can see how some people say the Casio actions are slightly "sluggish" or heavy, or that the Yamaha has a greater variation in key weights with their graded action. However, unless you're comparing two keyboards side by side, these differences are very minor. After trying the Casio, I thought the action felt great and the piano sound was also very good, so I immediately decided that I didn't need to spend any more for a DP, especially considering all the features of the PX 330. I haven't had a chance to compare the Casio with my parents' acoustic upright yet, but it's certainly good enough for me to practice and, more importantly, enjoy playing it. My advice to anyone reading these online reviews is to try the various DPs yourself if possible and not get too wrapped up in the various details you read about. All the weighted actions I tried seemed both very good and very similar, so the Casio is an incredible bargain. Also, given the rate of improvement in technology, I figure if I ever "outgrow" the Casio, at that time the equivalent of a V-Piano should be available for much less money. (I consider myself an intermediate-level pianist.)

I ordered from an online retailer to take advantage of a "package" discount, and I also got the Casio stand and three-pedal option. The stand is great, and although the pedals seem a little flimsy, they've worked well so far. They PX 330 came with the blue tape holding the keys down, and everything was well-packaged with no damage. I agree that most of the non-piano sounds in the PX 330 are rather cheesy, and I really wish the harpsichord was better. The main reason I got the PX 330 instead of the PX 130 was for the MIDI connectivity, but so far I've been too busy practicing piano pieces to hook it up to a PC. I did load some MIDI files onto an SD card and play them through the DP. It worked, but I think the MIDI files used a weird GM sound instead of one of the standard piano sounds, so it didn't sound that great. All of the piano sounds are good, but I've been using the Grand Piano Classic sound the most.
Posted by: LaoGong

Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 11/09/09 05:07 AM

This is a repost of my personal message to Mike Martin and would like everyone's comment on my concern.


Hello Mike,

I just sold my PX-320 and ordered the new PX-330. Then I realized that the excellent 60 built-in songs and the songbook have been removed from PX-330 after reading this forum. This makes me extremely unhappy because I enjoyed them a lot and they are great for learning.

Is it possible to download the songs and the songbook from Casio website so that at least we can upload some of the favorite songs to the piano as user songs?

Or as a make up measure, I highly recommend Casio to distribute a CD-ROM disc which contains the MIDI files of the songs, and the PDF file of the songbook.

I will return my purchase if there is no way for me to get the songs and the book back, which will be a great regret.

I don't know whether you can represent Casio or not. If not, could you give me a Casio contact or forward my concerns to Casio? Thank you very much!

rhgong
Posted by: Vincent L.

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 11/09/09 01:26 PM

About the 60 classical pieces in our PX-320 ... most of them are classical music from the past centuries and you can find legal transcriptions of them on the Internet.
I enjoy the book provided by Casio and the transcriptions are good. But you can find even better transcriptions of these classical pieces if you google them with key words like "free piano score".

Thanks,

VL
Posted by: LaoGong

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 11/09/09 04:14 PM

Thanks for your response.

I assume that the built-in songs in PX-320 were carefully selected or made for Casio DPs (correct me if I was wrong). I tried some downloaded MIDI files on PX-320. None of them sounds as realistic as the built-in songs, and a lot of them didn't even arrange the piano parts in correct channels so I couldn't use the lesson function on the piano.

If you have a link or links of HIGH-QUALITY free MIDI files and scores, could you please share them with us? Thanks again.
Posted by: Vincent L.

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 11/09/09 11:34 PM

If you go to the Adult beginner forum, you will find links like those:
legal scores


My preferred one is this one for now:
Mutopia list of scores and midi files for piano
Posted by: LaoGong

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 11/10/09 03:24 AM

Thank you very much for the links. I feel a little bit better now because at least I found some of my favorites from your links, e.g. Nocturne Op.9 No.2 grin Cannot wait my PX-330 to try them ...
Posted by: Doolittle

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/10/09 02:54 PM

Hello, I have an strong interest in the PX330. There is not one local that I can see or play in person, and so I turn to this forum. I have read these boards and watched YouTube, etc. I am convinced that the piano sound and the piano itself is fine, though I am wondering how the other sounds are? Sounds like strings, guitars, harp, flute, oboe, bassoon, etc.? I am the current owner of a fine Yamaha P120 and I also wonder how the PX330 would compare? The PX330 has more features I would like (SD Card slot, more sounds) and so I am thinking of making the switch. I bought the P120 long distance and had it shipped to me without ever playing it...it turned out well! I love it. The PX330, though, has my attention right now. Any owners of the PX330 got a good word for me? Thanks.
Posted by: LaoGong

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/10/09 04:39 PM

I assume that PX-330 has the same action and feeling as PX-730, maybe PX-730 has better sound as it has larger speakers underbeneath the piano.

You can try PX-730 at costco.ca. It is available at $749 (or $799? not so sure) in the local store in Kingston Ontario. I tried it last week, felt that the keys are little bit lighter than the PX-320 I just sold.
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 11/10/09 07:05 PM

Do you have a MIDI editor for your computer? Most of them will allow you to change channel asignments, transpose, cut and paste and so on. Garage band, that comes with all Apple computers can do his and more but there is software for Windows PCs too.

Lots of places to get MIDI files. I just got some sheet music from virtualsheetmusic.com and they give you a MIDI file with the sheet music. The sheet music and midi are made from the same master data file so they match up note per note.
Posted by: LaoGong

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 11/10/09 09:16 PM

Editing a MIDI file seems too much for me. However I found the link you provided is awesome! Thanks for sharing the info.
Posted by: Doolittle

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/12/09 01:48 PM

Laogong...Thanks for the reply, but I am not familiar with the PX730 so much, and the nearest Costco is about 2,000 kilometers away for me! I am in the Yukon. The PX330 is the only one that interests me of the new line of Privias. I would love to try one in person, but I am unable to.

Any owners of the PX330 willing to give a review on the other sounds (strings, flutes, harp, oboe, etc.)? Thanks.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/13/09 03:53 AM

imho the other sounds are quit disappointing. All piano sounds are brilliant, also some of the e-piano sounds. But the other sounds are poor. I had before the Yamaha DGX 630 and this one had better sounds (except the piano sounds).

If you play a SMF sometime they sound like from a cheap soundcard at your PC.

Why do I still prefer the PX 330? Because I wanted to have a DP with good piano sounds and a real good keyboard and connectivity, and here is the PX 330 better! IF I want more sounds I connect the PX 330 to a PC and use VST
Posted by: LaoGong

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/13/09 05:14 PM

Yukon is a mysterious place to me. Did you see polar bears often? I wish I can have one as the pet laugh

I'm a music beginner in every sense so cannot comment the quality of the tones on px-320. But the guy who purchased my px-320 is a music professional, he said the piano and string tones are very good.
Posted by: Doolittle

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/13/09 11:14 PM

It's majestic here all year round. Sorry, no Polar Bears in my area, but plenty of Black Bears and Grizzlies. Maybe I will have to ride a Grizzly down to an area where I can see the PX330 in person...if the salesman sees the Bear hitched up outside, maybe I will get a great deal.
I was looking at the PX320 as well for some time, then I saw the PX330. I love my Yamaha P120, but the Privias still interest me from afar.
Posted by: LaoGong

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/16/09 07:06 PM

Good news: PX-730 on sale at costco.ca this week!

$650 for online order, and $600 for purchase in store.

http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Product.aspx...-7-_-CasioPiano
Posted by: Tika

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 03:18 AM

Hi, We're looking for a family piano but can't seem to get our hands on a PX 830 to try it out. Can anyone tell me if the PX 330 keyboard is the same action as the PX 830 except for the ivory feel on the 830? I can get to a store with the PX 330 and the Roland F110 to compare but no one has the PX 830 which I believe from previous reviews is the PX330 with better speakers, textured keys and the console.
Posted by: marimorimo

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 03:34 AM

@ Tika: yes, all the Privias of the same generation have the same action. By the way, the keys on the 830 are "textured" in a way, but I wouldn't call it "ivory feel." The DPs with ivory feel keys (like some Rolands) have considerably more texture than the 830's keys. I'd describe the keys on the PX-830 and newer Casio Celvianos more as smooth, cream-colored. The main difference between them and the regular keys are the color and that they aren't as slippery (they're not glossy - more like fine matte).
Posted by: Quagles

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 06:04 AM

Looking for a second opinion here. I'm gonna buy a new digital piano by christmas, and there are 4 models I've pointed out. The PX 130, PX 320, PX 330, PX730.

Currently leaning towards the 330. What exactly are the major differences between these models? Is the 320 almost near identical than 330, its about same prize its just that it comes with the keyboard only unlike the 330, but the 330 isn't at all places.

How about the 130, what makes the others better buys than this? Seeing as it is quite a bit cheaper than the other models.

I've tried to read a bit about them but its a bit confusing. For me the importance lies mainly in how the keys feel and being able to hook it up on the pc with midi connectivity which I know at least the 320 and 330 has.

Some slightly confusing questions, I just don't have the opportunity to try out any of them so its hard to make a decision which feels the right for me.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Quagles
Looking for a second opinion here. I'm gonna buy a new digital piano by christmas, and there are 4 models I've pointed out. The PX 130, PX 320, PX 330, PX730.

Currently leaning towards the 330. What exactly are the major differences between these models? Is the 320 almost near identical than 330, its about same prize its just that it comes with the keyboard only unlike the 330, but the 330 isn't at all places.

How about the 130, what makes the others better buys than this? Seeing as it is quite a bit cheaper than the other models.

I've tried to read a bit about them but its a bit confusing. For me the importance lies mainly in how the keys feel and being able to hook it up on the pc with midi connectivity which I know at least the 320 and 330 has.

Some slightly confusing questions, I just don't have the opportunity to try out any of them so its hard to make a decision which feels the right for me.


Quagles,
The PX-320 is last year's model and is the equivalent to the PX-330. The difference is in the piano sample which in the 320 is 3 layer and in the 330 is 4 layer sample. You can probably get the 320 cheaper as it is discontinued. The PX-130 is the upgrade to the PX-120. They are nearly identical although they took the Midi ports off the 130 and there also are no on board rhythms like the 120 had. The 130 has a metronome. As far as the action, the new models have the third sensor to facilitate having the keys return faster. So the major differences are in the piano samples and improved keybed action. Hope this helps.
Posted by: Vincent L.

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 01:22 PM

Other differences between the PX-320, which I own, and the PX-330:
1. there is a wheel on the left side of the PX-330 - I assume it is a Pitch bend wheel, which is good to have if you use some of the addtional sounds these models offer compare to the PX-130 - I do not use these sounds, so I don't mind not having that wheel.
2. This is subjective, but I think the PX-330 looks better, more professional stage piano like, with its bigger screen and black finish.

VL
Posted by: Doolittle

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 06:11 PM

Any owners of the PX330 willing to give a review on the other sounds (strings, flutes, harp, oboe, etc.)? Thanks.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 07:16 PM

For those who ever wanted to see the inside of a PX 330.

Today I had visit from the Casio-Support, they exchanged my keyboard, a good reason to shot a photo from the open PX 330 smile

Was also funny to see the little weights at each key (sorry no photo of that).

Now my PX 330 works fine and I'm really happy with it smile




@doolittle
The only usefull sounds imho are the Piano, E-Piano, Strings, Bass and maybe the Hapsicord. The rest is from a very poor quality imho (especially GM sounds, i tried some SMF at the PX 330, they didnt sound very good frown ). The music presets are usefull if you want to be an entertainer wink
Posted by: Doolittle

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/17/09 07:42 PM

Thanks for the heads up on the other sounds on the PX330 BanditHH...I believe that I had heard that the PX320 had great sounds, and thought that the PX330 would be better or at least the same. I have a great piano sound with my Yamaha P120 already, but had hoped for more usable sounds with the PX330. Too bad, so sad.
Posted by: BanditHH

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/18/09 03:42 AM

I had the Yamaha DGX 630 before, and i think the other sounds are much bette at the DGX.

But I forget the new World Sounds, I like them, but I have nothing to compare, so I cannot tell if they are good or not, for me they sound good.

But the whole GM table is very poor, except one or two voices (Fantasy f.e.).

The GM table at the DGX was also not very good, but better than the one at a 330.
Posted by: Passion

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/23/09 06:06 PM

Well as far as anything that hasn't been said, I like my PX330. For those wondering it does work on Windows 7 64 bit just fine with software piano/anything else. My first one had an issue with one stuck key (A3) which released when I pulled up on the adjacent Bb, but I'm still getting a replacement.

Other than that it sounds and plays fine except for one caveat, which I hope (but doubt) is exclusive to mine also. I will paste from my other thread regarding the issue:

Using the default piano samples, if I press a key too slowly or lightly it will not sound whatsoever

I've remedied this by using software piano through my PC, going to velocity/set and calibrating the min and max to my midi controller. But without this I have to admit it's extremely annoying, because at times I like to play with a light touch and it not sounding limits expression in that regard. I think it would also make me unable to play with a soft touch between piano lessons on an acoustic, so I will always have to practice through my PC.

But at least this way no matter how softly or slowly I touch, it at least sounds at the lowest velocity. No problem if you use it with software piano, but if you plan on learning on it without be aware it may limit your expression and subliminally make your "softest" playing louder than it should/would be, if this is indeed a problem on all models.
Posted by: marimorimo

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/23/09 07:42 PM

@Passion: Funny, I thought the opposite. In my experience with acoustics (I have to admit it's very little), I need significantly more force and velocity to get any sound at all. I was actually worried that practicing on my DP would make my touch too light because sound comes out even though I touch the keys lightly. I would think more force is needed on an acoustic in order for the hammers to hit the strings (t
but of course, acoustics do vary in their touch).

But anyway, I do realize that current DP technology does limit expressiveness. I probably can't achieve ppp on my PX-730, but I'm trying! XD
Posted by: Passion

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/23/09 09:27 PM

@marimorimo: You do have a point I suppose, in that the touch differs on all pianos, even acoustic so readjusting would be necessary regardless. My only issue is that it doesn't sound at all, even the lowest velocity level, if you play too softly or slowly. Have you tried or is it just mine? I feel it should at least play a sample at the lowest velocity no matter how softly/slowly I depress the key.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/24/09 10:55 AM

I'm a newbie player and posted this on the musicplayer keyboard forums earlier after having the PX-330 for one week.

Likes
-----
Physical appearance and design
Price (value)
Key action
GP sounds
Asian instrument sounds (great fun, gotta learn...)
3 year warranty

Quibbles
--------
No sleep function
Hard to read panel especially in low light

There are other comments and reviews over there too.
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/24/09 12:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Passion
@marimorimo: ... My only issue is that it doesn't sound at all, even the lowest velocity level, if you play too softly or slowly. Have you tried or is it just mine? I feel it should at least play a sample at the lowest velocity no matter how softly/slowly I depress the key.


"real" acoustic grand pianos do the same thing. If you press the key slowly enough there is no sound because the hammer is not tossed onto the string.
Posted by: Passion

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/24/09 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: ChrisA


"real" acoustic grand pianos do the same thing. If you press the key slowly enough there is no sound because the hammer is not tossed onto the string.


Yeah you're right, I guess that makes me feel better. I just feel like the amount of force I'm exerting on the key is not low enough for it to be silent (i.e. the same amount of force on an acoustic would sound). I'm sure I'll get used to it.
Posted by: Quagles

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/25/09 10:59 AM

Ok so I ordered the Casio PX 320. Originally I wanted the 330, but of course to my misfortune, not a single online shop had it in. Only one place had it for sale but it would take significant time before it would even come to their storage so.

Not a single shop either had the Casio PX 730 as well, which was my 2nd option so I went for the 320. I think it actually ended up being more expensive as well, having to buy legs seperate. Oh well, been paid and all so nothing I can do :p maybe i should have just went for the 130 as well, maybe it would have been better.

Anyways what is the major differences between the 330 and 320, they don't look all that different to me but somehow I wish I could have grabbed the 330 instead. I guess ill be fine!

In short is there any really significant differences from the 320 and 330 that ill miss out on or is it just some minor annoyances? I've already sort of asked before but, I'm still slightly unsure.

Posted by: Piano Mom Too

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/16/09 10:47 AM

Hi, I'm new here - found this great thread researching DPs to buy for my 10 y/o son (thank you all for participating!!!)

Decided on the Casio PX-330, and got one from Guitar Center...
Out of the box, the keys were held with the blue tape - the 5 leftmost (lowest) keys were lower than the others and would not return. One of those had no sound at all, and another one thunked loudley when it returned. So, I returned it, and got another one. On this one, the 2nd lowest "b" clinks loudly when it returns.

Are we just doubly unlucky? At this point, I am questioning the quality of Casio. I did call customer service - my rep told me they did not know of any problems with the keys. I have some doubt here, as similar key problems were noted in a number of reviews. To tell you the truth, I would have felt better about the whole thing, and Casio, if they acknowledged a problem, and told me they were fixing it.

I would appreciate any thoughts about the reputation of Casio's quality, and opinions as whether I ought to try a third one. (I am sort-of inclined to do this, as I spent weeks making this decision in the first place, and I can be patient to get what I want.)

Thanks so much!!!
Posted by: Michael Darnton

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/16/09 11:13 AM

I got a PX130 last week. Fresh out of the box, absolutely nothing is wrong.
Posted by: bahk7

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/16/09 04:21 PM

I got my px 130 on monday. Had the blue tape holding the keys down. Everything worked fine,except for one problem the shipping company put a hole in the box mad and it chipped one the C# keys. Had to ship it back and get replacement now.
Posted by: xply

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/17/09 01:38 PM

I actually went to a guitar center yesterday to test the px130 and px330 (they don't have the px730 or 830 yet here in the US) the sound was a bit muffled compared to he other pianos there but for it's price, I felt it was a good deal. I was just about to get it when I found out while playing the px330 that it had a clicking problem on the C above middle C. when you press and hold it, it is normal but when you quickly let go of it, it makes this clicking sound as it returns to it's normal position. it is quite annoying. this made me change my decision. as a result, I left there with nothing. so the clicking problem still persists even in these new privias
Posted by: pixels

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/17/09 06:32 PM

Got the PX330 last week. Great keyboard but if you are looking for a "true" piano sound, you maybe disappointed. I knew what I was getting and what I needed. The piano sound is ok. There are some fantastic sounds though. I am not crazy about the sustain effect. Love the rhythms.
I tell ya, got my acoustic grand 2 weeks ago and this a week ago. Guess what gets played way way more.....PX330.
Posted by: Brian1963

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/18/09 01:53 AM

I just purchased the PX-130 & i'm very impressed. There is some clacking noise, but nothing like the yamaha YPG-535 that i took back. The action is really good & for the most part i'm happy with the all the sounds that it gives me. And for the price point it just can't be beaten. Sure if I had the $$ i would have bought the Yamaha P155, but that's way out of my budget.
Posted by: Sean M.

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/18/09 04:28 AM

Originally Posted By: pixels
I tell ya, got my acoustic grand 2 weeks ago and this a week ago. Guess what gets played way way more.....PX330.


You prefer playing the PX-330 to an acoustic grand?

...really?
Posted by: Pianisti

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/18/09 05:41 AM

So my new PX 130 arrived last week. 659 euros with CS 67 stand and SP-32 pedals from a net store. No problems with quality - delivery by UPS.

As I tested the mechanics against Yamaha P-85 and P-155 (and other brands) in the store, I decided to go with the PX130 because those Yammies were not considerably better or better at all and they were 1,5 and 2 times the price.

Feel & mechanics:
The keys in this px 130 made some clunky sounds in the beginning, but playing it for a while made those sounds go away. The keys do make a plastic kind of sound, but if playing with normal volume they can't really be heard. Not great mechanics, but a lot better than the DPs in the past.

It doesn't feel like playing a real piano, but playing with Pianoteq and adjusting the sound of the "hammer noise" gives a nice realistic feeling like playing a real piano. So it's not all about the "feel" of the keys as you can trick your brain with sounds as well.

Sound:
Not great, but ok to play. Pianoteq or other software really adds value. For that you need decent hardware though so if you really want good sounds as well and you do not have a powerful computer - double the budget and consider again to buy another piano. If you want to compose and record music - make the investment to the hardware and this px 130 will do fine.

Overall grade 6/10:
So I am somewhat satisfied with this purchase for now, but as I have played some Yamaha grands and I used to own a real piano for more than 10 years can't really say that this PX 130 is anywhere close to the feel or sound by itself. Not waste of money, but doesn't bring a "wow" feeling either without spending a lot of time configuring Pianoteq. With Pianoteq grade 8/10.
Posted by: DragonPianoPlayer

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/18/09 08:42 AM

So, I finally had the chance to try the PX330.

I really didn't like it and prefer my PX310.

I wasn't particularly impressed with the sound. This could possibly change if I tried it with headphones or through better speakers.

The action feels like a major step backwards to me. Quite frankly, I prefer almost all the Yamaha actions to the new Privia action. That is not the case with my PX310 or most of the other Privia models I've tried up to this new generation.

Guess I won't be upgrading any time soon.

Rich
Posted by: jas8z

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/13/10 11:52 PM

Got my wife the PX 330 off ebay for $575 this week. She loves it and it sounds good on it's own, but when I hooked it up to my Bose system it sounds awesome. I was at the Nashville Guitar Center a few hours ago and they are having a presidents weekend sale and have the PX 130 for $399 and the PX 330 for $550.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/17/10 12:10 AM

BIG kudos to Casio for putting the same triple-sensor action in the complete line-up, rather than reserving the best action for the top models. I haven't yet tried one of these models - I am very curious indeed, especially regarding the action. Assuming the action is good (which appears to be the case), I think it would be good if Casio could also produce some MIDI controllers with the same action.

Greg.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/17/10 01:06 PM

Originally Posted By: DragonPianoPlayer
So, I finally had the chance to try the PX330.

I really didn't like it and prefer my PX310.

I wasn't particularly impressed with the sound. This could possibly change if I tried it with headphones or through better speakers.

The action feels like a major step backwards to me. Quite frankly, I prefer almost all the Yamaha actions to the new Privia action. That is not the case with my PX310 or most of the other Privia models I've tried up to this new generation.

Guess I won't be upgrading any time soon.

Rich


I know where you're coming from, Rich. I used to have the PX-310, and sometimes wish I still had it. The ZPI chip seemed to do a very good job of generating pleasant-sounding tones. The action was pretty good, if slightly noisy, and the whole seemed like a very well designed package at a bargain price. However, it did have latency issues and the main piano sound lacked some dynamics.

When I "upgraded" to the 320, I was quickly disappointed. Even though the 128-polyphony and new piano tones were an improvement, the action gave me wrist-ache and there was something less pleasing about the AIF tone generation that I could never quite put my finger on.

So now I have the 330. It's definitely better than the 320 and is a much more sophisticated instrument than its predecessors, but... There is still something about the AIF chip that robs the sounds of life. It almost seems that, in their eagerness to stay up with the competition, technically, the designers failed to pay as much attention to the more subjective elements. The short decay is irritating and the quality of sound processing is not yet up to Yamaha/Roland. In a band context, the 310 blended very well and garnered praise from very surprised band members. I wouldn't use the 330 in a band. That said, I do think that it's possible to play the grand piano patches with much greater expression than on previous Privias and so, as a practice piano, it does a very good job. I just wish they had not gone backwards in terms of speaker quality, and had put more into the EPs.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/17/10 02:06 PM

I thought the same thing about the sound when I compared the PX-575 to the PX-320/120. To my ears,the sound was better on the PX-575, but I wasn't sure why. I thought it might be the ZPI chip and or the speakers as the case on the older Privias was larger and the sound is good from the internal speakers. When I played the 320, it just didn't have the same sound presence. I noticed the bass wasn't as good and it lacked the punch the older Privias had in midrange. This is understandable as Casio made the package lighter with more connectivity options, thus the tradeoff.
As for the PX-330, the piano voice is better especially the dynamic range. I agree the sustain is somewhat weak in the octaves above middle C, but thought it was acceptable. Thinking back to the Demo Mike Martin did with the PX-130 it sounds very good through the audio interface he used. I also think the action is improved over the older privias, and that strip of felt has helped quiet the key clack quite a bit when the keys return. The PX-575 is the only remaining Privia with the older sound chip, and action. I would think it's days are numbered as this model is over 3 years old and is due for a revamp. The PX-330 has less sounds, but more connectivity options and a better piano sample with more dynamic range. I can't think of anything as versatil for the money.
Posted by: daviel

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/17/10 04:36 PM

I bought a px330 on Monday, rehearsed with it Monday night for about 2.5 hours and played a 4 hour gig with it Tuesday night. Both bands liked the sound. These comments are subject to the "discount rule" of mine that says when making a judgment don't do it within about 30 days of using the thing for the first time. Even so, I must say the PX330 is a bargain and is really good for the use I need it for - club gigs. All I need it for is piano, and as a controller for a Nord electro2/61. I may never even experiment with the other features, which are many. I would have bought a px130 if it had 1/4" line outs, and midi. I just need a decent piano. I like the feel of the keyboard and the action suits me fine. I used Modern Piano and LA Piano most of the night. These patches seem to have a bite to them that is good for playing in a small group - cuts through. The action is super for playing the nord rhodes patches. I ran the nord through a speakeasy ama122 amp. I will always use the nord this way henceforth. The ama122 really soups up the electro organ and rhodes. I was playing mono, not stereo. I never have the stage room, nor the bone structure [can't heft too much because of a hip problem] to play stereo, and frankly, I like the sound. The gig was OK, except we had a sub on bass, which sent the train down a siding or two, but no harm. Load in and load out is wonderful with a 25 lb. piano! I read the Keyboard Magazine and harmony central user reviews before buying the board, and I think they are spot-on. I am glad I bought this board, and recommend it. Another benefit is that I have completely lost any yearning for any new keyboards that weigh more than this one, including the new Yamaha stuff, which I am sure are wonderful. All the other boards I have feel like they are made out of uranium compared to the PX330. It sounds good, looks good and is the perfect tool for my jobs!
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 12:43 AM

I've now tried a PX-130, to see whether it's tri-sensor action would elevate me into repetition nirvana. It did not, and my current keyboard (a very old Kawai MP9000) is faster, IMHO. It probably ought to be faster, because it weighs about three times as much. smile Nevertheless, I liked the overall feel of the Casio quite a lot - it's good to get a nice action in such an extremely light package.

As a sanity check I tried a repetition test on an acoustic upright to compare it with the Casio - the acoustic didn't skip a beat. (I only tried middle C though)

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 01:49 AM

I believe, the 3-sensor principle is not for repetition speed.

It is made for repetition depth. That means, you can play repetions where the key is not fully released, fast, but with reduced volume.

It should have the same effect as the repetition mechanic of an acoustic grand piano.
Its a feature made for classical music, not a feature for boogie woogie or jerry lee lewis style ;-)

A normal keyboard -as my Kawai AWA grand pro- will not reliably produce a sound, if you do this.

Unfortunately I had not opportunity to test this myself, but thats what I believe.

Peter
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 02:02 AM

Yes, I understand that, however I thought that would translate into repetition speed - the key does not have to travel up as far, which then results in an increase in repetition speed.
I was aware that the reptitions using the third sensor may be softer, but I simply could not detect anything special at all when doing the two-finger reptition test. If an acoustic upright (i.e not even a grand) could keep up with me I think it is highly unlikely that I was doing unusually rapid repeats.

I also tried a Ketron (never heard of them before!), and it seemed faster than the Casio, HOWEVER, the first two or three reps would often not work, which was rather strange. Once I got it going, though, it was fast.

EDIT: It is difficult for me to play single handed repeats (i.e using the rotating 3-2-1 fingered method) on my Kawai, so I will go back and see whether the Casio is any better at this more typical repeating method. Maybe you're right - the Casio may allow me to play with less finger travel, thus increasing my repetition speed in this more common situation.

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 02:28 AM

I believe the test should be done with one finger and releasing the key no more than 50%.

Repetition with more than one finger that is fast and loud repetion. The subject to test here is fast and soft (low-keyed) repetition as it occurs in classial solo piano playing.

BTW, if you go to the webpage of Seiler -that is a german high quality piano manufacturer recently bought by Yamaha- ,they specify the repetition rate for all their pianos. For almost all pianos (upright and grand), they specify a rate of 400 per minute. Because a digital has less mass to move it could be faster - theoretically.

So the speed doesnt need testing -it is the softness combined with speed that needs testing.

With a 2-sensor system, this is not possible. If a repetition is fast it will automatically be loud. So I dont believe, Kawai supports this. They use a lot of wood, but to implement this feature you need brain, not wood ;-)

Not that I know that for sure, but that is what I understand about it.


Anyway, thanks for sharing the experience. I hope that I can test it at weekend.
I would wish the px330 had the Ivory touch feature, but honestly, I dont know yet if this makes a big difference.

best,

Peter
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 04:37 AM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh


Repetition with more than one finger that is fast and loud repetion. The subject to test here is fast and soft (low-keyed) repetition as it occurs in classial solo piano playing.


How would you play rapidly and softly? With one finger? (I've never been taught to do that, but it's been a very long time indeed since my last lesson!)

Quote:
BTW, if you go to the webpage of Seiler -that is a german high quality piano manufacturer recently bought by Yamaha- ,they specify the repetition rate for all their pianos. For almost all pianos (upright and grand), they specify a rate of 400 per minute.


That's very interesting, because 400 seems very slow - Billy Joel is playing at about twice that speed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErPywgiMb4k
(playing "Angry Young Man") if I am not mistaken. (I loaded the audio into an audio editor and did a crude measurement)
I was definitely testing at a rate greater than 400 today, using the two-finger method. Could the 400 strokes per minute specification refer to full-stroke repeats? I.e - could it refer to the maximum rate achievable if the key is allowed to return all the way to the top? If not, I am confused by this specification - it seems WAY too low.

Quote:
Because a digital has less mass to move it could be faster - theoretically.


Yes. The difficult part is making it fast and at the same time making it feel like a real piano.

Quote:
So the speed doesnt need testing -it is the softness combined with speed that needs testing.


Why doesn't the speed need testing? Just because it is theoretically possible for a digital piano keyboard to be very rapid does not mean that every keyboard will be very rapid - as I have proved (to myself) today, testing the PX-130.

Quote:
With a 2-sensor system, this is not possible. If a repetition is fast it will automatically be loud. So I dont believe, Kawai supports this. They use a lot of wood, but to implement this feature you need brain, not wood ;-)


Ok, I had not thought of this. I agree - if a real piano plays rapid repeats softly (which I think is the case), then the Kawai probably does not reproduce this behaviour. However, so far, I have not witnessed the PX-130 play what I would call rapid repeats EITHER loudly OR softly. smile Not with any consistency, anyway. You may say that my Kawai is wrong to reproduce rapid repeats loudly, but I would prefer loud notes to no notes at all. ;^)

Greg.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 10:59 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Originally Posted By: hpeterh


Repetition with more than one finger that is fast and loud repetion. The subject to test here is fast and soft (low-keyed) repetition as it occurs in classial solo piano playing.

so far, I have not witnessed the PX-130 play what I would call rapid repeats EITHER loudly OR softly. smile Not with any consistency, anyway. You may say that my Kawai is wrong to reproduce rapid repeats loudly, but I would prefer loud notes to no notes at all. ;^)

Greg.


I have just run a completely unscientific test with my PX-330. It is possible to achieve rapid repetition both softly and loudly. The difficulty is achieving any degree of consistency with more than one finger. It works fine using alternating index fingers of both hands but the three-two-one method is problematic. That seems to be more of a mechanical issue than a sensor limitation. I have found with most DPs that unless you perform repetition with maximum leverage (i.e. right on the leading edge of the key) the lack of escapement/hammers inhibits the repetition somewhat. With multiple fingers, it is not as easy to achieve uniform pressure/leverage.

That said, the 330's tri-sensor repetition capabilities are a distinct improvement on previous (and some competing) models.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 12:52 PM

Hi,

I was at work when I posted and I had not much time.

Of course you are right, repetition needs testing. A keyboard might be comfortable for the fingers and another might not.

But this an ergonomic issue, not a technical one. From a technical point of view a digital /can/ always be faster, because it has much less complicated mechanisms and the electronic contacts dont have a speed limitation.

Im not a good player I am still learning, but I am an electronics technician and so I see it from the technical point of view.

Ok, here is an online metronome that can give an acoustical impression of repetition speeds:

http://advanced.bestmetronome.com/

Set it to 1/4 and to 400 Bpm.
Technically spoken this are about 7 Hz. The double speed is 14 Hz, and that is an audible tone ;-)
So I cant imagine that Billy repeats at that speed.
And, this is a proofable fact to me: For this style of playing a third sensor is not needed. ;-)))
(Dont misunderstand: I love to listen this and boogi woogie and other rock music, and yes he is incredibly fast)

If you want to hear how fast the double speed is, set the Metronome to 800 Bpm.

Ok, and for completeness here is the link to Seiler's technical data:

http://www.seiler-pianos.de/eng/technik/daten.htm

Note that they have a patented magnetic repetition mechanik, so they should be among the fastest possible.
I can imagine, that they can repeat faster with special plying technique, but they dont want to give warranty on this.

So, if you reach 400 or 600 then you are very good and with 800 an absolute technical limit should be reached.

best,

Peter



Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/25/10 08:47 PM

Peter,
400 per minute is only 6.7 per second. This is very slow - I can reach this just playing with ONE finger on ONE hand! I have emailed Seiler to try and get some clarification on this. As I say - it may be a specification that relates to full travel key strokes. (just a thought)

I found another clip of a 9 year old boy playing the same song (Angry Young Man), and he is playing at about 700 beats per minute. ;^) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcQqAFabrI8
Load this up into an audio editor, and measure the time taken to play the first three notes, and then work out the repetition rate.

I completely disagree with you that a digital piano will automatically be faster than a real piano. Yes - they could EASILY make an action that was much faster, but they CANNOT easily make an action that is faster AND which feels the same as a real piano. For example, I am sure that a dirt cheap Yamaha keyboard I have is as fast or faster than any real piano - however - it feels like an organ - not a piano! smile

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/26/10 02:52 AM

I have seen this yesterday evening.
It is clearly audible to me that he plays a digital piano.
I could not figure out which brand it is.

I agree in the other points. A digital will not feel exactly like an acoustic, because there is no damper connected to the keys and no escapement mechanics.

An example: some people say, the kawai ca63 repeats faster than the ca93.
The ca93 has escapement keys and the ca63 has not. So the escapement makes the keys slower on a digital.
However, the purpose of escapement in a real acoustic is to make repetition faster.

On a digital escapement has no other purpose than feel and fingertraining but it doesnt improve repetition.

Thats what I understand about it.

BTW. I believe, the speed that Billy Joel reaches is far beyond a normal repetition rate. This is not possible for each of the keys of the piano and I believe, to get this speed it is necessary to utilize a sort of natural mechanical -ballistic- resonance that the key possibly has.

That means if he really plays at 800, then he cannot do this at 600 because there is no resonance for this rate.
He can do it at 400.
I think this is beyond normal repetition rate and might even not be possible witch every acoustic piano.


Peter
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 02/26/10 05:43 AM

Peter,
I agree - it's a digital. (I would like to know which model!)

The idea of mechanical resonance is very interesting, and would certainly explain the 400 reps per minute spec - maybe Seiler are being very honest, and do not include "resonant peaks" in the response.

I have started a thread over on the technicians/tuner's forum, here: Reptition rate of a grand piano

Greg.
p.s I have edited this post and removed some stuff, mainly about the behaviour of my Kawai. (I can't reproduce the behaviour at the moment)

Posted by: nubi

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/04/10 02:45 PM

For those who bought the CS-67 stand. Can you tell me if this stand should lean against the wall? I am curious because the keyboard's speaker is in the back. If you lean the stand against the wall, the speakers will be blocked, right?

In addition, the attached music stand also extends beyond the keyboard's foot print. I wonder if the music stand can still be attached if the keyboard with CS-67 stand is leaning against the wall?
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/04/10 06:06 PM

Originally Posted By: nubi
For those who bought the CS-67 stand. Can you tell me if this stand should lean against the wall? I am curious because the keyboard's speaker is in the back. If you lean the stand against the wall, the speakers will be blocked, right?

In addition, the attached music stand also extends beyond the keyboard's foot print. I wonder if the music stand can still be attached if the keyboard with CS-67 stand is leaning against the wall?


The music stand for the PX330 protrudes about 3.5 inches so that is the minimum clearance against a wall (if using the music stand).

In theory the speakers will be partially blocked but I would say it depends on the size of the room. My PX330 is not against a wall, in a medium size room with few soft furnishings, and when not using headphones I rarely have the volume as high as even half way.
Posted by: Waza

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/09/10 06:37 AM

Hi All,

I was going to get myself the Px330 as I did not need a stand, but now i'll be putting my new keyboard into another room. I was looking at the prices of the 330 with stand and pedal and I can get the Px730 cheaper as a complete package. So i was wondering why people buy the px330 and still get the original stand and pedal?

Is there a difference in keyboards?

Should i just go for the Px730 which you get the stand and pedal included or buy the Px330 and get stand and pedal seperate.

cheers

Waza
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/09/10 07:13 AM

Waza,
It appears that the 330 has many additional features over the 730 - that would explain the price difference I think.

Greg.
Posted by: pesk

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/09/10 07:30 AM

Yes, that's right. The PX-330 has the most features in new Privia line. I also bought this DP with original stand and pedal unit and after while remove the pedal unit and buy ordinary oem damper pedal because it's more comfortable. grin

Mostly you never know untill you try for a while... wink
Posted by: Waza

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/09/10 09:08 AM

ah cheers guys for this....
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/12/10 04:46 AM

Just watching the PX-330 demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpX9Etxwtc (as mentioned earlier in this thread).

I can't believe it - at time 5:25 there is an entirely decent sounding Wurlitzer electric piano!! Not only does it sound authentic and good, but the change of timbre with velocity is very smooth. Hats off!

Greg.
Posted by: daviel

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/12/10 10:00 AM

The PX330 is doing very well. One more gig and a few more rehearsals and it is still doing its job. In rehearsals the on board speakers are very useful. The rhodes and wurl. tones are adequate, although I will still use the electro2/61 or the xk3 for organs. I am very pleased with this board.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/12/10 10:07 AM

daviel, do you prefer the Casio's Rhodes/Wurly sounds to your Electro2?

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: nubi

headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/12/10 02:52 PM

There are 2 headphone jacks on the side of the PX-130. I noticed that when I plug in a pair of headphones to one jack, the sound is good. But with the other jack, I can hear some noise. Possibly results from bad contact. If I use an 3.5mm extension cable, the noise is gone.

I am kind of concerned about the wear and tear on the jacks. But if I leave the extension cable plugged in, the speaker will be muted. What should I do?
Posted by: Earll

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/29/10 10:20 PM

Uhm, So I am completly new to keyboards and have no idea about anything but I was looking to get myself a 88 with hammer action, and it seems to me atleast that Casio PX 130 or 330 is the way to go for me. (is 88 keys with hammer action, can plug into a computer, and is of decent quality.) I am not really sure what the difference between 130 and 330 are though. Obviously the 330 has alot more different sounds, but i feel like I wont really miss them, also if i have a computer nearby cant I just get whatever sounds I may want through some software in the computer? (I have no idea if this would or would not work, but it seems plausible seeing as you can hook up the keyboard to a computer.)

Apart from that I also read somwhere that 130 lacks something MIDI related (not sure what) That 330 has? As far as I understand MIDI is with relation to plugging your keyboard into a computer, and seeing as my keyboard will the vast majority of the time be standing right next to my computer and will probably plugged into it alot of the time this is a pretty big selling point for me. Are there any other big differences I am unaware of here? (The LCD Screen i guess, but I guess as soon as I learn to use the PX130 i wont miss it that much.) Thanks in advance for anyone who hoepfully takes the time to help me out =D

Edit: So i read the 130 does not have a midiport, but the 330 does, but I am not really sure what this means/how this affects anything.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/30/10 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
daviel, do you prefer the Casio's Rhodes/Wurly sounds to your Electro2?

Cheers,
James
x


James, I don't want to steal daviel's thunder, but I don't prefer the Casio over the Electro2 in the EP department. The velocity switching on the 330 is crude - there are only two levels, I believe - and it's not really possible to control the dynamics. The basic EP sounds are not bad, but they don't have the expressiveness of the Electro, and you can't have the Wurlitzer without tremolo. I'm not a committed fan of the Electro2 EPs - they are not that inspiring in a solo context, and the Wurlitzer has an odd pitch thing going on in the attack/decay envelope - but they sound great in the mix. If I could justify upgrading to an Electro3, I would, more for the improved organ section than the EPs, although the release samples would add another dimension to the Rhodes and Wurlitzer sounds. Meantime, I'm waiting to try the CP50, and I'm still considering the SV-1.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/30/10 01:27 AM

voxpops, I'm in exactly the same boat! I would love to upgrade to the Electro3, but unless someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse on the 2, just cannot justify it...

I gave the most recent Pianoteq trial (v3.6) a blast for a few hours last Saturday. The Rhodes/Wurly presets sound great, and there's obviously no velocity switching going on, however I rather missed the overdrive functionality on the Electro, giving you that nasty, fuzzy bite.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/30/10 03:13 AM

That's interesting about the velocity switching in the 330 - in that YouTube clip I posted a few replies back, the Wurly sounds very smooth. Hmph.

Greg.
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/30/10 03:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Earll
..
Edit: So i read the 130 does not have a midiport, but the 330 does, but I am not really sure what this means/how this affects anything.


Standard MIDI ports use two round 5 pin DIN plugs. This has been an industry standard for 20+ years. However computers don't have MIDI ports so we use a MIDI to USB interface so the piano can plug into ta USB port.

But now some pianos build this interface into the piano so all you see is a USB port on the piano. This is good if the ONLY thing you'd ever plug the piano into is a computer. USB will not work with other MIDI devices.

With standard 5-pin MIDI you can connect muliple keyboards, pedals, and tone generators together. But for most people the only thing they might use is the computer so USB works for them.

I think the px130 has USB while the PX330 has "real MIDI" as well. In either case the exact same data is send over the wire
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/30/10 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
I gave the most recent Pianoteq trial (v3.6) a blast for a few hours last Saturday. The Rhodes/Wurly presets sound great, and there's obviously no velocity switching going on, however I rather missed the overdrive functionality on the Electro, giving you that nasty, fuzzy bite.

Cheers,
James
x

Now that's interesting. I also tried the latest Pianoteq these last few days. I love the new K1 piano, but was left indifferent about the EPs. There didn't seem to be the range of dynamics that I expected, and I felt that both the Rhodes and Wurly were too "buzzy". I much prefer the modeling on my GEM, although the Wurly's not quite there on that, either. From what I've heard so far, the SV-1 has got the Wurly nailed, if you can live with velocity switched samples.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/30/10 01:01 PM

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Originally Posted By: Earll
..
Edit: So i read the 130 does not have a midiport, but the 330 does, but I am not really sure what this means/how this affects anything.


Standard MIDI ports use two round 5 pin DIN plugs. This has been an industry standard for 20+ years. However computers don't have MIDI ports so we use a MIDI to USB interface so the piano can plug into ta USB port.

But now some pianos build this interface into the piano so all you see is a USB port on the piano. This is good if the ONLY thing you'd ever plug the piano into is a computer. USB will not work with other MIDI devices.

With standard 5-pin MIDI you can connect muliple keyboards, pedals, and tone generators together. But for most people the only thing they might use is the computer so USB works for them.

I think the px130 has USB while the PX330 has "real MIDI" as well. In either case the exact same data is send over the wire


I'm so glad that I have the 330 with its old-school midi ports as well as USB. I get a lot of hum/buzzing when connecting to my laptop using USB. Is this a common phenomenon with USB ports, or is it the techno-failings of an old geezer?
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/30/10 01:42 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
..that I have the 330 with its old-school midi ports as well as USB. I get a lot of hum/buzzing when connecting to my laptop using USB. Is this a common phenomenon with USB ports, or is it the techno-failings of an old geezer?


"real MIDI" is very well designed. It uses "opto-isolation" which means the data coming out of the piano controls a very small light, that light passes though glass and then controls a photo-sensitive detector and this detector is what sends data down the cable. So the cable has a glass insulator between it and the piano. This is a nearly fool proof method to protect from certain common causes of hum and buzz.

The USB cable was not designed to interconnect audio devices. What you likely have is a kind of ground loop problem. You may be able to solve it by plugging everything into the same outlet strip. and I mean "everything" that has any kind of a connection to the PC. The root cause is likely a small current flowing in the ground shield of the USB cable. The other way to solve this would be to use a USB or Firewire audio interface with balanced outputs. [i][/i]

Posted by: voxpops

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/30/10 02:44 PM

Thanks, ChrisA, that's useful info. I wonder if it's possible to buy a non-grounded USB cable.
Posted by: dewster

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/30/10 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Originally Posted By: voxpops
..that I have the 330 with its old-school midi ports as well as USB. I get a lot of hum/buzzing when connecting to my laptop using USB. Is this a common phenomenon with USB ports, or is it the techno-failings of an old geezer?


"real MIDI" is very well designed. It uses "opto-isolation" which means the data coming out of the piano controls a very small light, that light passes though glass and then controls a photo-sensitive detector and this detector is what sends data down the cable. So the cable has a glass insulator between it and the piano. This is a nearly fool proof method to protect from certain common causes of hum and buzz.

The USB cable was not designed to interconnect audio devices. What you likely have is a kind of ground loop problem. You may be able to solve it by plugging everything into the same outlet strip. and I mean "everything" that has any kind of a connection to the PC. The root cause is likely a small current flowing in the ground shield of the USB cable. The other way to solve this would be to use a USB or Firewire audio interface with balanced outputs. [i][/i]

It's kind of sad how many new audio issues are being caused by USB grounding problems.

For the record, the MIDI cable is directly driven by the source, and is only isolated at the receiving end via an LED / photo transistor (or photo diode) opto-isolator. This forms a current loop, and the insulator is optical plastic.
Posted by: ChrisA

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 03/30/10 04:33 PM

Originally Posted By: voxpops
I wonder if it's possible to buy a non-grounded USB cable.


No. All the cables are grounded plug to plug. However I wonder if something like a USB hub would break the loop?

Not quite out in stores yet is "wireless usb" which replaces the cable with a wireless radio link up to about 3 meters. No idea of cost or schedule. But when this does hit the stores I'll be in line to get one.
Posted by: Skylyn

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/08/10 02:46 AM

Hi! I hope it's OK for me to comment here... I'll explain a bit. I've been playing for a year, but on my own and recently I bought my first (digital) piano; the Privia PX-120 and I really like it, it feels nice (although I have nothing to compare it to) and it also sounds good. I'm happy for the most part (there are some things that annoys me), but originally I wanted the newer model, the PX-130, but since it was almost impossible to find it in my country, after months of waiting I just bought this one.

But after almost two weeks with my piano, I found the Px-130! So since then I've been wondering if it's worth to sell the PX-120 and buy this one. What do you say? It's the new model very superior?

Question A: I know it has a tri-sensor and I've read it has a better feeling? Do the keys make noises after you release them (I figure it's a normal thing in digital pianos, but in the PX-120 that can be a bit annoying, so I want to know if the PX-130 makes the same noises)?

Question B: I also get a bit tired after hitting the same key several times in a row and I have to do that with 7 different keys (when I play a variation of the Canon in D, "Canon in C" arranged by Jason Behik). When I played that part on my keyboard, it wasn't that hard, on this piano it's just slower and I get a bit tired, but perhaps it's because of the weitghted keys I'm not used to? Or it has something to do with not having a tri-sensor?

Question C: Do you think it's worth it? I mean, sell my piano and buy this one.

I'm asking all of this because I can only buy this piano online (the same was with the one I have now), so I can't test it (I hate where I live :().

Anyway, sorry for the long post. And apologies for my english as well. I hope someone can help me.:)

P.S.: I have visited this forum for almost a year now, but just recently registered. I like this forum a lot. smile
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/08/10 01:14 PM

Welcome to the PW Forum. You said you have been playing for a year, but did not say what kind of board you have been playing. If you have been playing an unweighted non hammer action board, that is likely the reason your fingers are getting tired. They are not used to playing weighted keys. This should cure itself in time as your fingers will build up strength. As you have found out, buying a DP without first trying it can have unpleasant surprises.

The PX-120 is slightly older than the 130. The major difference is the piano sample was improved from 3 layer to 4 in the PX-130. The action also was improved with the addition of a third sensor to aid repeating notes faster, and it appears that Casio improved the responsiveness. They took off the onboard rhythms that the PX-120 had. The 130 has just the metronome. They added a strip of felt under the overhang that covers the back of the keys to help quiet clacking. It seems the action is not as noisy. I'm not sure how to answer question C. Without being able to try it before buying, you would have to ship it back if it turned out you didn't like it.
Posted by: Skylyn

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/08/10 07:10 PM

Thank you, galaxy4t. I really appreciate your answer!

To answer your question, I had a Casio CTK-4000 keyboard, so no weighted keys. It is difficult to buy a piano without trying it first, but it's my only choice, unfortunately. But before I bought the PX-120 I read a lot of reviews, some bad, some good, so I was aware of many things. And for the most part I'm happy with this, it's just that I really wanted the PX-130 because I read it was better, but now I don't know...

Ship it back if I don't like it, it's also not a choice, I can't do that here. I really don't know what to do... As for the rhythms, I don't use it, so I wouldn't miss it, hehe.

I guess I'll keep reading and see if I get the chance to find it in a store near my city (this would be great).

Thanks again! smile
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/09/10 12:10 AM

Skylyn
Have you considered hooking your PX-120 up to a computer and using a plug in like Pianoteq? Many people think software pianos are the way to go because there is more dynamic range. Whereas a DP only has a 3 layer or 4 layer sample so it's harder to hear the nuances of the hammers hitting strings. If you were to go this way, it wouldn't matter which piano you had as the sound would be generated by the computer and you would be using the piano keyboard just to play the notes.
Posted by: JoeThePro

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/09/10 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Skylyn
Have you considered hooking your PX-120 up to a computer and using a plug in like Pianoteq? Many people think software pianos are the way to go because there is more dynamic range. Whereas a DP only has a 3 layer or 4 layer sample so it's harder to hear the nuances of the hammers hitting strings. If you were to go this way, it wouldn't matter which piano you had as the sound would be generated by the computer and you would be using the piano keyboard just to play the notes.


Agreed, I just discovered Pianoteq with my px-130 and will probably never use the built in privia sounds again if I can help it!
Posted by: Skylyn

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/09/10 11:10 PM

Yeah, that seems like a good idea. I've never used that software, but I might try it. smile

I think for now I'll keep this piano.

Thanks for the suggestion!
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/14/10 12:38 AM

Originally Posted By: me
Just watching the PX-330 demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpX9Etxwtc (as mentioned earlier in this thread).

I can't believe it - at time 5:25 there is an entirely decent sounding Wurlitzer electric piano!! Not only does it sound authentic and good, but the change of timbre with velocity is very smooth. Hats off!


Assuming the Wurly on the PX-130 is the same as the '330, I could only detect 2 layers (with a very obvious switch point, without the fancy morphing of the acoustic pianos) Same goes for the Rhodes preset. The loop point occurs very early too.

So I was very wrong - it's not nearly as good as I thought, unfortunately. I realise that it would be naive to expect excellent electric pianos in these low cost keyboards though.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 07/15/10 06:30 AM

Are there any 3rd party 3-pedal units that are compatible with the PX-330? The reason for asking is that the Casio one is meant to be used with the optional stand, which I would not necessarily want.

Thanks,
Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/17/10 10:01 PM

I've bought a PX-330! smile

It looks like I was wrong about the action not repeating very well. My unit IS repeating well! It's possible that I just wasn't relaxed enough in the stores when I tried them. I was using the vigorous two handed method, and maybe I was just too worried about attracting attention from the staff. Anyway, I bought it thinking that I would just put up with it, but I am pleasantly surprised at how well it's repeating.

I bought this mainly for practising away from home and just for having fun. I wanted portability, so I could quickly and easily chuck it in the car. I think it will be wonderful for this, and I tell you what - my hands feel TOTALLY comfortable playing this after my wooden action Kawai MP9000. (which I still have) I can't even say which I prefer - they're just different. (The Casio may be a bit lighter)

Note that I speak mainly as a "piano geek", not as a proper pianist. ;^)

Greg.
Posted by: bsl100

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/17/10 10:56 PM

Happy Casio Customers;

Calling Happy Casio Customers to Post here with their experiences on their PX series DP's.

If you've had problems, mention them and also inform if they were resolved by the company or not.

More than 65,000 views / hits for this thread... I guess a lot of people are interested to know if these DP's are good as they offer a lot of value.

Posted by: bsl100

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/17/10 10:57 PM

Greg,

Could you comment on the quality of the keys.

Also the key action, which you mention as being lighter, can be adjusted to suit your style (light / normal / heavy) as shown on page 42,43 of the manual.

Brian
Posted by: LesCharles73

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/17/10 11:16 PM

Originally Posted By: bsl100
Greg,

Also the key action, which you mention as being lighter, can be adjusted to suit your style (light / normal / heavy) as shown on page 42,43 of the manual.

Brian


The response of the keys can be adjusted; the feel, or "weight" can not. It's a mind game! wink
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/17/10 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: bsl100
Happy Casio Customers;

Calling Happy Casio Customers to Post here with their experiences on their PX series DP's.

If you've had problems, mention them and also inform if they were resolved by the company or not.

More than 65,000 views / hits for this thread... I guess a lot of people are interested to know if these DP's are good as they offer a lot of value.


I have the PX-330. I'm sorry I know absolutely NOTHING about digital pianos, but we had an upright piano when I was a child. Since I am now just at the very beginning of learning to play, please take my experience for what it's worth wink However I will say why I decided on this model in case others find themselves in a similar position. I was actually looking at DPs at the next price point down and researched them well, but wasn't even aware of the PX-130/330 however the action of the keys on the PX reminded me a lot of the real piano I'd grown up with. Sorry if this is not technically correct, but compared to the cheaper models, I could touch the keys VERY softly and not return the key to its fully "home" position, just back up a fraction, and it seemed to be exactly like our old piano. You know when you go softer and slower until finally the hammer doesn't actually touch the strings? It has a distinct tone (well to my ears anyway), and definitely sounds different to a normal hammer sound that's just softer. I don't know if that makes sense, but I thought the PX did a pretty good job of replicating that. Spookily good in fact, especially considering I still considered the PX-330 "cheap".

The other thing that attracted me was the USB so I can simply plug it straight into the Mac that sits next to it. My reasoning was that maybe I could find some software that takes advantage of the MIDI facilities on a DP to help teach me piano. I don't know if that's correct, but that was the thinking.

The PX is sold in Australia with a 5 year warranty. I figured in 5 years time I will either be wanting to upgrade, or it will be sitting in a corner on its side gathering dust with me wondering why I ever bought it. Hopefully the former wink

Finally, I considered the action of the keyboard as like the foundation of a house. I could always upgrade the sounds etc by using the USB/MIDI outputs, but if I bought a keyboard with a less realistic action I was always going to be stuck with the. As they say, you can't polish a turd. I'm sure there are better/more realistic actions around, but I don't think so at this price range.

Anyway, that was my rationale. It may be completely false for all I know. On the negative side. Well, at the end of the day they can stick "Privia" on it all they like, but let's face it, it's a Casio; a company who, in my mind, makes crap watches. The PX-330 is definitely built to a price. The sustain pedal for example is just miserable. So far the only fault I've had with it is when I turn it on it doesn't come on properly, a bit like a computer hanging on boot-up. I simply cycle the power switch and away it goes. You can set the PX-330 to remember your settings when you turn it off (that function is OFF by default), but for some reason the reverb comes on regardless. To me the reverb just sounds terrible so i turn it off each time. An annoyance. The pianos sound pretty good to my ears, but many of the rest of the voices are just laughably bad in my book. Occasionally I find a good one, but I bought it to begin to learn to play the piano so it makes no difference to me.

My 2 cents worth of newbieisms (well 1.5 if you like)

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/17/10 11:44 PM

Brian,
Assessing the feel of the action is very tricky I think. As others have said elsewhere, even changing the sound can change the subjective feel of the keys. All I can say, so far, is that the PX-330 action feels very nice. I don't have any quality problems at all, either. (fingers crossed!) I didn't know it was possible for such a lightweight instrument to feel as "solid" as this.

I'm no glissando freak, but it seems easier to do glissandos on the Casio than my old Kawai. I saw how easy that German chap ("MusikSchmidt") made glissandos look on this new Casio action, so I was curious to see whether it was mainly his skill or something to do with the action. I think the action really does make a difference. (No idea how it compares to a real piano in this regard)

Greg.
Posted by: bsl100

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/18/10 01:40 AM

Greg,

Thanx. A very frank review. I'll take it as one coming from a fairly satisfied customer. The problems you mention, namely the pedal quality, has been mentioned earlier and it was suggested to go in for the 3 pedal unit and stand if possible.

I think Yamaha needs to wake up to this and give the DGX 630/640 their GH or GH3 keys.

Brian
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/18/10 02:08 AM

Brian,
I think you may be confusing me with Pete - Pete has given the thorough review, and mentioned the pedals. smile

Cheers,
Greg.
Posted by: bsl100

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/18/10 02:17 AM

Not at all Greg. I did mean that someone else has mentioned about the pedals (not you).
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Serious concern about removal of music library from PX-330! - 09/18/10 03:24 AM

Yeah sorry I hadn't intended that to be a "review" as such, as I don't feel I have the expertise to do that. It was more a case of vocalising my thought process and how the PX-330 satisfied what I was thinking. I actually did get a little conned when I bought this DP. The store was a grubby little place that didn't even have the PX-330 on display, just the PX-130. I was about to buy the CDP-200 when I saw the PX-130 and asked about it. One touch of the keys convinced me this was a much better way to go. The salesman assured me that the PX-330 did everything the CDP-200 did, but more. In fact that's not true at all, the two are completely different. I bought the PX-330 sight unseen but I was very close to taking it back when I realised the two DPs weren't essentially the same, but as it's turned out it's been a blessing in disguise. Many of the "features" I was looking at were learning type functions I would very rapidly grow out of. On the other hand yes I am quite happy with this purchase so far and feel it should be a while until I grow out of it.

Pete
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: headphone jack quality of PX-130 - 09/18/10 06:40 AM

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I wonder if it's possible to buy a non-grounded USB cable.


No. All the cables are grounded plug to plug. However I wonder if something like a USB hub would break the loop?


No. I have now four of them (good ones and bad ones) and also my USB soundcard disassembled and examined them ;-)
Even active hubs are designed this way that they can also work in passive mode and have a direct ground and power connection. The bvetter ones have a diode and self recovering fuse in the line.
However, inside is quite often a 10µF capacitor that can help to filter the noise.

Mostly the noise is high frequency common mode noise. So it might not be absolutely necessary to have insulation. A current compensated filter coil in the ground and +5V line + 2 x 10µF capacitors (double PI-Filter) can probably solve the problem. The data lines dont have much current and dont contribute to the noise much. quite often they are insulated with capacitors.

I am goingt to design and test such a circuit and when it works I sell them for 50$ on Ebay, making a small bussiness until one of the big players takes over and steals the idea and sells them for 79.99$ .... ;-)

Possibly there is a cheaper solution: A 100µF capacitor soldered into the soundcard could reduce the alternating current of the ground line and reduce ground noise this way.

Peter


Posted by: piRround

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/10 08:59 AM

I guess I'll chime in here regarding the PX 330. I've had mine for several months now.
I guess I was one of the lucky ones since mine arrived (from Kraft Music) in perfect shape and remains that way.
As for clunking or clacking, I guess the keys clunk when I've got the headphones on and others can hear it, but since I can't, it doesn't bother me a bit.
I had a YPG 635 for a few months and frankly haven't noticed any difference with the weight or response of the keys.
I liked the tones and the rhythms of the Yamaha a little better than the Casio but the speakers were harsher, IMO, than the Casio. That being said, I've hooked up a set of the Logitech 2.1 speakers to the Casio. Granted, they are really meant to be computer speakers but they make a huge difference and probably would have done the same with the Yammie.
As I mentioned in a previous thread somewhere, the Yammie did not sustain in the left hand while in split mode and that was a huge deal for me, so I bought the Casio which does.
I'm one of those rare ones, I guess, that really likes all the "bells and whistles". I use the built in rhythms and the different sounds and layer, split, tweak, and anything else I can think of, so the PX 330 fits the bill in that respect. Also, I've got a few synth modules hooked up as well that I can play alone or layer with the keyboard--great fun!
I ran Pianoteq for a while until my computer crashed last week and I lost the registration number to reload. Liked that too.
Every so often I go to local stores and try out all the keyboards I can--saw an FP4 that I really liked--but really I can't justify spending an extra thousand since I'm more of a hacker than a player.
I toyed with the idea of hooking up a Roland KC350 amp but I'm in a quite small apartment and I think it'd blow me out of the place. My neighbors are extremely tolerant of me, though, so I'm still debating.
So in conclusion, and sorry this is so long, I'd have to say I'm very satisfied with the PX330 and will probably hang on to it for a while (but I reserve the right to keep looking for the next one!)
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/10 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: bsl100
Happy Casio Customers;

Calling Happy Casio Customers to Post here with their experiences on their PX series DP's.

If you've had problems, mention them and also inform if they were resolved by the company or not.

More than 65,000 views / hits for this thread... I guess a lot of people are interested to know if these DP's are good as they offer a lot of value.



I've posted elsewhere on these forums about the PX330.

Bottom line it's a great value DP at its price point.

I also have a Kawai CN33, more than twice the price, as a comparison. The Casio keys are lighter, and looser, but the touch and playability is fine. I have three pairs of clacking keys that developed a few months after I got the PX330, but my warranty is 3 years, and it doesn't interfere with playing. The piano sounds are fine through headphones and also an external audio system, but not so good using the internal speakers on, say, two-thirds volume or more.

It's a fun DP to play around with, although many of the other voices as mentioned by others are not so good. There's a whole bunch of unusual ethnic instrumental sounds too if you want to explore non-western music.

As a practice DP, portable enough for lugging around, it's probably unbeatable at the price.

To repeat myself it's great value at its price point.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/10 06:34 PM

Can anyone elaborate on what is meant by "clacking keys" or similar descriptions? I haven't noticed anything like that but would like to keep an eye out for signs of it.

While not the same thing, I've heard people talk about the noisy keys in some DPs. I've noticed that on the Yamaha played by Bill Hilton here http://www.bluespiano.tv/ Maybe it's just the way he's playing it, maybe Bill has worn out his keyboard smile but I certainly noticed it. The Casio most certainly doesn't make this same clicking noise. Being a mechanical movement there is, of course, some noise, but I would think if you could silence the strings on a real piano, different pianos would also make some noise to a greater or lesser extent. As best I recall our poor old girl did anyway. Casio have a layer of felt that I believe they try to convince customers is there to prevent this type of noise. I think that's more a product of the marketing department than the engineering section, as best I can see the keys don't actually come up that high! Nevertheless they seem to make no more noise than I would expect to hear.

Pete
Posted by: bsl100

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/10 06:45 PM


> 66000 views and counting.

Speakers could be better, keys need to be a better quality. Overall satisfied.

Casio, are you listening. Mike Martin are u seeing these posts??

This is just to make a good value DP even better.

I don't think people will mind paying a little more to get a speaker box and consistent quality in the keys.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/10 07:24 PM

Comparing the PX-330 action to my Kawai MP9000, the PX-330 seems to have more static resistance, but less "hammer feel". If I play very softly, I can feel something like a let-off on the MP9000 (even though it doesn't explicitly have this feature), and once this is overcome, I need very little force to keep the keys bottomed out. On the Casio, it feels slightly like there is a spring, and I have to maintain a greater pressure in order to keep the keys bottomed out. Not having access to real pianos, I can't say for certain which is more authentic, however I prefer the feel of the Kawai.
(and I realise real pianos all behave quite differently) Overall the Kawai feels like a more precise action. (and it's 9 years old) I'll see how much the Casio loosens up with time. I never noticed any "loosening up" of the Kawai though - it just stayed the same and very good. ;^)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/18/10 10:10 PM

This may as well go here - I notice that the Lounge Lizard electric piano software does not work properly with the Casio tri-sensor action. For notes that are partially released and then re-played, LL does not produce any sound at all.

Pianoteq is working fine, as I expected it would because I had already fed it test MIDI before I had bought the Casio. smile (I had done the same tests with EWQLP and Kontakt as well, and I don't expect any problems with them either, although I've seen a report regarding some Galaxy pianos [Kontakt engine] NOT working properly yet)

Ok, I suppose you could argue that LL only does electric pianos, and electric pianos don't have a double-escapement mechanism like a grand piano does. However, I think it would at least be nice to have the option. :P

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/19/10 01:07 AM

I made a comment some time ago about the difficulty I have playing very rapid "double stabs" on my MP9000. It often doesn't sound right - the second stab will sound a bit exaggerated. I do NOT have this problem on the Casio - it is effortless to play in this style just the way I want, with the second stab sounding subtle and soft, with no obvious break in the sound inbetween each stab. I may do an audio demo later. In fact, an idea I have is to record two tracks simultaneously - one of Pianoteq, and one of Lounge Lizard, just to illustrate how often I am using the middle (third) sensor of this Casio action. (i.e - LL will completely miss out on some notes because it is not responding to the third sensor) I'm not saying that the third sensor is soley responsible for the improvement. It may also be that the Casio has less hammer inertia for me to overcome, and of course the return rate of the keys is important too. (I would not be at all surprised if many semi-weighted 2-sensor actions also behaved to my liking)

I can't think of any recordings that have exactly this stlyle of playing off the top of my head. The (acoustic) piano playing in Abba's "Dancing Queen" is similar, however I am playing faster, and I am emphasing the first note - not the second.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/19/10 11:44 PM

I've done some testing with this "double stab" thing.

The Kawai is also able to do this well, when I use it with Pianoteq. I quickly switched over to an internal sound (the Wurlitzer, albeit slightly customised), and I noticed the problem again. I don't understand what the problem is yet, but I'm quite sure it's not the Kawai action.

The Kawai's top sensor is in ROUGHLY the same position as the Casio's middle sensor - at about the 50% return point. The top sensor of the Casio (i.e - the Note-Off sensor) is at about the 2/3rds release point. So, assuming the Casio's key return rate is roughly on par with most hammer actions, it is vital that software support the third (middle) sensor of the Casio for the maximum possible repetition rate, because the top sensor is quite high up. When I measured the Roland PHAII in a store, I thought it's top sensor was also about the same position as the Casio's top sensor, so perhaps the PHAIII really does improve the repetition rate of the Roland, because the third sensor would allow it to repeat at a lesser key return than the PHAII?

Anyway, coming back to the Casio vs Kawai. Assuming the keys return at about the same rate (which may not be true), then the advantage of the Casio would not be in the repetition rate - it would be a possible improvement for legato playing, due to the fact that the Note-Off is sent at a later time during the key return. Of course, the other advantage of the Casio is that it also allows repetitions to occur without ANY Note-Off being transmitted between each repetition, which simulates the behaviour of a real grand piano. (I'm not noticing this in my "double stab" playing though - both sound about the same)

Regarding Lounge Lizard - I notice that it DOES behave properly when run as a VST - it's only in standalone mode that it ignores the partial repetitions. Very odd.

Greg.
Posted by: dewster

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/20/10 10:14 AM

Greg, could it be that the exaggerated second note is due to two notes playing at that point instead of one? If the sound source doesn't enforce piano rules on how it renders incoming MIDI, then that would be possible, no? If you could make a quick MP3 of it I could tell you for sure by examining it in Audition.

Could it also be that the key commands to Lounge Lizard are being filtered somehow by the VST host?
Posted by: Galuwen

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/20/10 10:20 AM

Hi,

have you ever monitored (with a midi monitor software) how many REAL Midi values the Casio can send (does it support real dynamic playing from 1 to value 127 or does it record only the 4 diff speeds it's internal engine can process)?

This would make a big difference whilst playing a VST instrument.

Thx.

Alexander
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/20/10 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: dewster
Greg, could it be that the exaggerated second note is due to two notes playing at that point instead of one? If the sound source doesn't enforce piano rules on how it renders incoming MIDI, then that would be possible, no? If you could make a quick MP3 of it I could tell you for sure by examining it in Audition.


I don't think so. Remember, I can reproduce the problem using just the Kawai and it's own internal sounds. I suspect that it're more likely to be a velocity curve problem. The release time may be important too. I may upload the problematic recording, although it's probably not relevant at all to this thread.

FYI, here's how I want it to sound: http://www.box.net/shared/xond3ghlyu This is the PX-330 playing a Wurly preset in Pianoteq. Listen for the very rapid double repeats in the right hand chords. It's working very well. However, as I said, the Kawai can also do this, so this isn't actually a demonstration of any advantage of the Casio's third sensor afterall. Perhaps the Casio is slightly easier to play like this due to it's lighter action.

Quote:
Could it also be that the key commands to Lounge Lizard are being filtered somehow by the VST host?


Maybe, but they've accepted that it's a bug, so I'll just wait for the fix. smile

Thanks,
Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/20/10 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Galuwen
Hi,

have you ever monitored (with a midi monitor software) how many REAL Midi values the Casio can send (does it support real dynamic playing from 1 to value 127 or does it record only the 4 diff speeds it's internal engine can process)?

This would make a big difference whilst playing a VST instrument.

Thx.

Alexander


Doesn't the PX series blend in its 4 samples in its engine? That would imply to me that it has the appropriate data to do so and should be able to export the same. If there's a free version of MIDI monitoring software for Mac that can do this task I may be able to load it and test this if you're interested?

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/21/10 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Galuwen

have you ever monitored (with a midi monitor software) how many REAL Midi values the Casio can send (does it support real dynamic playing from 1 to value 127 or does it record only the 4 diff speeds it's internal engine can process)?


I've watched the velocities on a graph in an external program (Pianoteq) - it most certainly does transmit the normal 1-127 range of velocities. (I have also listened to how both internal sounds an external sounds behave - no problems whatsoever) As Pete said, despite the fact that the internal acoustic piano sounds use samples taken at 4 different velocities, it interpolates these to create intermediate timbre and volume levels. Even if it did NOT blend the timbres at all, it would still play the 4 levels of samples at the correct volume to match the velocity. For example, it sounds to me like the electric piano sounds do NOT use the AIF "morphing", and they only have 2 velocity layers. There is a very noticable change in timbre at the velocity switchpoint. However, it still adjusts the sound LEVEL properly (in tiny steps) within each of these 2 velocity ranges.

Greg.
Posted by: Galuwen

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/21/10 06:45 AM

Hi,

You can use:

http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/

It is free and it is for the Mac.

Thx a lot and THX to GREG for the info *HURRRRRAAAYYY*

Alexander
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 12:21 AM

Asked this in another post, but thought to ask it here as well. What 3rd party pedals work with the new Privia's? I was thinking of getting the M-Audio sp2 as it has half-pedaling and polarity switch. But are there any others that are good? Any 2 or 3 pedal units out there that work with Privia? Thanks!
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 12:41 AM

Just a little heads up about the Australian warranty (5 years). I decided to actually read the little warranty slip that came with my PX-330. To my shock, it said 12 months!! Fortunately, though, everyone has assured me that the piano does in fact have a 5 year warranty, however the accessories only have a 12 month warranty.
I have obtained a "Casio EMI Australian Consumer Warranty" document from the distributor. The retailer has also agreed to write on the receipt that I have a 5 year warranty, and I will be taking that precaution as well.

I have urged the distributor to address this shortcoming in their documentation. It was a nasty shock which I would rather not have had.

EDIT: I have now spoken directly to Casio, and they said that the aforementioned document should have been packed with the piano. The warranty slip that I did receive is the standard slip from Japan.

Greg.
Posted by: voxpops

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 12:41 AM

If I remember correctly, Yamaha pedals have opposite polarity to Casio's, so don't buy one of those. Roland make a couple of nice pedals, particularly the DP10. I don't think you can use third party multi-pedal units with the PX-130.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 01:04 AM

Greg, thanks for following that up and letting us know.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 04:08 AM

My PX-330 has a weak headphone output. It cannot drive either my HD-570 or AKG601 sets with sufficient level. It can drive my multimedia headphones loud enough though.

I do not have this problem with my Kawai MP9000.

No, I am not surprised about this.

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 04:39 AM

Greg, I'm in the process of chasing down a mixer right now so I can take the audio from both the Casio and and the computer and feed both to my headphones. It's basically so I can more easily play along with DVDs and CDs (at the moment I need to play with one ear off) however it would also solve your problem if you used either an external mixer or even a simple headphone amp and fed it from the 6.5 mm audio outputs.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 04:54 AM

Thanks Pete, yes, I have an external headphone amp and it is fine. (I just use the headphone output of my integrated hi-fi amp, which has PLENTY of drive)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 04:57 AM

Btw I am not pooh-poohing my Casio - I really LOVE it for what it is. I am just making observations.

Greg.
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 05:42 AM

My headphone outputs must have the extra oompf that yours are missing, I'm sure you could strap someone in, turn the volume up and use it as a torture device.

My _understanding_ is that half pedalling will only work using Casio's 3 pedal array, I don't believe you will get it if you simply plug a 3rd party pedal into the standard pedal input.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 05:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Vectistim
My headphone outputs must have the extra oompf that yours are missing, I'm sure you could strap someone in, turn the volume up and use it as a torture device.


It depends on the headphones. My multimedia headset can go quite loud. (but still not as loud as yours seems to) What headphones are you using, exactly? Mind you, I appreciate that you might have better hearing than me. smile
Do you also have the PX-330, or do you have another model?

RE: the pedal - that was my understanding too.

Greg.
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 06:31 AM

I've got some Stagg ones that are ridiculously loud, I think its these ones:
http://rockingrooster.co.uk/productStaggSHP1200HHeadphones-8.99.html
although I can't work out how you wear them as they don't seem to be adjustable.
I've tried round the neck and that doesn't work either.

Then I've got some over ear Sony headphones that must be about 20-25 years old, (can't tell you the model number from here) and they seem very good to me.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 06:39 AM

Thanks. Those Staggs are only 32 ohms, so they will be easier to drive than either of my good quality sets (64 ohms for the HD570, 120 ohms for the AKG 601s). It appears that my multimedia headset is also 32 ohms, probably. (they're an old set of Verbatims, and the closest model I can see on their website is 32 ohms)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 06:45 AM

Btw, I remember that when I got the HD-570s, they produced less volume for a given volume setting on my amp than my previous set, which were the HD-465. I see that the HD-465 also had an impedance of 32 ohms. ;^) (I hated those HD-465s though! They're in the bin now)

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 07:09 AM

Actually, assuming you're driving the headphones with a pretty conventional solid-state amplifier (as all DPs do), then the impedance is largely immaterial. How loud the headphones will sound is basically a function of their sensitivity, in this case the sound pressure level per milliwatt of input power. The sensitivity level can vary markedly between different headphone models and types, the HD-570, at 97dB is quite an inefficient model when compared to the the HD-465 at 110dB
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 07:15 AM

Ok. I just thought that there was SOME correlation between impedance and sound level, because the high impedance headphones require a higher voltage to drive them. Not all headphone amps have sufficient voltage swing to drive them. Is this not correct?

Just as an example, the K601s have a sensitivity of 101dB, which is a bit better than the HD570s (97dB). However, the HD570s sound louder to me than the K601s. I suggest that this could be due to the fact that the Casio simply doesn't have sufficient voltage swing to drive the higher impedance K601s.

I've decided that the sound level using the HD570 is JUST enough to be comfortable. I'd prefer it to go a bit louder though. The level with the K601s is not enough for me. (this is probably partly due to the fact that the K601s do not emphasise the bass like the HD570s do)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 08:09 AM

Extract from http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/17179/please-explain-headphone-sensitivity :

"The sensitivity rating is usually for 1 milliwatt POWER input to the phones and a corresponding sound pressure level (SPL) output (USUALLY 102 to 106 dB SPL output for moderate to high sensitivity rated phones).

However, connecting different sets of phones with the same 1 milliwatt to SPL output sensitivity rating to the same headphones amplifier output may, or may not give corresponding equal or loud enough SPL operation!

The impedance (the ohms rating of the phones voice coil) determines how much audio 'voltage' needs be applied to get that '1 milliwatt' or more power into the phone's motor circuit.

For example: A low 16 to 45 ohm headphone (low ohms impedance that's typical for Sony headphones) will easily get to operate for many milliwatts for providing close to live loudness on battery powered portable equipment that typically output only .5-1.5 volts RMS volts output.

A 65 to 600 ohms phones set impedance (higher ohms typical of Sennheiser, Beyer, & AKG headphones). will require a higher headphones amplifier output voltage signal to get the same milliwatts into the phones voice coil for providing equal loudness.

Most of these higher impedance phones require connection to a headphone amp circuit that has ability to drive at least 2-6 Volts RMS to get reasonable loudness for phones listening. Not the type of headphone to use on most portable powered deck's with low voltage phones outputs. These high ohms phones really need a an AC powered amplifier's headphone jack or even direct connection to 10 watt or more power amp's speaker outputs for realistic (loud) listening. There are headphone amps available for this purpose and some are battery powered with at least (1 or 2) 9 volt batteries, the minimum supply needed for higher impedance phones to work at reasonable loudness.

Bottom line: Phones sensitivity is only a measure of the ability to play loud enough only if comparing phones with about the same ohms impedance that are being driven by the same headphone amplifier.

Best before buying is to try out the phones on the exact equipment you to use while playing typical sounds of interest."
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 08:51 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Ok. I just thought that there was SOME correlation between impedance and sound level, because the high impedance headphones require a higher voltage to drive them. Not all headphone amps have sufficient voltage swing to drive them. Is this not correct?


Yes there is a correlation, but not really in this context. Firstly, the 3 headphones you quoted are not especially high impedance. Of course "high" is a relative term, but to me (and I'd suggest many others from this field) that means 300 or possibly even 600 ohms impedance. 120 isn't especially high, and if you're having trouble driving them with the Casio then I'm in a world of doo-doo, because I have a new pair of HD-650s that I will no doubt also want to use on this and they're 300 ohms!!!!

The other thing is that the sensitivity is given at a specific power level. What that means is that for a lower impedance headphone, less voltage is required to achieve the same amount of power. This will be seen as a different setting on the volume control, and that may cause some to draw a false conclusion.

I have yet to pull the PX apart to see how they drive this stage, but normally most mains powered amps are capable of enough peak-to-peak voltage to drive high impedance headphones to quite high sound pressure levels. However I'll certainly post if it has trouble driving a high impedance load.

Pete

Edit: Greg, we posted at the same time but I'm not quite sure what the point was you were trying to make by that cut and paste. Google is a terrific tool, but the search results need to be considered in context. That article was really comparing a very different situation to here. Firstly, they were addressing purchasers of headphones who may possibly be considering using them on devices such as iPods etc, that simply cannot generate the p-p voltages required to drive high impedance headphones to high SPL. Secondly, at the end of the day, this is an acoustic piano we're trying to replicate, not the front row of a Black Sabbath concert. Just how loud do you want a piano to sound? wink
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 09:04 AM

Of course a lower impedance will require less voltage - Power = V^2/R! ;^)

Btw, the PX-330 is not mains powered, really - it runs off 12V DC.
(yes, the plugpack is of course "mains powered")

I will be curious to see how you go with your HD650s. I will be VERY surprised if they are loud enough for you.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 09:18 AM

Btw, I am glad it is 12V DC, because that may allow it to be battery operated. I've measured the power - despite being rated at 18W, it typically only draws a few watts, and that's the AC input power to the plugpack, too, with speakers going.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 09:30 AM

Pete,
re: your EDIT:, I posted the cut & paste because I felt that it was strongly supporting the point I was trying to make: the impedance of the headphones matters as well as the efficiency/sensitivity. ;^)

Just tried a set of very cheap ear buds: VERY VERY loud, but no bass or treble - terrible fidelity. smile

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 02:04 PM

Greg, hopefully my explanation adequately explains why the headphone impedance is typically not much of a factor in this type of device/purpose. As I mentioned, I think many people are fooled by the volume control being at a different setting. 300 ohms could be pushing it though, so we'll see how that goes.

In relation to the power, this is still considered "mains powered", even though the power supply is external to the device. Manufacturers increasingly do this when manufacturing low powered devices, for various reasons that probably aren't all that important here. Some big disadvantages for the consumer however are that, in my opinion anyway, the external power supplies are just butt ugly. However more a factor is that when internal, the main power switch is normally on the AC side of the power supply, so kills the whole power. In this case the power supply is clearly not even inside the unit, so is powered 24/7. Even when "idling" like this, they still consume some power, so it's neither environmentally friendly and does potentially pose a fire hazard if it malfunctions while nobody was around.

As far as the potential to run this from batteries, I'll resist the temptation to ask "why?", instead suggest that it may not be quite as easy as you may imagine. The 12V into this unit is regulated to be at this figure reasonably accurately. A battery is by definition unregulated and varies quite a lot in voltage depending on type/charge/etc. I think many people seeing 12V envisage powering in auto type scenarios ... maybe banging out some tunes as they're cruising down the M5 laugh I really don't know. But I could pretty much guarantee that attempt to run the unit on an unregulated 13.8V battery like that would almost certainly result in the release of the smoke genie. If you wanted to power off batteries, be sure there is a voltage regulator in that setup to give true 12V regulated power.

Pete
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 02:22 PM

What about something like this? Think that may work?

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/p...ELAID=578549420
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 02:57 PM

Pete,
Did you read my post where I stated that my HD570s, that are LESS sensitive than my AKG601s (97dB vs 101dB), are louder?

I am in no way convinced that impedance is NOT an issue, even at 64 ohms and 120 ohms.

Also, it appears that my multmedia headset has a sensitivity of 98dB, which is less sensitive than the AKG601s, yet it is MUCH louder. (I will attempt to make sure of that 98dB spec with Verbatim)

I await your HD650 opinion.

RE: the battery idea, I thought it might be handy for busking or similar applications. Yes, 13.8V might be pushing it a bit though. If I try it, I'll report back. ;^)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: NoFingers
What about something like this? Think that may work?

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/p...ELAID=578549420


Maybe, but I think it would require a splitter cable, because these Casios have two seperate pedal inputs - not a dual input.
(yes, it ALSO has a seperate proprietry input for the Casio 3-pedal unit)

Greg.
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 03:48 PM

Ok, my Sony headphones are MDR-P1

I've also tried el cheapo earphones that came with a free mp3 player and they produce plenty of noise too, so there must be some sort of issue with your machine's output.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 03:48 PM

Fingers,
You would need to buy the CASIO pedal if you want the half pedal option. That is what connects to the pedal jack under the piano.You will have a hard time mounting and stabilizing the Casio pedal without the wood stand. It is propertiary. I recommend the m-audio SP2 pedal for your Casio. I believe you said you are just starting out. This is a good pedal and is really all you need.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Vectistim
Ok, my Sony headphones are MDR-P1

I've also tried el cheapo earphones that came with a free mp3 player and they produce plenty of noise too, so there must be some sort of issue with your machine's output.


Thanks for checking this. I don't think we can come to that conclusion yet though. As I said, I also have two pairs of headphones (the multimedia headset and the ear buds) that ARE loud with the PX-330. If I didn't have two OTHER pairs that were NOT loud, I would not have brought this up in the first place. smile

I haven't been able to find the specs on the MDR-P1 headphones yet.

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 09:52 PM

Greg, yes I have read all your posts. Having re-read this part of the thread again I can see I may have caused some unintended confusion. While I was replying to one of your initial posts about headphone impedance's you posted again. Now reading them in order I feel this leads to a false "story". So I'll try again from the top wink

Though I cautioned about being lured in by the setting of the volume control and drawing conclusions about a headphone's efficiency, it seems that is precisely what has happened. Basically when you use headphones of different impedance you may indeed need to adjust the volume control, in fact probably will. However the volume control on consumer electronic devices is not a calibrated device, at best it will have numbers around it, but typically simply min/max. For that reason you can't draw any conclusions about either the headphone's sensitivity/impedance from the relative setting of the volume control. As you found yourself Greg, you can have an inverse relationship, with the impedance winning out smile

At the point I came into this discussion you were discussing headphones in the range 30-120 Ohms, and around this (relatively low impedance) range the Casio shouldn't have any difficulty in achieving sufficient peak-peak voltage to achieve quite high sound pressure levels. I emphasise shouldn't because sometimes theory and practice are two different things. All decent headphone amps should have an output impedance of 120 Ohms, and be capable of driving headphones up to 300 Ohms without difficulty. Without getting too much into the technicalities, a typical op-amp (as almost certainly used in this) can normally be driven to within a couple of volts of the rail voltage. The engineers have a 12 v rail available, so in theory that would be MORE than adequate for a headphone amp to drive very high impedance headphones. BUT, that's just the theory. I'm currently using some Sony MCR-CD770 headphones (ie low 32 Ohm impedance/high sensitivity), yet I too noticed I needed a relatively high volume setting even on these.

So the bottom line is that the headphone impedance in relation to modern amps is largely immaterial (except as we may well find out when you get to the extremes). If you're swapping between different headphones you may notice you'll need to adjust the volume control somewhat, but it was never set on any particular value to begin with. Greg I'm very surprised you're having difficulty driving a 120 Ohm headphone, as there is no technical reason that I can see for this to be the case. I do vaguely recall some limitation on the maximum SPL that could be delivered by portable electronic devices (to protect people's hearing). Now it could be that's been implemented in this DP, either by design or by accident, I honestly have no idea. When designing a device, engineers very typically simply lift an entire circuit design from something else and simply copy it, especially in this part of the circuit as it's pretty basic.

Hopefully that clarifies this somewhat.

Pete

PS as far as your device being "faulty" as suggested by some others, I very much doubt it. Most modern headphones are low impedance and relatively efficient, since the main market is in portable music devices. Given these devices are battery powered by just a few volts, they don't have much headroom to play with. Op-amps designed specifically for portable devices can go much closer to the rail voltage for that reason, nevertheless they still won't typically be able to deliver much p-p voltage output. It would be extremely foolish for a headphone manufacturer to produce a relatively high impedance headphone priced such that it may appeal to that market. Indeed just glancing through specs, it almost seems as if somewhere around 32 Ohms has become the de-facto "standard" for headphones these days, simply due to the intended market.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 10:23 PM

Thanks Pete. Yes, I agree/understand that the efficiency of the headphones is important, and there would only be some correlation to impedance if the headphone output was being maxed out. (which I still think is entirely possible in the case of this PX-330)

I think you are starting to accept that the headphone amp in the PX-330, just maybe, is not as good as it might be. ;^)

Note that my laptop computer is also unable to drive the AKG601s loudly. (haven't tried the HD570s yet) My smartphone is the worst of the bunch. ;^)

I have been doing a bit of digging, though, and it appears that there are good quality headphones that have a low impedance, assuming I am right in that the PX-330 is best suited to low impedance headphones.

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang

I think you are starting to accept that the headphone amp in the PX-330, just maybe, is not as good as it might be. ;^)


Errr, I don't recall claiming that the headphone amp in this was particularly good. I DO however recall saying that I thought the headphone amp is crap and I was considering stripping it out and rebuilding it, to which several posters here cautioned against that. The reason for that had nothing to do with headphone impedance, it was because I could both hear it was crap and as an electronics engineer myself, had a pretty good idea of how it would be designed (ie cheaply!). Since then I've decided to get an external mixer (again for quite different reasons) and probably won't be bothered to fool about with the Casio's headphone circuit. The mixer I'm now waiting on is nothing special, Behringer 502, but I chose that as it's simple, cheap, and I've looked through the schematics of some of their mixers, and they're all the same basic design, so the 502 can be easily "frankensteined" should I get a sudden rush of blood to my head one afternoon and decide I want to upgrade its audio performance.

I'm still hobbling around largely one armed, but if I get a chance in the next few days I'll try to drag my oscilloscope up from the workshop (though "portable" I wouldn't want it dropping on my head!) and let you know what the p-p voltage output is on the Casio. Whether it's a worthwhile exercise I don't know, as if you're saying the Casio won't drive a headphone of 120 Ohms, then that's basically the end of the story.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 10:55 PM

Pete,
Sorry - I knew you were thinkig of trying to improve the outputs, but I didn't know you had already noticed any deficiencies. (and I hadn't thought about whether you were interested in the line-outs, headphone outs, or both)

Yes, not only is it having trouble driving 120 ohms, but it is also having trouble (but less so) driving 64 ohms.

That would be interesting if you did the p-p measurement. I don't have anything that can measure at audio frequencies, and I'm loathe to use mains frequency. ;^)

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 11:51 PM

Ok, well I dragged the CRO up here. Not a terribly scientific test, but striking a variety of keys (mainly middle C) as hard as one would, I got roughly 1.0 V p-p output, and I think that was being generous. That's somewhat lower than I'd expect for a headphone amp, indeed now I'm REALLY curious to see the circuit. As mentioned above though, keep in mind that the biggest selling headphones are in the 32 Ohm range, maybe even 16 Ohm! If you design a circuit that can cope with quite high impedance headphones, the majority of the population will be fiddling about trying to adjust the volume over a small range towards the bottom of its travel. That's really the only reason I can think of as to why the output should be this low.

Yes I'm always keen to improve the performance of audio products, but at this price point you basically know what you're getting before you even listen to it. For 99.9% of the population they honestly couldn't care less, but for A-R's like me, I care. Indeed I recall some years back sitting down and listening to a live compilation CD recorded in OZ. Not only was the compression outrageous, but I could distinctly hear digital clipping (which sounds horrible!) on the tracks. I ran it through some audio analysis software and sure enough, over 1,500 points of digital clipping per channel on each track. I wrote to the record company asking why their full retail priced CD was so poorly mastered. Their response? "We have sold over 150,00 copies of that CD and you're the first to complain about this". ... BTW, my retort was that McDonalds sells millions of hamburgers a day too, based on "the more we sell, the better it must be" standard of the record company executive, McDonalds must be a 3 star Michelin restaurant! Needless to say, that was the end of that email exchange laugh

Anyway, the bottom line of all this has been that the Casio PX-330 is probably only suitable for driving low impedance headphones. Why? Who cares, but that fact could be a good thing for potential purchasers to know.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/29/10 11:58 PM

Thanks for doing the measurement - much appreciated!

Yes, I have read that clipping is quite common now. frown

You think you're an A-R. I can't believe I did this, now, but I actually complained about the impulse response of a consumer CD player. I took the unit in, and showed them the impulse response output of the player. Can you believe that? laugh I think I'm a bit healthier now. Just a bit.

I'm curious about battery operated headphone amps. One day I might try one but I can get by without one at the moment.

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/30/10 12:23 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Yes, I have read that clipping is quite common now. frown


Really???!!! Pffft, well that just really bugs me, because there's no reason for it other than trying to simply be louder than the next song. Sad!

Anyway, last post OT as I better actually use this thing for its designed purpose. If you or anyone reading this buys the Casio and feels the need for an external headphone amp, I just went through the process of looking at quite a few different designs. If you're handy with a soldering iron, I felt the kit offered by Jaycar here in Australia, as published by Silicon Chip magazine some years back, was pretty much as good as any I saw. http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5417&keywords=headphone+amplifier&form=KEYWORD In addition to this you'll need the power supply, some form of volume control, and of course an enclosure. I haven't built the circuit myself, but it certainly looks quite good on paper, and if you exchanged some higher grade components I'm quite confident would be suitable for even quite high-end audio systems in addition to being used with this DP.

Pete
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 09/30/10 01:03 AM

Good point galaxy. Thinking it over, the m-audio sp2 will probably be all I've ever need. I think I'll snatch that and be done with it. Thanks for your input. Appreciate it!
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/01/10 09:40 PM

Just on the Australian warranty issue again, I forgot to mention that the 5 year warranty is provided by the distributor - NOT Casio. (that's what the document I received from the distributor seems to say very clearly, anyway)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/02/10 05:57 PM

The FiiO E5 looks like a VERY VERY cheap battery operated headphone amp that may well produce sufficient volume through high impedance and/or low efficiency headphones. Seems to get positive reviews too. I might get one of these for my laptop and smartphone.

Greg.

Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/02/10 07:01 PM

Greg, my little Behringer 502 mixer arrived, but the HD-650s are still in transit ... somewhere. frown The mixer is a bit disappointing I have to say. I will try different inputs as at the moment it's basically just rigged up with the leads I had available, but the audio quality does seem to affected from what I can hear and it has quite a lot of noise for somebody used to even half reasonable equipment. Ok, maybe I was expecting a bit much, and it's not THAT bad, but I know it's also not that difficult to make it much better. At 0200 the other morning (the joys of pain killers wearing off) I pulled it apart and it won't be an easy rebuild and I'm not sure I'll be bothered messing with it. The bottom line is it sounds "ok" and I have absolutely no doubt it will happily drive those Sennheisers.

Messing about with the line outs on the Casio was a bit of a revelation, again maybe something for those considering purchase. Firstly the line out level is controlled by the volume control. Of course I have no experience with other DPs so maybe that's normal for them, but I have never come across any line level signal in any other equipment that is affected like that. The "gotta" is if you turn the volume control right down, no signal will come out ... in which case you may spend a few minutes scratching your head wondering quite why you can't hear anything through the mixer wink In other words if you were using this as a stage piano using the speakers to hear yourself, adjusting the volume on the DP will also affect the level going to the mix. I have no experience or even interest in using a DP in that scenario, but maybe some will, and it just seems bizarre to me.

As far as a headphone amp, I decided to build the kit as sold by Jaycar here in Australia, the UK and other places I believe. The design has quite a following, particularly amongst this group who call it the SCHA (Silicon Chip Headphone Amp, as it was initially published in Silicon Chip magazine) http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chitchat The design is basic enough that somebody with even basic soldering and electronics skills should be able to construct it.

I hadn't seen the portable amp you suggested until now. Indeed it does get quite good reviews, but it's really designed more towards an application where people want a headphone amp on their iPods or phones. I haven't been able to find a schematic diagram as yet, but looked at the components they're using and one can normally somewhat deduce performance from that. Since it's designed to run on batteries, both the voltage output (for high impedance headphones) and current draw is a big consideration in design. This is a "review" by a poster on head-fi that I think pretty much sums it what I would expect from it:
.
Quote:
Well, it's the best US$20 headphone amp you can get. For the low price it is great. If you have true head-fi ambitions it might not be good, but for those of us who are satisfied with a good sound and do not chase after the ultimate portable sound it is quite nice.
I own 2 Fiio E5, one through LOD from my Sansa View and one through line out in the dongle from my Creative Zen Vision M. I also bought one E5 for my wife's Creative Zen (though headphone out). Neither of the 3 players have much bass, so the E5 gives the music a stronger lower end punch and makes the overall sound a bit more full.
If you are looking for improvement of the sound quality, I do not think that the E5 is the best choice. Well, actually my wife's Creative Zen sounds much better with the E5 than without it. But I think that says more about the current SQ of Creative players...

All in all, I would recommend the E5 if you have a DAP with a poor bass response and want a bit of extra boost. While it does not improve overall SQ, at least it does not degrade it which is good.


Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/02/10 07:16 PM

Pete,
FWIW, my professional stage piano (Kawai MP9000) also has a variable output level on it's unbalanced line-outs, but if I recall correctly, the balanced outs have a fixed level. (never used them)

Yes, I imagine your kit amp would be better than this little E5 thingy. smile IF I get one, I'll let you know whether it actually boosts the signal of the PX-330 enough to use with my AKG headphones or not. The reason I mentioned it is that it actually states in the specs that it can be used with headphone impedances up to 300 ohms. (I know this is no guarantee though) The two negatives I am aware of with the E5 so far are: a) some hiss in some situations, and b) a slightly reduced channel seperation.
I'm sure it's overall specs would not be as good as more expensive units either.

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/04/10 11:21 PM

Greg, the 300 Ohm HD-650s headphones arrived and I've tried them on the PX-330. Whether something is loud enough for an individual is a very personal thing, what may be adequate for one person could be considered way too quiet for another. The HD-650 worked fine as far as I was concerned, BUT to get to the volume level I would normally like to use I needed to have the volume control "flat out", and even then I think they were somewhat softer that the Sony's I had been using. I definitely wouldn't place any money on the latter however, as the Sennheisers in situ would be somewhat lower distortion, with the corresponding affect on perceived loudness. All in all though, I wouldn't want the volume to be less and I don't think the two were a good combination without an intervening headphone amp.

It's probably not a deal-breaker for anyone considering purchasing this DP, 300 Ohm headphones are not particularly common these days, and if you did have only this type available it's not like it won't work at all. Furthermore, a DP doesn't place huge fidelity demands on any headphone, and it would be quite inexpensive to source some quite reasonable headphones in a more popular impedance and high sensitivity if you lean more towards loud reproduction.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/05/10 12:30 AM

Pete,
Thanks for the feedback, and I agree totally - it's not a show stopper by any means. I was merely posting it as a "heads up".

Just as an aside, I have some in-ear ear-buds on order which I am hoping will work on EVERYTHING I have. These are mainly for mobile use (laptop & phone), but it will be nice if they are also loud enough on the Casio. (I am almost certain they will be).

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/05/10 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Just as an aside, I have some in-ear ear-buds on order which I am hoping will work on EVERYTHING I have. These are mainly for mobile use (laptop & phone), but it will be nice if they are also loud enough on the Casio. (I am almost certain they will be).


You'd think I'd have learnt my lesson about saying what "should be" by now, but once again I'll go out on a limb and say the majority of bud-style headphones are 16/32 Ohm and will work just fine. I have some other Sony MDR-EX71 buds I use with pretty much all my portable stuff and they worked just fine on the Casio. The quality isn't great, but you'll certainly get your volume :P

Further to my previous comments, as I suspected, the way I had the little Behringer mixer wired it was indeed affecting the audio quality. I have now re-wired it correctly, and the line-out of the Casio seems to give a noticeably better quality audio output, even into that POS mixer, compared to coming straight from the Casio's headphone output. So in my opinion, if you have the Casio DP, good quality headphones (irrespective of whether they are high impedance), and are looking to improve the audio quality a tad, try feeding a headphone amp with the line-outs. I could hear that even with the Sony MDR-CD770s ... but the HD-650s were really quite nice smile
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/05/10 02:16 AM

Yes - they are 16 ohms. smile Can't remember the sensitivity at the moment but they are Creative EP 630.

I haven't compared fidelity between line-out & headphone out yet......

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/05/10 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Pete,
FWIW, my professional stage piano (Kawai MP9000) also has a variable output level on it's unbalanced line-outs, but if I recall correctly, the balanced outs have a fixed level. (never used them)


In most cases all outputs are variable in the same way.
That has a simple reason: There is no dedicated internal volume adjustment at all.
To change the volume simply the PCM values are changed before they go into the DAC or maybe the DAC's amplification is modified.
That is much cheaper to produce.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/05/10 03:02 AM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh

In most cases all outputs are variable in the same way.
That has a simple reason: There is no dedicated internal volume adjustment at all.
To change the volume simply the PCM values are changed before they go into the DAC or maybe the DAC's amplification is modified.
That is much cheaper to produce.


Ah is that right! Ok thanks for that, I guess I'm showing my age here as to how stuff "used to be done" wink I'm glad you told me that though as I noticed a couple of interesting things with the Casio volume control. The first was that it didn't seem to be properly logarithmic, and the difference in gain in the top 1/3 of the control wasn't all that much. I noticed it even on the oscilloscope, so it wasn't just my ears failing me. The other thing is that even with the volume at maximum the output doesn't get pushed into clipping. It's something one would expect to see if it was an analogue control, but makes perfect sense now you've explained that to me, so thanks again!

On a completely different note, a couple of other things I've noticed on this DP that I don't know how they compare to similarly priced competition, but I was somewhat shocked Casio bothered to model it at this price point. I've been reading a lot about real piano actions in the past week or so, and the guys on the tech forum helped steer me the right way. When I was looking at this DP I noticed the action was a bit different in regards to when a key isn't allowed to come fully up. I've since found out this is (at least audibly) simulating the double escapement action of a grand piano, where the hammer can re-strike the key without the damper having to touch the strings between the key strokes. I noticed that one at the store, but until today had no idea what it was called. The other thing is that apparently the highest strings on a real piano aren't damped. This I'm afraid I can only go by what I've read, so maybe others with experience can confirm this? Indeed I just noticed when I was testing these headphone/amps/etc that the top 1 1/2 octaves have indeed been modelled with no damping on the strings. So from 2nd top F up, if you strike the key hard it will continue to resonate. It is probably quite "ho-hum" information to you experienced people here, but it was an attention to detail I think many of the target market simply wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't there.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/05/10 07:12 PM

Pete,
I think the undamped upper strings thing is quite common now, however the double escapement is not as common, and yes, it's great that Casio have implemented this. To the best of my knowledge, Yamaha were the first to do the double escapement, but we now have Roland and Casio as well.

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 01:28 AM

I have noticed something else on this DP I'm hoping others could help me with as it's causing a bit of grief for me. Sometimes (particularly if my hands are a bit warm and moist) I find my third finger is dragging down adjacent black keys when I play. For example, playing an Eb triad in the root position, I tend to pull down the Ab key with the G. Some of it surely my crappy technique however ....

In the end I grabbed my digital callipers out and started looking at the actual key spacing and this is where things started getting strange. Firstly, there is a huge difference in spacing between the 2 black keys versus the 3 black keys (maybe 1-2 mm, and that's more than enough to get one's finger "stuck" v playing normally). Secondly, there is a difference in spacing between black keys depending on where they are on the keyboard. I think the latter is simply a QC issue at this end of the price range. Indeed if I move the black keys from side to side, some are quite tight, while others have quite a lot of lateral movement, and presumably it's this lateral movement that is manifesting itself as a difference in spacing. However what I don't know is if there is a difference in spacing between the 2/3 black keys on a decent acoustic piano?

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 09:01 AM

FWIW I have not noticed any problems with neighbouring notes being dragged down yet. The only potential problem with mine is that the strip of red felt above the keys does not seem to be actually in contact with the keys. I'm pretty sure on every digital piano I've seen, and real pianos, the keys push up against that strip of felt, don't they? Doesn't seem to be causing any problems yet - just looks a bit strange to see the gap.

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 09:38 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang

however the double escapement is not as common, and yes, it's great that Casio have implemented this. To the best of my knowledge, Yamaha were the first to do the double escapement, but we now have Roland and Casio as well.


It must however be considered that these double escapement MIDI sequences can make some serious trouble with sequencers, piano libraries and external sound modules or MIDI tools when these are not prepared for it. Unfortunately it is only a minority that is prepared for these MIDI sequences.

Therefore, if a stage piano, that is also be used as a generic MIDI controller, has this feature, then there should be a possibility to disable it ;-)
Posted by: dewster

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 11:11 AM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
It must however be considered that these double escapement MIDI sequences can make some serious trouble with sequencers, piano libraries and external sound modules or MIDI tools when these are not prepared for it. Unfortunately it is only a minority that is prepared for these MIDI sequences.

This is an issue of a controller sending (for a particular note)

3 sensor: note-on, note-on, note-off

instead of

2 sensor: note-on, note-off, note-on, note-off

correct?


Percussion controllers don't generally send note-off, do they?
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 11:59 AM

Hello dewster,

Yamaha and Casio pianos send

NoteOn
NoteOn
NoteOff
NoteOff

Reaper had problems with that.
Ableton has Problems with that.
Galaxy had problems with that. (These problems are fixed in the current update and it will probably take full advantage from these sequences in the next major update)
Synthogy has no problems with it.
Pianoteq has no problems.
Kawai CP136 has no problems with it. It even has such sequences in the inbuilt MIDI music and that was how I discovered the problems. It can, however not generate such sequences from the keyboard.

Thats all I know. I dont know what percussion machines do, sorry. If I play percussion on the keyboard, then it sends Noteoff.

The main problem is this:
Say, a pianist plays
NoteOn C Velocity 100.
Then the keyboard bounces a little bit and sends
NoteOn C Velocity 20.
This was not intended by the pianist, it just happens by bouncing.
Then the previous note is muted.

With percussion sounds this probably would not be a major problem.
It is also not a problem with 2-sensor keyboards because these dont send MIDI events when they bounce. (Provided that it is a well constructed keyboard)

With Reaper this happens:

Reaper converts the MIDI sequence during recording.
Internally it stores the notes in a Note-Velocity-Duration format. As soon as it sees a NoteOn it terminates the previous tone.
So when it receives NoteOn,NoteOn,NoteOff,NoteOff then it will record and playback NoteOn,NoteOff,NoteOn,NoteOff.
Again, with percussion instruments this will not matter. It is not totally correct, but nobody will hear a difference. If the percussion instrument ignores all NoteOffs then there is no audible difference at all.
With a piano sound this leads to muted notes even then when the VST instrument can handle NoteOn,NoteOn sequences. The VST will never see these sequences and so it cannot play them. The consequence are muted notes.

Peter
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 03:28 PM

Yes, these keyboards need a "compatibility" mode it seems. In this mode, the third sensor would still be active, but a Note-Off would automatically be inserted JUST before every partial repetition Note-Off. This would retain the benefit of being able to repeat slightly faster (and for smaller key returns) however it would have a very small and subtle disadvantage: tone generators that produce different timbres for successive, repeatedly struck strings that are not damped inbetween each strike would no longer do this. (this is typically done by simply overlapping multiple voices)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 03:36 PM

Btw, has anyone inspected the MIDI from a Roland PHAIII action yet?

Greg.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 03:53 PM

Originally Posted By: PeteF
I have noticed something else on this DP I'm hoping others could help me with as it's causing a bit of grief for me. Sometimes (particularly if my hands are a bit warm and moist) I find my third finger is dragging down adjacent black keys when I play. For example, playing an Eb triad in the root position, I tend to pull down the Ab key with the G. Some of it surely my crappy technique however ....

In the end I grabbed my digital callipers out and started looking at the actual key spacing and this is where things started getting strange. Firstly, there is a huge difference in spacing between the 2 black keys versus the 3 black keys (maybe 1-2 mm, and that's more than enough to get one's finger "stuck" v playing normally). Secondly, there is a difference in spacing between black keys depending on where they are on the keyboard. I think the latter is simply a QC issue at this end of the price range. Indeed if I move the black keys from side to side, some are quite tight, while others have quite a lot of lateral movement, and presumably it's this lateral movement that is manifesting itself as a difference in spacing. However what I don't know is if there is a difference in spacing between the 2/3 black keys on a decent acoustic piano?

Pete


Intrigued I took a look at both my Casio and Kawai. I don't have calipers just a metal tape measure and short-sighted eyes.

On the Casio it's pretty consistent to say that the gap between the black C# and D# is about 1mm on average more than the gap between the groups of 3 black keys. It's not everywhere but more times than not, so hard to say if it's by design or a manufacturing assembly tolerance thingy. The Kawai is pretty consistent overall I would say using eyes and the tape measure.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
FWIW I have not noticed any problems with neighbouring notes being dragged down yet. The only potential problem with mine is that the strip of red felt above the keys does not seem to be actually in contact with the keys. I'm pretty sure on every digital piano I've seen, and real pianos, the keys push up against that strip of felt, don't they? Doesn't seem to be causing any problems yet - just looks a bit strange to see the gap.

Greg.


Same gap on both my Casio and Kawai. I don't believe that strip of felt is functional but just for appearance, at least on these keyboards.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 04:09 PM

Maybe this bouncing effect: "Noteon with very low velocity shortly after a high velocity keystroke" could be recognized by software and surpressed. I think a real piano action cannot do this and if it could it wouldnt be audible. So it could simply been surpressed by software or firmware. This however requires a lot of fine-tuning andd I fear this is not done for digitals, only expensive acoustics get this treatment.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
Maybe this bouncing effect: "Noteon with very low velocity shortly after a high velocity keystroke" could be recognized by software and surpressed. I think a real piano action cannot do this and if it could it wouldnt be audible. So it could simply been surpressed by software or firmware. This however requires a lot of fine-tuning andd I fear this is not done for digitals, only expensive acoustics get this treatment.


I wouldn't be so sure about real pianos not doing this. Real grand pianos can repeat for quite small key returns. I have been told in the piano tech forum here that it is actually less than 50%. That's the whole point of the third sensor - to allow a digital piano to behave closer to a real grand piano.

Certainly, in my brief testing of some real grand pianos, I could repeat for quite small key returns. I didn't actually measure the returns though.

Do you see any problems with my suggestion for a compatibility mode?

Of course, it would be best if everyone just started designing for tri-sensor actions. We need to go forwards. Tri-sensor actions are just the BEGINNING - we want much more than this!

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang

Do you see any problems with my suggestion for a compatibility mode?


No. It could solve some problems with badly misbehaving software.
It would however not solve the problem that a very loud keystroke can be muted by a following very soft keybounce.
It would even prevent a software solution because it removes the information about half-releases.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh

No. It could solve some problems with badly misbehaving software.
It would however not solve the problem that a very loud keystroke can be muted by a following very soft keybounce.


I'm not very concerned about that at all. When I play a note, or a chord, very loudly, I don't notice any key bounce whatsoever. The keys are held down very firmly indeed. I don't think key bounce would occur very often at all. Even if you're right, if a very soft note is played on a real piano after a forte note, I think it could still dampen the previous note to some extent - sometimes even to a great extent, simply because the hammer itself acts as a damper when it comes into contact with the string! ;^) I suspect it's a non-issue.

Quote:
It would even prevent a software solution because it removes the information about half-releases.


I don't understand this. The whole reason for the compatibility mode is so that software that cannot interpret half-release re-strikes can be allowed to behave more normally! Once the software is fixed, we then flick the switch on our controller back to normal tri-sensor MIDI behaviour. Are you saying that if the controller provided a compatibility mode, that software designers would be lazy, and not bother to implement tri-sensor behaviour? smile

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 05:24 PM

Maybe the Casio bounces less. This would also solve the problem that I mean.
I came to this conclusion because I found this sequence Hard keystroke,Soft keybounce and no Noteoff inbetween very often in my MIDIfiles.
I played MIDIfiles quite often with Galaxy for testing purposes and for pleasure and had prematurely muted notes and found this as reason.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 05:27 PM

Peter,
Where did those MIDI files come from? AND, how do you know those soft notes were not played intentionally? (I'm not saying they were, but I'm interested to know how you can be so certain, that's all)


Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 05:32 PM

Most came from the inbuilt demos of my Kawai.
Others from Yama forums played with clavinovas.

I im certain because it sounded right with the Kawai inbuilt sound and with Ivory and sounded wrong with Galaxy and because I examined the behaviour of Galaxy and the MIDI sequences carefully.
BTW. I participated in the beta tests and reported the problems and it was improved. Next version will hopefully be fully compatible.

Edit:
Maybe the Kawai demos where originally purchased somewhere and played on a Kawai Silent piano or Yamaha Grandtouch. Dont know....
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 05:37 PM

Peter,
Thanks. What I'm also asking, though, is how you can be so certain that the player did not intentionally play those soft notes straight after the the forte notes. How do you know that those notes were not intentional.

I don't notice any bounce on my MP9000 either. The keys stay down VERY firmly if I play them forte. They do not budge.

Just out of curiousity, were the "offending" forte notes played staccato, or just normally?

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 05:41 PM

Because these bounces where so soft that normally they vanish under the preceding loud keystroke. They would not have been audible. And because I know for Example Gounods Ave Maria and these bounces had no musical sense.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 05:45 PM

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
And because I know for Example Gounods Ave Maria and these bounces had no musical sense.


That's what I was after - thanks. ;^)

It's very intriguing indeed!

I'm very curious now how much damping occurs on a real grand, for these partial-release forte/pianissimo repeats. I'm sort of expecting there to be more damping for higher notes than lower notes.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 05:50 PM

Btw, I'm not yet agreeing with you that a softly played note that is played just after a forte note should not make the note appreciably softer. I think it often should. (I may try to test this on a real piano). If I am right, that means that your MIDI files are not being interpreted correctly. ;^) (and it then follows that the original performance data, in whatever form it was in, may not have been translated properly to SMF.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 09:10 PM

I did a quick test of a real grand. I played a forte note (MF to F - I never tried FFF), and then tried my best to play a very soft note shortly afterwards, releasing the key partially so the strings were not damped. It's tricky doing subtle testing in a store, but it seems that the soft note EITHER plays at the intended, soft level, OR it plays somewhere between the intended level and the level of the decaying first note at the instant the second, soft note is played. I.e - it is possible that the volume of the first note does contribute to the volume of the soft note. Sometimes, the timbre takes on a bit of a "twang" sound for the second note, due to the fact that the hammer is striking strings that are already vibrating, and the hammer does not completely deaden the strings first.

I was never able to cause the note to be deadened to a great extent, so I was wrong about that. If there is deadening, it's pretty subtle I think.

I guess properly modelling repeatedly struck, un-damped strings might be a tricky thing to do.

Peter - re: your MIDI files, I'm wondering whether there is something wrong, somewhere. If some of them were played on a Disklavier or similar, perhaps the hammers didn't actually make contact with the strings for the soft notes? Maybe the key/hammer movement was faithfully recorded, but the fact that the hammers did not strike the strings may have been lost. (or, perhaps these MIDI files should be interpreted with a velocity curve that filters out all velocities below a certain value? Maybe the Kawai DP is doing that, and that's why it sounds normal! laugh )

If any DP I come across has "bounce", I'm really going to look into that carefully. I don't think it's right.

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
I did a quick test of a real grand. I played a forte note (MF to F - I never tried FFF), and then tried my best to play a very soft note shortly afterwards, releasing the key partially so the strings were not damped.


On a real grand, yes, it is indeed possible to strike a key, and lift it just enough to be able to strike it again without having the damper stop the vibrations between the two hits. However, I have to say, I have never run into any actual musical need to employ this subtle maneuver. In typical key re-strikes, the damper does fall and silence the strings in between the strikes (unless the pedal is down, of course).
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 09:42 PM

Agreed. It may be that only the most demanding works require it. However, it's a definite feature (double-escapement) that was added to the grand piano action, and there must be some reason for it. ;^) I have read that Erard invented this.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 09:45 PM

Note I suspect it's usually used without the player being concious of it. The player will simply be repeating extremely rapidly, and if you examine the key motion (and dampers) very closely, you will see that the key is only returning partially, and the dampers are not coming into contact with the strings. I.e - it's simply there to help the relatively slow, sluggish action of a grand piano.

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Note I suspect it's usually used without the player being concious of it. The player will simply be repeating extremely rapidly, and if you examine the key motion (and dampers) very closely, you will see that the key is only returning partially, and the dampers are not coming into contact with the strings.


I don't think so. I think that when a player repeats rapidly, even though they key may only be returning partially, it is generally still coming up enough to damp the strings.

Try this test on a grand piano: Do a very rapid multiple repeat on a note. Now do it again, but with your other hand (or a friend's hand), hold the damper up to stop it from coming back down on the strings between strikes. I bet you'll hear that it sounds very different. When you use your hand to stop the damper from descending, the fast repeats sound less distinct as one hit bleeds into the next. When you do it "normally," the damper falls between each hit, and allows each strike to sound clean, percussive, and sharp. This is the normal and desirable behavior, as far as I know.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 10:06 PM

No - I completely disagree. Yes, usually it will damp, but repeat fast enough, and it will not. This is one thing that seperates the grand piano from an upright piano. An upright piano does not have double escapement. (I think some very advanced ones might - e.g Seiler).

I DO agree that it's a subtle feature.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 10:09 PM

(I'll quote my piano tuning/technician book later, if it will help. I am not a piano tuner, but I have a book wink

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 10:28 PM

I just went through the process of trying to understand the double-escapement action as I could hear the Casio PX-330 modelling this when I demoed it, although at the time I didn't know what it was called. I believe Greg is right, on a grand piano action, the double escapement action allows a note to be re-struck without the damper re-touching the strings. While it may well have been developed to allow a higher repetition rate, I believe speed has nothing to do with that attribute, and it is purely a function of the travel of the key. There are some good on-line virtual models of the action if you do a search.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 10:40 PM

Pete,
It was done for speed. It allows the key to be pressed down again after it has returned only a certain amount. It saves time. Without the double escapement, the key has to return further up, which takes extra time, ultimately reducing the maximum repetition rate.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 10:56 PM

Btw, this probably goes without saying, but I am not trying to say that a Casio tri-sensor action will necessarily repeat faster than every, or any brand/model of two sensor action. That would be silly. However, for any given action, a tri-sensor version of the action would generally be expected to repeat faster than it would if it had only two sensors. The reason for this is that when there are only two sensors, the top sensor has to be placed in a position that results in a good compromise between repetition speed, legato, and staccato performance. With tri-sensor action, the two upper sensors can be spread out, to bring the overall behaviour of that same action a bit closer to that of a real grand piano.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/10/10 11:13 PM

Ah ha!!! I forgot about TRILLS!!! Yes, the shallower return would definitely benefit trilling!!

Extract from: http://www.learnpianofree.com/different-types-of-pianos

"One noticeable advantage that the grand piano action has over the vertical action is that all grand pianos have a special repetition lever in the playing action that is absent in all verticals. This repetition lever, a separate one for every key, catches the hammer close to the strings as long as the keys are played repeatedly and fairly quickly. In this position, with the hammer resting on the lever, a pianist can play repeated notes, staccato, and trills with much more speed and control than is possible on a vertical piano. Because of this, piano manufacturers claim that a piano player trill notes faster on a grand than on an upright."

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 01:01 AM

Greg, I understand it was developed for speed, indeed I said so in my post, however a by-product of that action is that it allows the key to be repeated without the damper touching the string. As I said, while it may have been developed FOR speed, speed is not a REQUIREMENT for the action to repeat as explained. So long as the key is not released up past a certain point the double escapement action on a grand piano will allow the key to be re-struck ad infinitum as slow or fast as desired without the damper touching the string.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 01:35 AM

Pete,
Thanks for the clarification - yes - I fully agree. (I thought we had established that a long time ago, though. )

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 02:02 AM

I think the point is this:

When the key is 50% released and stroken again, that means double escapement is in effect, then the behaviour must be the same as if sostenuto would have been active for this key.

It is clear that the second stroke will dampen the previous stroke a little bit, but not much. A very small bounce would barely touch the string and not dampen it.

The point is: the repetition behaviour with 50% releases must be the same with and without sostenuto applied because in both cases the damper does not touch the string.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Pete,
Thanks for the clarification - yes - I fully agree. (I thought we had established that a long time ago, though. )

Greg.


Well maybe I read the post by "Anotherscott" incorrectly, but the way I read that post it was suggesting there was a difference between a note struck using the double escapement feature without letting the damper settle, and striking a key while holding the damper up. I can't see there is any difference at all. Also you said
Quote:
No - I completely disagree. Yes, usually it will damp, but repeat fast enough, and it will not.

Again, maybe I'm misreading your post, but SPEED is not a factor in the action, simply how far the key is allowed to travel. You can play the notes extremely slowly and softly and so long as you give the hammer enough inertia to actually strike the strings you can do it once a minute if you like, just so long as you don't release the key up past a certain point.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 03:16 AM

Pete(H),
When I tested a real grand, the soft notes were always heard as new, distinct notes. If you are saying that they will not be heard as new notes, then I'm not sure this is correct. Obviously if they are played so softly that the hammer barely even makes contact with the string, then yes, it might not be heard at all, or perhaps it will "upset" the currently sustaining note just a little, causing a tiny twang sound, or something like that.

Also, the double-escapement point is LESS than 50%. On my Casio, it's at 36%. (just measuring one note, once). I think this will be commensurate with a real grand. (it's such an easy thing for them to get right, I don't see why it would be any different)

PeteF,
Ah, yes, I see what you are saying now. No, that's not what I meant at all. A few days ago I gave a procedure for testing for the presence of double-escapement, and this procedure involves moving the key very slowly in fact. ;^) (this was in another thread). All I meant in that post that you referred to is that if the player is lifting off the key as he repeats, and then he plays new notes, if they are playing fast enough, we will see that the keys are only returning partially. I.e, when the finger makes contact with the key again, it will be at a point in the key's return that is substantially less than a full return. That's all.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 07:16 AM

I've looked up my piano tech book, being Piano Servicing Tuning and Rebuilding, by Arthur A. Reblitz (2nd Edition).

I'll avoid quoting directly in case I'm violating copyright. Here are the main points, paraphrased:

1. A grand piano can repeat for lesser key returns than an upright piano. In an upright piano, the key has to return almost all the way to the top before a new note can be played. In a grand piano, the keys only have to return less than half way. This results in grand pianos being able to repeat faster than an upright piano.

2. The mechanism that allows the grand to repeat for these smaller key returns is called the Repetition Lever. This mechanism is not present in upright pianos.

3. The dampers are lowered to the strings when the keys are fully released.

4. Particular mention is made of soft repetitions, and trills.

5. If you watch the hammers whilst someone is slowly trilling louder and louder, you will see that the hammers start off being quite close to the strings, and then slowly move further away from the strings, as the striking distance is increased.

6. Regardless of how softly or loudly a trill is performed, a grand that is properly regulated will always repeat.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 07:57 AM

Here's a post from Kawai about full-stroke repetition rates of real grand pianos:
Repetition rate of a grand piano

Now, looking at the sheet music for Billy Joel's "Angry Young Man", this calls for repetitions at a rate of 12 per second. (this is the rate I had earlier calculated by analysing a recording!).
So, going by Kawai's info, on an average grand that can do full-stroke repeats at 10 per second, this means that A.Y.M would indeed be relying on partial key repeats in order to be able to play at the right tempo. However, on a really good piano, that can do 12 per second (or 15 for the Kawai Millenium!!!!) partial repeats would not occur, because the keys would return further. As most of us would know, A.Y.M has quite forte repeats, so we can forget about subtle pianissimo repeats for this song. ;^) (the average 10-per-second grand would be producing softer repeats than the better ones for this song - that's worth noting)

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
No - I completely disagree. Yes, usually it will damp, but repeat fast enough, and it will not.


Using your example of Angry Young Man, even at that speed, it sounds to me like the strings are damped between each hit. Maybe it's only partial damping, at that speed it would probably be impossible to tell, but the notes are not "ringing" the way they would if they were fully undamped between strikes. They are clean percussive strikes that do not exhibit the characteristics of hitting an undamped string. Again, try it yourself... hit that middle C in rapid succession and have someone grab the damper so it can't damp between hits, I think you'll find that it doesn't sound "right," as it does if you allow the damper to fall.

Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 08:34 AM

Anotherscott,
Did you read the post I just made, just before yours? smile I think it answers your question to a large extent. On an average piano, that can only do about 10 full-stroke repeats per second, partial repeats would be required. (whether they are "partial" enough that the dampers do not make any contact at all is hard to say though).

But yes, my piano book does say that the repetition lever is particularly advantageous for soft repetitions.

It's very hard for me to do the test you suggested, because I don't have ready access to a real grand piano. smile

You may well be right about the A.Y.M recording though.

EDIT: Oh, you obviously have read that post. Well, I said in that post that it depends on how good the piano is.

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 08:45 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: sullivang
No - I completely disagree. Yes, usually it will damp, but repeat fast enough, and it will not.


Using your example of Angry Young Man, even at that speed, it sounds to me like the strings are damped between each hit. Maybe it's only partial damping, at that speed it would probably be impossible to tell,


It is possible to tell that from physical laws:
If the string where completely undamped, the vibration energy would increase on every stroke until the string breaks...

Obviously this is not the case and so there must be some damping. I believe it is the hammer felt that dampens the string. The more intensive the contact between hammer felt and string is, the more damping will happen.

It does therefore not happen, that a soft stroke will dampen a previous harder stroke very much.

Peter
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 08:56 AM

Btw, I'm just listening now. I really can't be sure either way.

We need to find a Disklavier, perhaps in average non-optimum condition, play A.Y.M on it, and inspect the special extended MIDI data that it records. ;^)

Anyway, all I'm saying is that given the following:

a) grand pianos repeat for relatively shallow key returns
b) the dampers do not come into contact with the strings unless the key has returned almost all the way to the top,

then,
it is logical that if the repetition is rapid enough, even if the fingers leave the keys, then undamped repetitions MAY result, simply because the rate is rapid enough for the keys to only partially return.

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 09:01 AM

Originally Posted By: PeteF
maybe I read the post by "Anotherscott" incorrectly, but the way I read that post it was suggesting there was a difference between a note struck using the double escapement feature without letting the damper settle, and striking a key while holding the damper up. I can't see there is any difference at all


Sorry if I was unclear. I will try to clarify that point.

I was responding to the assertion that, if you repeat a note fast enough on a grand piano, the dampers will not fall back to the strings between strikes.

In that case, IF rapid repetitions of a note (with pedal up) do not allow the damper to hit the strings in between strikes, THEN rapidly repeating a note should sound exactly the same as repeating the note with a friend holding the damper off the strings.

In my test, I found that a rapid repetition did NOT sound the same as it did when I manually held the damper off the string.

Since (as you point out as well) the two scenarios should sound the same, and yet in practice they don't sound the same, my conclusion was that, even in a rapid repetition, the dampers are falling back onto the strings between strikes.

(And in case I simply wasn't repeating fast enough to get the desired behavior, I pointed out that, in listening to Angry Young Man, it still sounds to me like there is string damping between strikes, since I don't hear the characteristics of re-hitting an undamped string.)
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 09:03 AM

Anotherscott - yes - play faster, or find a faster player.

OR - find a grand piano that is not as fast. They are not all equal, as I said. smile

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 09:05 AM

(I'm reminded of the Nissan vs Porsche war, where Porsche said that they could not get within coo-ee of Nissan's lap time in Nissan's new GTR. ;^ ;^)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 09:20 AM

I've just inspected the MIDI from my Casio PX-330, when playing in the A.Y.M alternating hands fashion. There are undamped repetitions almost immediately. (I was playing as fast as I could though, and it may well have been slightly faster than 12 per second)

Of course, my Casio may well have an action that is slower than most grand pianos. ;^) Maybe it's not even as fast as most uprights. I would not be at all surprised.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 09:29 AM

Here's my MIDI file:
http://www.box.net/shared/nh6bzfl4ar

and the MP3:
http://www.box.net/shared/qmqke1rc22

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 09:29 AM

Look to this video, preferabbly with slow motion or manual frame selection:
http://material.miyazaki-c.ed.jp/ipa/piano_sangyo/oto_dukuri/action/s1ma21.mpg

It is visible that:
The damper lifts.
The hammer hits the string.
The string moves faster than the damper and thus the string hits the damper ;-)

The damper bounces back.
Unfortunately the video only shows a single stroke, not a repetition, but it can be imagined what complex events can possibly happen on a repetition....
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 09:38 AM

Very interesting indeed!

RE: my repetition test, I see that despite some undamped ones early on, almost all of them are normal repeats. (just quickly scrolling down, I think there's only three occasions where they occur, and it's possible that they occur more due to sloppy technique than sheer speed)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 10:13 AM

Bingo! (yes?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX3kiA-qrU

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 12:42 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
I've just inspected the MIDI from my Casio PX-330, when playing in the A.Y.M alternating hands fashion. There are undamped repetitions almost immediately.


That's an interesting test. But I'm not sure it really tells us what is going on internally. The MIDI stream may tell you that your fast key repetition is sending an additional NOTE ON without first sending a NOTE OFF (an undamped repetition), but what is the Casio doing internally when it receives that second NOTE ON? i.e. ---

* It is generating a second instance of triggering the same sample, in addition to allowing the first sample to continue to ring? or...

* It is generating a second instance of triggering the same sample but, in the process, it is silencing what would otherwise the be the continued sound of the first sample?

If it is the latter, it would match what I feel is "typical" piano behavior (I know, we disagree about that). If it is the former, it might more closely match the behavior you're looking for, but still wouldn't be quite authentic, since "overlaying" an additional sample is not quite the same, sonically, as re-exciting a string that is already vibrating. To duplicate that effect, Casio would need an additional entire set of samples. i.e. the sound of a key being struck with the string undamped. (Note that this is not the same as the sound of the key being struck with the pedal down, since that would product a whole bunch of other sympathic vibrations from strings of other undamped keys.)
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: PeteF
maybe I read the post by "Anotherscott" incorrectly, but the way I read that post it was suggesting there was a difference between a note struck using the double escapement feature without letting the damper settle, and striking a key while holding the damper up. I can't see there is any difference at all


Sorry if I was unclear. I will try to clarify that point.

I was responding to the assertion that, if you repeat a note fast enough on a grand piano, the dampers will not fall back to the strings between strikes.

In that case, IF rapid repetitions of a note (with pedal up) do not allow the damper to hit the strings in between strikes, THEN rapidly repeating a note should sound exactly the same as repeating the note with a friend holding the damper off the strings.

In my test, I found that a rapid repetition did NOT sound the same as it did when I manually held the damper off the string.

Since (as you point out as well) the two scenarios should sound the same, and yet in practice they don't sound the same, my conclusion was that, even in a rapid repetition, the dampers are falling back onto the strings between strikes.

(And in case I simply wasn't repeating fast enough to get the desired behavior, I pointed out that, in listening to Angry Young Man, it still sounds to me like there is string damping between strikes, since I don't hear the characteristics of re-hitting an undamped string.)


I can't comment on your test nor what you hear, however this link may help explain things. http://www.piano.christophersmit.com/actionDetail.html

The link at the bottom provides an animation of the action, including the ability to repeat a note using the double escapement facility. There is absolutely no doubt the damper does not touch the strings if the note is repeated after being only partially released, there is no difference between repeating a note in this way versus either pressing the sustain pedal down or physically holding the damper up.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 06:43 PM

Anotherscott,
I agree with you that usually, when one is repeating rapidly, but forte (where the fingers leave the keys), the repetitions are probably USUALLY full-stroke, and damped. If one is playing like this, but right on the bleeding edge where the repetitions are partial (and either undamped, or partially damped), I suspect it's a very risky situation, and some repeats may be a bit too rapid, and simply not be heard at all. As I said, my piano book does seem to say that the double-escapement is more for soft repetitions & trills than forte repetitions. Looking at various live performances of Billy Joel playing AYM, I see that sometimes he does play much slower. Perhaps he only plays at a speed at which he is very confident that the piano he is playing at the time can perform FULL stroke repetitions.

Now, regarding the SOUND for partial repetitions, I can't hear the Casio doing anything fancy at all yet. (I'll have a closer listen later). When I tested a Clavinova, yes, I thought I could hear the slight chorussing sound of multiple, overlapped voices. Further, a Clavinova owner has reported that if multiple Note-Ons are sent to it, but only ONE Note-Off at the end of the repeat sequence, the note continues to ring. This strongly suggests that it does overlap voices, and needs a Note-Off for every sustaining voice. (this was in another forum) Both the Yamaha and the Casio do balance the Note-Ons and Note-Offs. I'm assuming Roland will be the same but I have yet to see any reports.

My understanding is that almost all DPs simply overlap voices for repeated notes with the sustain pedal down, and IMHO this actually sounds quite realistic. I'm not convinced that even Pianoteq does anything differently to this - it doesn't sound any more authentic than the results of overlapping. (moreover, I can see that Pianoteq does consume more voices for repeated notes, which is a bit of evidence to suggest that it does use the standard voice overlap method)

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: PeteF
There is absolutely no doubt the damper does not touch the strings if the note is repeated after being only partially released, there is no difference between repeating a note in this way versus either pressing the sustain pedal down or physically holding the damper up.


Yes, and that is consistent with what I've said as well.

In addition, I agree with your earlier statement, "SPEED is not a factor in the action, simply how far the key is allowed to travel." Whether the damper falls between strikes is a function of how high you lift your finger before restriking, not a function of how fast you play, which is why I was taking issue with the talk about it being related to speed of repetition. Angry Young Man has fast repetition, but he is lifting his fingers so high off the keys between each strike that it sounds to me like he gets a full release rather than a partial release. I think keys can return very quickly indeed, and the only thing that prevents a key from always fully returning before a re-strike is the inability of the pianist to raise his finger high enough before the re-strike. (Billy Joel accomplishes it by using two hands for that part.) I suspect that having the string damped before re-strike is actually usually the desired behavior, and the fact that some trills or same-key-different-finger hits may actually re-trigger a note at such a low travel point that the damper doesn't fall might even be an unfortunate by-product of the mechanism that allows a key to be re-triggered at such a low point in the first place.

Also, just pointing out for accuracy's sake (and I'm sure you know this)... when you say "there is no difference between repeating a note in this way versus either pressing the sustain pedal down or physically holding the damper up" -- there is the difference in that, when the sustain pedal is down, you will get a sonically different result because of all the other undamped strings that will resonate.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 10:40 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Of course, my Casio may well have an action that is slower than most grand pianos. ;^) Maybe it's not even as fast as most uprights. I would not be at all surprised.


I think you're right... I think most DPs (at least the lower cost ones that I'm familiar with) return more slowly than a typical grand.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 10:44 PM

Anotherscott,
I'm not yet convinced that it's impossible for a player to play rapidly enough such that he lifts his finger off completely, and then restrikes it, before the key has returned sufficiently to damp the strings. It MIGHT only be possible on an average piano, not a very good one, and it might take special skill.

I've already posted a YouTube clip of someone who I think, just maybe, is playing that fast. (it's a shame there is so much reverb though)

Anyway, on my little plastic Casio, I have already kind of proven that it's possible. ;^) (it's hard to prove that it wasn't just poor technique - I need a high speed camera, which by the way I see are becoming quite affordable)

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 10:53 PM

Also, remember that Billy Joel is using alternating hands. There is nothing whatsoever preventing undamped repetitions, because the two fingers can play the same note VERY VERY fast. I.e, maybe sometimes the second finger/hand comes down JUST AFTER the finger that played the previous note. Even if it's not often sustainable, I'd be surprised if it didn't happen sometimes, and when it does, it's a better result than it would be on an upright piano. When this "accident" occurs on an upright piano, no repetition will occur whatsoever.

GReg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 11:06 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
I'm not yet convinced that it's impossible for a player to play rapidly enough such that he lifts his finger off completely, and then restrikes it, before the key has returned sufficiently to damp the strings. It MIGHT only be possible on an average piano, not a very good one


Even if it's possible that, on an inferior design, one could re-strike a key from that level of lift and manage to re-trigger it before the damper could fall, I'm sure you'd agree, there would be no point in building the duplication of such a flaw into a DP. And really, the more we've talked about this, the more I'm convinced that the ability of a DP to re-trigger a key without damping it is of pretty much no importance, even though, yes, it is an effect that can occur on a real grand in the right circumstances.

First, it seems to rarely come into play. Second, it's a very subtle effect, one you can't always even be sure whether or not you're hearing. Third, you suggest that the effect may be more or less pronounced on different grands... and moreover, upright pianos don't do it at all, so it's hardly a criteria for creating a "real" piano sound. (If I had a DP that sounded as good as some of the fine uprights I've played, I'd be thrilled!) There are just so many more substantial areas where the typical DP can be improved, that this is so minor in comparison.

I think the main issue is for keys to be able to be quickly repeated, and I think the "third sensor" is really a way to try to get around the fact that DP keys typically just don't come up as fast as real piano keys do, so that repetitions far slower than "Angry Young Man" have still been problematic on many DPs.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 11:17 PM

Anotherscott,
As we have seen from the text in my piano tech book, the double escapement mechanism is present to allow repeats with relatively small key returns. Even if you don't think this has any benefit for vigorous repetition, it does have a very definite benefit for subtle, pianissimo repetitions, and trills.

It's very simple. Without the double escapement, the key has to be lifted further, and the hammer is also released to a greater extent - i.e - the hammer is further away from the strings. This took more time than it would have on a grand piano. Now, the player wants to play another repetition, and again, softly. He has to press down on the key softly to create the soft note, and again, since the key, and hammer, have to move further, this takes more time than it would have on a grand piano. On a grand piano, the double escapement catches the hammer, and prevents it from being released very far away from the strings, at least until the player lifts off further.

Now, assuming that we are trying to make digital pianos behave as closely to a grand piano as possible, the addition of the third sensor makes OVERWHELMING sense to me. On a tri-sensor action, the player will be able to play in a similar fashion to the way they would on a grand piano. That's a plus, a benefit.

Again, I totally agree that it's subtle. I have never advised anyone to place a big importance on this feature. I merely mention the presence of this feature.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 11:25 PM

Also, just to reiterate, the reason we can't simply use two sensors, and put the top sensor at a very low key release point, is presumably because we also have to take into account legato and staccato behaviour. If the top sensor is way down low, it will be too difficult to play legato, and staccato notes may be TOO staccato. So, a two-sensor action has to place the top sensor in a position of reasonable compromise. A tri-sensor action does not have to make this compromise.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 11:36 PM

And regarding very high standard grands, with extremely fast actions, I suppose the reason it would still makes sense to have the double escapement is because it saves effort for the pianist, because he does not have to move his fingers as far as he does on an upright piano. (e.g for trilling)

Greg.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Anotherscott,
As we have seen from the text in my piano tech book, the double escapement mechanism is present to allow repeats with relatively small key returns. Even if you don't think this has any benefit for vigorous repetition, it does have a very definite benefit for subtle, pianissimo repetitions, and trills.


I agree with you that it is beneficial to permit repetitions with small-travel returns; I only differ in that I think the issue of such a repeated note being undamped vs. damped is not of great significance.
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/11/10 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Also, just to reiterate, the reason we can't simply use two sensors, and put the top sensor at a very low key release point, is presumably because we also have to take into account legato and staccato behaviour. If the top sensor is way down low, it will be too difficult to play legato, and staccato notes may be TOO staccato. So, a two-sensor action has to place the top sensor in a position of reasonable compromise. A tri-sensor action does not have to make this compromise.


I understand the benefit of the three-sensor approach; I just don't assume that's necessarily the only way to achieve the desired results. Which gets back to what I said early on (in the other related thread, I believe)... that I can imagine that there may well be 2-sensor models from some manufacturers that permit a faster repeat than the 3-sensor Casio PX-130 or whatever, due to other design parameters. So if fast repeat was a big consideration for me, I would judge by which one actually had the better repeat capability, rather than by looking at the spec sheet to find out which had a third sensor. Just like you can't assume that a given 6-cylinder car will out-perform every 4-cylinder car, you have to look at the real world results, not just the technologies.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 12:01 AM

Anotherscott,
re: the Casio not necessarily being any faster than any other two-sensor model, I agree, and I had already stated this in an earlier reply in this thread:

earlier post

It's not just about raw speed though - it's overall behaviour.

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I agree with you that it is beneficial to permit repetitions with small-travel returns; I only differ in that I think the issue of such a repeated note being undamped vs. damped is not of great significance.


That may well be your opinion, and that's fair enough, however it's possible you're missing the whole point as to why I posted the information on the actions. That is what a real grand piano does with regards the double escapement action and the motion of the dampers. This Casio range models that attribute accurately. Now you personally may feel it's not important, nobody can argue with that opinion, nevertheless clearly some think it's important or they wouldn't bother modelling it! I'll be perfectly honest and say that personally I noticed it when I first touched the keyboard, and I hadn't played a note in something like 30 years!! Indeed it's what sent me off to learn as much as I could about the piano actions as I was surprised Casio bothered modelling this. Now for me personally, with my "seek and destroy" method of playing, I still think it's novel if I happen to hit the occasional correct note so I sure as heck wouldn't miss it! On the other hand I can easily imagine someone with a little more ... errr "finesse" than I, may want to sustain specific notes when repeating them.

Pete
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 12:40 AM

Pete,
If you noticed that, without first being initiated in any way, I think that's quite incredible. smile

Just as an aside, I have used software (the Lounge Lizard electric piano modelling software) that does, or at least, USED TO, model the sound of a hammer hitting a tine/reed that is vibrating. It was quite authentic - the timbre and volume of the tone did jump around a lot. However, sometimes the repetitions were way too loud, and I see that this behaviour has been completely disabled now. ;^) (it doesn't even use voice overlapping, so repeated notes with the sustain pedal sound very bland indeed.)

Greg.
Posted by: PeteF

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 02:34 AM

Greg, I fear the only time "incredible" should be used in context of my piano playing is when it's immediately proceeded with the word "bad" laugh Seriously though, maybe it's a product of too much time as a kid playing WITH the piano rather than playing the piano, as it seemed quite obvious to me. I was in the "showroom" (for lack of better description, I won't say where, but what a dump!) just striking keys on the few models they had on display and listening to the sound. When I got to the PX-130 I heard this straight away when I repeated with a light touch. Then I saw that it was actually when the key didn't come all the way up and I thought, "hey that's what my old (real) piano used to do". Given that none of the other keyboards I looked at in this price range did that, I bought the PX-330 on the spot. So while the feature may not be important to some, I can say without reservation that it led to at least ONE sale wink
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 03:24 AM

Was your piano a grand, or an upright? I'm wondering whether even an upright can repeat without damping, but just at a higher point in the return. I have an old Wurlitzer electric piano (in an unknown state of regulation!), and it damps only when the keys are RIGHT at the top of their travel. A bit before this, yes, it can repeat.

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 03:35 AM

@Sullivang:

In the galaxy pianos and probably in other hardware and software pianos too, there is a "repetition killer".
That means -in the case of Galaxy- after the 4th one-note-repetition it starts killing notes to prevent too much overlayed notes. This wouldnt make sense because older notes are not audible but cost a lot of ressources.

I reviewed your MIDI and have seen that the first four notes are the only double escapement repetitions.
It would be interesting to test how many half stroke repetitions it can do. It should be clear, that it cannot send 100 NoteOns and then when the key is finally released, send 100 NoteOffs. Infinite nesting is impossible.

Can you test this?

Peter
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 03:59 AM

Yes, the repetition killer makes a lot of sense. And yes, I have been wondering what the limit would be, too, however I wasn't going to bother testing it, because it would be so rare in practise to do so many partial repetitions. smile If I bother to test it, I'll certainly report back.

I count 6 occurrences of partial repetitions in my MIDI, at the following times: 3160, 10527, 13469, 17086, 18713, 27000.
Something interesting happens at 18713: there are 2 Note-Ons, only 1 Note-Off, a Note-On, and then 2 Note-Offs. It's balanced, but it's interesting that it doesn't always send the balancing Note-Offs as an atomic unit.

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 04:06 AM

I viewed it with MIDI OX and had different results.
I played it with the Kawai sequencer from floppy.
Will try to analyze it with GNMIDI when I am home again.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 04:18 AM

Sorry Peter - I think I know what the problem is - I assumed that all my repetitions were on the one note. They were not - I was sloppy. I ignored the note number. You're almost correct - I have revised the count down to 2:

Time 3160 (3 reps)
Time 10527 (2 reps)

Ignore my previous comment about the balancing Note-Offs being out of order.

Greg.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 04:32 AM

Note that that MIDI isn't as fast as I can play, now that I think about it. It's as fast as I could play the PX-330 with reasonable consistency. I can play faster than the Casio allows when using the alternating hand method. (I'm pretty confident that it's not my technique) I'd love to have a high speed camera so I could prove whether it was my fault or the Casio's fault. ;^)

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 04:46 AM

Thanks for the correction and for the MIDI file and your work.
I will keep this and use it for future beta testing with Galaxy ;-)
Thats the reason why I analyzed it, I want to understand what happens.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 05:28 AM

You're welcome. smile

I've just tried another test. Recalling that post I referred to by Kawai, which said that an average grand can be expected to do 10 full stroke reps per second, I decided to try this on the Casio.
I set the metronome to 150 bpm, and played 16th-note reps.
Most reps were clean, but no matter how hard I concentrated, I could not produce a constant, consistent, stream of reps. Every now and then, something happens and it skips a rep. Again - this could be me. I can play at this speed (using alternating hands) very easily, so I'm certainly not strained at all, but my technique may not be good.

Greg.
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 10/12/10 05:45 AM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
I'd love to have a high speed camera so I could prove whether it was my fault or the Casio's fault. ;^)

You could record the keyboard noise with a microphone and see if the audio matches. It would probably be helpful to remove low frequencies to have only the click-clack noises....
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/08/10 08:41 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Originally Posted By: NoFingers
What about something like this? Think that may work?

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/p...ELAID=578549420


Maybe, but I think it would require a splitter cable, because these Casios have two seperate pedal inputs - not a dual input.
(yes, it ALSO has a seperate proprietry input for the Casio 3-pedal unit)

Greg.


Not meaning to respond to an old post, but my M-audip sp2 broke. So long story short I'm looking at that Studiologic Dual pedal again. So you think the open polarity 2/mono jack version of that pedal will work with my Casio px330? I can't think of a reason it would not... but I thought I would ask here before I purchase. Hope this one lasts me a bit longer!!!

Oh, and as an afterthought - I did like the SP2. It functioned well for me until the metal pin in the pedal bent and snapped. I think it may have been faulty out of factory.
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/09/10 04:53 PM

Nobody knows? Or Agree's?

Really need a new damper... =(
Posted by: hpeterh

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/09/10 05:05 PM

Hi,

if the Casio has the same 2 mono plugs and is normal open too, then I see no reason against it. It should work.

So far I know Fatar has also double pedals that have /one/ stereo plug. Be sure to choose the correct Fatar model.
Posted by: NoFingers

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/09/10 06:12 PM

Thank you Hpeterh. The Fatar double pedal that has 2 mono jacks is the Studiologic VFP-2/10MP.

I've seen that they make it with stereo, and with open and closed versions. I think the MP version is the one I want.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/14/10 07:32 PM

One of the keys on my PX-330 has developed a reasonably loud "clack". The clack occurs when the key is released. The key is still functioning fine, but I find this sound objectionable.
It's the first E below middle C. I've only had it for 2 months, and it's had light use.

Greg.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/14/10 11:16 PM

It might be the felt used on the lower damper has been beaten flat on that key. I had a similar issue with the E above middle C on my Casio. Other keys eventually started getting noisy, almost chattering. I ended up fixing it myself. Instead of felt, I used two strips of door/window foam insulation sold at Home Depot or Lowes. I glued the strips one on top of the other than glued it to the lower half of the case. The foam seems to be a suitable replacement for the felt. I also took a strip of this stuff and put it under the overhang that covers the backs of the keys. My piano did not have any felt in this area as Casio used to leave this out on their older pianos. It's a lot quieter now.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/14/10 11:37 PM

Thanks Galaxy4t. It seems a bit worrying that I have "beaten it flat" in only two months though! If they don't fix it under warranty, I'll open it up and try your suggestion.

My 9 year old Kawai MP9000 does have a few clacks too, but they're note quite as loud as the Casio clack, and the Kawai does it on the down-stroke, whereas the Casio does it on the up-stroke. It's not as distracting when it's on the down-stroke IMHO. Also, it's only recently that the Kawai started to clack - it went for years and years without any problems at all.

Greg.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 11/15/10 12:08 AM

Mine only took 4 months to develop the clacking and I was only using mine for 2-4 hours a week as it was outside in the garage for the first 6 months before it got moved in the house. I'm sure they will fix yours under warranty. I just didn't want to be without my piano and have them tell me it was normal to make the clacking sound and do nothing to fix it. I got rather attached to it and still am after nearly 2 years of owning it. Would be hard to live without.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/20/10 07:04 PM

They sort of fixed the clacking problem (yes, under warranty), but now it has a different type of clack - it clacks on the downstroke instead of the upstroke. It's very loud when I do repetitions, and I'm not happy with it. Some other notes have this too, in fact, but the key they replaced is the worst, and it's also the key I will use the most out of the ones that clack. (it's the E immediately below middle C).

They're going to replace the entire key assembly for me next. I don't feel optimistic.

Greg.
Posted by: OhioBuckeye

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/20/10 07:46 PM

Just curious how are you shipping/delivering this to Casio? And who is paying for it the shipping?

OB
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/20/10 08:42 PM

I take it to the service agent myself. (they're in my area)

Greg.
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/20/10 11:17 PM

If there are more than just one key making noise, perhaps you should ask them to replace the entire keybed? If the local shop will not do this, I think I would contact Casio.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/20/10 11:35 PM

Yes, they are going to do just that. (I didn't make myself totally clear - I said "key assembly", when I really meant "key bed" - sorry).

Thanks,
Greg.
Posted by: Vectistim

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/21/10 04:31 AM

With mine (PX330), I let them repair it once (it was worse after repair), so then I didn't want them to try repairing it again and insteaded on a replacement machine, which they did and the replacement has been fine.
Posted by: spanishbuddha

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/21/10 05:08 PM

My opinion is that Casio support need to make sure that their support engineers are also players. Then the engineers can properly test their keyboard repairs. Maybe this applies to all brands too.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/21/10 08:30 PM

It's a bit tricky, because sometimes the problem is not consistent. For example, even though my key was consistently clunking at home, when I took it in for repair, it did not clunk straight away, and I had to play the note a bit before the problem occurred again.
They allowed me to talk directly to the technician that worked on my unit, and without going into any detail about our discussion, I really don't have any complaints about the technician at all.

Anyway, I hope I can get the clunking sorted, because I do actually like the PX-330 quite a lot.

Greg.
Posted by: bluebilly

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/22/10 07:36 AM

-
It's a shame Casio can't get the keyboards on the Privia range up to scratch, I'm referring mainly to the wobbly, toy like, feel to the keyboard rather than any faults which may develop after use. I bought my youngest granddaughter a used Casio AP-25 to thrash around on until she shows some promise, the keyboard on that model is excellent and that piano is a really old model, I'm guessing around 10 years old, what went wrong with the Privia design?
-
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/22/10 05:11 PM

I haven't had any problems with wobbling keys yet. I really like the action in general. I'm learning a tricky piece at the moment which has some delicate "crushed" passing notes up on the black keys, and the Casio is easier to play than my MP9000. It's hard to say with any certainty exactly why it's better, but in general I don't need to play these notes as "deliberately" on the Casio as I have to on the MP9000. It's entirely possible that the MP is more like a real piano though. ;^)

Greg.
p.s The piece is "Babooshka" by Kate Bush, which appears to be in Ab minor. It is contemptible to try and reproduce her voice on a piano - I realise that. ;^)
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 12/23/10 11:20 PM

re: the black key issue, I tried a real grand briefly, and I thought it felt more difficult than the Casio, but easier than the MP9000. I think that key length issue we have recently discussed might be contributing to this - I am playing near the back of the key, softly and rapidly, and with my weak 4th finger. I am also holding other notes with the same hand, which makes it more difficult. I really noticed the inertia of the grand's keys after playing the Casio. There is no risk of me turning into a concert pianist if I were to play the Casio exclusively I don't think. smile

Greg.
Posted by: Texas Ross

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 01/25/11 02:43 PM

My PX 130 arrived yesterday.

In a word, I am thrilled!

I don't have the budget (yet) for something bigger/better/fancier, so this was in itself a big step.

I love the action.

The sound thru the speakers is decent and thru headphones really quite nice. (My wife bought me the headphones 'as a hint')

Ross
Posted by: jrcallan

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 01/25/11 07:27 PM

What's to say? Knock yourself out. I've been enjoying my Casio AP-45 for three years, and it's still ticking.

Have a ball!
Posted by: MartyOCS

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 04/22/12 07:26 AM

Hi guys, newbie here, I want to get my first digital piano and budget wise, the px 130 can really do it for me. Problem is, I can get more features with the px330 for $200+ extra,now here is my concern:
1. How far I'll be limited with the USB MIDI on the px130?
2. Can I record a song and transfer it to my pc? and bring it back again?
3. Can I import songs from my pc and play it on the px130? (other than .midi files)

one last thing, px130 can only record 1 song, 2 tracks while px330 can store 5 songs and 16 tracks, will, I didn't get how this works but here's my opinion:
px130:
1 song ( combining maximum of two tracks -two layers played separately)
px330:
5 songs ( combining maximum of 16 tracks - 16 layers played separately, so storing five songs in total with each that can get up to 16 tracks)

Am I right?
Posted by: galaxy4t

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 04/22/12 07:47 PM

As I understand it, there is a limit on the number of notes only. You have a total of 16 tracks to work with to put your songs together. I think I would just do basic stuff with the on board sequencer and transfer that to computer so you can add other better sounds, effects, etc.
Posted by: CarloPiano

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 04/23/12 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By: MartyOCS
1. How far I'll be limited with the USB MIDI on the px130?


You'll have no problem in connecting your DP to a computer but with only USB I think it's not easy connecting it to another keyboard (unless there is a USB to MIDI adapter, I don't know if this exists)

Quote:
2. Can I record a song and transfer it to my pc? and bring it back again?


Yes. You can connect your DP to a computer trough USB in storage mode and it will behave as a disk drive so you can copy, paste files.

Quote:
3. Can I import songs from my pc and play it on the px130? (other than .midi files)


I'm not sure about this.

Quote:
one last thing, px130 can only record 1 song, 2 tracks while px330 can store 5 songs and 16 tracks, will, I didn't get how this works but here's my opinion:
px130:
1 song ( combining maximum of two tracks -two layers played separately)
px330:
5 songs ( combining maximum of 16 tracks - 16 layers played separately, so storing five songs in total with each that can get up to 16 tracks)

Am I right?


Yes smile
Posted by: anotherscott

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 04/23/12 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: MartyOCS
1. How far I'll be limited with the USB MIDI on the px130?

If you're using a computer, not at all. However, if you want to connect the PX130 to another MIDI keyboard (or sound module) without getting a computer involved, you won't be able to do that (or, at least, not without an adapter that costs over $100). There is also a long term compatibility issue. Serial, parallel, SCSI, and other ports have come and gone, but standard MIDI has remained a standard for 30 years. Ten years from now, will computers still have USB? Who knows? But it's a pretty safe bet that there will still be some way to connect standard MIDI.
Posted by: MartyOCS

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 04/24/12 04:57 AM

thanks guys on your quick response, I guess I'm going with PX330, extra $200 seems worth it for the features.. shall I be aware of something ahead?? power adapter is included,right?
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 01/31/14 06:44 AM

[THREAD BUMP]

I may as well dump this here:

I decided to have a go on my old Kawai MP9000, after having played my PX-330 exclusively for a very long time. The MP9000 has an early form of Kawai's "premium" style of wooden action (hammers above the keys - not the folded underneath style). The main reason was to see how it went with a particular rapid repeat I was finding challenging on the PX-330, consisting of alternating thumbs on a black key. (possibly bad technique, but that's the way I want to play it). I tried very hard, but almost always, I failed to do the repeat on the Kawai. However, I then had a bit of a noodle round on the Kawai, and to my great surprise, the action did not feel much heavier than the Casio, and it was actually easy and comfortable to play. I really expected to have a lot of trouble, because I thought the Kawai had a much heavier action than the Casio.

I then went back to the Casio, and yes, I could still do this particular repeat much easier. (not 100% reliably though - needs more practise). Inspecting the MIDI, it's not the third sensor that is making it easier - I recorded the repeat for a few goes and none of them had any third-sensor repeats in the MIDI stream.

This is just a tidbit of feedback. I realise it's not fair to compare such an old/used keyboard with a much newer, and less used one.

Greg.
Posted by: digipianocompare

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 03/13/14 11:32 AM

Here are the reviews for the updated versions of these digital pianos from the folks at digitalpianocompare:

- Casio PX-150: http://www.digitalpianocompare.co.uk/casio-px-150-digital-piano-review
- Casio PX-350: http://www.digitalpianocompare.co.uk/casio-px-350-digital-piano-review
- Casios PX-730, PX-735 and PX-750: http://www.digitalpianocompare.co.uk/casio-px-730-casio-px-735-casio-px-750-digital-piano-review/
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews - 06/22/14 03:45 AM

My PX-330 is in for repairs (the action needs to be replaced in it's entirety - will take 4 weeks for the replacement action to arrive - fortunately it's still under warranty), so I've lugged my 13 year old 73lb Kawai MP9000 back up on the stand.

But, here's a tad more bit of evidence that the Casio action is assisting me in some way - I found another song for which the repeats were simply not happening on the Kawai, when I played in the same way as I played on the Casio. I don't know whether it's the third sensor on the Casio, or whether it's just the lighter action, but it feels like I need to lift my fingers further on the Kawai. Whatever is happening, it's definitely more effort on the Kawai. The repeats aren't super rapid - it's just a finger lifting effort issue, in my opinion. (it's the boom-di-di, boom-di-di bass line of Madona's "Hung Up" - I don't think I have the strength to stamina to play the entire song on either action, mind you - it's just too repetitive)

Greg.