Preview of Roland products 2010?

Posted by: Andree

Preview of Roland products 2010? - 10/31/09 11:30 AM

Hi!

Is there anyone who knows something about Roland releases 2010?

/Andrée
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 10/31/09 12:32 PM

Absolutely. Roland would know!

Lawrence
Posted by: Tony Lau

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/06/09 01:22 AM

Here they come:

Google Translated Roland News Release on HP Series

There is mention of some new technology to make the sound even more expressive and natural, and of course the PHA III for the HP307.

Wonder how they would compare with the Kawai CA63 and CA93!
Posted by: AlphaTerminus

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/06/09 01:31 AM

So it looks like their new products are going to be hybrid: sampling combined with modeling?
Posted by: marimorimo

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/06/09 03:08 AM

Yes, they did say that it incorporates technology from the V Piano and that the new models can achieve dynamics and tone previously unachievable with purely sampled instruments.

This has got me really excited even though I just bought a Casio PX-730 smile Imagine the possibilities a few years down the road when I've outgrown my DP! (hopefully I'll have an acoustic by then, too. But I love the convenience of digitals).
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/06/09 03:18 AM

Excellent!

These new instruments look terrific, and with the PHAIII action and 'Super Natural Piano Sound' engine, I'm sure they will sound and play incredibly well too.

Congratulations to Roland for once again raising the bar! I shall look forward to playing these new instruments in the coming weeks.

Cheers,
James
x
Posted by: Andree

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/06/09 06:40 AM

HP307 looks fantastic, what do you think about the price of this machine?
Posted by: Bunneh

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/06/09 10:15 AM

The interface still looks absolutely horrid with that 3 digit display. Every time I sit down at my piano, I am completely amazed how utterly, intolerably bad the interface for those digitals is.

If you look at any cellphone, PC or MP3 player made in the last decade, you'll find better options than "to save your song, press the 3D and Dynamics keys at the same time, then press internal song, then press "+", then press Play, then +/- for the save slot, then Play, then Record". To record a new song to the temporary buffer, press internal song, press right, press record, press left".

I get sooo worked up on this topic, sorry wink
Posted by: Vid_w

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/06/09 10:48 AM

the HP 302 sounds awesome! The only thing that concerns me are the Speakers, but they say that it's capable of producing sounds as loud as the older models...

Anyway, any idea when they'll start selling?
Or about the prices?
I think the HP302 should be somwhere in between HP 203 and 201, righT?
Posted by: sieg66

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 08:14 AM

Only the hp 307 has the new keyboard (pha III). From what I have seen, the major difference is in the way the escapment works (you can reach the hard point and still can get a sound if you press firmly, as for a real piano, a thing you cannot do with pha II).

They also claimed when V piano was announced that keys can repeat faster, but I have not noticed a big difference when I tried the V piano.
Posted by: sullivang

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: sieg66
(you can reach the hard point and still can get a sound if you press firmly, as for a real piano, a thing you cannot do with pha II).


Sieg - can you please elaborate? I don't understand what you mean by this.

Greg.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 10:18 AM

Supernatural Piano Sound...

Wonder what that really means.
Posted by: Melodialworks Music

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 12:15 PM

Interesting to note the first year sales projections, for the various models.

Lawrence
Posted by: Tony Lau

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 02:18 PM

Originally Posted By: sullivang
Originally Posted By: sieg66
(you can reach the hard point and still can get a sound if you press firmly, as for a real piano, a thing you cannot do with pha II).


Sieg - can you please elaborate? I don't understand what you mean by this.

Greg.


Hi Greg, I guess this is what Sieg meant ...

In an acoustic piano, when you press the key down slowly, at some point you'll feel some resistance before you reach the bottom of the key. This is caused by the escapement mechanism (that allows the hammer to be stay away from the string at the end of playing a note). If you continue to press down at that point, usually you cannot make a sound, unless you press very hard.

According to Sieg, PHA III is able to simulate the above behavior whereas with PHA II, once you reach the escapement point, you cannot make a sound no matter how hard you press the key.

Hi Sieg,

Could you share with us where you learned about this difference between PHA III and PHA II?

Thanks,
Tony
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Supernatural Piano Sound...
Wonder what that really means.
It's market speak. It means "let's get people excited, while making no claims whatever."

I can't lend much credence to promotional material. We'll only know more when we get a chance to try one of these new models ... next year.
Posted by: Alden

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 03:39 PM

The PHA III action has 3 sensors to the II's 2. The third sensor is functionally equivalent to the repetition lever on an acoustic grand action, allowing faster repetition without fully releasing the key or allowing the damper to touch the strings. Its a similar arrangement to Yamaha's GH3 action.

It doesn't appear that the PHA III in the HP307 has the V-Piano's dedicated CPU that allows the piano to "learn" your playing style.
Posted by: sieg66

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Tony Lau
Hi Sieg,

Could you share with us where you learned about this difference between PHA III and PHA II?

Thanks,
Tony
Hi Tony,
it's there, a 2'40" http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/01/23/wnamm09-roland-v-piano-behind-closed-doors/
and it works, I have tried it in a shop. It's maybe not as subtle as in a real piano, but it's far better that with pha II where escapment is of no use. It would be interesting to see how the new kawai ca 93 deals with the same issue.

It's nice to see that the new roland keyboard has a better sensor system, because in a real piano the point where the damper touch the string is not the same (higher) than the point where you can still produce a sound (lower in the travel of the key, near the escapment point). With many other DPs I believe that this two points are the same, so you can't repeat the same note without dampering it first and thus playing staccato, if you don't use some pedal.

So yamaha seems to use 3 sensors too, what about new kawai models ?
Posted by: Tony Lau

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/07/09 07:37 PM

Hi Sieg, Alden,

Thanks for the explanation on the PHA III.

So far I haven't seen literature from Kawai that explains the technology (e.g. number of sensors) used in its new RM3 keyboard. The emphasis is on the physical aspect. RM3 stands for realistic material, mechanism and motion.

I guess we'll need to wait for someone to report on their real experience with the Kawai models.
Posted by: mezzo-poor

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/24/09 06:15 AM

11/21 HP307 was released in Japan. So I rushed into a store and tried it. The store had both HP207 and HP307 so I could compare them. I had thought HP207 was already an excellent DP however HP307 was fairly better than HP207.

Touch)
More natural, smoother and quicker than HP207. HP307 adopts PHA III (same as V-piano). I played some rapid passage (eg. Fantaisie-Impromptu, Jardins sous la pluie) and the keys were responsive.
I also tested the response for repeated notes. I could easily play 11 notes/sec on HP307 (maybe it is not the limit of HP307 but the limit of my fingers) while I could play 10 notes/sec on HP207.

Sound)
HP307 adopts the newly developed hybrid technology (sampling and physical modeling). A Roland's staff in the store said that they had so much confidence about the sound of HP307 that they removed the sham effects (HP207 has 3D effect but HP307 doesn't have it). I compared the grand piano 1,2,3 on HP207 and HP307 with no reverb. Due to the noisy environment, I gave up evaluating the sound from speakers. I used my noise-cancelling headphone.

HP207's sound was already good but HP307's sound was more natural and clearer. It was something like looking at pictures with high resolution. Tone change along velocity became more natural and wider.

I also brought some midi files and played them on HP307. When I listened to the sound rendered by HP307 I felt as I listened to a CD recorded in a good studio.

Something wrong)
I tried to find some weak points but it was difficult, however:
  • I felt the tone change around ppp was a little insufficient compared to acoustic pianos, however this weak point is shared with most of DPs.
  • I felt some unnatural frequency characteristic in low frequency, however It might be my headphone's fault.

The prices in the store were
HP307 269,000JPY
HP207 199,000JPY(The store discounted it after the release of HP307.)

I have already known Roland's advertisement. So I am afraid my review is affected by kind of PLACEBO EFFECTs. I'm looking forward to other one's reviews..
Posted by: Bunneh

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/24/09 07:28 AM

thank you for this thoughtful and apparently unbiased (p)review!
Posted by: Vid_w

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/24/09 01:52 PM

Thanks for the previews!
Now I'm really in a dillema whether to get one of the current HPs or wait for the next generation...
Speaking of which, any idea when they'll be available in Europe?
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/24/09 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: mezzo-poor
The prices in the store were:
HP307 269,000JPY
HP207 199,000JPY

That's $2247 for the 207 and $3047 for the 307.
Nice prices!
Posted by: jameskey

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/25/09 03:58 PM

I just picked up my HP-207 over the weekend, and love it. However I wish that my dealer had said something about the HP-307, because I paid $3200.00 USD, which seems to be the price of the HP-307. Any advice? Thanks
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/25/09 04:04 PM

Either enjoy your piano now or return it immediately for full refund if possible and wait half a year with whatever else you have now to enjoy your other new piano when it starts shipping (at potentially much higher US than Japan prices.)
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/25/09 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: jameskey
I just picked up my HP-207 over the weekend, and love it. However I wish that my dealer had said something about the HP-307, because I paid $3200.00 USD, which seems to be the price of the HP-307. Any advice?
I was converting the OP's quoted prices from Yen to dollars. But that doesn't account for market factors. You can't really compare prices in the US with those in the Far East.
Posted by: Vid_w

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/25/09 04:28 PM

I compared the japanese prices of HP 203 and HP 305 and they're identicall!
Do you really think it would take half a year to start shipping worldwide?
I want it now!
:P
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/26/09 01:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Vid_w
I compared the japanese prices of HP 203 and HP 305 and they're identicall!
Do you really think it would take half a year to start shipping worldwide?
I want it now!
:P


Even Roland may not know the answer to that question.
Depends on too many external factors and their own internal variables. You could of course contact your local Roland sales organization. They often receive internal announcements of which year/quarter product releases are planned for their region. If you hear 2010Q2, count on end of 2010Q3, for example.

You could always fly to Japan and bring one home with you if you absolutely must have one right now.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/26/09 02:09 AM

Roland are usually very good with their release schedule. I fully expect the new HP30x instruments to be demonstrated at NAMM in January, Messe in February, and available to purchase shortly after.

Kind regards,
James
x
Posted by: Tony Lau

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 01:19 AM

I am looking forward to trying the HP307 and Kawai CA63/93 in person before making my first serious DP purchase!
Posted by: zaba19

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 02:20 AM

I almost bought hp207 in june but when I read about new keyboard (pha3) in v-piano I was sure Roland is going to make new hp-pianos with pha3 this year so I decided to wait. I'm pleased that I was right smile Now if they only could start shipping them to europe... Can't wait! laugh
Posted by: mezzo-poor

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 03:23 AM

You can listen to two samples on roland.co.jp. Visit

http://www.roland.co.jp/PIANO/hp/hp307.html

and click the photo of a female pianist. Then you will see two buttons to play samples.

These samples are common to all HP30xs because their tone generators are identical(except for some parameters are adjustable(307) or fixed(302,305)).
Posted by: zaba19

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 08:36 AM

If you click on even more buttons you'll get to presentations with videos as well - showing some of the features.
Posted by: Huygens

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 09:28 AM

Is there a list anywhere exactly stating how many levels of sampling each Roland model have?

The only thing I find online is "multi-sampling" and no specific number like Casio's "4 level sampling".
Posted by: Vid_w

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 11:43 AM

The new Hp300 series doesn't use sampling, they use the same sound modeling as the V-piano.
Posted by: mezzo-poor

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 11:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Huygens
Is there a list anywhere exactly stating how many levels of sampling each Roland model have?

I've never seen any information about it. I asked about it to a Roland's staff and even she didn't know.
Posted by: Andree

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 12:20 PM

It's not the same sound generator in the new HP series as in the V-piano, but a combination of modeling and sampling
Posted by: Vid_w

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/27/09 12:39 PM

^Hmma, i thought it was all sound modelling, just without the piano design features...
Posted by: Masume

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/28/09 11:09 AM

Hello, I am thinking about buying a new piano since my 10 year old Kawai CA 550 doesn't really satisfy me anymore and for financial as well as other reasons (too loud, transportability, tuning etc.) I want the next one to be digital too. Having tried most of the new models from Kawai Yamaha and Roland, I am most impressed with Rolands HP 207, the V-Piano and the LX-10.
Needless to say I am very interested in Rolands new HP 307.
Since I am looking for a home-piano the V-Piano isn't really an option, so I was hoping the 307 would bring the V-Pianos fantastic soundquality to home-pianos. However, the most important weak-point I found in the 207 in direct comparison to the v-piano was the sound in the very quite ppp area which I found to feel artificial, too brilliant, the change in sound too small. Now I have read this wonderful review and one thing concernes me:
Quote:
I felt the tone change around ppp was a little insufficient compared to acoustic pianos, however this weak point is shared with most of DPs.

Could you possibly tell me if that fault is stronger in the old HP207 than in the HP307?
Even though I currently prefer Rolands LX-10 over the HP 207 for its superior speaker system I would like to know if the new technology is worth waiting another 2 years or so for the successor of the LX-10.
Posted by: mezzo-poor

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/28/09 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Masume
Originally Posted By: mezzo-poor
I felt the tone change around ppp was a little insufficient compared to acoustic pianos, however this weak point is shared with most of DPs.

Could you possibly tell me if that fault is stronger in the old HP207 than in the HP307?

About the change of tone around ppp, I think
HP207 < HP307 < acoustic pianos.

Please enjoy choosing your next DP. You can decide it after trying HP307 because you say you can wait for 2 years. laugh
Posted by: Masume

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/28/09 03:41 PM

I can, but I don't really want to. laugh
I guess I will just have to wait until it arrives in Germany (which my piano dealer guessed would be around september). I guess could go to the Musikmesse in Frankfurt since it's only about 100km from here, but 20€ entry + travelling seems a bit expensive for just trying one perticular product.
Thanks anyway for your insights =)
I can only hope that Roland will quickly make new LX-10 like pianos with the new technology or else I will have to decide between great speakers (LX-10) or great sound generation (HP 307).
Posted by: Vid_w

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/28/09 05:06 PM

^September 2010?
If so, I'll just buy the HP 203, I can't wait for another year...
Posted by: crusadar

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/29/09 02:19 AM

Anyone know when the HP-40x range will be released? Seriously, isn't the DP manufacturing arena getting like that one we suffer from with computers, buy one today and it's replaced, and obsolete, in a years time? I'm not knocking it, it's indicative of the "must have" societies we live in, it makes our world go round. Sorry, OT.
Posted by: Masume

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/29/09 12:06 PM

I don't see what's wrong with that. My ten year old Kawai CA550 works just as well as it did more than 10 years ago when I bought it, my ten year old PC in the basement however is good for nothing by now as it can't support any modern software. I think it's great that so many improvements are made in digital pianos. That the new ones are a little better doesn't make the older ones any worse. As for the HP-40x range, my uneducated guess would be about 2 years after the release of the HP-30x range because that is how long it took from HP-20x to HP-30x (I think...)
Posted by: MacMacMac

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/29/09 12:28 PM

I think Masume is right.

Computers become obsolete because you're always wanting to add new software (or you're being forced to). This requires more system resources, eventually forcing you to get a newer, better box.

But there are no upgrades to your piano. It's not subject to the burdens of new software. It never changes. So, until it breaks or wears out, it can keep going and going ...
Posted by: crusadar

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/30/09 02:36 AM

I think what I'm saying is, the technology and the means to incorporate it into the DP are there already it's just a matter of releasing it slowly over a number of years in order to maintain the market, I believe it is called "planned obsolescence". Sorry, still OT I'll stand down.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/30/09 03:42 AM

No, please keep up talking.
You are of course right.
That is why healthy competition from new, young innovative companies is so important!
Otherwise, consumer markets resemble simply monopoly or oligopoly style profit pools to be milked the best way for the market making companies, keeping prices high and consumer-value-increasing innovation late.

If you want to see capabilities hit the market earlier, put your money where your mouth is and vote with your dollars and euros on those companies that are pushing things forward, like Modartt and their PianoTeq product.

Here is the paradox: If you want to see more from the Rolands and Yamahas of the world, give your money to Modartt instead.
Posted by: Vastrode

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 11/30/09 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: mezzo-poor

The prices in the store were
HP307 269,000JPY
HP207 199,000JPY(The store discounted it after the release of HP307.)


To covert the price of the discounted HP207 it will cost around 3.2k whereas HP203 in my country cost around 3.5k. The price range is pretty huge, i wonder if it will be cheaper to import a HP203 from Japan..
Posted by: temari

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/01/09 12:26 PM

I have a question with this respect. I also was just about to buy HP 207 but now i don't relly know what is the best timing. Does anybody know how pricing works in this case. The price in Germany for HP 207 is 2749 EUR. Would it be complitely stupid to buy it now, knowing that new modelis coming from price perspective or this future release is already IN this price. I am not sure I want to wait 307, but wouldn't like to see a big discount next month after I bought it.
Does it make sense to wait until New Year?or messe in Frankfurt in February?
Thank you in advance!
Posted by: Masume

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/01/09 01:53 PM

hmm... that makes sense, so I'll just hijack your question and add: How about the LX-10? I consider buying it instead of the 207 or instead of waiting for the 307, because it sounds so much greater playing with the LX-10s speakers. But since it's a different product series It shouldn't be greatly affected as far as pricedrops are concerned, I guess...
Oh, and by the way: even though I like the alliteration, the Musikmesse in Frankfurt is in late march, not february. (hm, Musikmesse in march, that still works laugh )
Posted by: Huygens

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/01/09 02:37 PM

Originally Posted By: temari
I have a question with this respect. I also was just about to buy HP 207 but now i don't relly know what is the best timing. Does anybody know how pricing works in this case. The price in Germany for HP 207 is 2749 EUR. Would it be complitely stupid to buy it now, knowing that new modelis coming from price perspective or this future release is already IN this price. I am not sure I want to wait 307, but wouldn't like to see a big discount next month after I bought it.


You will. And you want the PHA III keyboard.
Posted by: Masume

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/01/09 04:11 PM

The PHA III, really? From what I've heard the differences between the PHA II and the PHA III are barely noticable. I tried both myself (On the v-piano and another modern roland stagepiano) and I didn't really notice any differnce, both felt equally great and fun to play.
I would say the sound is of much greater concern, but since it doesn't seem to be on par with the v-piano just yet (judging by mezzo-poors review, please correct me if I got the wrong impression) you could just as well wait for the next next generations of Roland pianos as they are surely going to be better yet. Wanting to buy a new digital piano myself I came to the conclusion that you can always wait for the next, better generation but that way you will never buy a new digital piano...
So much for my opinion on that topic, but maybe I'm just telling myself all that to rationalise the purchase of that new piano I want laugh (that and my situation is a little different as I'm looking to buy the LX-10 model instead which makes the HP-307 less appealing)
But even though, I would at least wait till NAMM (January 14th to 17th) to get some more impressions on the new model before I actually decide on waiting or not, an additional one month and two weeks waiting should be short enough to bear. smile
Posted by: temari

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/02/09 05:53 AM

OK, but if we switch to pure pricing issue, what is your impression: will the price for HP 207 go down in the nearest future or it stay at this level and new model will be just more expensive.
I don't have any DP at all, so I need to buy something to start practicing and i would say that 2749 EUR ( current price for HP 207 in Germany) is my upper limit i would lke to pay more, even for 307 or anything else.
Posted by: Bunneh

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/02/09 07:49 AM

Buy at thomann.de after Christmas, they have a 30 day returns policy that I've personally used for a digital piano. 30 days after delivery, NAMM will be over and if it hasn't dropped in price till then, it probably will not for a while.

Plus you have a great amount of experience with the 207 to decide whether the 307 will be worth the premium.
Posted by: theJourney

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/02/09 07:55 AM

if the piano is not defective you will be required to pay the return shipping which will be considerable for the HP207.

I would recommend actually only buying something you are actually planning to keep rather than abusing return policies.
Posted by: Bunneh

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/02/09 07:59 AM

You don't pay return shipping in Germany at Thomann, unless that changed since August 2008, when I bought mine.

Whether it's ethical or not is something you have to decide for yourself, of course!
Posted by: Huygens

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/02/09 02:49 PM

I haven't found any accompaniments on the Roland RD-700GX or V-Piano. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Does any of the new Rolands have a built-in sequencer, for accompaniments, like the Yamaha CVP-series?
Posted by: mezzo-poor

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/02/09 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Huygens
Does any of the new Rolands have a built-in sequencer, for accompaniments, like the Yamaha CVP-series?

I browsed the Japanese manual for HP307 and found no description for accompaniments.
Posted by: Andree

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/07/09 11:03 AM

Does anyone know the name of the two classical pieces played on the demo at www.roland.co.jp? Talking about HP307

/Andrée
Posted by: mezzo-poor

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/07/09 12:02 PM

Please refer to

http://www.classicalarchives.com/work/7178.html
and
http://www.classicalarchives.com/work/7226.html
No.1 Ab
Posted by: Andree

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/07/09 03:00 PM

mezzo-poor, thanks for your help

/Andrée
Posted by: Masume

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/07/09 03:53 PM

For the next time you hear a nice classical piece but not know what it is (and don't have anyone to ask), try www.musipedia.org , it works remarkably well. Only yesterday it helped me find out, that that neat extract I had recently heard was from prokofievs Romeo and Juliet (Montagues And Capulets).
Posted by: mezzo-poor

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/07/09 07:48 PM

Oh, it's convenient! I bookmark it. Thank you.
Posted by: Kawai James

Re: Preview of Roland products 2010? - 12/07/09 09:20 PM

What a terrific site!

Thank you Masume!

Cheers,
James
x