I'm just wondering if this might be a good idea for a new section of Piano World. Not surprisingly the Piano Piano thread stimulated the thought. But it makes sense in general, I think. Almost everyone who buys a piano goes to a store. People are always asking if anyone has experience with X piano store. Everyone has been to piano stores and will go to more in the future. It's a natural topic I think. People can learn who the good guys and bad guys are and this would help reward the good guys while perhaps helping to persuade the bad to mend their ways.

Many bad dealers have gotten away with bad stuff for too long, because piano selling is an area that has not attracted mass attention like for instance car dealers. To most shoppers, the piano business is, in effect, a "black box". Some dealers ruthlessly take advantage of the typical customer's naivety. We can help change that.

Just an idea.

Regards,

Rick Clark

I think that's a GREAT idea! Especially because the amount of dealer chatter has increased here lately.

Would we have a new thread for each store? I visited more than a dozen stores and definitely have strong opinions (good and bad) about them.

penny

Count my vote in favor of Rick's idea.

I'm not so sure about this idea. In many cases it would post just one persons opinion of a store which might not reflect accurately their day-to-day operation.

I see no problem if their were multiple, similar experiences.

Great idea Rick.

Some disclaimer to protect Frank would be good.
Something like, "These are not the views of Pianoworld and content is not moderated or edited."

Then again, how could we prevent a dealer from logging on 100 times under fake names with good reviews? Or bad reviews of their local competitors?

Complete freedom is nice but abuse may be a concern.

Good points....

rethinking...

I personally feel like it would be very obvious if a dealer tries a ploy like that (re-registering under a million different names to post glowing reports). Really, there's nothing to stop them from doing that right now.

Except for all of us! WE would notice such an attempt (as we do now) and report it to Frank for further investigation. Any dealer caught in such a practice should forever be banned from PW.

Plus, readers are able to make their own judgments about the writers who post here. The personnas of many of us who have been around here awhile are well formed. Newbies who rarely contribute anything but a glowing report, I suspect would be met with a more skeptical eye than others whose opinions are all over this site for examination.

penny

Rick,

The Piano Piano thread also got me to think about collecting data about piano dealers - specifically regarding their return and cancellation policies. I posted it on the Piano Piano thread. I am not re-posting it here because it is a bit long, but some of what I said bears on this thread and so may be worth a look.

Peter

This would be a great idea. Having never purchased a new piano before that fateful day in NY, my family visited about 6 different piano stores in the NJ/PA area. The experience was intense, even with the aid of Larry Fine's book! Little did we know how much dealers vary.

I do think, however, that a review should be based on a completed transaction, including delivery and service, to be worthwhile. The shopping experience is one thing, but it's what happens after the sale that can change everything.

Well, certainly one would have the greatest insight into the dealership from which one bought a piano! But I saw enough sleazy sales tactics and misrepresentations and way-too high pricing on my piano journey, and I think consumers would be interested in that, too. All one would have to add to a post is, "I did not purchase a piano here, so I cannot speak to the service rendered after the point of purchase."

penny

Good idea. Some have mentioned some "minor" negatives, so overall a very good idea.

As the piano forums grow, this could become an invaluable resource for potential buyers.

Regards,
Ron

I like the idea, but I think that such reviews should not be permitted anonymously (or without posting an e-mail address), lest someone try to use the feature for an improper purpose.

Jim

Actually, I think it (the forums) already is (a valuable resource for buyers). But I agree that a specific section devoted to it would be better than having to dig through numerous old threads.

Ed wrote:

Actually, I think it (the forums) already is (a valuable resource for buyers). But I agree that a specific section devoted to it would be better than having to dig through numerous old threads.[/b]

Ed, I apologize if my comments sounded like a put down to the current forums. Indeed I do see the current forums as being already an invaluable resource to potential buyers. Apologies to any other long time members who may read my comments in this way.

Regards,
Ron

Ron, no apoligies needed as far as I'm concerned. I guess it was just awkwardly worded.

Cast my vote as being against the idea. There's too much room for abuse of good dealers, or praise of bad dealers, false posts and spamming.

I like it the way it is now, when a real shopper shares experiences. It's somehow more legitimate and real IMHO.

quote:

I guess it was just awkardly worded[/b]

Long day. I guess the head was still in a piano.
Spinets and tired old upright. Tomorrow will be a grands day.

Regards,
Ron

Everyone is an individual and what may be one person's good service maybe another's "ripoff". I find on the internet general reviews like this of little value.

Sometimes a new employee can really screw things up for a dealer. One sales person's bad day does not a sleezy dealer make...

I think it's OK. The online booksellers have customer reviews for books and it seems to work. I think.

Hi,

I think I agree with Penny that people would have to take the reviews with a grain of salt, but the idea has merit.

There might be a way to accomplish it without a separate board, though. I belong to another on-line community that has adopted "prefixing." In other words, if a new thread were about a disreputable dealer, the person would put "REVIEW:" in the subject header. Then anyone who wants to check out a dealer(s) can do so easily.

It's just a thought.

Cindy

I think a place to rate is a natural idea. But I'd like to see it confined to perhaps a categorical rating that reflects number of respondents. Like a 0-5 star system of rating for various categories of evaluation. With only the number of respondents listed to reflect the base on which the rating is derived, so that readers may take that weighting into account. That would seem fair. Gives dealers the opportunity to improve ratings and customers the opportunity to reflect departures from quality. Perhaps a simple limit of a very brief quote to add to a "comment" category. Like ten words or less from any responder. Question though--how would you keep a dealer from shilling their rating up?

I like this idea in theory, but I think only in theory. Just my opinion (really more of a feeling), but I generally find consumer reviews on the internet, whether it's books, CDs, automobiles, or appliances nearly worthless and probably misleading because (a) I don't really know anything about the source of the opinions, (b) I think problems often get out-of-proportion play (squeaking wheels are most likely to post), and (c) I perceive an awful lot of what does seem to be review stuffing by interested parties--often not that easy to catch unless you hang around and study a site for awhile--some folks are quite good at sounding "real".

Maybe I'm just a cynical skeptic (or visa versa), but I take most everything on the WEB with a mountain-sized grain of salt. It seems to me that personal narratives describing various encounters are more informational and ultimately valuable in this environment than the idea of structured reviews, where the poster is encouraged to judge and rate and be glib like a critic. Perhaps someone will change my mind on this...

As to the format, I was thinking to keep it simple, unscientific, and anecdotal for a few reasons.

1. Anything requiring rules enforcement or information verification would create a headache for Webmeister Frank. Frank has enough to do already. Also if he has anything but a hands-off neutrality policy as to content, it could create a legal situation for him as regards the veracity of the contents, should some disgruntled dealer think about taking legal action.

2. Reasonably intelligent people can tell when a poster is an idiot, a phony, a shill, etc. Such bad posters usually get put in their place. It will self-regulate in that sense. Yes people will attempt to spam it, but others will call them out. Others may have an agenda or post garbage, but that will be noticed and criticized as well. Bad information is generally reconized as such. And when people are blatantly hiding behind phony identities you have to take them with a grain of salt.

It's pretty much how things go on the unmoderated USENET. People with normal intelligence will be able to extract the useful info from among the noise.

3. We could easily create an informal structure that would be no burden on Frank, simply by referring new posters to an FAQ and ask they follow the guidelines/format. For instance we could suggest they state their identity, what store they went to on what date, and what their experience was. If someone refuses to follow these guidelines-- we can just take their comments with a grain of salt or tell them off. (These are just baby ideas at this point. I'm sure something cool, clever, and efficient can be imagined by someone smarter than me.)

Regards,

Rick Clark

Please excuse the temporary hijack.

Bernard, I've always wondered about those book reviews. They always seem so well written that I sometimes wonder if the review is a fabrication of someone affiliated with the book business. Your thoughts?

I agree with chickgrand - ratings based on established criteria will provide a more objective evaluation. The forum would then not be limited to simply identifying "good" dealers and "bad" dealers, (pretty broad categories), but would more effectively communicate where a dealer's strengths lie. This information would indeed be useful.

Too many things I don't like about it. First of all, I don't know if you guys appreciate how powerful these types of reviews are. Generally, most clients that come in with the Piano Book, never even look into the description of the survey or the particular piano review, they just open it straight to the page with the star ratings. This is typical of the majority of consumers. As a result, they may never see any rebuttals etc.. to a bad review. And as noted before, the bad reviews can be most prevalent, as people tend to anounce bad service more than good service. Allow me to give an example: Last month, I had a client considering a purchase of a Boston grand piano with a Piano Disc installation. The total price was $23,467 including tax. I gave her a printed quote sheet for her to take along. She came back two days later with $2400.00 to purchase the piano. I asked if she wanted the rest to be financed or COD. She got upset and said she was paying the piano in full. I tried to explain to her that she must have misunderstood, she got irate, and started to accuse me of bait and switch tactics. I pointed out the written quote she had with her, but she completely ignored me and stormed out of the store. She later called several consumer groups and the BBB. I explained the situation, mailed them copies of the quote, and a picture of the price tag on the piano. The lady from the BBB laughed and said this wasn't the first call from this consumer about something like this. From time to time, all dealers see someone like this, maybe once out of every 200 customers. Now, the larger the store, the larger the city, the more people come through the door in a month. A small dealer may only see somebody like this three or four times a year, whereas I might see someone like this every month because of the number of people that comes through my door. Therefore, the larger dealers, even those with excellent service and reputations, are more likely to get bad reviews than smaller dealers (who might not even have as good of service). Sure, hopefully they'll see more positive reviews as well, but it doesn't balance out. One person with a perceived problem can cause more damage to a reputation of a company than two hundred happy customers can fix. Plus, the few with difficulties are more likely to tell their stories than those with good experiences. Starting a consumer review could damage some very fine dealers unintentionally.

Instead, I think the effort would be better spent in creating a thread or FAQ about things to look for in a dealer, and what seperates good dealers from bad ones. What policies the consumer needs to know about, what questions they need to ask. This can still be effective in helping readers and lurkers from being taken for a ride, but not potentially damage good dealers.

I agree with Luke Dad. Especially for categorical reviews with limited comments. I used to read the user reviews for movies on Yahoo to see what movies might be appropriate for my daughter (and worth going to). Now they've substituted a rating scheme that apparently doesn't require much effort and it seems that every movie is shilled. When a movie that the critics rate C has 10,000 reviews and an A rating on the day of its release I go PLEAAASSSEEE! I'm left with just the critic's reviews and have lost the individual experiences. I'm afraid that the same would happen here. I'm afraid that the kind of oversight and feedback from regular posters that you've been talking about would not fit well into this scheme.

I like the idea of a FAQ on what to look for and avoid in a dealer. This calls attention to the techniques used in stores (both good and bad) without limiting the discussion to a list of particular dealers. Any list of problem dealers would leave the impression that a store not on the list is above board and honest - when the truth may be that nobody who's shopped at the store has come to this forum. What to include could be a discussion thread and things with a strong consesus from the industry types and long time members could go in.

Sometimes, someone's bad experience with any kind of dealership, be it piano, stereo, car or whatever, could well be a result of them expecting unreasonable deals, or setting uneducated expectations too high.

Not all customers are as well educated as others in piano details. Someone who has come here and asked, read Larry's book, & otherwise done their homewwork could well write a very fair review of what they experienced. We (being PW members)would be able to recognise that, but would everyone using a dealer rating page on this site be able to distinguish an experienced or well founded opinion against someone who has not done the research, and just wants to shoot their mouth off.

If I were a dealer (and I'm not), I would have problems with this.


Jamie

Another issue would be for multi store chains. It's possible that you may run across a store with a new and inexperienced staff, that may make some mistakes. Normally these mistakes are caugh and corrected, and the salespeople educated or let go if they refuse to learn. Unfortunately, a poor experience and review at this store would damage all the others that may give excellent service and information.

I commend everybody for wanting to help consumers that visit this board, and wanting to aid those good and honest dealers; but this could harm the reputation of reputable dealers and also prevent customers from finding the right piano for their needs.

As a for instance, let's use PianoPiano. We have a thread where there are 2-3 consumers that have had problems with them. These problems seem to be legitimate, and I am not defending PP on these issues. However, while everybody has jumped on the bandwagon and are condemning PP, does this one issue alone condemn them? I have heard some very poor things about them as a dealer, but I've also heard some positives as well. While there are consumers that have had difficulty with them, there are many others that have been very happy with their experience. Did anybody bother to read their referral section on their website? No, if they did, they would see that there are many customers that have had positive relationships with them. But we completely ignored that, we jumped on the negatives. Unfortunately, this is a part of human nature. What do you think potential consumers would do with the store review? They would have a tendency to jump on the negatives. As a result, if there was a consumer review, and a shopper read it from NYC, they would not go to PianoPiano. Now what if the right piano for them was a Petrof or a Knabe, but they never visited PianoPiano because of the review. Chances are, they would never see the Petrof or Knabe, and would go with another piano, even if they would have preferred one of these, but instead they settle. Is this fair to the consumer? Shouldn't they be able to decide on the experience themselves? Yes, if they are armed with the knowledge of what to look for in the dealer, what questions regarding the store policies they should ask, and what recourse they may have in the event of an unsatisfying experience. If BVH and the others had known to ask what the policy was regarding returns and deposits, they wouldn't have the difficulty they have now. Also, they may very well be enjoying a beautiful Petrof grand at this very time. Instead, through no fault of their own, they currently have no piano, and are involved in litigious circumstances for $20,000. And that's a shame, we should do what we can to help them recoup their losses, and try to prevent this from happening again, but we should do it through teaching those who come here how to shop, not where to shop. What's next? coming up with our own rating systems for pianos?

I tend to agree with the comments posted by Luke's dad. But no, I see nothing wrong with educated piano shoppers coming up with ratings for different pianos. Rating the dealerships though ..... I don't think so.

I've been playing the pianos in the Calgary stores for over 3 years now. Although I bought a new grand recently, I still love trying out new & used pianos (especially grands). I've been playing "Secret Shopper" all along, yet now I simply ask permission to play the pianos when they're not busy. I'm friendly, courteous, etc..

What I would like to see reviewed (from a buyer/shopper perspective) are new pianos themselves, perhaps with our own * ** *** **** ***** rating system, based on qualities such as touch, tone, etc.; other attributes e.g. finishing; available written brochures/info for the piano, etc.. I would too enjoy reading some "subjective" (read: "useful") anecdotes from piano forum reviewers, e.g.: "Dealer X said this Sauter was the best prepped Sauter in the store", or "Dealer Y said this one had just come in & they hadn't prepped it yet", or "The dealer had his pianist daughter play the same Schubert piece on all 3 pianos so I got to really compare them as a listener too". What bothered me as I read & re-read 2 editions of Larry Fine's Piano Book was that only technicians reviewed & rated pianos. I really would have appreciated reviews (or at least some comments) from educated consumers (not necessarily professional players) re their opinions of new pianos. This is where I think piano forum members can provide a valuable service to piano shoppers who frequent this forum on the internet.

Perhaps someone with the time & some experience with this sort of thing could design a questionaire detailing items reviewers should check out & questions to answer whenthey review pianos in stores, design a scale to rate tone, touch, projection, whatever. Last but not least, I believe if members were to rate, or comment on pianos & post their views, they should post what they own themselves, their experience as players & shoppers & also what motivates them to post their views as "Secret Shoppers".

Thanks for listening to my views.