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#236990 - 10/30/06 05:21 PM Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
Sorry, I haven't been participating in forum much since I got my Schimmel a couple of years ago. But, I thought some of you might be interested in this: I've been looking for a way to record my piano music at home (and also live gigs with a four-piece band). Today's digital (tape and CD) recorders are often over a thousand dollars, but the H4 is now about $300.

It's about the size of large TV remote control, and records to a memory card like a digital camera. I used the built-in mics to record a handful of tunes, then recorded a piece using a pair of AKG C3000's for comparison. Results are at http://ragtime88.com/tunes if you'd like to listen. All except "My Happiness" are with the built-in mics, and "My Happiness" was done with the AKG's. These are mp3's, but the originals are wav files.

It is DIRT SIMPLE to use the built in mics (and, really, not much harder to attach to my band's mixing board). I put the recorder on a small tripod and set it on top of the piano. One button starts/stops recording. Every take is written to a new file, copy to PC and *voila*.

This is a hoot to use. Now I have to learn to play well enough to not be embarassed by the results!

--G

ps. I love the Schimmel.
_________________________
--Gerry

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#236991 - 10/30/06 08:22 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17964
Loc: Victoria, BC
Gerry :

Hey! I enjoyed your rendition of "My Happiness" - one of my favourites of the type. My rendition tends to be on the sloppy sentimental side, compared to yours, but I like what you do with it.

By the way, isn't it "Charmaine" and not "Chairmaine" - but then maybe she's got a new job as head of a committee somewhere since I last heard! \:D

I must look up the Zoom H4.

Thanks.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#236992 - 10/30/06 08:44 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Rich Galassini Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9200
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rag,

Nice to see you around again.

The result wasn't half bad at all. I am on my way to learn more.

Thanks for the "Heads up".
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

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#236993 - 10/30/06 09:14 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17776
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Thanks, Ragtime88! I have been (slowly) researching recording systems and was looking into the Kawai PR-1, which is plug and play like the Zoom only more expensive.

Although I was not expecting to be, I was much impressed by the sound quality you got with the built-in microphones. Did you do any manipulating of the recordings you posted, e.g., noise removal or equalization?

Also, if you don't mind a few more technical questions, what is involved in getting the recording from the Zoom unit to your PC? Do you have to buy an adaptor or cable? Is it easy to move around and delete files on it? How do you convert the wav files to mp3s?

Very, very intriguing. $300 seems very cheap to get something that sounds that good. \:\)
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#236994 - 10/31/06 12:49 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
Ok: mmm...where to start? Here's where I bought the H4 -- music123.com No endorsement, but I buy all my band stuff at M123.

I made two different quality recordings: (1) using the microphones built into the H4, and (2)using the H4's ability to connect to any external source [in this case, my AKG 3K3000 microphones].

I didn't tamper with anything I recorded.

What you're hearing is (1)microphone [AKG on MyHappiness] else the H4's internals to (2) wav file on the H4 to (3)wav file on PC to (4) mp3 file on PC to (5) mp3 file on website to (6) mp3 file on whatever you are listening to.

I did not have to buy anything except H4. It has all the cables and a CD with software to hook up to your PC. The software converts "wav" to "mp3".

Here's the company site: H4 .

The H4 comes with all the cables that it takes to connect to your computer, and has a CD for a "Cubase" software program that will convert your recordings into any format you want (web-stuff, or CD).

Disclaimer: I'm a piano player (but a "geek" in my other life).

I'm missing what you want to know, but will watch this thread and respond. :0

--G
_________________________
--Gerry

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#236995 - 10/31/06 01:07 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
...and I corrected my misspelling!! Thanks, Bruce, you're a legend on this global music webspace. \:\) --G
_________________________
--Gerry

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#236996 - 10/31/06 01:56 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
I'm hearing (offline...) from some who would like to know technical detail about using recording equipment to make CD's and I-pod music. Just keep posting to this thread, and I will help as best I can. But . . .

. . .(again!) I'm just a piano player cum geek. I think I can help. (Is this a new thread?)

For sure, digital recording can turn *your* piano music into a Christmas present. This little H4 is perhaps a simple entre. --G
_________________________
--Gerry

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#236997 - 10/31/06 08:31 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17776
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Ragtime88, I'm not usually an impulse buyer, but your thread and those recordings so intrigued me that last night I whipped out my credit card and ordered the Zoom. I think what pushed me over the edge is that I have been trying to record with audacity and my condensor mic, and it is a major pain in the butt to get everything arranged exactly perfectly so that there is no hissing or clipping. I also only have one mic, so the ability to record in stereo using the built-in mics was appealing to me.

I really liked what I had learned about the Kawai PR-1, but the $1900 price tag was intimidating, and a disadvantage of that system is that you record directly on CD. So I was kind of waiting until they came out with an upgrade that had a hard drive or flash drive system where you could save various takes and only burn to CD when you're ready. You can't beat the price on the Zoom, though, and I think it will serve me well for a year or two until that upgrade comes out.

Anyway, I can't wait to get my Zoom. \:\) (I even shelled out the extra $ for 2-day shipping.) Thank you *very much* for starting this thread and your patience in dealing with all my questions. My husband, on the other hand, is not too happy with you. \:D
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#236998 - 10/31/06 08:37 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1242
 Quote:
I'm not usually an impulse buyer, but your thread and those recordings so intrigued me that last night I whipped out my credit card and ordered the Zoom.
LOL - me too! Actually, I did a little more research first, but not much!

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#236999 - 10/31/06 08:43 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17776
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
That's funny, Sir Lurksalot! And at least now I don't feel quite so foolish.

I was intrigued by the reviews I read of the product on various sites. The negative ones appeared to be from audiophile geeks who had very high expectations. The raves were from people like me who want an easy and inexpensive way to make decent recordings. And there were a couple I read that specifically mentioned getting great quality with piano recordings.

What the heck...it's just $300. Even if it turns out to be a bust, I've made worse financial decisions in my life. ;\)
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#237000 - 10/31/06 09:02 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3859
I've been looking at that too. Can I plug a digital piano directly into it?
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#237001 - 10/31/06 09:26 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Greg Wilder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 36
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Amazing[/b]. A truly simple, low-cost product for folks who are looking for a one-stop, plug-n-play solution. And it comes loaded with internal FX, 2 mics, 2 mic pre-amps, the ability to record wav or mp3 directly to erasable SD media, a USB interface, in addition to bundled editing software.

Geesh. I hope Kawai is listening...

As long as users can deal with the inherent sound quality limitations - this one looks like a real winner. Now there's no excuse for anyone on Piano World not to post their recordings!
_________________________
www.gregwilder.com

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#237002 - 10/31/06 09:37 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
ejsauter Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 564
Loc: Michigan
What a great tip! Thanks Ragtime88. Too bad my birthday was a couple of days ago \:\(
_________________________
"The creative mind plays with the object it loves." -- Carl Jung

http://www.sauter-pianos.com

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#237003 - 10/31/06 10:46 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
I'm happy to help. Here's my "complicated" recording setup:

It comes with a tripod adapter. If I had a grand piano, I'd put the tripod on the floor underneath and point the microphones straight up. It's probably better not to have direct physical contact between the tripod and the piano, but it seems to have worked ok.

You don't actually *need* the software that comes with the h4. Just plug the h4 into a USB port and it will look (to your computer) like an external disk drive. If you record as .WAV or .MP3 (your choice), you can just copy the files.

And, yes, you can plug a digital piano right into the h4 and record. You'll need mini headphones (like an ipod) to hear what you're playing. Or, maybe you can just do it by touch!!

Cheers. --G
_________________________
--Gerry

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#237004 - 10/31/06 09:08 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Terrytunes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 1249
Loc: Tewksbury MA
[This topic is being interrupted for a very special announcement]



EJSauter... Happy Belated Birthday wishes![/b]

[we now return you to the original topic of this very informative thread] \:D

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#237005 - 11/01/06 05:10 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Gerry,

Thanks for posting the info about the H4. I enquired locally about these devices, but the Swiss distributor for Samson does not currently import the Zoom range, and didn't seem to know who did either. I found it advertised on a German online dealer, at a whopping US$425 (not including shipping!) but not available until end November. A couple of UK distributors are quoting ~$400 and no stock until after Christmas :rolleyes: . So I telephoned Music123 in the good ole US of A (ostensibly to ask if the PSU was dual voltage[1]) and ordered one at ~$340 including shipping to Chocolateland.... Hurrah! \:\)

-Michael B.
[1] As you know, we have a stronger flavour of elastic trickery on this side of the pond[2]. The PSU isn't switchable, as it happens, but (having perused a downloaded manual) any decent quality unit capable of providing 9v/300mA should do the trick, and there is always the battery option of course.
[2] 220-240 great big manly Yurrupean volts... instead of your weak and feeble trans-Atlantic 110 ;\) .
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#237006 - 11/01/06 06:47 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
Despite their disclaimers to the contrary, I can't see anything magic about the 9v/300ma wall cube that you get with the H4. I only got a couple hours out of my first set of AA batteries (but they weren't anything special).

For those of you waiting delivery, you can download the operating manual from the company's website (link above).

And, for converting WAV to MP3 files, I'd skip the Cubase program. Go to http://www.riverpast.com and download their free "Wave@MP3" software. Much easier to use! I've been playing with Cubase: it's a decent sound editor and mixer, but a challenge to learn. I can help anybody here step through how to cut dead space out of the beginning and end (and middle for that matter!) of your recordings; just post.

Cheers. --G
_________________________
--Gerry

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#237007 - 11/01/06 10:54 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17776
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ragtime88:
I can help anybody here step through how to cut dead space out of the beginning and end (and middle for that matter!) of your recordings; just post.
[/b]
If you could give us some step by step instructions, that would be great. I was wondering about exactly that earlier... when you said that the best place to put the unit with a grand is underneath it, I was envisioning turning it on, crawling under my piano, positioning it, crawling out, and getting ready on the bench. That's a lot of dead space.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#237008 - 11/02/06 01:50 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
I was envisioning turning it on, crawling under my piano, positioning it, crawling out, and getting ready on the bench. That's a lot of dead space. [/b]
Not if you sound good when you crawl.

I'll work up an instruction list when I get home tonight. \:D
_________________________
--Gerry

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#237009 - 11/02/06 02:06 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
There is a shareware programme (available in various places on That Internet[1]) called "CD Wave Editor," with which (assuming you have recorded to .wav rather than mp3) it is very easy to top and tail (or indeed split) wav files. You can than save them as mp3, flac, ogg, ape, etc. It also deals with cue files. For anything more involved I find that Cool Edit Pro 2 usually does the job.

-Michael B.
[1] E.g. http://www.mymusictools.com/splitter_joiner_24/cd_wave_editor_2656.htm
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#237010 - 11/02/06 02:45 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
hv Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Cape Cod
Looks like a nice unit. Similar looking to one made by Sony but quite a bit cheaper. And 4 channels, too! So can you record your piano in stereo along with a vocal on a 3rd track from another mic?

I assume you can pop that SD memory chip into a computer reader and pull off the sound files just like you'd pull pictures off a camera chip. Can you also plug a usb cable in and do it that way?

Howard

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#237011 - 11/02/06 03:17 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Howard,

I had a quick scan through the manual from the manufacturer's website. "The USB connection can also be used to access an SD card inserted in the H4 from the computer. This is convenient to transfer material recorded with the H4 to the computer, for further editing or mixing." I also noticed that one has to format any SD card before using it in the H4, and there is a warning in the manual that "if a file name is changed using a generic SD card reader/writer, it may no longer be recognized correctly by the H4." So it appears there is some kind of proprietary aspect to its management of the SD card. On the Samsontech website they seem to recommend Delkin Devices cards[1], though their price for the 2GB seems very steep when compared to other vendors (it would be under half the price for an identical article[2] from B&H Photo, for example.)

Best regards,

-Michael B.

[1] http://www.samsontech.com/products/partaccview.cfm?partoraccsID=1912
[2] http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&is=REG&O=productlist&sku=443917
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#237012 - 11/02/06 05:26 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
 Quote:
Originally posted by hv:
So can you record your piano in stereo along with a vocal on a 3rd track from another mic?
[/b]
You can only record 2 tracks at a time; you can then replay those 2 and record 3 and 4. So, you could do the piano first, then sing along while listening to the piano recording.
_________________________
--Gerry

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#237013 - 11/02/06 05:37 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
hv Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Cape Cod
Thanks, Gerry and Michael. Been looking for a high-res multi-track chip recorder to lighten my recorder load. I only know of one other, from Sound Devices, and its way too expensive. I kind of need 3-channel simultaneous recording. This looks like an economical and portable way to record stereo though.

Howard

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#237014 - 11/02/06 08:49 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
 Quote:
Originally posted by hv:
I kind of need 3-channel simultaneous recording. [/b]
I expect, this weekend, to give the h4 a shot at about 10 channels simultaneous. I'll do it by grabbing a stereo output from my mixer board. You could do the same, but you (and I this weekend) won't have the convenience of the built-in microphones.

I'm delighted, though, for live band recording to have a solid-state machine that with the 2G chip I hope to get 4 hours of WAV quality music.
_________________________
--Gerry

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#237015 - 11/02/06 08:55 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Ragtime88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
Here's instructions for using CubaseLE (comes with the h4) to edit WAV files. Instructions assume you've already loaded the program on your PC, and you've used the USB cable to copy the WAV file from the h4 to your PC.

CubaseLE Editing Notes

I've also put this link at the bottom of the "tunes" page on my website. Cheers! (And don't hesitate to write, if you need more help. I love this stuff. \:\) )
_________________________
--Gerry

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#237016 - 11/02/06 09:32 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1242
My Zoom came today. Here is my experience. I'm am not very geeky AT ALL when it comes to audio stuff.

- Set up the unit and followed the instructions to make a quick 30-second sample recording on the SD drive. Easy enough.
- Now you want to HEAR the recording, right? Plugged headphones into the unit and figured out how to play. WOW - sounds great! Now you want to get the file on your computer, right?
- Connected the unit to the computer via USB cable. Computer doesn't recognize hardware. Read, read, read - Oh, here is how you tell the unit to talk to the computer.
- Computer recognizes hardware but says No Driver Loaded.
- Loaded Cubase software, hoping there's a driver in there. Yep!
- Copied WAV file from SD drive inside unit to hard drive on computer. Easy. Now I've got my recording on my computer!
- Hey that WAV file is pretty big. Let's convert to MP3. Ragtime88 says that Cubase will do it.
- Cubase looks too complicated. Now Ragtime88 says to use the free conversion software at riverpast.com.
- Downloaded free software, called wave@mp3. Very simple conversion process. Except it doesn't work. I hit CONVERT and nothing happens.
- For no particular reason, I opened the Musicmatch software already on my computer. There's a converter right there!
- Converted to MP3. It's less than 10% the size of the WAV file.

Thanks everybody, especially Ragtime88

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#237017 - 11/02/06 09:39 PM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17776
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Lurksalot:
Connected the unit to the computer via USB cable. Computer doesn't recognize hardware. Read, read, read - Oh, here is how you tell the unit to talk to the computer.
[/b]
Sir Lurksalot, as I am less technologically sophisticated and definitely more lazy than you, can you possibly direct me to a page number in the manual (if that is in fact where you found the instructions) that shows how to get it to talk to the computer?

Also, is that Musicmatch software a standard part of Windows and thus something I might already have or is it something you bought and/or downloaded elsewhere?

My Zoom came today but I am already procrastinating about grading my midterm exams so won't be able to try it out until tomorrow. \:\(
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#237018 - 11/03/06 04:09 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
A great (free) programme for converting music files of any flavour is to be found at http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm

Sir Lurksalot, if your mp3 is less than 10% of the wav size, I'd guess you have encoded it at a 128kbs data rate (wav is 1411kbs). Though the file size is conveniently small, the audio quality will be quite compromised. I'd heartily recommend using at least 192kbs (if not 256kbs) for mp3 encoding. You will hear the difference, especially with something like a piano (harmonically rich content both high and low registers). Also don't delete the original wav file, as by encoding to mp3 a lot of the original data has been permanently lost in the process. If you really have a shortage of disk space, archive it with a lossless compression programme such as FLAC, which is a bit like zip for audio, in that none of the original data is lost, but the file size is 35-40% of the wav file. And it's free.

Disclaimer: I am in no way connected with any of the above products; they are just what I have found to work well for my personal music needs \:\)

-Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#237019 - 11/03/06 07:38 AM Re: Just got a Zoom H4
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1242
Thanks Michael for the tips. Storage space shouldn't be an issue. My main reason for converting to such a small file would be for email.

Monica - Musicmatch is something that just seems to "appear" on my computers, both at home and work. At work, it's been a free part of various programs that use sound files. It seems to be the rough equivalent of Realplayer, Windows Media, etc. At home, I don't know if it came with the computer, or with one of the kids' programs. Regarding the page number in the Zoom manual that explains how to get the unit to talk to the computer, I'll look it up when I get home later.

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