In most of my posts regarding my M&H 1925 RBB, I mentioned a "new" solenoid playback system that I was having installed. I could not talk about it, but now that manufacturing is under way, I can!

First of all, the Brodmann Piano Group is going to have the same system pre-installed in their grand piano. It's called the "Concerto" Grand Piano. Here is a copy of the brochure. It explains what the system will do etc. If you would like a very clear .pdf copy of the brochure, here is the link for that:


http://www.box.net/shared/ykyqnppgn9







Wayne Stahnke has been working on this for several years now.....a newly designed retro-fit solenoid playback system that can be installed in any grand piano. The retro-fit kit is called the "LX" and that is what I am having installed on the RBB. It is the same system that is going in the Brodmann piano. From what I have been told, this playback system outperforms everything out there, including the Disklavier Pro. There is nothing like it on the market now that will have this kind of playback quality, both in the pedaling/damper control, which is so important, and in the solenoids for the keys.

Wayne Stahnke is probably the most highly regarded engineer in the world in relation to the modern player piano, and has been a consultant in many other companies playback systems over the last 15 years.

His recording, "A Window in Time" on the Telarc label was a milestone in player piano history. It was his invention in the Bosendorfer SE that was utilized in that recording. This new "LX" kit was designed after the SE system. One of the goals was to have at least the same playback quality as the SE system, and also make it more affordable.

As soon as I receive my piano and it's settled down, I will make some Zoom H4 recordings of the LX system and the Ampico and post them here.....should be a very interesting post!

My prediction is that this new "LX" system and the Brodmann "Concerto" system/piano will leave all the others in the dust, and playing catch up!

Grand Piano Man,

We at the Joseph Brodmann Piano Group are extremely excited about this product and I am sure you will be extremely satisfied with your new system. I look forward to hearing your recordings.

Hi Gary,

I can certainly understand why! My re-builder was so enthusiastic about the system when he heard it last year. He said he has never heard a better playback system, and he has been in the player piano business for close to 40 years! At the time, he was played a selection from Aldo Cicolini, the celebrated Italian pianist, and he was very impressed. He said it sounded like the man was playing live, it was that good! He also told me the build quality is exceptional.

Will definitely post some Zoom H4 files when it's finished, probably sometime at the end of May, beginning of June. At some point, I hope I can hear your Brodmann Concerto grand piano as well.

If I buy one of these systems, what discs are available for playing on them? Does the Brodmann Company have a large library of music that will be available for their playback systems? There are generaal midi files available but they are really crummy for the most part. Maybe they be relying upon other company’s copy written materials to use with their playback systems? If they program their units to read proprietary software, isn’t that a violation of copyright laws? If a dealer then knowingly sells these units, would they then be liable also for copy right violation like it works in the computer industry?

These are important concerns which need to be addressed before I'll get too excited. I don't want to get stuck with a unit which has no legal music available for its use.

Hi Justforkix,

If you read the materials on the player system, the reason why the library is vast is because it will play anything written for player pianos on CD as long as it is not encrypted. There is a vast amount of music out there that is not encrypted. Also, there is a substantial library available for the system by which only a piano capable of 256 levels of pedaling can reproduce.
As of now, this is the only system that is capable of reproducing those specs.

One more note as I think about it. The coolest part of this system is that absolutely any CD player with a right and left output will run this system. There is no need for a box to be on the front of the piano at all so it looks like a piano. You can wire it into your existing sound system with no interuptions.

According to Live Performance, the Concerto system plays non-encrypted CDs from Yamaha, QRS, and PianoDisc as well as high-resolution recordings made on the Boesendorfer SE (25+ titles - a list of low-resolution Disklavier versions is here ). I'm told the Concerto system will be able to play high-resolution Disklavier Pro XP recordings too, such as those from Yamaha's Piano e-competition site.

Third parties such as WebOnlyPiano are producing discs playable on the Concerto system as well.

Regarding cross-compatibility, the player system companies already play each other's discs and have done so for years. I can see where some circling of the wagons might occur against a newcomer like PianoForce which has not released any recordings of its own, but Live Performance has been around for many years as a producer of quality recordings, expanding the available music libraries of all player systems on the market.

Thanks Mark and Gary for the clarifications...further thoughts...I don't understand why PianoDisc is going to encrypt their software...it seems like they are cutting themselves out of a lucrative software business. Not everyone has a PianoDisc player....... If ALL the manufactures of the these player systems were compatible with their music libraries,, this is of great benefit to ALL of them, and to us as consumers......it's somewhat analogous to a company like Sony saying, "IF you buy our Sony CD, it will not play on any other CD player, only on a Sony"....this is not productive, and reminds me of the great VHS vs BETA debacle. I understand that artists need to be paid for their work. I don't understand why PianoDisc is taking this path. Any views on this subject?

On a positive note, (pun intended) ...the performances already recorded for the SE system are incredible, and I am sure Mr. Stahnke is going to make arrangements to record new music, popular etc, going forward, after this initial run of the LX kits and Brodmann Concerto systems are out.

Another positive, Mr. Stahnke has made the LX and Brodmann playback system compatible with the WHOLE PIANOCORDER Library!...this is a huge library of music from many Ampico, Duo-Art, and Welte rolls, and a large contemporary library of artists such as, Teddy Wilson, Oscar Peterson, Steve Lawrence, Chick Corea, George Shearing, Roger Williams, Liberace and many more. This means that the Pianocorder signal will be optimally played back through the LX system. Of course, one would have to own the Pianocorder music in order to take advantage of this.

An interesting article from the NYTIMES on Wayne Stahnke, Disklavier, http://www.zenph.com/ and player pianos.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/06/features/vlad.php

Interesting article, in spite of some careless jumbling of the facts...

Of course one question remains: how much?

Does the price compare to pianodisc etc? Or is it more competitive?

The figure I was quoted for this player system is about $7500 installed. It sounds like the intention is to offer a system that performs significantly better than PianoDisc and QRS systems at a comparable price.

Hurstwood out in England has a Bosendorfer 290SE which has a factory installed Stanke system. It also has what may be one of the few Steinway D's in the world with Stahnke automation. And now an M&H Stahnke. I can't wait to hear it!

This looks to be a much newer and miniaturized design... that "hidden mechanism" feature sounds like it would be quite different from the bulky and messy mechanisms I've seen pictures of.

I was wondering what media-format the system uses for its native recording. Hopefully compact-flash is an option. Also if there's any native high res note-velocity support via midi... using cc messages, perhaps.

Howard

Unlike the full SE system, this Concerto / LX system is playback-only, making it much less expensive. The system plays piano+audio streams from CDs, DVDs, MP3 players, etc. It also supports a proprietary high-res format that is not based on MIDI. But high-res MIDI (like Yamaha's XP format) will be supported through transcoding to that native format.

There is no onboard music storage or control unit to break down or become obsolete. Like Gary mentioned above, you can use pretty much any audio source to drive it... MP3 players, computers, wireless links, etc. This seems to be the trend, as PianoDisc has a system called IQ which works this way as well.

I might add that in order for me to have recording capabilities on my RBB, I've had the PNoscan from www.midi9.com installed under the keys. It's optical, so there will be no contact with the keys. It should do a fairly good job with the LX system in playback quality.

As I mentioned before, as soon as I get the RBB home, I will make some Zoom H4 recordings of all the systems in there, the Ampico, LX, and the PNoscan.

Is there a place where one could find out more of the technical stuff about the piano? I'd love to see what the solenoid rail, sustain solenoid, etc look like. Also, there must be SOME type of user interface, right? How would one turn the system on/off, adjust volume, etc?

About cross-compatibility, I had always figured there'd be a point where they'd all be able to read each other. In some instances though, just the opposite seems to be happening.

Hi,

I realize this is a year later, but did you ever get a chance to make those comparison recordings of the 3 systems (Ampico, LX, PNOscan)? Do you like your PNOscan? Can you convert the MIDI files into LX recordings even though the 0-127 velocity range is smaller than LX format?

Thanks,
Chris

This hyping of unproven product cheaply made in China is falling on my nerves.

Anybody with a system that stood the test of time over the last 100 years?

Norbert

Christopher, I have made some recordings of my LX and the Ampico, but none using the PNo scan. Since I had that PNo scan installed, they have come out with better one. In this post there are some recordings of my Ampico. http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/20253.html

Here are 2 with the LX, also recorded on my 1925 M&Hamlin RBB:

"EL Puerto" by Albeniz p/b Gerald Robbins circa 1982 (originally recorded on a Bosendorfer SE Reproducing Piano)
http://www.box.net/shared/42xo9tnkkw

Earl Wild Plays Chopin on the LX:
http://www.box.net/shared/2y2cun7vzv

Here is a new Shigeru Kawai SK-6 7ft grand with an LX playback system installed. It's very well recorded and will give you a fairly good representation of the Shigeru sound, not to mention the fantastic playback of the LX. Scroll down to the bottom to see and hear the files. Incidentally, if you have a high speed connection, the very large video file is worth the wait to download.

http://www.grandpianohaus.com/iklavier.asp

Yards of hype on this thread. Grandpianoman has done a selling job on us several times before.

LX playback system installed is selling for $7500+ this does not include a front in box media player.
PianoDisc and QRS playback systems installed sell for about $5000.
"HD" software only exists on the 25 CD's that currently exist, otherwise the system performs nearly the same as the other systems. These are the same 25 CD's that have existed for years supporting the Bosie SE system. Nothing new.
System installation does mess with the geometry of the existing pedal trapwork to maintain pedal functions.
System installation does require removing nearly the entire back rail of the action frame of the piano action.
In fairness, there are issues with all of the player systems available.
All the glitters is not gold!

Helpful info for consumers.

Norbert,

I don't understand.

Quote:

This hyping of unproven product cheaply made in China is falling on my nerves.

Anybody with a system that stood the test of time over the last 100 years?

End Quote:

Does this same attitude represent your thoughts on some of the pianos you promote?
What is the difference?

Curious.

Didn't get it?

Why should anybody get the latest "Brodmann Concerto system" when one could simply buy an old player piano with time tested foot pedals....

Norbert

Craigen, I beg your pardon...."yards of hype" and a "selling job"? It is not hype, and, I was not trying to sell anyone nor am I trying to sell anyone an LX system. I was how ever posting my enthusiasm for what is probably the most sophisticated and the best playback system on the market right now.

You also say "the system performs nearly the same as the other systems" Craigen, have you personally heard the LX system play? If you have, I don't see how you can say it "performs nearly the same as the others"...far from it. If anything, it OUTperforms all the others, by a wide margin.

May I re-direct your attention to an earlier post here on PW, where Mr. Stahnke, the inventor of the LX, joins the discussion...I see you posted before he did, but you may have missed his posting. Perhaps it will enlighten you on some of the more finer points of the LX system you may not have been aware of, and will address your comment of there being only 25 "HD" CD's in the LX library.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/21843.html#000015

Hi Grandpianoman,
could you Please give details has how the Pianoscan, records your playing.
do you use, a supplied control box, or a computer?

jeffoldbean.

Hello Jeffoldbean....I can't give you an answer because I have not hooked it up yet. A few years ago, after having bought the PNOscan, I found a Yamaha Disklaivier DGT2IIXG locally, which of course records, and has a full grand keyboard. Given that fact, I felt that the PNOscan was not really necessary, never the less, I had my rebuilder install it anyway since I had already bought it. He ran into a minor issue with the PNOscan's connecting cord, due to a lack of room because of the Ampico and the LX...so at the moment, that issue remains unresolved, and I have felt no need to rectify it at this point.

I may connect it in the future, but I suspect that the quality of the recording playback of this first generation PNOscan is not up to the quality of the DGT2IIXG.

Incidentally, "Jeffoldbean" how did you come up with that name?

Well GPM,
I decided when I retired from BT, ten years ago.
That I would not become a Grumpy Old Man.
So having a first name Jeffrey, and always calling everyone else.
"That quintessencial English name" OLDBEAN. I created jeffoldbean.
I now want to Know what your name Is.
I do not like to be rude.
In not Knowing.
The names,of people that I am talking to.

jeffoldbean.

Not a problem, pvt message sent.