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#102164 - 06/17/07 03:28 PM Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
Funny shaped - but they put a real Imperial action in it. I'd love to try one - time to pop by the Bosendorfer store.


No word yet on the list price.


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If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#102165 - 06/17/07 03:32 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Anyone want to buy a used CLP-280? ;\)

-Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#102166 - 06/17/07 03:48 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
ps - where's the music desk???
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If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#102167 - 06/17/07 04:12 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Anonymous
Unregistered


How much?

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#102168 - 06/17/07 04:12 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
I never thought I'd see the day.
A Boserdorfer digital.

Oye!

Jon, are you just pulling my leg?
Did you just get Photoshop?
Is today April 1?

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#102169 - 06/17/07 04:15 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by PoStTeNeBrAsLuX:
Anyone want to buy a used CLP-280? ;\)

-Michael B. [/b]
What? Adrian is selling his? ;\)
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#102170 - 06/17/07 04:25 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
edit

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#102171 - 06/17/07 04:25 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17767
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I think it's an intriguing blend of classic style and new technology. I'd love to try one.
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My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#102172 - 06/17/07 04:46 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
Kenny - that's different. The CEUS system is a digital player system you have installed in an acoustic Bosendorfer.

Apparently I could retrofit one on mine.


The CESUSMaster Stage Piano is a similar system in its own case.

intriguing....

I'd love to have the real feel of my Bosie while playing silently. That would be just awesome.
_________________________
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#102173 - 06/17/07 04:52 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
My dumb.
I edited my post.

What I really want to know is, can I get the digital in this case?


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#102174 - 06/17/07 11:31 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
westland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 42
Loc: Hong Kong
This will be a fascinating product to watch ... my guess would be above $30K price at least, using Yamaha's MIDI piano's as a reference.

But that cabinet ... awful. I do hope they take a look at at least at Clavia, Voce, Hammond, Yamaha and Kawai's websites to see what could be done with digital piano cabinets. There can be no excuse for putting a beautiful Bosendorfer action in that ugly casket
_________________________
_ _ _ _________________________ _ _ _
August Förster (Loebau) 145 c.1953 | Yamaha P120 | Hammond XM-2 | Rob Allen Deep 4 | Ritter Roya 4

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#102175 - 06/17/07 11:42 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Jonnie P. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 216
Loc: Seattle, WA
_________________________
Jonnie P.
Seattle, WA

Kawai RX-2 ES

Obsessive behaviour: Jazz and other forms of piano improvisation

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#102176 - 06/18/07 12:31 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
bkkmd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 304
Loc: Bangkok, Thailand
Hmm.. I rather like the look of the piano except for the legs which look kind of cheap and why only 2 pedals?

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#102177 - 06/18/07 12:35 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
honkytonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 305
I think it looks cool, reminds me of A Wurlitzer model 200 electric piano.
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#102178 - 06/18/07 01:56 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
atropos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 68
Loc: New York
It's supposed to be 16-20k Euros. I had posted a while back that someone needed to take the step of putting a piano's action in a digital environment, rather than just coming up with 'close enough' alternatives.

The case looks ok, the legs, not so much. (especially for that sort of money).

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#102179 - 06/18/07 02:47 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
fogwall Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Sweden
I tried it out in the Frankfurt Musikmesse a couple of months ago.

The action is authentic to a grand piano, similar to the GT models from Yamaha. But the sound is not adapted to the keyboard in the same way as the GT's which means that the playability is not as good in my opinion. The CEUS is in fact using a computer inside the cabinet with a neat 30 GB library from VSL.

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#102180 - 06/18/07 05:37 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
THanks for the review, fogwall.

SO do you have to buy an external music desk and sit it on top? Or is there some pull-out music stand that I'm not seeing?
_________________________
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#102181 - 06/18/07 07:10 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
We're still exploring distribution options for the CEUS Master keyboard. It uses a model 280 action with the CEUS system for reading key and hammer movement.

We've shown it with a PC and the VSL samples, which has been quite effective since the touch is perfect and the piano sounds are fantastic. However, selling it bundled with a pc presents a sales and service challenge for a small company like ours. This would require a whole additional layer of technical expertise and service capability that one does not simply pull out of a hat.

The other option is to just sell it as a keyboard, no sounds. Purchasers can use any tone generation system they want. That also presents a bit of a sales floor challenge...not so easy to sell something that has no sound. And showing it with substandard piano sound dilutes some of the impact...
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#102182 - 06/18/07 10:52 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
westland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 42
Loc: Hong Kong
A Bosendorfer 280 action with the CEUS system for MIDI translation would be worth $25K in my opinion. The samples, though, have to be a bit of a conundrum. E.g., do you sell a Bosendorfer with Fazioli samples? It would dilute the brand and aid the competition.

I guess my choice (though no one has really asked for my opinion) would be to sell it as a naked MIDI controller, and give customers the power of choice -- have the store sell turnkey hardware packages (e.g., Synthogy Ivory on an Intel dual core machine; M-audio Delta 1010 interface; Tannoy Reveal 8D's ... probably another $5K) preloaded and configured... surely that could be contracted out, along with maintenance... and keep one of the systems in the store for demo. I'm not sure what fogwall means when he says the synthesis is not as well matched to the keyboard, but maybe this is something that could be controlled through the software setup as well. It certainly makes sense for the store musicians and technicians to tweak and fine tune the actual computer setup for optimal sound (and demo-ing) and then letting this be the 'default' setup for delivering with the piano

I didn't mean to be too critical on the case. But I just sort of expected something more creative and attractive from Bosendorfer. And the legs don't look like they would be at all stable ... they look cheesy. If you are going to pay $20K for piano, it should have wood or machined legs. I guess I will stick by my original impression ... I think it's ugly, and doesn't become one of the finest actions in the world.
_________________________
_ _ _ _________________________ _ _ _
August Förster (Loebau) 145 c.1953 | Yamaha P120 | Hammond XM-2 | Rob Allen Deep 4 | Ritter Roya 4

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#102183 - 06/18/07 12:11 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
The legs don't bother me. It's a stage piano - make it easier to move. OTH, it might be nice to have options.

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#102184 - 06/18/07 12:27 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2721
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Good God, it's a Farfisa, it's a Bosendorfer, it's a Farfisa Bosendorfer.

That's my way of saying the case design is cheesy, not to mention the lack of a music desk. As for it being just a midi controller, that's to understate it, a marketing disaster. There are many excellent piano sample libraries that run on a variety of platforms. I understand the folks at Bosendorfer are not computer guys, but they can find computer guys to design a dedicated system into which they could load any of a variety of sample libraries they could easily license.

My impression is that someone figured they could seel their world class action as a midi controller. The Bosendorfer action is very good, but the only people who would most likely be willing to pony up $20 for just the action would probably be willing to pay up for the rest of the piano. I could see a Bosendorfer action with a dedicated sound system being worth perhaps $10K maybe a little more. Somebody in their marketing department needs to bone up on elasticity of demand.

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#102185 - 06/18/07 02:51 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
To sell a midi controller, with no sound system, no computer interface and cheapo legs for circa $20k is dreamland.

If it is aimed at professionals, then Boesendorfer need to recognise that a good many people in the music business use Mac's not PC's.

If it is a stage piano it has to be practical. Gloss black is not practical for lugging instruments around as in no time it will look like someone has beaten it up.

If it is a home piano then it needs some proper legs! And three pedals.

This thing will compete against excellent digital offerings from, for example, Yamaha and Kawai, both with realistic actions and sold in stripped down stage versions (eg MP8) and fully kitted home versions (eg CLP 280 and the new series Kawai with a proper soundboard) for a fraction of the price.

I suspect that digital buyers will be far less swayed by the Boesendorfer brand cachet than acoustic piano buyers.

My instinct is that this instrument may well be very high quality and be capable of good results, but has been driven by the same marketing genius that came up with such masterstrokes as the Boesendorfer leather covered pianos and hideous, tacky over-priced "art case" PSO's.

Boesendorfer make some very good acoustic pianos. Please - stick to what you do best and keep it simple!

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#102186 - 06/18/07 03:21 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Rodney Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Caledon ON, Canada
I believe that this unit (in more attractive packaging) bundled with a Muse Receptor (loaded with the East West Bösendorfer 290 or Synthogy Ivory sample libraries) and a pair of quality near field monitors (Tannoy, KRK, Mackie, etc.) could be a huge hit if sold in the $10K-$12K USD price point.

Authentic piano action with realistic & upgradable/expandable sound libraries seems like a win to me BUT it must be done at a reasonable price. $20K+ and I can outfit an entire project studio so it's unlikely that there could be much of a market (if any) at that price point.

My 2 cents,

Rodney

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#102187 - 06/18/07 04:55 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
atropos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 68
Loc: New York
It's nice... but 20k? For that sort of change, there is a wealth of used / new grands to be had.

It would need to have the action it does, AND have sounds that completely surpass things like Ivory to have a niche market, I'd say, as well as 3 pedals.

I suspect that as a stage piano for a gigging musician, it would be too heavy and too delicate for serious consideration. Maybe I'm wrong.

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#102188 - 06/18/07 06:15 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Fanny Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 34
Cool idea, but that thing is butt-ugly. Looks like First Act designed it.

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#102189 - 06/18/07 07:31 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
westland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 42
Loc: Hong Kong
The price doesn't bother me because you get a real Bosendorfer action ... in my experience this and the Fazioli are the best, most responsive, most comfortable actions in the world. The product doesn't compete directly with, say, a P120. It is a 'no holds barred' best digital piano in the world niche.

It may not be as durable as a Yamaha p120 (what grand piano action is?) but I would imagine that the B-digital would be much more portable than the real Imperial... Oscar Peterson, e.g., used to move his around on concert tours, and that had to be a nightmare to move. It's imaginable that some concert artists might choose to tour with their own instrument if it came in a small case like this, and they were happy with the sound. I can certainly see a market for a superb action in a portable ... not having to change technique, or get used to a new touch would be of great benefit to touring pianists.

I also would disagree with the idea that Bosendorfer should stick to acoustic pianos ... I can't think of a better company to make a digital with realistic touch and sound. I just don't think they've come up with as good a product yet as they are capable of. They need to spend more time on the whole system (from human finger all the way back to human ear, not forgetting the eyes in between) and on the potential markets, which I think could be substantial. What if all the concert pianists toured with their own piano, rather than relying on Steinway to make sure they have a piano on location?

It's more or less like the Bosendorfer pianos ... $100K is a lot to pay for a piano, but Bosendorfer can do it, because it really does deliver.

But Bosendorfer does have the challenge of producing a digital piano to lives up to their enviable reputation (and the $25K) ... that means it has to work on touch, sound and looks. I think they should hire a design firm ... how about an Austrian firm like Heufler Design?
_________________________
_ _ _ _________________________ _ _ _
August Förster (Loebau) 145 c.1953 | Yamaha P120 | Hammond XM-2 | Rob Allen Deep 4 | Ritter Roya 4

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#102190 - 06/19/07 03:03 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
fogwall Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Sweden
 Quote:
Originally posted by westland:
I'm not sure what fogwall means when he says the synthesis is not as well matched to the keyboard, but maybe this is something that could be controlled through the software setup as well.[/b]
These are in fact opinions I heard from other musicians who tried it out at the Messe and I agree about it.

When I play on my Yamaha GT2 I feel a stronger connection to the instrument, a response which is immediate as if coming from the instrument and not from a collection of recorded samples.

It seems to me that the GT models were developed with a Yamaha CF played side by side, assuring that the GT gives a similar powerful dynamic "in your face" response with an extremely well configured velocity curve to insure that it will not only sound but also feel like playing the real thing. When pressing a key I want to feel that the hammer hits a string, not that a recorded file is being played.

The only disadvantage of the GT models as I see it (this also concerns the Disklaviers) is that the sample range is very limited. However, adding another 200 MB should in my opinion be enough to get rid of the obvious transitions between notes, offering string resonance simulation (as this is offered in digial pianos today) and key off samples.

I think that what will impress on pianists is not the amount of gigabytes of samples but rather that the samples and their velocities are tailored in great detail, adapted to the CEUS, using flash memory cards with a RISC processor instead of a computer unit with a hazardous operative system with long loading times.
_________________________
www.fogwall.com

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#102191 - 06/19/07 03:44 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I think there is a more fundamental issue. if one can buy a Kawai Ca(?)91 that has a proper wooden action, and a wooden soundboard with a transducer to reproduce acoustic piano sounds, plus string resonance simulation and a lot of flexibility on room acoustic simulation, midi capabilities and so on....why would one spend five times as much for an equally heavy Boesendorfer that may have a better action but lacks most of the other things.

My guess is that this product was designed before Boesendorfer realised what Kawai and Yamaha are up to with their next generation digital instruments.

Quality differentiation between acoustic pianos is apparent in many areas. I feel that such differentiation is much harder to achieve with digitals.

If you look on the digital forum, a large amount of space is taken up with sound emulation (using various different systems). It is possible to model many different tier 1 grands now very realistically. Both Kawai and yamaha are capable of building excellent actions into their instruments and I doubt if a genuine Boesendorfer action (made by Renner) will be enough of a selling point to outweigh the other deficiencies and justify a price of four or five times that of the competition. Bear in mind we are talking about digital buyers here - the debates on digitals are much less emotive than those we see about acoustics over here.

I am sure that Boesendorfer has a niche market for this instrument and presumably it sees itself as a low volume digital supplier rather than the iPod of the digital piano market?

Anyway, I would like to try one out!

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#102192 - 06/19/07 07:16 AM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6171
Question:

Leave everything exactly the same, but change the brand name to, say, "Brodmann" -- how much would you be willing to pay for this?
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#102193 - 06/19/07 02:10 PM Re: Bosendorfer Digital Piano?
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Well that would be interesting - to have an anonymous comparison. My view is that at the upper end of the digital spectrum, there is not much to choose between the offerings from the different brands. I have a suspicion that this is a perception that pervades the digital market, hence premium brands substantially higher in price will struggle. A
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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