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#277774 - 06/28/07 11:07 PM Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
sk8erk8er Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 13
Loc: Michigan
Hi
I am looking for a piano for my daughter and myself. We are taking lessons. I have tried several (some to much $$$). Today I tried a Kawai RX1 and RX2. I liked it, but am looking for input on the Millennium III Action using ABS Carbon. I have searched for info on this sight and not found any opinions on the RX series. Maybe you have one. Please share.
Does anyone know what a good price for a new RX2 is?

thanks

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#277775 - 06/29/07 12:18 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
honkytonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 305
I don't know where you're searching, but if you search this forum for "kawai rx" under "title only", you'll find six pages of results about these pianos.
_________________________
Former Piano Salesman

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#277776 - 06/29/07 05:57 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Mr. Widmore Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 531
Loc: Lost
An RX is a good choice in my opinion. I owned one before having my Steinway. If you can, consider the longest one between those two, the RX-2. It's great for home. Good sound and good action, not a German action, but one of the best within the price range of those pianos.
_________________________
And in my twisted face... there's not the slightest trace of anything that even hints at kindness...

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#277777 - 06/29/07 07:22 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
sk8erk8er Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 13
Loc: Michigan
Thank you very much for all the messages. I don't know how I could of missed the info. I have been reading all morning. I am going to buy The L. Fine Book.


thank you again.

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#277778 - 06/29/07 08:56 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
The Millenium III action is smooth, responsive and fast. Its ABS Carbon Fiber components are not affected by changes in humidity, so the action remains consistent in all environmental conditions. Its' light weight, as compared to wood parts, allows it to be stronger, yet 16% faster than a Renner, or other, wood action mechanism. The RX pianos are very well made and have a tonal character that is TYPICALLY more complex and less bright than the other Japanese giant, Yamaha(Although this can, of course, vary occasionally). This is due to use of a less densely compressed felt used in their hammers and their scale design. People on this forum have typically been paying around $15,000.00 for the RX2 over the past few years, but the "going" price may very well have increased by a thousand or two of late. Overall, these pianos are a very good value for the money.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#277779 - 06/29/07 09:06 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
 Quote:
CC2 and Chopin lover wrote:

The Millenium III action is ... light weight, as compared to wood parts, allows it to be stronger, yet 16% faster[/b] than a Renner, or other, wood action mechanism.
Not that I don't like the Millenium III, but this is the first time I see the "16% faster" claim. Would you please refer me to the source of that claim? I'd like to see what was measured to get to that "16% faster" claim. Thanks.
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#277780 - 06/29/07 10:28 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Sure Ax,
Here you go.
Dan

Millenium III Action
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#277781 - 06/29/07 12:23 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
The only claim about speed I see regarding their grand action is that it is 25% faster than "our previous action." Perhaps I missed something, though. I'm not a good enough pianist to outplay the old action, so who cares? \:D

Seriously, though, I have played an RX-2 with the newer action, and it is very nice. Fast, light, even, and responsive. My feeling is that the going price for an RX-2 is probably in the $17K to $18K range. I think $15K would be exceptional but perhaps not impossible under the right circumstances.
_________________________
Dennis

flickr


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#277782 - 06/29/07 01:00 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Dennis,
The link I provided takes you to this quote regarding action speed:
 Quote:
FASTER
With lighter ABS-Carbon parts, the Millennium III Upright Action was made faster – approximately 16% faster than a conventional wooden action.
Here is the link again;
Millenium III speed claim

Since the speed claim is being made wholly on the fact that the materials that make up the action parts are lighter than a comparable wood version, and since grand actions are, by nature, even faster than uprights, one might extrapolate that this weight difference would equate to an even greater speed increase in a grand action, since there is less gravity to overcome in the upright action mechanism.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#277783 - 06/29/07 01:06 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
CC2 and Chopin lover -- thanks for the link. \:\)

I assume that claim applies only to upright piano action, not necessarily to grand piano action. I'm still hoping to find out what they were measuring to come up with that 16% number (even if it's confined to comparing upright piano action).
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#277784 - 06/29/07 01:10 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Ax, I'm a little confused here. I think you told me that the RX-A I tried was a Millenium II. And now Millenium III is supposed to be so much lighter? I thought the RX-A was so heavy for me although it may be perfect for others. My experience has been that Kawai actions have been heavier and intentionally made so (upright or grand).
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My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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#277785 - 06/29/07 02:06 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
honkytonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 305
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Ax, I'm a little confused here. I think you told me that the RX-A I tried was a Millenium II. And now Millenium III is supposed to be so much lighter? I thought the RX-A was so heavy for me although it may be perfect for others. My experience has been that Kawai actions have been heavier and intentionally made so (upright or grand). [/b]
Just because action parts are lighter, it does not mean that the touch will feel lighter. However, it should mean that action is capable of being more responsive.
_________________________
Former Piano Salesman

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#277786 - 06/29/07 03:11 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
My RX-2 (late 2005) has the Millenium III action and so far I am very happy with it. It is very smooth, fast and easy to control, especially in soft passages. The sound is mellow, yet powerful enough for home use, and is well suited for classical music.
I am biased here, but I highly recommend RX-2. It is definitely a fine quality piano.

Hakki.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#277787 - 06/29/07 03:34 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Oops! sorry double post.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#277788 - 06/29/07 06:28 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Honkytonk, unfortunately, at least for me, it did not feel responsive (I'm talking about the Millenium II action here). If this is supposed to be ABS or whatever, my gut reaction was a friction problem. I was not playing a new piano, however it is true that it was almost unused.

I had a little friction in my Steinway and I think I can recognize a friction feel now as it affects the return/upweight. My Steinway was adjusted and it is now to factory specs for downweight (about 55gms in middle C). And very responsive.

So maybe the particular Kawai just had friction, however, I've felt in other examples, as well as confirmed by other posts that Kawai tends to have a higher downweight, like closer to 65gms.

On the other hand, I would have thought that these ABS parts would have less friction, which didn't jive with my actual experience. Perhaps the friction was coming from key bushings. Weird on a used piano.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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#277789 - 06/29/07 06:32 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

Ax, I'm a little confused here. I think you told me that the RX-A I tried was a Millenium II. And now Millenium III is supposed to be so much lighter? I thought the RX-A was so heavy for me although it may be perfect for others. My experience has been that Kawai actions have been heavier and intentionally made so (upright or grand).
Sorry to say that I don't recall having claimed that the RX-A has "Millenium II"... I was not aware that there ever was a "Millenium II" that's been marketed by Kawai. I apologize if I've told you anything to the contrary in the past.

In any case, all the RX-A's I've seen to date ("newest" sample being from 1996) have mostly WOOD action. My own 1992 RX-A has all wood action except the whippen support flanges that are ABS (san carbon). I've played Millenium III in newer GE, RX as well as in Shigeru series -- and, at least to me, they do often feel "lighter" than the ABS (san carbon) action and the wood action in older Kawais (like my RX-A and older KG series grands).
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#277790 - 06/29/07 06:37 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Well in that case, then my comments don't apply to anything other than the RX-A and someday, I'll try out this Millenium III action and have a better opinion on that.

Thanks Ax.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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#277791 - 06/30/07 02:48 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
Dennis,
The link I provided takes you to this quote regarding action speed:
 Quote:
FASTER
With lighter ABS-Carbon parts, the Millennium III Upright Action was made faster – approximately 16% faster than a conventional wooden action.
Here is the link again;
Millenium III speed claim

Since the speed claim is being made wholly on the fact that the materials that make up the action parts are lighter than a comparable wood version, and since grand actions are, by nature, even faster than uprights, one might extrapolate that this weight difference would equate to an even greater speed increase in a grand action, since there is less gravity to overcome in the upright action mechanism. [/b]
Okay, I really didn;t look at that since it is referring to uprights, and the poster wanted to know about grands. I found my information on their grand page. One might extrapolate as you have, but then again one might not. \:D I'm not trying to be argumentative, but upright actions and grand actions are quite different animals.
_________________________
Dennis

flickr


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#277792 - 06/30/07 11:40 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Captain Obvious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 182
I don't find the action on my RX-2 to be that responsive. It's too heavy.

I think it is a mistake to say "Millenium III" is great, responsive, whatever. It might be fast and responsive in an RX-7, and not in an RX-5. I imagine you may be able to make universal claims of the quality (which is usually very positive), but I don't think the performance or feel is necessarily consistent.

As the owner of an RX-2, I can say that overall I'm not impressed with it. Mine showed up with string leveling issues, radical tone difference between neighboring notes, funny noises with the soft pedal in use, and a few notes in the fifth octave that just don't sound good. The dealer sent a tech out, and it's no better. Oh, and apparently this tech is a hand picked candidate to go to the Shigeru tech school. This guy should be hand selected to Piano 101.

I paid $12,185 after rebate for the RX-2.

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#277793 - 06/30/07 03:48 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
 Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
I don't find the action on my RX-2 to be that responsive. It's too heavy.

I think it is a mistake to say "Millenium III" is great, responsive, whatever. It might be fast and responsive in an RX-7, and not in an RX-5. I imagine you may be able to make universal claims of the quality (which is usually very positive), but I don't think the performance or feel is necessarily consistent.

As the owner of an RX-2, I can say that overall I'm not impressed with it. Mine showed up with string leveling issues, radical tone difference between neighboring notes, funny noises with the soft pedal in use, and a few notes in the fifth octave that just don't sound good. The dealer sent a tech out, and it's no better. Oh, and apparently this tech is a hand picked candidate to go to the Shigeru tech school. This guy should be hand selected to Piano 101.

I paid $12,185 after rebate for the RX-2. [/b]
"Too heavy". I am sorry to hear that you have problems with your RX-2. I think I was lucky with my RX-2.
I find my action lighter than Yamaha C series grands. I also tried an older RX-1 (pre-millenium) and a KG-2, they were both heavier than the new RXs, KG-2 being much heavier.
Hope they can fix your piano's problems soon.

Hakki.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#277794 - 06/30/07 04:52 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
sk8erk8er, also here are two sample recordings of my RX-2.
Capt.Obv. do you hear any annoying sounds in these two samples too?

http://www.savefile.com/files/854134

http://www.savefile.com/files/854122

Hakki.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#277795 - 06/30/07 05:56 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1318
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Why pay good money for a piano that disappoints you? It is the responsibility of the buyer to appraise the piano before purchase and most unwise to buy without having adequately played and assessed the instrument, even if it is new. There is considerable variablity of sound and feel of instruments even within the same model of piano.
Of course, it is most disappointing to discover that the new piano of all your hopes turns out to be defective. However, warranty should be invoked in this situation to protect the purchaser.
Kawai is a well respected piano company and while there may be the odd sub standard instrument slipping through their quality control over an output of tens of thousands, we should be cautious in making a generalisation.

Kind regards,

Robert.

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#277796 - 06/30/07 06:08 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1318
Loc: Auckland New Zealand

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#277797 - 06/30/07 07:22 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
Captain, I am curious too as to why you bought the RX-2. How did you get a price like that on it? Was it a local dealer?

How long did the tech actually work on the piano? Did he really prep it?
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#277798 - 06/30/07 09:29 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
 Quote:
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but upright actions and grand actions are quite different animals.[/b]
Hi Dennis,
Yes, upright and grand actions ARE quite different animals, to be sure, and that very difference is what I base my extrapolation on. A grand's action mechanism is much more subject to the effects of gravity. As the front of the key is depressed, and the rear portion rises, the capstan must lift the mass of the wippen and jack assembly, as well as the hammer and shank, against the force of gravity. Reducing this mass significantly by changing the material that the bulk of the mechanism is composed of will significantly reduce the energy and inertial forces required to initiate movement and return it to resting position. In the upright mechanism this is not the case, and springs are used instead. Since the only aspect of the upright action being changed to make it 16% faster than a similar wood action is the decreased mass of the ABS Carbon, it stands to reason that such a mass decrease in a grand action, which relies more on gravity than an upright, will yield an even greater speed increase. \:D
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#277799 - 06/30/07 11:34 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Captain Obvious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 182
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hakki:
sk8erk8er, also here are two sample recordings of my RX-2.
Capt.Obv. do you hear any annoying sounds in these two samples too?

http://www.savefile.com/files/854122

http://www.savefile.com/files/854134

Hakki. [/b]
I think your piano sounds great.

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#277800 - 06/30/07 11:57 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Captain Obvious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 182
 Quote:
Originally posted by mikhailoh:
Captain, I am curious too as to why you bought the RX-2. How did you get a price like that on it? Was it a local dealer?

How long did the tech actually work on the piano? Did he really prep it? [/b]
All good questions.

I bought the RX from a dealer that is about 150 miles away because he was offering me a good deal. I played the piano in the store (after driving 2 hours after work). It was not my dream piano, but it was a piano that is well regarded in the forum, and I found no major flaws other than a substandard note (C#2 .. was a string leveling issue). Unfortunately, it isn't like I could easily return to the store and play this particular model two or three different times. I decided the price was excellent, and I needed a piano... my digital wasn't good enough any more.

One I got the piano home, that fifth octave just bugged the heck out of me. Timing for getting the tech out and working around my vacation was suboptimal. Ryan at Kuyper's music told me I could feel confident in the purchase because he would let me trade up to a nicer piano and receive full credit for the RX-2 if I wasn't happy with the piano. Well, I decided to trade up, and he told me he couldn't do it because I had registered the piano (which was part of the rebate process... I had a limited time to send in the rebate form). He said he'd give me $7500 for the piano.

Regarding the tech visit, all told it was about 4 hours. He told me he had another appointment in a city three hours away, and I think that was a real conflict of interest. He informed me it is important that the piano be tuned before voicing or checking for problems, but he only tuned part of the piano. I asked him to check the string leveling in the bass section because a lot of the notes had a little bit of a pipe organ sounding chirp if played moderately. Well, he fixed some, and not others. I complained of a boing noise in a note... still there. We tried to chase down the fifth octave F problem to no avail. He failed to fix the fifth octave G which is much brighter than the surrounding notes. He couldn't figure out why during or after soft pedal engagement, the keys make a plasticy clicky noise. He over-adjusted the soft pedal to where the hammers were just grazing the third unison, so I had to point that out to him. I asked about making the action feel smoother/lighter, and he didn't feel comfortable working on the MIII action... maybe that was overstepping the bounds of reasonable request on my part though... not sure.

To summarize, the dealer did try to make things right by sending a tech, but he sent a crappy tech who was in a hurry in my opinion. Point two, I feel I was mislead about the trade-up option. And side note: If I could upgrade, would I want that same tech working on the better piano???

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#277801 - 07/01/07 12:46 AM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
 Quote:
Captain Obvious wrote:

To summarize, the dealer did try to make things right by sending a tech, but he sent a crappy tech who was in a hurry in my opinion. Point two, I feel I was mislead about the trade-up option. And side note: If I could upgrade, would I want that same tech working on the better piano???
Very sorry to read about your bad experience here.

Agree on both points: Sending a tech without budgeting enough time for the tech to do the job is bad; Misleading customer on the trade-up option is also bad (shame on the dealer). [Retracted, see post below.]

Upgrade or not, find a different tech.

(Though that $12k+ price you got... that's probably already cutting it into the bone. What's the price before your mail-in rebate?)

If you ever buy another piano, I hope you don't buy one with detected flaw and then hoping that it will go away after purchase -- make sure the piano you buy has no flaw that you cannot live with before making your next purchase. Good luck.
_________________________
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#277802 - 07/02/07 07:26 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Ryan -the musicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/06
Posts: 27
Loc: Iowa
Here are some facts that you all should know since my integrity and that of my company has been brought into question.

First of all, my tech was not to service the piano according to the agreement due to pricing (which I ultimately paid to have done to try and satisfy my customer). My tech is quite talented (in the opinions of many college professors, hundreds of rpt's and Don Manino) however my tech did have a bad experience with this particular customer and I am willing to take partial responsibility for that.

I did offer full trade/refund within a couple weeks, if he got his piano home decided he didn't like it. I would let him trade up to an Estonia or Shigeru. However he decided to keep the piano as it was acceptable and also had registered his RX-2.

Then almost a quarter of a year later the customer would like me to sell him an Estonia 190 for around 20k and give him all his money back on trade for a piano that I can't sell as new. I told him that I wasn't going to do that. Now I have an upset customer.

I felt bad and even offered to help him sell his piano so he could get his most if not all of his money back.

I tried my best to help if anyone knows of something more I reasonably could do let me know.

However I do have a question if the customer ever paid a tech to come and actually prep his piano since thats the way he wanted at the point of sale.
_________________________
Ryan McMahan

No longer active in the music retail business just hanging around now

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#277803 - 07/02/07 07:33 PM Re: Opinions on the Kawai RX series??
Ryan -the musicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/06
Posts: 27
Loc: Iowa
Sorry forgot to add this but Kawai makes an amazing piano at their price point. I have only had 2 unsatisfied customers one which was resolved due to warranty issue. Kawai is amazing on quick response to warranty problems. They stand behind their products. We've had a really good track record with them.
_________________________
Ryan McMahan

No longer active in the music retail business just hanging around now

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