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#5169 - 09/18/07 08:38 PM Tried my first Hailun today
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
This was the first I'd seen a Hailun, and this place had just a FEW Kawais sitting around too for comparison (that's a joke--they were everywhere). There were also Baldwins galore, but they do nothing for me.

I tried the Hailun HG178, a 5'10". I liked it better than the Kawai RX2, which is the same size, but twice the price. The Hailun had a nicer sound and touch, very different from the Kawai. The bass was nice and clear.

Has anyone else tried these pianos? I'd like to see one in Mahogany, but there isn't even one on their website. Also, what is the list price in the new supplement for an HG178?
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#5170 - 09/18/07 09:02 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Maxg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 25
Loc: France
Hailun is the name of the factory in southern China those pianos come from. In fact, they are sold under a lot of names worldwide (e.g they're called Wendl & Lung in the E.U.), each with their own flavor, and I must agree that they are pretty decent pianos given their more than affordable price. I'm even concidering buying one before the end of the year, my biggest concern being the quality of the materials.

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#5171 - 09/18/07 09:10 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7219
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
I tried the Hailun HG178, a 5'10". I liked it better than the Kawai RX2, which is the same size, but twice the price. The Hailun had a nicer sound and touch, very different from the Kawai. The bass was nice and clear.
Dinin,

With this comment you're really asking to get hammered \:D . But I understand where you're coming from.

To follow up on the last post, in the US you will find the 178 sold as a Hailun and also as a Steigerman premium.

Both offer walnut or mahogany polish (although those finishes are not pictured in the websites).
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#5172 - 09/18/07 09:19 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10490
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by diinin:
Also, what is the list price in the new supplement for an HG178? [/b]
Please take no offense as it was not your intention, but it is a tad unfair to Larry Fine for us to quote list prices he spent time accumulating and publishing. After all, it is his copyrighted book.

You can order the Suppliment right on this page, at the bottom right.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#5173 - 09/18/07 09:50 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
Steve, the list price isn't copyrighted. Isn't that just the manufacturer's retail price? So that's basically public knowledge, only compiled by Fine.

I have last year's supplement, but haven't yet ordered the new one. (Tried to go thru the process of seeing if I could download it, but was afraid my Adobe thingee wasn't up to par).
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#5174 - 09/18/07 09:59 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Please take no offense as it was not your intention, but it is a tad unfair to Larry Fine for us to quote list prices he spent time accumulating and publishing. After all, it is his copyrighted book.
Is this really a question of 'fairness to Larry Fine' or possibly some worries about a new heavy-weight coming to market??

Norbert \:\(
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#5175 - 09/18/07 10:01 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10490
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by diinin:
Steve, the list price isn't copyrighted. Isn't that just the manufacturer's retail price? So that's basically public knowledge, only compiled by Fine.

I have last year's supplement, but haven't yet ordered the new one. (Tried to go thru the process of seeing if I could download it, but was afraid my Adobe thingee wasn't up to par). [/b]
No. Lrry does NOT base his "List" prices on the manufacturer's MSRPs. And even if he did and it were public knowledge, he still spent the time and effort compiling it.

What I read in the newspaper is also public knowledge, but copyrighted.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#5176 - 09/18/07 10:07 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
With this comment you're really asking to get hammered \:D . But I understand where you're coming from.

To follow up on the last post, in the US you will find the 178 sold as a Hailun and also as a Steigerman premium. [/b]
Haha. Well, it's not my intention to stir anything up, but just had to state my opinion. I'd only tried Kawai GM and GEs, and wasn't overly thrilled with them. I thought the RX would change my mind. Not that it wasn't nice. I just expected to like it more than I did.

So Hailun and Steigerman premium are the same? I've hear the Steigerman premiums are pretty nice.
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#5177 - 09/18/07 10:11 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
ASOP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 144
Loc: USA
Is the Hailun diinin is looking at the same piano as the Steigerman premium?

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#5178 - 09/18/07 10:28 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Similiar perhaps but not exactly 'same'

Steigerman Premium has certain exclusive features such as Renner hammers
and copper tone type finish on their iron frames.

If they are similiar pianos, or if one of them is more preferable to the other, is something best left to those who have a chance to play them each.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#5179 - 09/18/07 10:43 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10490
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
 Quote:
Please take no offense as it was not your intention, but it is a tad unfair to Larry Fine for us to quote list prices he spent time accumulating and publishing. After all, it is his copyrighted book.
Is this really a question of 'fairness to Larry Fine' or possibly some worries about a new heavy-weight coming to market??

Norbert \:\( [/b]
:rolleyes:
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#5180 - 09/18/07 10:56 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
ASOP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 144
Loc: USA
Sounds like Hailun is letting their upscale version be labeled under Steigerman. Something doesn't sound right- what am I missing?

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#5181 - 09/18/07 11:14 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
And even if he did and it were public knowledge, he still spent the time and effort compiling it.

What I read in the newspaper is also public knowledge, but copyrighted. [/b]
Okay, well, I think you're taking the copyright a little far. When something is published, it may be copyrighted, but can still be quoted, and often is.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to get out of having to buy the latest supplement. I'd already have it if I could've figured out how to switch my Adobe "on" the other day. Now I have to order the paperback version. Either way, I'll get the info. You can keep a clear conscience and let me find out on my own.
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#5182 - 09/18/07 11:21 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by diinin:
Also, what is the list price in the new supplement for an HG178?
Please take no offense as it was not your intention, but it is a tad unfair to Larry Fine for us to quote list prices he spent time accumulating and publishing. After all, it is his copyrighted book.

You can order the Suppliment right on this page, at the bottom right.
Not any more "unfair" than to quote the Group/Tier rating. I'll bet you one Piano World CD that Larry Fine spent more time/effort doing surveys and putting the ratings together than he did collecting price lists and publishing them. If one has no problem quoting "this piano is in Tier XX," then one should have no problem quoting list price on copyright grounds. Quote away! \:\)
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#5183 - 09/18/07 11:25 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10490
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by diinin:
Also, what is the list price in the new supplement for an HG178?
Please take no offense as it was not your intention, but it is a tad unfair to Larry Fine for us to quote list prices he spent time accumulating and publishing. After all, it is his copyrighted book.

You can order the Suppliment right on this page, at the bottom right.
Not any more "unfair" than to quote the Group/Tier rating. I'll bet you one Piano World CD that Larry Fine spent more time/effort doing surveys and putting the ratings together than he did collecting price lists and publishing them. If one has no problem quoting "this piano is in Tier XX," then one should have no problem quoting list price on copyright grounds. Quote away! \:\) [/b]
Interesting point. I'll have to think about that!

Where does one draw the line?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#5184 - 09/18/07 11:28 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
 Quote:
Originally posted by diinin:
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
With this comment you're really asking to get hammered \:D . But I understand where you're coming from.

To follow up on the last post, in the US you will find the 178 sold as a Hailun and also as a Steigerman premium.
Haha. Well, it's not my intention to stir anything up, but just had to state my opinion. I'd only tried Kawai GM and GEs, and wasn't overly thrilled with them. I thought the RX would change my mind. Not that it wasn't nice. I just expected to like it more than I did.
There shouldn't be any stigma to stating one's preference for the cheaper piano better even when the more expensive alternative is not[/b] Steinway. ;\)
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#5185 - 09/18/07 11:37 PM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
Not any more "unfair" than to quote the Group/Tier rating. I'll bet you one Piano World CD that Larry Fine spent more time/effort doing surveys and putting the ratings together than he did collecting price lists and publishing them. If one has no problem quoting "this piano is in Tier XX," then one should have no problem quoting list price on copyright grounds. Quote away! \:\)
Interesting point. I'll have to think about that!

Where does one draw the line?
Pragmatically - one draws the line on one's bottom line. Buyers want all pricing info to be freely available. Seller want pricing info to remain secret. Each believe that his preferred reality can help his bottom line.

Legally - probably won't know until Larry Fine takes some one to court for "quoting" his material on Piano World Forums (which he may never do, so we may never find out).

Alternatively - Frank the webmaster can always set down whatever guidelines he want regarding quoting Larry Fine and enforce them. It's his place after all. \:D
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#5186 - 09/19/07 12:07 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
birchy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Vancouver
Diinin, I have a Steigerman Premium 178, and I love it. As to how it compares to what you sampled, I can't say for certain. There are some customized elements to the Steigermans such as Renner hammers, and I haven't had a chance to play the Hailun model. The dealer should be able to give you a detailed spec list.

I can tell you that my experience was much like yours - the sound I get out of my 178 just thrills me. I sampled quite a few pianos during my own search, which I talk about here - My New Grand 178.

A few nights ago I had some good friends over for a get-together. They hadn't seen my piano yet, and those who could play wanted to try it out. One of my mild-mannered friends led off the evening with a mind-boggling perfect performance of a Chopin Prelude. He opened with some thunderous chords, then moved into a pianissimo section. The effect of the extreme dynamics and the rich overtones of the chords just raised the hair on my neck!

People were just blown away by both the playing (we never knew this guy could play like he did) and also by the sound of the piano. As one said, "I've heard that piece played a lot, and I've never heard it sound so good."

I purchased the piano in May, and so I've had several months now to think about the very significant amount of money I've "invested" in musical pleasure and the emotional benefits it provides. That evening's experience underscored what I already knew: it was one of the best things I have ever done.

I just hope that your search ends as happily as mine, regardless of whether you choose that particular piano or another one.


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#5187 - 09/19/07 01:16 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
Anyone who thinks prices are capable of being copyrighted is, well, wrong. To put it rather politely.

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#5188 - 09/19/07 01:40 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10490
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
J. Mark, a question.

Larry Fine collects wholesale prices from a number of industry connections he has developed over the years. He applies a formula to those wholesale prices, after some adjustments he feels appropriate, to arrive at his estimated list prices. He then publishes them as part of his Suppliment.

Assuming the above is an accurate description, do his list prices have any legal copyright protection?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#5189 - 09/19/07 01:51 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
SCCDoug Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 663
Loc: Canada
In the age of the internet to say that 'fair use' is subject to debate would be an understatement.
_________________________
Doug

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#5190 - 09/19/07 01:51 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
I really don't think so, Steve. And certainly not in isolated instances. That is, the mere republication of a single, or several, examples of his price calculations would not constitute a copyright infringement, in my view. Maybe if someone took the entire compilation and simply reprinted it...maybe. Even then, since that is only a part of the copyrighted work, it may have some Fair Use protections -- a separate question, of course. But no, the mere fact that he applied some formula (derived from industry standards, no less) to reach his numbers is not enough to give copyright protection to each and every number, or even subsets of numbers.

Now...a question for you, my friend: why are you so uptight about the publication of pricing information on the Internet?

\:\)

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#5191 - 09/19/07 01:58 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
SCCDoug Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 663
Loc: Canada
My middle child (16) did a research paper recently on file sharing and intellectual property rights. One thing that seemed clear was that any use for commercial gain was clearly a problem, beyond that there seemed a lot of wiggle room. If I were Larry Fine, the more times I was quoted on this forum the happier I would be. He sells a lot of books because of us.
_________________________
Doug

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#5192 - 09/19/07 02:07 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Is this thread about copyrights or a piano?

Maybe the piano should be 'copyrighted' instead of simply its 'price' -
at least one got something to 'protect'....

Norbert \:D
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#5193 - 09/19/07 02:44 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Vince in Vegas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 169
Loc: Las Vegas
From J. Mark: "Now...a question for you, my friend: why are you so uptight about the publication of pricing information on the Internet?"

Great question! I'm all ears uh eyes!

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#5194 - 09/19/07 03:19 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Is this thread about copyrights or a piano?

\:D [/b]
:D \:D You tell me! Leave it to me to start yet another controversial thread! :rolleyes:
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#5195 - 09/19/07 03:27 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
 Quote:
Originally posted by birchy:
Diinin, I have a Steigerman Premium 178, and I love it... [/b]
Thank you, birchy, for taking the time to tell about your experience! I only wish I could have been there to hear Chopin's prelude--my favorite composer, no less--on your new Steigerman!

I'd love to compare the two brands. I'll hunt around and see if there is a dealer somewhere nearby, and also get that spec list from this dealer.
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#5196 - 09/19/07 03:32 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7219
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Norbert:
Is this thread about copyrights or a piano?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You tell me! Leave it to me to start yet another controversial thread!
Well, you did say it sounded better than a well-respected Japanese grand that costs twice as much. \:D

Your position in this thread is somewhat like a patient on the operating table waiting for the surgical team to finish an argument about the best protocol.

SUGGESTION: If you post the price offered you, members unwilling to give you the Fine price might comment on how your price stacks up against it.

One thing to remember. Hailun is only recently rolling out its dealer network. Their pianos have created a buzz. You won't be able to wield the same size price-chopping axe that you might if this were yet another two-to-three year old 'new' Chinese piano collecting dust in the corner of a dealer's showroom. The chances are very good that this piano will cost more in six months than it does now. The chances are pretty slim that it will cost less.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#5197 - 09/19/07 04:12 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
Originally posted by turandot:
 Quote:
Your position in this thread is somewhat like a patient on the operating table waiting for the surgical team to finish an argument about the best protocol.[/b]
Oh, the visual! (I'm a nurse--AND a patient) \:D


 Quote:
SUGGESTION: If you post the price offered you, members unwilling to give you the Fine price might comment on how your price stacks up against it.[/b]
Okay, I'll do it. It would be about $10550 after delivery, not including tax.


 Quote:
The chances are very good that this piano will cost more in six months than it does now. The chances are pretty slim that it will cost less. [/b]
Exactly what I'm afraid of! I always seem to be one step behind in this game. Maybe he'd hold it for me?? The other dealer said they could do that, but I think they had more room.
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#5198 - 09/19/07 05:35 AM Re: Tried my first Hailun today
Frank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 379
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
diinin,

Your best investment at this stage would be to make a decision after you take some members advise and read/get the Piano Book.

His pricing and comments/guidelines are there.

Right or wrong on how people interpret and debate his opinions, he has valuable information on the industry and practises in general.

There will "Always" be a deal so, enjoy the shopping and learning.

And play lots of pianos,
_________________________
Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com

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