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#785187 - 03/23/03 07:34 PM Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jason_dup2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 151
Loc: Maryland
I just wanted to put up a post supporting our troops and the mission that they have been sent on. The anti-war cup cakes have a right to their opinion but I am tired of those closed minded people that have no respect for the lives of others.
Those of us that support what is happening need to shout out our support so the majority does not get overshadowed by the loud mouthed minority.

I am glad to see the people who prostest in an orderly manner, for it is nice to see people exercise the freedoms that I would help protect and that so many before me have laid down their lives to protect. Having the freedom to protest our governmont is part of what makes us such a great county. Saddam would rather have all those that would protest him killed rather than hear them protest and has done so in the past. Saddam has killed those that he thought might protest him regardless of if they would or not.

So I just want to say go troops, keep protecting the rights of those to protest and help bring that freedom to a people in another country that they might enjoy that same right!

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#785188 - 03/23/03 08:09 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Agreed.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#785189 - 03/24/03 05:29 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
So I just want to say go troops, keep protecting the rights of those to protest and help bring that freedom to a people in another country that they might enjoy that same right! [/b]

Who wouldn't not agree with that ?

You have to remember too that in the past, the USA have too often used this rhetoric to support dictatorship of the worst kind (Pinochet in Chile being the most famous,but there was Greece of the colonel's regime and many others).
So before this beautiful idea of the USA that you project is the one that people around the world share, there will have a lot of forgetting to do.
But it will come : what happened in Bosnia and Kosovo and Afghanistan certainly were steps in the right direction.

Another thing : the USA may be victims of their great talent at making films where war and violence are fascinating and cool. It is all very nice on a Saturday night with a BigMac or popcorn and a coke, but violence is not a thing that people in most part of the world really like if they are allowed to give your opinion.

So, I am not sure the beginning of your sentence : go troops does not contain a little bit of that fascination for war that most of us feel and which is not the part of us we should be most proud with.

But if there is no fascination for war and excitement for "action" then, by all means, go troops, and free this people so that they can exchange like we do on this forum.
\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#785190 - 03/24/03 07:19 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jason_dup2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 151
Loc: Maryland
Benedict,

That is very intersting, your statements about the American fascination with violence. I will admit that our TV has more violence than most other countries and there are shows in America that other countries will not put on the air because of the violence in them.

On the other hand many other countries will show explicit sex and nudity that we will not show in the US. Not that I am trying to compare war to sex, just an interesting differnce in what is acceptable in different countries.

Honestly though Benedict, your country will not even fight when when the country is being taken over. Anyone with a water gun can take over France \:D Ok that is a bit exagerated but you guys do not have a great history of defending even your own country.

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#785191 - 03/24/03 08:06 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
That has already been gone over with Benedict, (who incidently has shown considerable "growth" lately).
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#785192 - 03/25/03 08:01 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Jason
Honestly though Benedict, your country will not even fight when when the country is being taken over. Anyone with a water gun can take over France Ok that is a bit exagerated but you guys do not have a great history of defending even your own country. [/b]

Your lack of culture is equal to your lack of respect.

Go and read a few history books instead of watching FoxNews with your mouth open.

And if you think showing a pair of tits is equal to showing murders and brutality by the shitload, then I suggest :
1░ you change instrument (the piano is a noble art)
2░ go and learn to respect people so as not to be part of the reason why your country will be less and less respected and loved even by those (like me) who have tried very hard.

Apple : thank you. Though I do not know what you mean by growth. Everybody on this forum seems to be growing all the time. That is why we contribute.

It looks like onedimensional thought is more fashionable. Either you are Coca-cola or you are Pepsi-Cola.
_________________________
Benedict

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#785193 - 03/25/03 09:35 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jason_dup2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 151
Loc: Maryland
Benedict,

You watch FoxNews too!!! \:D

 Quote:
On the other hand many other countries will show explicit sex and nudity that we will not show in the US. Not that I am trying to compare war to sex, just an interesting differnce in what is acceptable in different countries.[/b]
Pay attention now, I in no way suggested violence and tits were equal, I just pointed out an interesting fact in what is acceptable for tv in Europe and in America. I am in full agreement that television in America is way too violent.

As far as history goes, I believe that in the last hundred years we have liberated your country not once but twice from the same invading country. France pulled out of Vietnam and left America to deal with the evil dictators there. Deffinately a humiliating loss for America but at least while we were there people had the chance to live. As soon as we left the leadership killed almost two million people.

 Quote:
2░ go and learn to respect people so as not to be part of the reason why your country will be less and less respected and loved even by those (like me) who have tried very hard.[/b]
On average your people don't care what we think about you any more than on average we care what your people think of ours. But anyone who does not like a person based soley on the politics of that persons country is a fool and has the same line of thought as the people that carry out terrorist attacks. One can not like tha politics of a country but that does not necessarily have anything to do with individual people of that country. Just because Sadam is a evil dictator does not mean the Iraqi people are that way.

As far as being a reason for anything I am part of the reason that people in this country can say whatever they want to without reprise from political leaders and fear for their lives. I would proudly be part of the reason to liberate your country(again) or any other country so those might enjoy the same freedoms we enjoy both in your country and in mine.

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#785194 - 03/25/03 10:33 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
iainhp Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 803
Loc: San Diego
Hey. I'm willing to try any experiment that puts more sex and less violence on TV. \:D \:D

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#785195 - 03/25/03 10:46 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
 Quote:

Originally posted by Jason:
France pulled out of Vietnam and left America to deal with the evil dictators there. Deffinately a humiliating loss for America but at least while we were there people had the chance to live. As soon as we left the leadership killed almost two million people. [/b]

Yeah, living under the terror of the ongoing U.S. military campaign which resulted in tremendous casualties to everyone there, both American and Vietnamese.

Where's the evidence for the two million killed in Vietnam, unless you're referring to the Cambodian genocide but the heavy American bombing contributed to that because it engendered such hostility to the U.S. for its having devastated so much territory there.

Mark Mandell

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#785196 - 03/26/03 07:36 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
I believe that in the last hundred years we have liberated your country not once but twice from the same invading country[/b]

I knew about 1944 and I will always feel grateful for American and British (why do you always forget them) D-Day.

About WWI, I have never heard of a "liberation" of France by the USA.

Can you send me info on this ?

About not caring what the USA think, I am not sure.
I have watched so many US movies, so many NYPD Blue, 6 feet under, Dr Katz, NYDistrict,etc.etc.
I have read so many books by such great humanists as Tom Clancy, Dean Coonts (not sure about Christian name), Patricia Cornwell...

I read papers in Le Monde by American political thinkers (from all sides).

I just read the Human stain by Philip Roth and found it a masterpiece.
I will read the Corrections as soon as I can.

I read what all of you people say and try and integrate it without loosing what I feel I am.

And I still do not like these insults about my countrie's courage, dignity and integrity.


As much as I believe that love for the country one chooses to live in is both a right and a duty, as much I do despise the kind of macho, bonehead rage of those who think life is a NFL match.

I do wonder why there are so many right-wing authoritarian on this piano forum.

I suppose because piano is such a conservative, bourgeois way of educating children. A kind of status symbol that has as much to do with art as some of the things I read with thought.

I liked writing this. Makes me feel suddenly quite happy.
You can put it in your pipe and smoke it (as my dear British neighbours say when they are very very very angry.
_________________________
Benedict

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#785197 - 03/26/03 11:08 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
 Quote:

Orginally posted by Benedict:
I do wonder why there are so many right-wing authoritarian on this piano forum.

[/b]
I think that those espousing such right wing views are just more vocal about it as opposed to those of the moderate/liberal "persuasion"(myself included)who aren't as predisposed to this level of verbal combat. Not that we will avoid it. We just have a higher threshold till we take up arms.

Mark Mandell

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#785198 - 03/26/03 06:54 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jason_dup2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 151
Loc: Maryland
 Quote:
You can put it in your pipe and smoke it (as my dear British neighbours say when they are very very very angry[/b]
Why do they say that when they are angry? I can say it when I am happy \:D and say it with a smile \:\)

Benedict,

You are an exceptional Frenchman. As far as being an authoritarian, before this war started I had reservations about it and I still have some. The fact though is that the war is happening so the way I see it there are two choices, support it or don't. I choose at this juncture to support it because of the people who are fighting it and it does have a noble objective in ridding the Iraqi people of the tirant that has ruled them for so long.

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#785199 - 03/26/03 07:15 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Hi Benedict,

Sad that you've gotten bashed. All governements, like most people, have had their successes and follies -- the French government is no different.

I think Jason has hit on why we're so many folks are supporting this endeavor and why emotions run so high.

Some of our finest young people are in a tough place, putting their lives on the line for us in the United States. They aren't asking if it is right or wrong, they are there because their country asked them to put their lives at risk.

While we sit back here safe and sound, it seems inappropriate to criticize the whole endeavor - whether we agreed or disagreed prior to the hostilities.

Maybe after the dust clears, it will become clearer what was accomplished -- hopefully, mostly good things -- but regardless, we (citizens of the US) owe these men and women in our armed forces a debt of gratitude and respect.

The sooner the war is concluded, the better for everyone concerned.

Ken

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#785200 - 03/26/03 08:00 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:
About WWI, I have never heard of a "liberation" of France by the USA.
[/b]
Benedict,
This is popular American myth. We often forget that France lost more than 1.3 million soldiers in WW1, while the US lost about 115,000.
I for one, am fairly sure that all those French soldiers were not shot in the back - in other words, running away.
The fact is the US did play a significant role in bringing an end to WW1, but this was after the armies of Europe suffered horrible casualty rates for years. To say we liberated France is not exactly true.

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#785201 - 03/26/03 08:17 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:

Some of our finest young people are in a tough place, putting their lives on the line for us in the United States. They aren't asking if it is right or wrong, they are there because their country asked them to put their lives at risk.

While we sit back here safe and sound, it seems inappropriate to criticize the whole endeavor - whether we agreed or disagreed prior to the hostilities.

Maybe after the dust clears, it will become clearer what was accomplished -- hopefully, mostly good things -- but regardless, we (citizens of the US) owe these men and women in our armed forces a debt of gratitude and respect.

The sooner the war is concluded, the better for everyone concerned.

Ken[/b]
Well put Ken.

Regards,
Dan

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#785202 - 03/26/03 09:14 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
This is popular American myth.
Well, not quit a myth. Both the British, and the French had been trying to get America to commit its' forces for years.

When America did commit, it became the turning point of the war, for various reasons.

Is there anyone that would argue the point, that if America had been thrown in with Germans, instead of the French, that the outcome would surely have been different?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#785203 - 03/27/03 07:06 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Jason
"The fact though is that the war is happening so the way I see it there are two choices, support it or don't. I choose at this juncture to support it because of the people who are fighting it and it does have a noble objective in ridding the Iraqi people of the tirant that has ruled them for so long. "

We all agree to support the brave people who risk their lives and fight to put Saddam out of business.

But please do not insult my country. It won't make the USA a braver nation. Just a more stupid one.
\:D
_________________________
Benedict

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#785204 - 03/27/03 07:19 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Jolly

"When America did commit, it became the turning point of the war, for various reasons.

Is there anyone that would argue the point, that if America had been thrown in with Germans, instead of the French, that the outcome would surely have been different? "

I have never once in my long life heard or read that the victory against Germany was thanks to the American army. Not once.

And I do resent the fact that your country writes history like a Hollywood script.
The D-Day was an American action. The Brits ? What Brits ?

Later, Blair's involvement will be forgotten too.

If you find historical (not propaganda)information that proves that the US army was decisive then, I'll have to agreee with you.

But the fact of joining the democratic armies against the German invasion does not give any American the right to insult my country.

And then you wonder why people everywhere do not like the USA.
Who likes uneducated, arrogant, violent brats ?

OK Chirac acted in a very unfriendly (and IMO stupid) way.
OK 72 % of the French population agree with him.

Do not forget that France and USA are both part of the family of countries who value democracy and freedom.
So even if there is a disagreement, we should remain polite and courteous.

Else, I swear on the Bible, I will never eat a big Mac, see a Bruce Willis film, read an American thriller. I will even forget about my Stetson. \:D

And I am glad that the USA did not side with the Germans.
Was there any hesitation ?

\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#785205 - 03/27/03 07:59 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Getting back to the original topic, here\'s what Tiger has to say on the subject.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#785206 - 03/27/03 07:14 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jason_dup2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 151
Loc: Maryland
 Quote:
But please do not insult my country. It won't make the USA a braver nation. Just a more stupid one.[/b]
Duhh Ummm ahhhh huhhhhh what does yall ment by thart \:D

Come on Benedict, I could never do as much damage as Jerry Springer or any of those other talk shows. I am not sure they are aired in your country but I have been in other European countries that did air those morons. Sad too since that is the impression most people in that country have of us. :p

Sorry Benedict, I was not trying to insult you.

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#785207 - 03/27/03 08:21 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
[img]http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1964618[/img]
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#785208 - 03/28/03 05:32 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Jason
Sorry Benedict, I was not trying to insult you. [/b]

Apologies accepted.

I had a nightmare last night.

Bush/Rumsfeld/Wolfowicz/ had decided that cheese was a weapon of mass destruction and we were the worst danger for the security of the GodAndAllahBlessThem citizens of the UnitedStatesOfAmerica GodAndAllahBlessThem.

The three musketeers of the White House had decided they did not (no sir) need any inspections by no communist (the new word is liberal) UN experts (experts in what, who are these people fooling) because the CIA and FBI had a smoking gun.

So, the next step was reaching a sensible decision : heavy bombing and special forces + marines (plus rats specialists) OR the parking lot alternative.

The three of them were praying.

Then I woke up.

Black Friday.
The Masters of War are back.
\:D :rolleyes:
_________________________
Benedict

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#785209 - 03/28/03 08:00 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Benedict,

Don't eat so much cheese before you go to bed my friend. \:\)

It will save you from cutting it when you wake up.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#785210 - 03/28/03 08:36 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
You think it's the cheese ?
_________________________
Benedict

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#785211 - 03/28/03 10:36 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Benedict said:
 Quote:
I have never once in my long life heard or read that the victory against Germany was thanks to the American army. Not once.

And I do resent the fact that your country writes history like a Hollywood script.
The D-Day was an American action. The Brits ? What Brits ?
Try and keep your World Wars straight, Benedict. The reference I made was to WWI, which was what was being discussed at the time.

When the Americans entered WWI, it had essentially been at a standstill for quite some time.

After fighting off French efforts to place the American AEF under French officers, as replacements in French units, Black Jack Pershing initiated an offensive within the American sector, after troop strength was realized. An offensive that continued to gain ground until the end of the war.

Nobody is negating the fact that millions of United Kingdom, and Frenchmen fought bravely in the trenches of WWI. However, it is widely accepted that the American entry into WWI, was the turning point.

Was it because Germany, and its' allies were exhausted from years of battle? That could easily be argued for both sides - remember, the war was at a stalemate.

Thus my original statement, and the logic behind it. If America had sided with the Kaiser's forces, at that juncture in time, the outcome of the war would have been assured.

And not in France's favor.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#785212 - 03/28/03 11:05 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Jolly,

Thank you for making a difference in that horrible war and helping finish it with the good guys winning.

But please do not take all the merit, it is so unsubtle and unfriendly.

The heroism and courage was everywhere. And the USA would have been very ungrateful to forget Lafayette and Rochambeau.

We never brag about being the obstreticians that
allowed the USA to be born.
Why should you have to insist so heavily and hurt our pride with so many insults about the lack of courage of France and there lack of military valour. It is really hard sometimes not to feel hatred for such a nation that feels so superior especially in arrogance. Gold medal : the U-ni-ted States of A-me-ri-ca, God bless them for they are so superior to any nation or empire that ever existed.

Put yourself in my shoes five minutes and you'll feel quite hurt.
\:\) :rolleyes: \:D
_________________________
Benedict

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#785213 - 03/28/03 11:07 AM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
The stalemate resulted in part by both sides, through experience, coming to an educated understanding of what one could and could not do and survive. The Americans, being brand new to all this, did not know they were doing things that one should never do and it came as a great surprise to the Germans. More than demonstrating the superior fighting ability of the Americans it exemplified the triumph of naivete and inexperience over entrenched orthodoxy. The introduction of the new weapon called the "tank" played a part as well.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#785214 - 03/28/03 04:36 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Is this the thread where France is claiming they helped birth the US and the USA was insignificant in WWI and WWII? It is so hard to keep up with these threads any more...

The following image is from the Battle of the Bulge where the US had 81,000 casualties, nearly 20,000 dead from this one battle alone. The Ardennes...now where is that again?


"U.S. 101st Airborne Division bury their dead the day after Christmas"[/b]
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#785215 - 03/28/03 05:44 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
strong emotions seem to pervade this discussion. There is baiting and exaggeration, insults and mischaracterization to make "points."

Lovely photograph, but I never read anywhere where Benedict implied that the involvement of the US in WWI or WWII was "insignificant."

As I noted previously, most of us in the US are supporting this war, because a commitment has been made - a leap of faith, if you will, and we need to stand together. But that does not mean that others in the world can't look at the picture differently.

Much of the world now views the US as the greatest threat to world peace, much as we viewed the USSR as the great threat in the past.

Some have suggested we sound like the Serbs during their ethnic cleansing efforts -- shrill, nationalists.

While communication is never enhanced during times of stress, I think we need to try and be ambassadors for our nation -- and living down to the expectations of others ill serves our cause. It isn't easy -- but if this country is founded on ideals, it sometimes is appropriate to live up to them.

Ken

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#785216 - 03/28/03 05:54 PM Re: Go Troops!!!!!! Rahhh Rahhhh!!!!!!
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Let us not forget that wars past have little relevance to wars present. Debating the past is futile. It's over and done with and only serves to pour salt in old wounds that should have healed long ago.

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Breathy tone
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HELLO!!
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