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#441801 - 04/13/08 07:10 PM Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
Amant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/07
Posts: 310
Loc: Southwest
After BDB identified a piece as Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15 (see Van Cliburn question), I went to my sheet music. Interestingly enough the Henle 50th Year Anniversary Piano Album has it in A Major whilst the Henle Bach to Debussy Album has it in A-Flat major. Both are very nice. The A major is brighter. The A-Flat major is more soulful. I-tunes has recordings in both keys, (#A-flat>#A Major).

Does any one have any insights, history, etc. into the two-keyed versions of the same piece?

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#441802 - 04/13/08 10:31 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
Tenuto Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 550
Loc: U.S.A.
I've only seen this Waltz in the key of A-flat. He also wrote a piano four hand version that I believe is in A-flat, but I haven't seen the music.

[EDIT - sorry, I was wrong. Thanks Bruce D & currawong - you got it right].

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#441803 - 04/13/08 10:44 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17845
Loc: Victoria, BC
Brahms wrote three versions of the Op. 39 Waltzes; the original 1 piano four-hands version, an "original" piano solo version and a simplified piano solo version.

In the original piano solo version, the Waltz No 15 is in A-flat major; in the simplified version, it is in A major.

There are, of course, other differences, too, between the piano solo version and the simplified version, such as reducing passages in octaves to passages in single notes, to reducing the distance of some of the "jumps" in both right and left hands, to changing keys (No 6. for example, goes from C-sharp major (original) to C major (simplified), etc., etc.

Remember that the simplified version is Brahms' own re-writing of the set of Waltzes for pianists of more moderate ability; it is not an editor's simplifying of the solo piano work.

I don't have the four-hand version to make further comparisons.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#441804 - 04/13/08 11:25 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5903
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
I don't have the four-hand version to make further comparisons. [/b]
The four-hand version of no.15 is in A major (and no.6 is C# major). In terms of difficulty, it's probably the easiest of them all - secondo has the oompahs, and primo has the 6ths divided between the hands.
I have the all of these in two Dover volumes (Complete Piano Works for Four Hands, and Complete Shorter Works for Solo Piano).
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#441805 - 04/13/08 11:43 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21299
Loc: Oakland
I have a lovely recording by Harold Bauer, who played #15, #16, and then repeated #15. That is a nice way to play it.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#441806 - 04/14/08 01:12 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
pianoanne Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Pacific NW
Coincidentally I just played this Waltz (in Ab) for the Prelude at my church job this morning. It certainly isn't easy, has some big stretches and the 6ths at the end are a little tricky.

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#441807 - 04/14/08 07:38 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
Amant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/07
Posts: 310
Loc: Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
...
In the original piano solo version, the Waltz No 15 is in A-flat major; in the simplified version, it is in A major...
[/b]
I'll agree with you there, Bruce, the A Major is easier to play on the first go round than the A-Flat.
Thanks to all for their insights.

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#441808 - 04/14/08 08:10 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
Loc: New York City
Her's an incredible performanc by Kissin. For me this performance shows how the greatest pianists can do things with "simple" music that few of us can achieve.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oy6uV-eMOEs

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#441809 - 04/15/08 09:57 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks for the chance to revisit the Brahms waltz 39-15 and include the Evgeny Kissin rendition on youtube.

I had always battled with the clatter of triplet chords from m30 on ...

The explanation of BruceD of a Brahms simplified version (many thanks) would tend to indicate that the Sheet Music Archives version could be a 4-hands hangover ... the single-note outline of triplets (as played by Kissin) produces a gentle close to this gem.

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#441810 - 04/15/08 11:34 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Thanks for the chance to revisit the Brahms waltz 39-15 and include the Evgeny Kissin rendition on youtube.

I had always battled with the clatter of triplet chords from m30 on ...

the single-note outline of triplets (as played by Kissin) produces a gentle close to this gem. [/b]
What do you mean by single note outlines? I think he plays it as written but just voices the top note louder in the triplets.

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#441811 - 04/15/08 11:46 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Who says?

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#441812 - 04/15/08 12:00 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1752
The Henle edition that I use has the waltz in A major, and it is exactly the same as the A-flat version, with the obvious exception of the key. My piano teacher was extremely surprised to encounter it. Since it's the Henle version, it is probably original. I tried to learn it both ways, but it is surprisingly difficult to switch keys.

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#441813 - 04/15/08 03:02 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Who says? [/b]
Did you watch the video and do you have the score? Where didn't you think he followed it??

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#441814 - 04/16/08 02:41 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
The curling of the RH last three fingers in the execution of the end of the triplet passage
would suggest that the notes are individually played (chords tend to call for a more rigid strike with straighter fingers) ... the video angle doesn't allow a view of what the distant
thumb "might" be striking to support your previous judgment.

It was the Kissin rolling of the bass chord in m28 (differing from my score) which raised the possibility of my copy being a hangover from the 4-hand version.

Thank you for your interest ... it would be helpful to know where to find the authentic
simplified version of the waltz.

web page

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#441815 - 04/16/08 07:01 AM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
The curling of the RH last three fingers in the execution of the end of the triplet passage
would suggest that the notes are individually played (chords tend to call for a more rigid strike with straighter fingers) ... the video angle doesn't allow a view of what the distant
thumb "might" be striking to support your previous judgment.
web page [/b]
I do not see any curling of the fingers in the RH in the triplet passages. Also, I think one can clearly hear that he is not playing single notes in these passages. It would sound much thinner(and not very good!)if one only played the top voice.

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#441816 - 04/16/08 03:29 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17845
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
The curling of the RH last three fingers in the execution of the end of the triplet passage
would suggest that the notes are individually played (chords tend to call for a more rigid strike with straighter fingers) ... the video angle doesn't allow a view of what the distant
thumb "might" be striking to support your previous judgment.
web page [/b]
I do not see any curling of the fingers in the RH in the triplet passages. Also, I think one can clearly hear that he is not playing single notes in these passages. It would sound much thinner(and not very good!)if one only played the top voice. [/b]
One has only to listen carefully to hear that Kissin is playing the (sixths) chords in the last few measures.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#441817 - 04/18/08 06:20 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
KeysOnTheCeiling Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/08
Posts: 244
You'll have to excuse me for this being offtopic.

But you must know how excited I got when I saw the title name. For many times I have seen famous songs in PW thread names, but for once, I am playing a song in a title name \:D
I just had to say.
_________________________
"Derrrr dat wuz gud"

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#441818 - 04/18/08 10:55 PM Re: Brahms' waltz op 39, no.15. ????
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
 Quote:
Originally posted by KeysOnTheCeiling:
You'll have to excuse me for this being offtopic.

But you must know how excited I got when I saw the title name. For many times I have seen famous songs in PW thread names, but for once, I am playing a song in a title name \:D
I just had to say. [/b]
What are you talking about? There's no song mentioned anywhere, only a waltz by Brahms.

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