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#546416 - 02/25/09 02:09 PM Schumann Traumerei
DaveInMichigan Offline
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Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 307
Loc: SE Michigan
Hi, I am playing this one. It looks very easy, and I just want to learn it since I am restarting and need to add some pieces that I can play easily.

I have a few questions, however. First is about the speed. What does this symbol mean, and why does it have 2 numbers?

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#546417 - 02/25/09 02:11 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
DaveInMichigan Offline
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Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 307
Loc: SE Michigan
Another question is, how can I play the circled notes? There is no fingering suggestion. Do I play the lower 2 notes with my thumb?



Same question for this similar thing near the end.



Thanks in advance!
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#546418 - 02/25/09 02:31 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I have no clue why there is a "72" in that tempo marking (editor suggestion?). Mine has quarter note = 100 only. That just means that the suggested tempo is 100 bpm, quarter note getting one beat.

As to those big figurations you point out, yes you do play the two lowest notes with your thumb. ;\)

And finally, while Träumerei may not seem all that difficult technically, be prepared to face some tough interpretive difficulties. It can be a bear to play consistently well; you have to stay focused.
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#546419 - 02/25/09 02:37 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
allegro_concerto Offline
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Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 181
In the first example, I suppose you could also use your left hand to play G, if you cannot reach more than an octave.

In the second case, probably have to do a "sweep" from your left hand and you can decide how you like to distribute the notes between your hands.

Playing these notes with the thumb is probably the usual approach.

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#546420 - 02/25/09 02:41 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
William Clark Offline
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Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 93
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:

And finally, while Träumerei may not seem all that difficult technically, be prepared to face some tough interpretive difficulties. It can be a bear to play consistently well; you have to stay focused. [/b]
Very true. A big +1 from me.
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#546421 - 02/25/09 02:52 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
Genaa Offline
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Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 326
Loc: Winchester, UK
I love this piece but as others have already said whilst it appears easy (it was listed as a grade 7 piece for ABRSM last season I believe) it is certainly hard to play well and with feeling. Well worth the effort however as it is just beautiful
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#546422 - 02/25/09 03:00 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
rocket88 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
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Its one of my favorite piano pieces...worth whatever effort needed to learn and play it!
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#546423 - 02/25/09 08:19 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
akonow Offline
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Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 589
Loc: Los Angeles
 Quote:
Originally posted by DaveInMichigan:
What does this symbol mean, and why does it have 2 numbers?
[/b]
My guess is that the one in parentheses is Clara's tempo marking. Anywhere in between those two tempi is probably fine though. It's not set in stone. \:\)
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Chopin - Polonaises Op 26
Schumann - Fantasiestücke Op 12

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#546424 - 02/25/09 08:41 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
sotto voce Offline
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Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Dave,

I agree with everyone who has pointed out the technical challenge here is belied by serious musical and interpretive difficulty. But don't let that deter you! It's an exquisite piece, and playing it well is a worthy goal.

As to fingering, your question about the large chords has already been answered correctly. It's worth mentioning that careful and conscious thought should be given to fingering overall; there's a plethora of held or tied notes, and every effort should be made to play them as written rather than relying on pedal.

I haven't seen the particular edition you're using, but the M.M. indication certainly indicates that there's latitude in the tempo one chooses and perhaps is meant to acknowledge a significant disagreement among editors. There are discrepancies in the verbal indication as well as the metronome marking:

Lento, con gran espressione (♩ = 56) (ed. Vogrich)
Adagio espressivo (♩ = 56) (ed. Bauer)
Andante (♩ = 66) (ed. Frey)
Moderato (♩ = 100) (ed. unspecified)
Tranquillo (♩ = 100) (ed. Godowsky)

In this old publication by Breitkopf & Härtel, someone has taken the liberty of adding a flag by hand to the original M.M. marking so that ♩ = 100 now reads ♪ = 100 instead!

http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/f/fe/IMSLP03060-Schumann-Op015Brt6016.pdf

The Clara Schumann edition at IMSLP has neither verbal tempo indication nor M.M. marking:

http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/2/28/IMSLP00720-Schumann_-_Kinderscenen__Op_15.pdf

BTW, I'd like to repeat a question I asked once before: Has anyone else ever heard of pairing this piece with the Kleine Romanze from Album for the Young (Op. 68 No. 19)? I have three editions that do so (treating the Romanze as a trio or "B" section followed by a reprise of Träumerei), but I've never found corroboration that it was ever a popular performance practice in recitals.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#546425 - 02/25/09 10:02 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
newport Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 492
 Quote:
Originally posted by William Clark:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:

And finally, while Träumerei may not seem all that difficult technically, be prepared to face some tough interpretive difficulties. It can be a bear to play consistently well; you have to stay focused. [/b]
Very true. A big +1 from me. [/b]
+2

(I don't care if I am wrong.)
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#546426 - 02/25/09 11:13 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei
DaveInMichigan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 307
Loc: SE Michigan
Thank you for all your responses!
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#546427 - 02/26/09 02:48 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Dave puts an intriguing finger on Traumerei interpretations.

To put the 15-7 into broader context I’ve taken the liberty of adding the IMSLP copy.

rstraumerei from IMSLP

Dave’s circles:

1. The mm tempo (Andante 100) ... IMHO not too quick ... but dreamily.

2. Measure 6 : You will notice a bracketing of the RH bottom two notes (G &A) which would suggest both being playing with the thumb ... an
octave + stretch (tough on small hands ) ... but full of spice.

3. Measure 30 (including the m1-8 repeat) : Same "thumb" bracket, but in this case the spread of notes far exceeds the widest of hand spreads (F-A and G-B) ... and therefore needs to be arpeggiated in both hands ... quite tricky to avoid sounding laboured ... but the ritardando marking should give the clue of a little more time to ensure good closing flow.

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#546428 - 02/26/09 08:38 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
3. Measure 30 (including the m1-8 repeat) : Same "thumb" bracket, but in this case the spread of notes far exceeds the widest of hand spreads (F-A and G-B) ... and therefore needs to be arpeggiated in both hands ... quite tricky to avoid sounding laboured ... but the ritardando marking should give the clue of a little more time to ensure good closing flow. [/b]
Regarding that chord with the fermata in the third measure from the end, I believe that a span of a tenth on white keys is reachable by most pianists. For the majority capable of playing it as written, the chord need not be—and should not be—arpeggiated.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1153946 - 02/27/09 02:13 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: sotto voce]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
b3. Measure 30 (including the m1-8 repeat) : Same "thumb" bracket, but in this case the spread of notes far exceeds the widest of hand spreads (F-A and G-B) ... and therefore needs to be arpeggiated in both hands ... quite tricky to avoid sounding laboured ... but the ritardando marking should give the clue of a little more time to ensure good closing flow. [/b]
Regarding that chord with the fermata in the third measure from the end, I believe that a span of a tenth on white keys is reachable by most pianists. For the majority capable of playing it as written, the chord need not be—and should not be—arpeggiated.

Steven


It is even easier since you don't actually have to reach a full tenth; you are using your thumb on two keys, so that effectively reduces the width of the stretch. smile
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#1154066 - 02/27/09 04:41 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: sotto voce]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Regarding that chord with the fermata in the third measure from the end, I believe that a span of a tenth on white keys is reachable by most pianists. For the majority capable of playing it as written, the chord need not beand should not bearpeggiated.
At the time I wrote this, I didn't notice that many editions do indicate arpeggiation here. (I guess editors are no more consistent about this than about the "correct" tempo!)

Still, I much prefer that the chord not be arpeggiated. IMHO it's rendered perfectly by a delicately pointed accent and slightly prolonged duration without extra embellishment.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1159188 - 03/07/09 07:17 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: sotto voce]
DaveInMichigan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 307
Loc: SE Michigan
As simple as this one, I don't know how to finger it (the circled notes).



I believe I am supposed to hold the two C's because there is no pedal indicated. Going from B-flat to G, if I tried the simple 2-3-4 fingering, I cannot stretch my hand like that.

Should I slide finger 2 from B-flat to A? Then that is more doable.

Or can I use pedal? Then I don't have to hold the two C's.

My final question is more general: do we basically have the liberty of doing it/things anyway we want just to make it sound right?
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#1159194 - 03/07/09 07:25 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: DaveInMichigan]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I believe I hold the C's with 1-5 and use 2-3-4 for the Bb, A, and G respectively. Let me go play it and see...[edit] I slide 2 from the Bb to the A. Go for it!

If you cannot reach that, you'll need to use the pedal skillfully. Sliding might does work, too. Experiment some and see what fits your hand best.

And yes, in some ways, I believe the ends justify the means. After all, if you cannot reach a particular chord, the usual practice is to invert it. Just try to preserve the original sound as much as possible. smile


Edited by Horowitzian (03/07/09 07:33 PM)
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#1163701 - 03/16/09 05:16 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: newport]
DaveInMichigan Offline
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Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 307
Loc: SE Michigan
Hi, I have a couple of new questions regard grace notes:

1. I read that grace notes are to be played on the beat. So for the notes shown (A), is it correct that the low B-flat should be played on the 3rd beat (rather than the F and D)? There are 3 places like this.


2. On the section below (B), the grace note is put [before] the bar, should I still play the grace note on the first beat of the next measure?


TIA!
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#1163721 - 03/16/09 05:52 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: DaveInMichigan]
Jan-Erik Offline
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Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
I am just working on pieces from 'Kinderszenen' and 'Waldszenen' so I am familiar with some of the awkward Schumann finger acrobatics.

The first discussed chord in 'Träumerei' I would absolutely take as written, using thumb and second in RH, while holding the melody F with 5th. It is essential to keep the LH chord sounding, even if you would shift the pedal a little earlier

In the next to last bar: On the second beat in left hand I use 5-2-1 and slide with 2nd finger from B-flat to A, then using 3rd for the G. No problem at all! You can then connect the chord on the third beat really legato while you keep the thumb on C.

I find the 'Träumerei' very easy to play, not only because of the slow tempo allowing occasional finger shift on one note. I have not seen any need for redistribution in this piece.

I have, however, found it necessary - for the sake of comfort or becasue of the vivid tempo - to redistribute notes in: 'Haschemann', 'Jäger auf der Lauer', 'Vogel als Prophet', 'Abschied'.

But that is a different story. If anybody meets with problems, may be I can help.

"Le tout c'est de savoir bien doigter" (Chopin)


Edited by Jan-Erik (03/16/09 05:55 PM)

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#1163765 - 03/16/09 07:56 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: Jan-Erik]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
This piece is really elegant and beautiful. I went over and tried it after reading the thread. very moving. My little edition is in a classical collection that has also Traumerei "Secondo" and "Primo" little pieces too. What is the story there?
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#1163901 - 03/17/09 12:59 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: DaveInMichigan]
BruceD Online   content
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17837
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: DaveInMichigan
Hi, I have a couple of new questions regard grace notes:

1. I read that grace notes are to be played on the beat. So for the notes shown (A), is it correct that the low B-flat should be played on the 3rd beat (rather than the F and D)? There are 3 places like this.



That grace notes are played on the beat is a more strict "rule" in Baroque and Classical than in Romantic, although there are many instances where, in Romantic music as well, grace notes are played on the beat. To me, there is a little more leeway with this "rule" in Romantic and later music than there is in Classical and Baroque. In this example, however, I think it important that the top line (melody line) be kept in tempo; I would therefore play the LH grace notes before the beat.
Originally Posted By: DaveInMichigan

2. On the section below (B), the grace note is put [before] the bar, should I still play the grace note on the first beat of the next measure?


TIA!


It's not as common to have the grace notes placed as this one is, before the bar line. That suggests to me that, once again, the F in the next measure must be on the beat and that the grace note, therefore, is played before the beat. While it is written as a grace note, I believe that it should echo, in tempo, the eighth-note "pick-up" in previous measures, so I play it as an eighth-note "grace" note, not as a quick grace note.

These are my interpretive judgements; you may not agree with them.

Regards,
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#1163903 - 03/17/09 01:18 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: BruceD]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Dave,

You are on a bum steer to say that grace notes are played BEFORE the beat. Here’s a diagram which shows the relative relationship of the various grace notes to the beat ... it is only the Acciaccatura which is
"theoretically timeless; it is just squeezed in as quickly as possible before the principal note is heard. The principal note retains it’s accent and practically all it’s time value".

All the others, fall within the beat ... however briefly as in the case of the "biting" Mordent ... you should also be clear about the broken chord.

Your "A" is a broken chord ending with the top note on the beat, while "B" is just before the beat.


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#1163906 - 03/17/09 01:31 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: btb]
sotto voce Offline
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Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
btb, your source appears to have the symbols for upper and lower mordent reversed.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The upper mordent is indicated by a short squiggle; the lower mordent is the same with a short vertical line through it."

From Dolmetsch:
Quote:
In music written before the nineteenth century, the mordent (written as a shake sign crossed by a vertical line) is a sequence of three notes (the written note, the note below and returning to the written note). This is sometimes called a 'lower' mordent to distinguish it from the nineteenth-century ornament (written as a shake sign) called the 'upper' mordent or Schneller, also a sequence of three notes (the written note, the note above and back to the written note)...."

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1163908 - 03/17/09 02:00 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: sotto voce]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks sv ... must have the diagramme corrected ... note folks that the upper and lower mordents should be reversed ... the lower mordent has the line through the squiggle.


Edited by btb (03/17/09 02:01 AM)

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#1163916 - 03/17/09 02:44 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: btb]
keyboardklutz Offline
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In the 18th century the 'M' sign is a trill (i.e. starts on the upper note). It only becomes an 'upper' mordent when there's a need to avoid parallel/open fifths/octaves. I'm not sure it was used in the 19th.
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#1163917 - 03/17/09 02:45 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: daviel]
Jan-Erik Offline
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Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
As this is romantic music, you may have a great degree of freedom. As long as it sounds good, it is OK? It is important that the pulse of the melody is not broken in a disturbing way.

But I think you should not hasten with these notes.
If you feel completely lost, you can always listen to famous pianists's way


Edited by Jan-Erik (03/17/09 03:39 AM)

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#1163981 - 03/17/09 09:46 AM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: keyboardklutz]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
In the 18th century the 'M' sign is a trill (i.e. starts on the upper note). It only becomes an 'upper' mordent when there's a need to avoid parallel/open fifths/octaves. I'm not sure it was used in the 19th.

There are many examples in Chopin's music alone in which the shake sign is for a Schneller, an "upper mordent" beginning on the main note (viz. Polonaise Op. 3, Sonata Op. 4, Impromptu Op. 29, Ballade Op. 47 et al.).

While he also used Tr. for the same purpose (as well as for trills of longer duration), I doubt Chopin was unique in employing the "upper mordent" sign for a Schneller in the nineteenth century.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1164071 - 03/17/09 12:58 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: daviel]
rrb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 212
Loc: Bend, USA
Originally Posted By: daviel
This piece is really elegant and beautiful. I went over and tried it after reading the thread. very moving. My little edition is in a classical collection that has also Traumerei "Secondo" and "Primo" little pieces too. What is the story there?


Assuming this is a serious question, the problem seems to be a confusion between Schumann's 'Album fuer die Jugend', and the cycle of miniatures 'Kinderszenen', of which Traumerei is the 7th of 13.

The 'Album' is a set of relatively easy pieces that Schumann wrote specifically for young pianists to play. 'Kinderszenen' is 'Reflections on Childhood' and was written in the same year as another Schumann masterpiece, 'Kreisleriana', also a cycle of miniatures (and which no-one in his right mind would expect anyone but a mature artist to attempt).

Schumann's 'miniature cycles' are not just 'arbitrary collections of short pieces'. The cycle itself is 'the piece' and I think it's a great shame if people pluck bits out of them and try to sell them for what they are not.
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#1164090 - 03/17/09 01:28 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: btb]
BruceD Online   content
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17837
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: btb


You are on a bum steer to say that grace notes are played BEFORE the beat. Here’s a diagram which shows the relative relationship of the various grace notes to the beat


I believe that the chart you provided is more applicable to music of the Classic and Baroque periods that to Romantic and later.

If it's good enough for Horowitz to play the grace notes before the beat, then it's certainly good enough for me. I'll take the word of my teacher, as well, who agrees that, in many instances in Romantic music, the grace notes may be played before the beat. I think that "Traumerei" is a case where this makes more artistic sense than the strict observation of the "rule".

Surely in the last example given (the C grace note before the bar line) it would make no sense to play it on the beat of the next measure as a "quick" grace note, as the C is really part of the melody line.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190

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#1164108 - 03/17/09 02:20 PM Re: Schumann Traumerei [Re: rrb]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: rrb
Originally Posted By: daviel
This piece is really elegant and beautiful. I went over and tried it after reading the thread. very moving. My little edition is in a classical collection that has also Traumerei "Secondo" and "Primo" little pieces too. What is the story there?


Assuming this is a serious question, the problem seems to be a confusion between Schumann's 'Album fuer die Jugend', and the cycle of miniatures 'Kinderszenen', of which Traumerei is the 7th of 13.

The 'Album' is a set of relatively easy pieces that Schumann wrote specifically for young pianists to play. 'Kinderszenen' is 'Reflections on Childhood' and was written in the same year as another Schumann masterpiece, 'Kreisleriana', also a cycle of miniatures (and which no-one in his right mind would expect anyone but a mature artist to attempt).

Schumann's 'miniature cycles' are not just 'arbitrary collections of short pieces'. The cycle itself is 'the piece' and I think it's a great shame if people pluck bits out of them and try to sell them for what they are not.

rrb,

I'm curious as to why you suspect confusion between Scenes From Childhood and Album for the Young.

I was puzzled by daviel's query, too, as there's no way of predicting the contents of a classical anthology without seeing it. But doesn't the reference to Primo and Secondo suggest an arrangement of Träumerei for four hands? It seems odd that a collection would include both solo pieces and duets, but do those terms have any other possible meaning in piano music?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Using Kawai MP6 faders/knobs with virtual instruments?
by chicolom
07/30/14 02:35 AM
Coming up with new compositional methods.
by gsmonks
07/30/14 01:58 AM
Impromptu in A
by Ritzycat
07/30/14 12:42 AM
what do you think piano teachers about it?
by Maximillyan
07/30/14 12:15 AM
picking a fight: how many movements in op.110?
by beet31425
07/29/14 11:36 PM
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