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#357737 - 02/26/09 08:43 AM I play tennis one day a week...
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
I play tennis every saturday morning... Is this a problem? Does this can disturb my playing?
_________________________
Roland FP7F

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#357738 - 02/26/09 08:53 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week...
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
Depends on how you play \:D . If you're careful, I don't see it as an issue. Don't strain your arms, and don't injure them in some other way ;\) .
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

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#357739 - 02/26/09 09:03 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week...
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
When I was younger (12-16yo) I used to play a lot more (like 4h everyday)... Now (I'm 21) I just play for fun....
_________________________
Roland FP7F

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#1153983 - 02/27/09 02:53 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: fe2008]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
The most common problem is "tennis elbow", although it's relatively rare and I think caused by faulty strokes or over use. This shouldn't be a problem with once a week playing. If anything starts to hurt just stop playing. Unless very severe, tennis elbow usually goes away with rest.

And I don't recommend jumping the net at the end the match.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/27/09 03:48 PM)

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#1154292 - 02/27/09 11:33 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: pianoloverus]
Sammae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 47
Loc: Ottawa, ON
When I was a teenager, I practiced advanced pieces and technique every day for a few hours while taking lessons for my Gr. 9 RCM. That was the first summer where I was seriously practicing piano (I used to take "vacation" from lessons during school vacation), and when I started playing tennis for the summer, I developed tendonitis in my wrists. The chiropractor suggested it was because of the added strain. I had to take a hiatus from both for months, and it was not cool. So just be careful. If you start to notice any new pains, go see someone about it before it gets serious. I know that many people, I'm sure, can play tennis and piano, but I just happened to be a case that resulted in an injury. Just a heads-up! (Piano beats tennis anyday...)
_________________________
Re-learning (polishing):
Chopin - Prelude in D-flat major Op. 28 No 15

Working on:
Chopin - Waltz in C-sharp minor Op. 64 No. 2
Deubussy - Suite bergamasque - Clair de lune

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#1154373 - 02/28/09 02:55 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: Fleeting Visions]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: Fleeting Visions
Depends on how you play laugh . If you're careful, I don't see it as an issue. Don't strain your arms, and don't injure them in some other way wink .


The main problem isn't strain related. Not muscular in nature, but neurological. Inflammation of the nerves, due to maybe something as simple as reaching out a little too far on an aggressive backhand, can cause a nerve entrapment that will not be noticeable as anything more than a little finger stiffness sometimes weeks later, which can easily get progressively worse and even become a chronic problem that will shut you right down at the keyboard, or any other activity, like typing, where fine manual/digital work is used.
Hand and elbow entrapments can shut you right down at the keyboard, and they can emanate from the brachial plexus (shoulder blade area, front and back), the shoulder, the elbow, or the wrists! The effect is the same with nerve entrapment as the nerves to the fingers/hands can become entrapped anywhere from the spine on down! Tennis opens the door for this type of injury because of the power exerted on the racket and the sometime overreaching/overstretching from an awkward, kinetically disadvantageous position.
Tennis, martial arts, and direct forearm workouts (for bodybuilders and casual exercise buffs, like wrist rollers, leverage bar holds, and devices like hand grippers and various finger exercise bands to develop grip) should all be avoided.
If you use heavy weights for pulling exercises, like rows, pulldowns, deadlifts, etc., always use straps to aid your hold on the bar and lessen the amount of force needed to grip the bar.
When pushing, as in bench presses, don't crank the wrists back or use a "false" thumbless grip. Put the steel in the middle of your hand, keep your wrists in a perfectly straight line with your forearm, and don't overgrip the bar more than just to hold it in place in the center of your hand, then punch the weight up. Cranking the hands backwards can damage the writs for piano work, and it's not the type of damage or pain/inflammation that would bother you just doing eveyday things with your hands. But something that you'd readily notice when trying to play in a relaxed manner ith any type of facility!
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


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#1154537 - 02/28/09 10:58 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
terminaldegree Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2676
Loc: western Wisconsin
At once per week, I doubt the effects of an occasional game of tennis would be terribly harmful, so long as you're not practicing 5 hours a day or something...

Years ago I switched over to racquetball and found it to be a little easier on my body overall than tennis.
_________________________
Pianist, teacher, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Casio px-200, Bechstein A190 #192939 @ home
Steinway A #585209, B #416809 @ work
Schimmel 130T #339100, on loan

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#1154754 - 02/28/09 03:57 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: terminaldegree]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: terminaldegree
At once per week, I doubt the effects of an occasional game of tennis would be terribly harmful, so long as you're not practicing 5 hours a day or something...

Years ago I switched over to racquetball and found it to be a little easier on my body overall than tennis.


Depends on how you play that game once a week. If you're lobbing serves and your general play is half speed, it's posible you'll be OK, but let's face facts, the average physical conditioning of most pianists is below average, not above average.
Most musicians that I know are rather sedentary individuals, whether young , middle-aged, or old. For the individual without a rugged athletic prowess, tennis can put alot of stress on their physiology.
Whether once a week or not, if the body cannot fully adapt to the increased or constant physical demand put on it, systems start to fail.
Even in a relaxed weekly 30 minute game, one can get over-enthusiastic and rip into the ball with their maximum force. Under ideal circumstances, the joints not stretched or hyper-extended to their maximum, applying maximum force is not as dangerous to connective tissues and doing so in an awkward position, which is not conducive to applying the maximum force being made.
For instance, the body moving in one direction and stretching with the arm in an opposite direction as the movement of the body, thereby negating the asisting muscles that normally aid in the smooth production of a swing. With that type of effort, the tissues undergo extremely abnormal stress with high injury potential.
With tennis, not standing in a fixed position to execute a swing is the potentially detrimental factor.
Think about it. A bowler that had to be moving backwards, at a slight angle, while delivering the ball forward, might not be able to generate enough power for his ball to reach the pins! The body's momentum delivers the power as well as the swing. In this scenario, the bowler would have to impart more power from the arm, which done while moving backwards from an awkward position, could set the bowler up for injury.
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


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#1154788 - 02/28/09 05:10 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
BJones:
I taught tennis for 20 years and often to unathletic adults. I can't remember any of them getting injured. I also coached a high school tennis team and don't remember any injuries there either. In my experience tennis injuries are relatively rare.

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#1154819 - 02/28/09 06:15 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: pianoloverus]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
BJones:
I taught tennis for 20 years and often to unathletic adults. I can't remember any of them getting injured. I also coached a high school tennis team and don't remember any injuries there either. In my experience tennis injuries are relatively rare.


Tennis injuries are rare, among tennis players. Matter of fact, I have no idea why medical professionals refer to "tennis elbow", as injuries are so rare that it couldn't possibly happen, let alone there be a layman's name for the malady that really doesn't exist, as you say.
Did you take a poll as to how many of your tennis tudents were pianists? If so, and they were all pianists who had no ill effects whatsoever with tennis compromising their keyboard dexterity, than I stand corrected and recommend a robust daily regime of tennis as a beneficially piano-safe form of exercise that will surely enhance piano technique.

Further, I highly recommend all exercise that torque the joints. The more ballistic, the better. All forms of full power martial arts blows, including board, ice, and tile breaking with knuckles, palm, and ridge hand, knuckle pushups with box freefalls from a foot or more, fingertip free fall pushups, rapid deadpull ballistic jerks on immovably weighted Olympic bars, all forms of wrist curls from each plane of motion, the more intense the joint trauma imparted, the better. laugh



Edited by BJones (02/28/09 06:26 PM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1154853 - 02/28/09 07:19 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
I'm a tennis player. Was playing and training close to 20 hours during the summer. I suffered a stress fracture in my back and now im still trying to fight it off. No more kick serve for me!

Matt

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#1154881 - 02/28/09 08:14 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: LiszThalberg]
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1507
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
I played competitive tennis for twenty years and used to be on the court for hours on end. A certain inflexibility used to creep into the dominant hand, constantly used to grip the racquet. However, it soon went away afterwards and I have suffered no loss of piano technique. I therefore agree with pianoloverus, but additionally, I want to enjoy many things in life and feeling fit and healthy is one of them. Piano playing is a supremely enjoyable activity, but beyond obvious common sense I am not going to constantly worry about how other things might affect it.
_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

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#1154945 - 02/28/09 10:13 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: Ted]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: Ted
I played competitive tennis for twenty years and used to be on the court for hours on end. A certain inflexibility used to creep into the dominant hand, constantly used to grip the racquet. However, it soon went away afterwards and I have suffered no loss of piano technique. I therefore agree with pianoloverus, but additionally, I want to enjoy many things in life and feeling fit and healthy is one of them. Piano playing is a supremely enjoyable activity, but beyond obvious common sense I am not going to constantly worry about how other things might affect it.



I agree with him too. I now recommend a heavy course of rigorous manual labor, like stone masonry, jackhammering, etc., maybe even highly repetitive manual assembly line work, coupled with intense hand impact athletics, like handball, boxing, martial arts, etc. as being conducive to building world-class piano technique, the more intense the stress and trauma to the hands, the better! cool
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1154946 - 02/28/09 10:14 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: LiszThalberg]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: Debussy20
I'm a tennis player. Was playing and training close to 20 hours during the summer. I suffered a stress fracture in my back and now im still trying to fight it off. No more kick serve for me!

Matt


That's impossible. Couldn't have been from tennis. According to someone who has been teaching tennis for 20 years, injuries are not possible.
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1154955 - 02/28/09 10:44 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: pianoloverus]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
BJones:
I taught tennis for 20 years and often to unathletic adults. I can't remember any of them getting injured. I also coached a high school tennis team and don't remember any injuries there either. In my experience tennis injuries are relatively rare.


There's 16 million hits on google for "tennis related injuries":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tennis+related+injuries&aq=0&oq=tennis+related

That's alot of unnecessary articles written for something that can't happen and doesn't exist, don't you agree? whistle
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1154971 - 02/28/09 11:18 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5932
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: BJones
There's 16 million hits on google for "tennis related injuries"... That's alot of unnecessary articles written for something that can't happen and doesn't exist, don't you agree? whistle

Pianoloverus said "In my experience tennis injuries are relatively rare". He didn't say injury from tennis "can't happen and doesn't exist".
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1154992 - 03/01/09 12:28 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: currawong]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: BJones
There's 16 million hits on google for "tennis related injuries"... That's alot of unnecessary articles written for something that can't happen and doesn't exist, don't you agree? whistle

Pianoloverus said "In my experience tennis injuries are relatively rare". He didn't say injury from tennis "can't happen and doesn't exist".


What he actually said was that in 20 years as a professional tennis instructor, he's never had a student that incurred an injury and has never heard of anyone being injured as a result of tennis. What I asked was how many of his completely injury free students over that 20 year period were concert-level pianists. In making a wise choice, he never answered that question.

It's really a moot point. I'm now an advocate of high impact, high intensity hand, wrist, elbow, and shoulder activity for pianists who wish to improve their technique, and agree with him. It makes perfect sense. crazy

I know a competitive Thai boxer whose fingers and hands are so misshapen from countless strikes, and doing free-fall, ballistic, depth knuckle pushups off of boxes to the floor, than back up to the boxes, that he can't even shuffle a deck of cards. I haven't seen him try to play the piano, but I'll bet he's a technical wizard! wink


Edited by BJones (03/01/09 12:37 AM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1154998 - 03/01/09 12:46 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5932
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: BJones
What he actually said was that in 20 years as a professional tennis instructor, he's never had a student that incurred an injury and has never heard of anyone being injured as a result of tennis.

No, what he actually said was "I taught tennis for 20 years and often to unathletic adults. I can't remember any of them getting injured. I also coached a high school tennis team and don't remember any injuries there either. In my experience tennis injuries are relatively rare." (italics mine in both of these quotes)

Look, I don't have any experience here, and no axe to grind. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, and I'm not advocating either playing tennis or not playing it. I gave up playing softball as a teenager because I was scared of finger injuries. I just don't like putting words into other's mouths, and I can't see that pianoloverus was denying injuries happen. Maybe he does think that, for all I know. But he wasn't actually saying it in this thread, which is all I have to go on.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1155015 - 03/01/09 02:03 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: currawong]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Might I respectfully suggest that there is more likelihood of
being run over by a herd of wildebeest than playing tennis.

Liberace might have taken out insurance on his hands ... but then, he had to entertain on a diamond-encrusted piano ... and good advertisement ... the rest of us ... continue to use our precious hands to do what we have to do ... quite untroubled by thoughts of high-flown protection.

My life-innings included bone-crunching rugby tackles, sloshing a cricket ball for 6, whamming a golf ball out of sight, scrambling up Table Mountain, winning a few tie-breakers at tennis, zapping a table tennis backhand smash, diving off the top board (only brave enough to 3m ... the 5m had my legs rattling) ... but always, so blessed in sharing a moment of sports action, to have unawares established a wiry physique and good heart ... to have kept me bright and bushy-tailed past seventy ... and I can still play most of the Chopin masterworks.

But chaps ... do watch out for that herd of wildebeest!!

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#1155085 - 03/01/09 08:26 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
BJones:
I taught tennis for 20 years and often to unathletic adults. I can't remember any of them getting injured. I also coached a high school tennis team and don't remember any injuries there either. In my experience tennis injuries are relatively rare.


Tennis injuries are rare, among tennis players. Matter of fact, I have no idea why medical professionals refer to "tennis elbow", as injuries are so rare that it couldn't possibly happen, let alone there be a layman's name for the malady that really doesn't exist, as you say.
Did you take a poll as to how many of your tennis tudents were pianists? If so, and they were all pianists who had no ill effects whatsoever with tennis compromising their keyboard dexterity, than I stand corrected and recommend a robust daily regime of tennis as a beneficially piano-safe form of exercise that will surely enhance piano technique.


Yes, tennis injuries are rare in my rather extensive experience, but as I said in my first post they do occur and tennis elbow is the most common. I never said tennis elbow doesn't exist. In fact, I first brought it up.

Why would it possibly be relevant to find out how many of my tennis pupils were pianists? My point was simply that few tennis players get injured.

Finally, just because few get injured doesn't imply tennis should be used to develop piano technique. Thus your last statment is not logical.

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#1155271 - 03/01/09 02:06 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: pianoloverus]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Why would it possibly be relevant to find out how many of my tennis pupils were pianists? Finally, just because few get injured doesn't imply tennis should be used to develop piano technique. Thus your last statment is not logical.




It's relevant because you have absolutely no data, not even a poll that you performed among your students of 20 years, that it's either good or bad for pianists. That is what this forum is about, isn't it? My posts were about the danger of high impact sports as they relate to pianists, not as they relate to non-pianists.
Since you endorsed tennis for pianists, even though you have no idea how many pianists were among the 20 years worth of injury free students you taught that caused you to endorse tennis for pianists, I asked what I already knew. That you had no idea how many of your students were pianists and how tennis affected the piano technique of your litany of students.
Calling me illogical after your endorsement of tennis for pianists based on your "expertise" of teaching students that you had no knowledge of being or not being pianits, under this set of circumstances, really takes the proverbial cake.
We're pianists here, right? Not tennis players, which you seem to have forgotten.


Edited by BJones (03/01/09 02:08 PM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1155286 - 03/01/09 02:43 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Why would it possibly be relevant to find out how many of my tennis pupils were pianists? Finally, just because few get injured doesn't imply tennis should be used to develop piano technique. Thus your last statment is not logical.




It's relevant because you have absolutely no data, not even a poll that you performed among your students of 20 years, that it's either good or bad for pianists. That is what this forum is about, isn't it? My posts were about the danger of high impact sports as they relate to pianists, not as they relate to non-pianists.
Since you endorsed tennis for pianists, even though you have no idea how many pianists were among the 20 years worth of injury free students you taught that caused you to endorse tennis for pianists, I asked what I already knew. That you had no idea how many of your students were pianists and how tennis affected the piano technique of your litany of students.
Calling me illogical after your endorsement of tennis for pianists based on your "expertise" of teaching students that you had no knowledge of being or not being pianits, under this set of circumstances, really takes the proverbial cake.


Not really. Again, my point was that in my experience very few people from any profession get tennis elbow(and even if they do it usually goes away). There's no reason why this general statement shouldn't apply to specificially lawyers, pastry chefs, scuba divers or PIANISTS. It's not really complicated reasoning but it is valid.

The OP was not a concert pianist. He's a photographer. If he was a professional pianist, then any sport has some chance of injury so that it would up to the individual person if taking a chance was worth the enjoyment.

Only one person on this thread had an injury and this was someone who practiced 20 hours a week and had a kick serve that requires a lot of back arching. Someone who plays that number of hours at that age is usually trying to play at a highly competitive level and can get an injury do to endless repetition. None of this applies to the original poster.

Finally, as other people pointed out, some of your earlier posts where you that claimed I said injury was not a possiblility are also dead wrong. Just read my first post in the thread.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/01/09 02:58 PM)

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#1155293 - 03/01/09 02:51 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: pianoloverus]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Why would it possibly be relevant to find out how many of my tennis pupils were pianists? Finally, just because few get injured doesn't imply tennis should be used to develop piano technique. Thus your last statment is not logical.




It's relevant because you have absolutely no data, not even a poll that you performed among your students of 20 years, that it's either good or bad for pianists. That is what this forum is about, isn't it? My posts were about the danger of high impact sports as they relate to pianists, not as they relate to non-pianists.
Since you endorsed tennis for pianists, even though you have no idea how many pianists were among the 20 years worth of injury free students you taught that caused you to endorse tennis for pianists, I asked what I already knew. That you had no idea how many of your students were pianists and how tennis affected the piano technique of your litany of students.
Calling me illogical after your endorsement of tennis for pianists based on your "expertise" of teaching students that you had no knowledge of being or not being pianits, under this set of circumstances, really takes the proverbial cake.


Not really. Again, my point was that in my experience very few people from any profession get tennis elbow(and even if they do it usually goes away). There's no reason why this general statement shouldn't apply to specificially lawyers, pastry chefs, scuba divers or PIANISTS. It's not really complicated reasoning but it is valid.


Like I said, You think tennis is conducive to fluent piano technique, and due to your 20 years of teaching thousands of concert level pianists tennis, you personally think tennis injuries are bunk. You should explain this and share your empirical data with concert pianists and medical profesionals. Especially, medical profesionals who are proficient musicians and see if they agree with you endorsement of tennis for pianists.
I can refer you to some if you'd like to elucidate them with your recomendations. I can PM you names of physicians and therapists who have treated pianists, specifically addressing problems from sports related injuries that have comprimised thir ability to play their instrument if you'd care to run your mumbo-jumbo by them.
Who knows? You may revolutionize the medical profession with your vast knowledge of sports injuries and how they relate to pianists. crazy
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1155300 - 03/01/09 03:05 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
[quote=BJonesLike I said, You think tennis is conducive to fluent piano technique...[/quote]

LOL. Where did I say that?

The OP's original question was whether tennis could be injurious to his piano. It was not whether tennis would help.

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#1155330 - 03/01/09 04:06 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: pianoloverus]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
[quote=BJonesLike I said, You think tennis is conducive to fluent piano technique...


LOL. Where did I say that?

The OP's original question was whether tennis could be injurious to his piano. It was not whether tennis would help. [/quote]

And your answer was in essence, "go right ahead. Injuries related to tennis are very rare and I've never seen or heard of one".
You should really think twice before giving pianists advice like that. But here, taking a page from your book, I'll do the same thing.

here's my list of activities that couldn't possibly be injurious or detrimental to piano technique:

1) tennis
2) handball (no glove)
3) arm-wrestling
4) bare knuckle boxing
5) martial arts, especially ridge-hand, knuckle, and palm strikes

Since I don't know of any pianists with concert-level technique that have ever compromised their piano technique with any of these activities, I can fully endorse them and say that "no pianist that I know of has ever been injured by any of these activities".

I've been teaching piano for 20 years and none of my students have ever been injured by any of these activities. Could it possibly be because they have enough sense not to indulge in them?

See how your brand of logic works?

Whether you believe it or not, tennis is a high impact sport as it relates to impact on the playing mechanism. That is, the wrist, elbow, and shoulder. Impact sports should not be recommended to pianists with a honed, proficient technique, if they value that facility.

Of course, if they don't mind the possibility of waking up the day after partaking of high impact activity with fingers swollen like bananas, a frozen elbow, or possible entrapment, tennis is a beautiful sport and go right ahead and smack that ball around as the tennis pro suggests. The tennis racket might come in handy to push the keys down when your fingers become too stiff to do so. wink

BTW, did you happen to have seen pictures of Argerich, Richter, Lang Lang, Berman, Gould, Horowitz, etc., etc., or any other noted pianists with tennis racket in hand? I'm sure there must be quite a few tennis players among them.


Edited by BJones (03/01/09 04:15 PM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


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#1155346 - 03/01/09 04:36 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
BJones
Forgive the intrusion. You may be a great musician / teacher but I am not following your binary logic.
You are building your algorithm based on a false read of the stated hypothesis.
In reality it is a risk benefit equation. PLUS stated that the risk of hand injury from playing tennis is low in general. Therefore a pianist who wishes to engage in tennis playing (and who always does so at his/her own risk) will do so knowing that 1) there is risk 2) the risk ( probability of injury) is low. Neither of these statements can be equated with 1) encouraging pianists to play tennis or 2) tennis is good for piano playing.
Apply the same to another sport. The key element here is RISK or probability of injury. I would ask an arm wrestling coach, what is his experience with player injury over 20 years (likely higher than tennis), plug that in the equation above. Rinse, repeat.
Now, the above risk assessment assumes that the tennis player is working with a teacher / coach, as offered by PLUS. If you alter that variable, the risk of injury may increase.
This is vastly different from the catalog of injuries reported among people who played tennis ever, and which you are referring to. Those are likely higher in number, but also include people who played with poor technique, without a coach or whose hands are already under strain from other repetitive injury.
Now, here is a fun experiment, ask your students to play tennis with the same coach: I am willing to bet that those who develop an injury are those with the poorest piano technique and whose hands are already strained. To make it more fun, compare your students' tennis injuries to those of the teacher's next door. smile
PS. I stopped playing tennis because it hurt my hands! But I was playing fast and furious without instruction and I stress my hands all week long at work and on the piano! But I would not generalize my experience to the rest of humanity. I decided that the risk was not worth my while. But I might consider proper instruction if I feel the tennis bug again..


Edited by Andromaque (03/01/09 04:37 PM)

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#1155376 - 03/01/09 05:33 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
[quote=BJonesLike I said, You think tennis is conducive to fluent piano technique...


LOL. Where did I say that?

The OP's original question was whether tennis could be injurious to his piano. It was not whether tennis would help.


And your answer was in essence, "go right ahead. Injuries related to tennis are very rare and I've never seen or heard of one".

BTW, did you happen to have seen pictures of Argerich, Richter, Lang Lang, Berman, Gould, Horowitz, etc., etc., or any other noted pianists with tennis racket in hand? I'm sure there must be quite a few tennis players among them. [/quote]

I never said "I've never heard of one". In fact, in my very first post I mentioned the possibility of tennis elbow.

Concert pianists are not relevant here because as I said in my last post the OP is a photographer. "Noted pianists" are not relevant to this thread. As I said in my last post, my advice wasnlt for concert pianists.

Abbey Simon for one played tennis regularly. And not seeing noted pianists(irrelevant to this thread to begin with) with a tennis racket in hand implies very little even if it was relevant. I've haven't seen pictures of many noted pianists eating schrimp or playing shuffleboard either. Must be bad for piano playing.

Finally, comparing tennis to bare knuckle boxing and dangerous forms of martial arts is extremely unreasonable.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/01/09 05:46 PM)

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#1155431 - 03/01/09 07:21 PM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: Andromaque]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
BJones
.
PLUS stated that the risk of hand injury from playing tennis is low in general.


Is the risk neglgible for pianists who make a living based on the dexterity of their hands? Or just for the general public. because if it's just for the general public, I'd agree with you. But we're not talking about the general public. We're talking about tennis as it relates to pianists and their technique. And of course, there are pianists whose technique are at different levels. A pianist who can only eke out Mozart sonatas as half tempo isn't going to notice a stiffening effect to the upper headroom of his technique quite as much as someone ued to playing Chopin Etudes at tempo with little effort.

Based on what I've seen, as both a technically proficient pianists who must rely on my hands for a living, and as a lifelong advanced athlete, certain sports can and will have a detrimental effect on technique. The ones who escape without injury are the lucky ones and whose advanced piano technique is not somewhat compromised, either temporarily or permanently

Are you backing up his contention that tennis cannot have adverse effects on a pianist's hands as you are a medical practicioner or physical therapist, or do you have the scientific data handy to back up this claim of tennis being recommended for pianists?
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


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#1155668 - 03/02/09 02:41 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: BJones]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5932
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: BJones
Are you backing up his contention that tennis cannot have adverse effects on a pianist's hands as you are a medical practicioner or physical therapist, or do you have the scientific data handy to back up this claim of tennis being recommended for pianists?

Who said tennis cannot have adverse effects on a pianist's hands?
Who recommended tennis for pianists?
No-one. You're putting words in someone's mouth again.
I think we've all gathered that you are sure it can have adverse effects, and that you don't recommend tennis for pianists. Can you leave it at that, without claiming that people are saying what they in fact aren't? Don't you think your arguments are convincing enough without resorting to misquoting?
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1155717 - 03/02/09 07:37 AM Re: I play tennis one day a week... [Re: currawong]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 391
Loc: An Oligarchy
Hey Guys,

Why don't we try this?



Wouldn't damage the hands/wrists, I guess ...
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Nepotism: We promote family values here - almost as often as we promote family members.

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