Hello all,

I would very grateful if could hear your comments aboit this:
I would like to tune my piano in something richer than a ET. Well (or better) temperaments always sacrifice "high degree" keys to obtain purer intervals in "low degree" keys. So, what about all these pieces of Chopin, Schubert etc. entirely composed on black keys?.
If I tune a WT, instead of obtaining purer intervals I will have the contrary when playing on these keys.
These pieces have been written on black keys for technical reasons only. So I wonder know if Chopin etc really used a WT.
The problem is that I can not tune for some chopin compositions and re-tune for Beethoven.

Mr Foote, I bought your CDs which I found very interesting. You chose, however, an "inverted" (De Morgan) temperament for the recording of the Chopin Fantaisie-Impromptu, wich is not a convenient temperament for most of the compositions. What is your recomendation?

Thank you very much for your comments.

Jorge Maroto

Welcome!

It is an interesting mind experiment to go from the idea of "better" or "worse" keys in a Well type temperament to the idea of a painters pallette. That is, the additional tension/calmness gives the composer a greater range of emotive range to use. I'm not clear that those pieces were written on black keys for technical reasons, but it is pretty clear that strict equal temperament wasn't widespread before the 1900's - some might rightly argue that except for a very small percentage of technicians, strict equal temperament wasn't achievable until midway through the 20th century!

That being said, there is a wide range of temperaments available for tuning - from really spicy, to almost imperceptable. Check out www.rollingball.com for a graphical view of many.

Ron Koval

Thank you very much Ron,

I have heard several times that tuning a non equal temperament can destabilize or damage the piano. Is there any technical reason for that? Can I choose any well temperament to tune my piano without concern?

Thanks again,

Jorge Maroto

No damage... On the Rollingball site, you can see the amount in cents each note is to be offset from equal temperament.(The number above the three letter triad represents the offset for the root of the chord) While some of the "spicier" choices, like a meantone may have an offset over 20 cents (!!), most of the more 'tame' well temperaments limit that offset to under 10 cents.

On the stability issue - well, I suppose changing temperament will be less stable than fine tuning a piano that is only a few cents from pitch, but around here, I deal with pianos over 20 cents off pretty much all year long!

You can find my variable strength temperament under the "modern well" section. I created this one to get the most flavor with the smallest offsets - easing the transition to the piano. I recalculated to a 2.1 strength for the widest appeal.

The Bach/Lehman temperament is not only a good story, but has a fine sound as well.
www.larips.com

Ron Koval

Greetings,
Forgive my lateness in reply, I am still recovering from a major shoulder operation and haven't been around the computer!

Jorge writes:

" Well (or better) temperaments always sacrifice "high degree" keys to obtain purer intervals in "low degree" keys. So, what about all these pieces of Chopin, Schubert etc. entirely composed on black keys?"

There is no sacrifice involved in any temperament, but, rather, a choice to be made. The unequal temps. gain their main characteristic by varying the widths of the thirds, but it is in the manner that the composers used these various sizes of thirds that the big differences are made.

"
These pieces have been written on black keys for technical reasons only. So I wonder know if Chopin etc really used a WT.
The problem is that I can not tune for some chopin compositions and re-tune for Beethoven."

The more remote keys offer a higher degree of musical intensity, as measured by emotional affect. If a composer desires more or less "expression", they can create harmony with the thirds for maximum expression, or perhaps 17ths for something more subdued. Everything wasn't just close, dense harmony with the thirds predominant.
In the case of Chopin, it is instructive to understand that in a Well-temperament, the keys with the most highly tempered thirds had the purest fifths. This means that a piece in C# will have a very expressive harmony and perhaps a melodic line of pure intervals. This creates a musical texture that is impossible to have in ET.
My choice of the DeMorgan tuning on the CD was simply to offer a chance to perhaps hear something that was unavailable anywhere else. We listened to that piece on ET and WT also, and felt like the DeMorgan was just as beautiful. Chopin sounds good on all of them.
For a general WT that makes a great improvement for all of the pre-1900 literature, I suggest the Coleman 11. It is a mild departure, but makes a huge difference.

There is another aspect of playing pre-1850 music on a WT. The original pedal markings can be used, since the muddy blur so often ascribed to the greater sustain of the modern piano is actually a result of the haziness of ET! When playing Beethoven, (say, perhaps the first 15 measures of the Waldstein's last mvt),what is blurry on a equally tempered Steinway D becomes a cascading build-up of harmony in a WT. The more pedal that can be used, the more resonance is created.
What is surprising is that the temperament needn't be an extremely strong temperament to show this improved effect. Simply slowing the C-E down to around 9 cents wide(as opposed to the 13.7 cents of ET), will created this improvement, while the F#-A# remains under 18 cents.
Words only go so far in describing the sensual difference of a WT, and are a poor subsitute for actually playing a piano tuned this way. I would hope that any classical pianist expose themselves to the same harmonic palette that was in near universal use when the golden age of piano composition occurred (1750-1900)
Regards,

You could try various temperaments on a digital or software piano first, probably everybody has some kind of midi keyboard these days.
Then you will have a better idea if you really want to undertake this project and re-tune your acoustic to a different temperament and to which one.
If you don't have a suitable DP, a good choice could be a GEM RP-X module, or pRP700 piano. It allows to create any temperaments and/or stretched tunings you want and store any number of them to files and load when you need them. For example, you may create 12 just intonation based tunings if you like.
Eight more popular temperamets are provided by GEM.
But caution! These GEM instruments have excellent Steinway D and Fazioli F308, arguably the most expressive and the most playable and the best sounding digital/software pianos available today.
You may like them more than your acoustic, then what?

I'm sure there are other dp/software choices to play with temperaments as well. But it really seems to me a good idea to try on a digital first before risking it on the real thing.

It seems like there might be three directions to go (at least).

One is to do your experimenting on a digital. You can retune to temperaments at the push of a button, even store several and play the same piece in A=B fashion.

Or, you could spend the money to have a professional tuner retune your piano temperaments for every different key. Is there any harm to a piano from frequent tuning? Seems like you'd wear grooves where the pins fit?

Or, you could use digital techniques on the music instead. Once a score is in software, you can change to any key with the click of a mouse. Set your acoustic piano up in the key and temperament you like, and move the music to fit the key.

Ron,

I'd like to try one of your temperaments. I have the Verituner, but I don't think your 2.1 temp is one of the choices. Which one in the VT would be the best to try that has a mild "flavor" but still produces key color?

Hey Ralph

Go with the 2.0 - under the well temperament menu. The maximum difference is only 0.1 cents from the 2.1! (It was one of those spreadsheet experiments to find optimum resonance) I doubt in the real world, anyone could really tune a regular piano to that kind of tolerance and make it stay to measure a difference...

If you wanted a "full strength" flavor with the same attributes, just open up the temperament to see the offsets for the 2.0 Multiply all values/offsets by 2 to get the KV4.0 . Enter those new offsets into a new custom temperament and you are then ready to tune. The naming number reflects the largest offset value in cents from an equal tempered tuning.

Ron Koval

Oh - another thought - do you have the vt100, or the pocket pc version? I have a couple of custom styles that may match your piano a little better than the built-in ones. The custom style function really allows the verituner to unleash the multi-temperament approach to tuning...

Ron Koval

I have the VT100. I've tried several custom styles before, but found the built in expanded style works pretty well, but I'd sure like to give it a try. It's not perfect. I tried a few of my own made up styles that resulted in some pretty strange sounding tunings.

Cool

If you like the expanded you may like this one. The basis for my experimentation was to have the machine determine the stretch based on more than one partial match for most areas of the piano. I don't use a plus or minus beats, just a percentage of partial match.

A0 6:3 45% / 10:5 55%
(two setpoints for A0 - resutant stretch between 6:3 and 10:5 octave, slightly favoring the 10:5)

E1 6:3 100%
C2 6:3 100%
A3 - A4 6:3 30% / 4:2 70%
A5 4:2 50% / 4:1 50%
A6 4:2 40% / 4:1 60%
A7 4:1 100%
C8 4:1 60% / 8:1 40%

Watch out for transposition errors while entering the information! (I just double-checked the numbers) Let me know how you like it! (even in ET)

Ron Koval

Great stuff. Thanks Ron. I can't wait to give it a try.

One issue I've found with the stronger temperaments is as the piano drifts out of tune, certain intervals can get very nasty. The entire piano doesn't go out of tune symetrically which results is some pretty funky beats with wide intervals. I also like to reserve experimenting with tunings to certain times of the year when the humidity and temperatures stabilize allowing for a more stable tuning.

I can understand why a WT tuning can sound so good in a concert setting because that piano was freshly tuned. Play it again in 3 days or 3 weeks and the experience would probably be different. I also believe certain concerts have a magical quality to them not only because the performer was having a good day, but also because the tuning happened to work extra well. It's hard to sound good on an "out of tune" piano.

Yup, well said. I don't do a lot of alternate temperament tunings anymore... A little bit of spice has a habit of turning into a little too much spice when the weather shifts! Here around Chicago, unless the humidity is controlled, pianos shift quite often.

That was another reason for trying to keep the offsets from ET to a minimum. Stability, with less chance of creating problems as the weather shifts. You shouldn't run into any problems with these milder well temperaments.

Ron Koval

Well Ron and others, I tried the Koval 2.0 and it sounds great. It's a mild WT with very pure 5ths in the frequently used keys. The offsets for the "B's" and "F's" had me a little worried, but it fits well (ha, no pun intended). For those with a VT100 and the knowledge to custom the style, I would highly recommed Ron's custom style that he outlined in his post. It turns out I had a style very close to that one with only minimal differences. I very much prefer WT over ET. The piano just warms up beautifully. It'll be interesting to see (hear) how well this holds with all the rain we've had in the northeast. The humidity is up th 48% and will probably drop to the low 30's by the weekend.

I normally tune ET for my piano and my few customers as well. I use the VT pocket and it works great. I have tuned Bill Bremmer's ET via Marpurg and I am able to produce a very good aural tuning with that method, although I still use the VT for paying customers. Someday my aural skills will be marketable.

I just tried Bremmer's EBVT that is preprogrammed in my VT and I am really pleased with the result. I didn't know what to expect but I really like the tuning. I am able to bring out of the piano a more varied rendition of the music I play. I guess the difference in some of the intervals provides the different 'colors' I just found in music I have played for years. I tried some Beethoven, Chopin, DeBussy and Rachmanninof as well as some of the pop stuff I play and I was quite intrigued by the 'flavors and colors' I could produce. I was also able to try different voicings of melody and accompaniment, and was amazed at what was possible. My 6 foot Schimmel sounded a foot longer and I sounded like a much better pianist.

The only concern I have is that if I keep this tuning on my piano, will I get lost in the difference and botch a performance when I play on an ET tuned instrument? I am really enjoying the new luster in my music with the EBVT tuning.

It's been long know in any non-keyed instrument, that you can play or sing in a different scale.

Let me put on my musicologist/singer hat for a bit.

In a cappella choir music, since there are only voices, the tuning can become spectacular. Cadences, perfertly set, off course the voices have to be singing without vibrato.

One of the most shocking/thrilling things that ever happened was when at a cadence, I think it was a P5, out of nowhere, came the 3rd, then a very high, 8va sounded. No one was singing these tones but there they were--the real haromonics came in, like angels. There is something to say for tuning, especially in non-keyed instruments.

Some of this effect can be done on the piano, but the wolf keys are out there, where every thing sounds terrible.

People play Bach's WTC, thinking today, they are hearing how Bach would have heard it. But that's not at all what Bach was hearing. His temperment was "well" not "equal," that we use today. The WTC was written to show off the variations of color in keys in Well Temperment.

Composers, previous to equal temperment did give credence and paid attention to the "key," there piece was in. this falls back to the old, modal system. Only the Ionian (major) and Aeolian (minor) has come down to us today. But there's the Dorian, lydian, mixolydian, phyrgian, etc. The phyrgian mode is very sad, dark, much more so than the aeolian.

One more thing to consder is that even if you do use a historical temperment, you are still not replicating what the composer intended.

I run into this all the time in choral music.

While the notes, are correct, perhaps even the temperment as well (or just), the biggy is the Pitch of the modern notes are wrong.

In general, historical pitches were (but not always) about 1/2 step lower than today.

You can listen to a recording of Bach. It sounds wonderful, easy, calming. then listen to another recording of the same, which still sounds good, but is strident, and harsh.

What makes the difference?

The 1st is performed down a 1/2 step--and the quality becomes much more mellow, while the same piece performed at todays pitch, is strong, and strained.

Not only then do we have to take into account the scale used, but also the pitch used.

In the case of Bach, you'd be listening to the piece in a key that is 1/2 step above what he meant the piece to be heard in. It changes the color, the whole character of the work & what the composer was trying to accomplish.

Bob Tate

Do you know at what pitch were tuned the first pianos made in history and those played by Bach?

8 foot.

???

They were tuned at 8 feet?

Thanks for the compliments about the EBVT. I've been so wrapped up in defending the PTG Tuning Exam that this thread slipped by me entirely. I am not sure what offsets are included with the Verituner for the EBVT. There have been discrepancies about what they should be and there have also been two changes to it to produce a second and third version. The final figures which Owen Jorgensen calculated for me for the EBVT III are:

C: 3.8
C#: -0.8
D: 0.9
D#: 3.1
E: -2.0
F: 1.8
F#: -2.7
G: 3.1
G#: 1.2
A: 0.0
A#: 2.4
B: 0.0

I must say that I have never been completely satisfied using these correction figures with my SAT III. The EBVT (all versions) is in a class of Well Temperaments known as Irregular. That means the tempered 5ths are of different sizes. A Regular WT would have the tempered 5ths all the same size. Examples of this are the Thomas Young #1 and the Vallotti.

It has been my experience trying any number of WT combinations that the Irregular temperaments actually sound more interesting than the Regular ones. Both the Thomas Young and the Vallotti are often recommended as first temperaments to try. They look good on paper but in practice, they will leave you disappointed, in my opinion.

It seems to be the consensus among piano technicians who regularly use WT's that a mild Victorian style will work for all music to be played on the modern piano. I agree with that.

Since I started using the EBVT aurally, it was my natural inclination to tune out the octaves the same way I do in ET. I compare the double octave and the octave and 5th and simply make them Equal Beating. In ET, that provides for perfectly smooth and regular sized octaves.

However, when used with any version of the EBVT, it creates irregular sized octaves. That sounds alarming if not incorrect to many people but I can assure you that just as with the temperament, the irregularly sized octaves are what gives the piano that special, "magic" effect. They lead to that signature "pipe organ effect" I get when I play a long, C Major arpeggio across the piano when I finish the tuning. I never quite hear that desired effect when I use the SAT III's FAC program, even when I try to manipulate the octaves aurally.

As far as I know, no other ETD or software can do what I want it to do either. For that reason, I no longer use the FAC program to tune the EBVT, I tune it only by the Direct Interval method on a blank page. I save these programs and use them time and again and never have a problem with them. This conflicts with most people's experience about re-using a stored program but it works for me and I know what I want to hear.

I do have some suggestions, however for two temperaments which will work very well with calculated programs. They are very mild Meantone temperaments rather than WT's. A Meantone Temperament has all of the 5ths tempered exactly the same amount. Since the 5ths are tempered more than in ET, there will always be one 5th which cannot be tuned, is left unresolved and is wide rather than narrow. The unresolved 5th is usually left between G# and Eb (D#).

The wide 5th is the so-called "wolf" 5th. In the classic 1/4 comma Meantone, it is terribly wide and dissonant. However, in a very mild Meantone, it goes virtually unnoticed but provides for a unique energy and power for the key of Ab.

The two Mild Meantones I recommend are the 1/9 Comma Meantone in which each 5th is tempered by -2.4 cents. The other is a purely theoretical Meantone, never conceived of historically but is easily done using an ETD, a Meantone in which the 5ths are tempered by -2.5 cents.

Actually, it is virtually impossible to tune either of these temperaments aurally. No aural tuning instructions can be written which would provide an unequivocal way of replicating them. That was the primary goal in creating the EBVT: a temperament whose aural instructions can actually be followed with success and are quite easy to effect.

Therefore these two Mild Meantones are made possible only with today's modern technology.

The 1/9 Comma Meantone

C: 1.2
C#: -1.6
D: 0.4
D#: 2.4
E: -0.4
F: 1.6
F#: -1.2
G: 0.8
G#: -2.0
A: 0.0
A#: 2.0
B: -0.8

Each of these 5ths are tempered a mere 0.4 cents narrower than ET 5ths. It is easy to make that small of an error when tuning ET. Therefore, the 5ths don't sound appreciably different from those of ET. The one wide 5th between G# and D# is left 2.5 cents wide. It is only 0.1 cents wider than all of the other 5ths are narrow. Notice that all but one note values fall below 1/2 beat per second from ET. It can be used with any other fixed pitch instruments tuned in ET.

Therefore, when playing only the 4ths and 5ths, the temperament sounds virtually identical to ET but when playing M3's and M6's, the very mild color distinctions are revealed.

It is a fine "starter" non-ET. I use it for people who play lots of heavy romantic music and for hotel pianos where the pianists play cocktail type music, popular songs and smooth Jazz.

The next Mild Meantone has the 5ths tempered each by 2.5 cents narrow, just 0.1 cents narrower than the above.

2.5 cent Tempered 5ths Mild Meantone

C: 1.5
C#: -2.0
D: 0.5
D#: 3.0
E: -0.5
F: 2.0
F#: -1.5
G: 1.0
G#: -2.5
A: 0.0
A#: 2.5
B: -1.0

This Mild Meantone's "wolf" 5th is 3.5 cents wide, 1.5 cents wider than all of the other 5ths are narrow, so you do hear a slight beat in it. The key of Ab sounds glorious and full of energy. Try playing Chopin's Ab Polonaise with it and you'll hear it sparkle. Try Schubert's Ab Impromptu #4 and you will really get that "manic-depressive" difference when the piece suddenly "crashes" into the brooding part in C# minor. It really emphasizes the colors of the keys and the distinctly different moods of that piece. Try Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, you'll love it.

Also notice that all pitches remain below 1 beat per second difference from ET. It can also be used with virtually any kind of music. Both of these temperaments will reveal the magic "pipe organ effect" when a calculated program is used with plenty of stretch in the high treble.

I'd be very interested to know how Ron Koval would use either of these sets of figures with the Verituner. I don't have any experience with that type of device and software so I don't understand the data which he uses.

Of note to people in the Chicago area: The Chicago Chapter will be inviting me sometime this coming Spring to demonstrate the EBVT at the Fazioli dealer. I plan to have a piano tuned the way I do with the specially tempered octaves and a piano in ET for comparison. I will also give a brief demonstration of how the EBVT is tuned aurally and just how the octaves are determined on a vertical.

I hope to see many of you there. I'll let people know when the exact date is determined.

There is much speculation as to when equal temp came about. There was an equal temp published in Paris at the time of Mozart. However the piano hadn't been designed at the time of Bach. Harpsicords maybe....

So 8 feet is as good as any guess

8 feet? That really stinks! :p

Here's an interesting article on the history of pitch in western music:

http://tinyurl.com/yhg4we

The basis of pitch at one time was the length of an organ pipe, a low F, as I recall. It is still used to refer to the pitch of a rank of pipes. 8 foot is still the standard pitch that is used. That translates roughly to A 440, or A 435, or somewhere about that, depending on the temperature, humidity, length of a foot, whether the organ maker saved money by making the pipes shorter, etc.

ET was actually conceived of in China at something like 5,000 B.C. but they didn't have a piano to tune then, the Pearl River factory hadn't been built yet. The ancient Greeks knew of it but still no piano. The Broadwood factory ordered it in the late 1800's but nobody could tune it. Braide-White wrote about how great it was in the ealry 1900's but by following his instructions, very few people could still really do it. It really took Dr. Al Sanderson's ETD to finally help people really tune it. Along with the PTG Tuning Exam, large numbers of piano technicians finally began to tune a fair representation of ET beginning about 1980.

Now that everybody can finally do it, we're not interested anymore.

Re: Verituner temperament choices

It's easy to put in any new temperaments into the box or pocket pc version. There is an option to create and name a new custom temperament. Then it is just a matter of choosing an appropriate style stretch to match the specific piano. The temperament overlays on top of the style choice.

I haven't played with trying to program tempered octaves using the Verituner in a while - I didn't really like the effect. Maybe after the holidays, I'll take a look at it again.

Ron Koval

Thanks Ron. I hope you'll try to be at that Chicago Chapter meeting this spring, whenever it is scheduled. If what I do created odd effects, I wouldn't do it. Instead, I don't get what I want with the usual calculated curve.

I've always been interested to know if the Verituner could, in fact, create the same kind of octaves as I do with the Direct Interval method which requires a manual setting for each pitch on the SAT III. It is done however, just as easily and with virtually the same results as is achieved by tuning aurally.

I was playing with different stretch options involving the octave+5th and such - which ended up with some octaves with a slow roll. Maybe tempered octaves could be in the realm of possibility.

I remember when you presented in Chicago last time that I didn't notice any obvious motion in the octaves for that tuning (I just had a few moments at the keyboard) - the effect may be more subtle than I was looking for. That was pre-Verituner for me - I'll be interested in taking a look at what you will be presenting this time.

Ron Koval

Ron I get just one or two slow roles in the lower part of the 5th octave. D4-D5 in particular. Whenever I have used the FAC program, I have to set D5 typically 1 cents sharper to keep the G4-D5 5th from beating all too noticeably. This will create a wide D4-D5 octave which is about like those of the ET with pure 5ths.

Otherwise, the double octaves and their corresponding 12ths (octave and 5ths) sound virtually pure. Those that correspond to a pure 5th in the temperament are, in fact, pure. Those which correspond to a tempered 5th are wide by perhaps a cent but the beat is so slow that you don't really hear it. Any musician would take it as a pure interval.

Rather than creating some odd or bizarre effect, the effect is amazing clarity. The "pipe organ effect" occurs when you listen to that C major chord played across the entire keyboard and you hear partials in near perfect alignment. There is only a slow, phasing sound, about one phase every 2 seconds.

The goal is not to hear that effect, of course but it is always pleasing and exciting for both me and my customers to experience.

Oh , thanks for the clarification. Next week, I should have some time to crunch the numbers on those temperaments you posted. Thanks!

Ron Koval