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#1114156 - 06/05/06 12:42 AM Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3485
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Come one, come all, let's have a ball with the lovely Croatian Rhapsody!

Ok, I have taken the liberty of starting this thread now, mainly because we all need to be clear on the score we're going to use and make sure that everyone who's interested can participate. First of all, here again is the transcription that is available to anyone who wants to download it:

Croatian Rhapsody transcribed by Matthew Burrows

Scroll down a bit to the selection of Matthew Burrows's transcriptions, it should be easy to find.

Here is the MP3 of the piano performance I originally found

Croatian Rhapsody as performed by Kenji Kanemasu

You will notice that there are some minor differences. I have the score that matches Kanemasu's performance, but it's in a Japanese magazine and it would be difficult for most PWers to get legally.

So if people are ok with the Burrows transcription, I think we should do that one. Or.... if people are not overly fond of the Burrows transcription... then we should talk about it some more and see what other options we have.

By the way, the Burrows transcription is in no way simplified, from what I can tell, both are of equal difficulty.

Comments? Suggestions?
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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Petrof Pianos

#1114157 - 06/05/06 01:00 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
variations.. lots of really fun variations.

i'd learn that one maybe. or part of it.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#1114158 - 06/05/06 08:38 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
I am not sure it is worth the effort for everyone to get Kanemasu's transcription when an acceptable equivalent is readily accesible within a few mouse clicks. Either way, though, I am agreeable and would like to participate.
_________________________
Dean

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#1114159 - 06/05/06 08:48 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
petrof1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Gulf Coast
You can count me in! The tempo is going to a real challenge for me. I've never played a song like this before! But i really like the song , so I can't resist tagging along for the ride! \:\)

And yes I do have the Matthew Burrows transcription.
_________________________
Make music not war

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#1114160 - 06/05/06 09:00 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
crystalncrew Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 47
Loc: SC
My kids won't let me stop playing this recording!! I guess it will ultimately help me. \:D This is beautiful.
Crystal
_________________________
Homeschooling Mom to 7
http://www.raisingplenty.blogspot.com

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#1114161 - 06/05/06 09:33 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
...fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy ride! \:D

Crystal....I know what you mean about playing it...i listened to it several times over this past weekend. I think this is one of those pieces that will not only sound beautiful (when we learn to play it well ;\) ) but will be really fun to play.

ShiroKuro, thanks for this recommendation. I am so looking forward to learning this one!
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114162 - 06/05/06 09:40 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3485
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Opus, no kidding!

This piece is obviously very appealing to a lot of us, but I'm sure we'll be cursing it in the months to come! :rolleyes:

And I agree with DK, getting the other arrangement would probably be a logistical nightmare. (I go through heck and high water every time I try to get something from the US.)
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114163 - 06/05/06 01:56 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
crystalncrew Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 47
Loc: SC
If anyone has any suggested finguring on this one, I would love to see it.
Crystal
_________________________
Homeschooling Mom to 7
http://www.raisingplenty.blogspot.com

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#1114164 - 06/05/06 02:02 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
You're not the only one Crystal \:D , I would bet ShiroKuro has worked out some highly efficient fingering already and I am extremely curious to see it. However, I am going to try my own fingering first, and then compare it with what ShiroKuro and/or others have worked out. So, if anyone posts any fingering suggestions, I'm not going to look at it until I've had a chance to see what I come up with.

You guys are really quick, I haven't even printed out a copy of this yet.
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114165 - 06/05/06 02:50 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
petrof1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Gulf Coast
Ok, I have now listened to this for the 38th time, in fact I am listening to this again as I type this!
I really like this song, it makes me feel energetic!

I've also examined the transcription. I notice there's alot of repetition, that being said, simplifies the song a little......

As far as I can see the hardest part is going to be the tempo. The next hardest is going to be the fingering, so I can see what Opus is taliking about!

I am excited, I have never had music like this before! It is indeed a treasure! \:\)
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Make music not war

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#1114166 - 06/05/06 04:16 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Agilita Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 476
Loc: Missouri
I listened and it is wonderful! I've printed it out. Now? Are we working on a certain number of measures? How are we proceeding?

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#1114167 - 06/05/06 05:10 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
How about this...

After everyone looks over the piece and plays around with it a little bit on the keyboard...

Why don't we poll everyone & see how long we think we might need to get through the piece?

We can also talk about how everyone plans to approach the Croatian Rhapsody. (hands seperate, certain phrases, measures, starting tempo's ecteteras...

(I'll probably add more questions later)
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114168 - 06/05/06 06:17 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3485
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Very quick post because I should be on my way to work (PW is as addictive as playing is!)

Nina put the Burrows transcription into Finale and made this MP3. Thank you Nina!!!!

Croatian Rhapsody played by Finale

Remember, it's played by a computer, not a person, but what's helpful is that listening to this makes it a little easier to see what's different about this arrangement. Listen while looking over the score, and you can see just which parts are going be really hard. But yes, it's so repetitive that there isn't a lot of isolated information to learn.

Hope this is helpful. I'll be back later to tell you all how much I don't know about the fingering for this piece! \:D
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114169 - 06/05/06 09:57 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
I only have a few minutes available this evening to look this over.

My initial impression based on about five minutes of playing around with it on my piano is, simply stated, that this is going to be a very challenging piece of music for me to master.

I know I will be able to play this music eventually, but the obvious question, considering this is also a group effort, is how long will it take to learn it. Although I can't say for sure, my best uneducated guess at this point is that it will take me at least 3 months, and perhaps even more likely, as long as 6 months. I say this not only because I have other unrelated obligations and a limited amount of time to devote to this, but because I have also placed myself in other challenging learning groups.

I can handle multiple groups, and actually welcome the variety of having different pieces to learn, but I can only handle them all if there's a slow enough pace for me. Having said that, if the rest of the group is able to move along much faster, I can always withdrawl. If that ends up being the case, then I would certainly bookmark this thread for future reference.

What do the rest of you think?

ShiroKuro, I tried to find the small section you described in this thread and wasn't able to find it in the version transcribed by Matthew Burrows. Are the two versions that different?
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114170 - 06/05/06 10:18 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
petrof1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Gulf Coast
Ater revewing the music, I have decided that it would probably take me between 4 and 6 months to work on the whole piece of the Croatian Rhapsody due primarily to the tempo. I am sure everyone will progress at a different speed according to their skills level. I would consider myself to be late intermediate.
I am also doing Take 5 and Victors Piano Solo. In addition to that I am also working on a couple of classical pieces outside this forum. I also have work and responsibilities. I am sure most people in the forum do as well. ;\)
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Make music not war

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#1114171 - 06/05/06 10:20 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
I've had the chance to look at the score and I think the challenge for me will be with the rhythm/tempo. I will print out the score and give it a try.
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#1114172 - 06/05/06 10:23 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
Croatian Rhapsody by New Year's Eve? \:D

(...slinking back thinking he'll end up with "finishing/polishing Croatian Rhapsody" on his list of New Year's Resolutions for 2007 ) ;\)

[Edit: I'm in complete agreement kawaigirl, the rhythm is going to be difficult & demanding]
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Jeff

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#1114173 - 06/05/06 11:09 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
I kind of like the idea of six months to completion. Any suggestions for significant milestones within the piece? I tend to tackle my music sequentially by the page. Or we could subdivide the themes out. I am game for any rough outline we want to apply.

As an example:
1 page per month to equal the six months. We could further break down weekly goals.
Start Page 1
Week 1: Establish fingerings, identify trouble spots within page 1.
Week 2: Able to play through page 1 at tempo 50
Week 3: Page 1 tempo = 70
Week 4: Page 1 tempo = 80
Start page 2
Week 5: Establish fingerings, identify trouble spots within page 2. Page 1 tempo = 85
Week 6: Page 2 tempo = 50. Page 1 tempo = 90
etc.

That might be way to agressive a pace to bring the tempo up....

Let me just finish up by saying that I think this concept is very exciting and I look forward to trying out a team learning approach.
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Dean

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#1114174 - 06/06/06 08:20 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
dk, That looks like a very well thought out plan.

I'm not at my keyboard now, so I can't provide a more confident self-assessment that I might get from spending 20-30 minutes on the first page, but, I think I might be able to follow that plan.

What about the rest of us? Thoughts? Too slow?, Too fast? Just Right?
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114175 - 06/06/06 09:52 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3485
Loc: not in Japan anymore
DK, I agree that looks like a good plan. BUT

Let's not start on page 1... Hmm, I don't have the score out now, but let's start where both hands do that 16th note thingy where the LH goes up and down and the RH goes whereever it can.

I know, what I just wrote is completely incomprehensible. I'll get you some measure numbers tomorrow!

Let me rephrase my suggestion. How about going through the score and picking the hardest section? IMO that should be where we start.

There are at least three reasons for doing it this way. 1) Getting the hardest part into our fingers will make everything else come easier. 2) If we start practicing the hardest part first, that means we'll be working on that section from the beginning, so when it's time to crank up the tempo, we should be pretty comfortabe with even the most difficult sections. 3) If we started at the beginning, we'll get stuck when we get to the hardest part. This is the stage when a lot of people (self included) give up and put the score away. Starting with the hardest part will make it easier to stick with the piece through to the end.

What does everyone else think about this idea?

BTW, I'm taking the score with me to my lesson tomorrow. I'm sure my teacher thinks I'm insane, showing up with a new piece every week! :p
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114176 - 06/06/06 09:56 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3485
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Oh, I forgot to mention. I think this is definitely a 3-6 month piece for me as well. If I can get to the point where I can play through to the end in 3 months, then I might be able to have it a decent tempo to make a recording at about the 6th month.

The good thing about DK's timeline is that, even if someone (in other words, me) is not up to that tempo, we can still move forward as a group.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114177 - 06/06/06 10:18 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
I am flexible, I just wanted to keep the ball rolling since you got it started. I know it is not optimal, I just have always approached the song front to back because I feel like it...

So you propose that we look at measures 26-34, which could be further broken down into two phrases: 26-29 and 30-34.

What about 35-38? This is the equivalent to the measures you posted previously that have the ackward timing. Where do you rank that in difficulty?

Also, how would you approach the key change. As it is deemed next hardest within the entire piece or do you work in one key and then apply it to the key change later?

If everyone likes this approach we can break down the rest of the piece and evaluate for relative difficulty.

I am also curious how far into this song you have already gotten? You say you are taking it to your teacher tomorrow. Are you switching to the Burrows version, even though you started with Kanemasu? Have you worked with your teacher on this song at all or has it been all self study?
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Dean

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#1114178 - 06/06/06 10:34 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
While we are still establishing how we are going to do this I thought I would share my first (informal) practice session.

I printed the score and listened to the Burrows mp3 probably 5-10 times before sitting down at the piano. I then sat at the piano and went through the first 18 measures without any real timing just to establish my fingering. Once I was sure of my fingering I set the metronome to 1/8=50 and worked out the timing. I worked this up to 1/8=100 and then reset the metronome to 1/4=50. I didn't want to get too carried away before we actually get started so I stopped trying to progress any more. I then just toyed around with measures 19-29 right hand only no metronome... Looks like this is really going to be a fun piece to learn.

Anybody else getting a sneak peek in?
_________________________
Dean

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#1114179 - 06/06/06 10:58 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
from ShiroKuro
 Quote:
Oh, I forgot to mention. I think this is definitely a 3-6 month piece for me as well. If I can get to the point where I can play through to the end in 3 months, then I might be able to have it a decent tempo to make a recording at about the 6th month.
(breathing a big sigh of relief)
Thank you ShiroKuro, I was afraid you were going to suggest we rip through this by July and then move directly onto Rachmaninoff's "Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini".
 Quote:
The good thing about DK's timeline is that, even if someone (in other words, me) is not up to that tempo, we can still move forward as a group.
Yes, I would agree. Good looking plan dk! Thanks for helping us think this through!
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114180 - 06/06/06 11:19 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Quote:
Originally posted by ShiroKuro:
Let's not start on page 1... Hmm, I don't have the score out now, but let's start where both hands do that 16th note thingy where the LH goes up and down and the RH goes whereever it can.
[/b]
I know exactly the spot, since that's where I started as well!

We need to figure out some good fingerings for the left hand there. I'm still working on it, haven't found something really good and comfy yet. (Darn small hands!)

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#1114181 - 06/06/06 11:55 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
I haven't even begun to consider left hand fingering for those measures. I have some theoretical ideas, but I have difficulty picturing my fingering without physically working through what feels right. Maybe I can get some ideas on that tonight.

BTW thanks Nina for publishing an mp3 of the Burrows transcription.
_________________________
Dean

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#1114182 - 06/06/06 12:47 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
rockpeter Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 607
Loc: Montreal Canada
I listened to the piece once and also liked it.
Not sure though if I can dedicate as much time to it with my current repertoire.
But if it's ok I will jump in once in awhile while learning the piece as much as I can and giving my two cents.

Peter
_________________________
Ok..Ok... If you don't want your Steinway give it to me !!!!

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#1114183 - 06/06/06 01:14 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Soleil_nuage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 284
Loc: Virginia
If it is okay, I would like to join this group as well as the Beginner-Intermediate one. If you are all looking at a 3-6 month timetable, starting with a slow tempo, I should be able to manage.

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#1114184 - 06/06/06 03:14 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Agilita Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 476
Loc: Missouri
Where are you all beginning? What page and measure? (What 16th note thingy?) I started working on page 1 last night. This is a great piece and rather addictive.

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#1114185 - 06/06/06 04:27 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
yellowville Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Ithaca, NY
Shiro, do you mean the 26th measure? That does look tricky... so many notes! (This piece might have more notes than the rest of my repertoire combined!)

Any suggestions -- hands together or separately? I'm thinking separately, since it's the agility of the fingers that I'll need to focus on, not coordination so much.
_________________________
That man is richest whose pleasures are the cheapest. - H. D. Thoreau

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