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How do you really compare pianos of different brands?

[EDIT: Original topic was intended to be something else, but the first couple of responses have brought this thread into a different direction. So now the topic is piano evaluation methodology -- "how do you compare pianos?"

Go with the flow. ]

EDIT: Ax started this thread about comparing pianos by SIZE or PRICE. And that is how I thought I contributing what is below. BY SIZE. My contribution might make more sense knowing this.

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Well, for me, it is comparing the pianos of the same size (tallest uprights!) but that cannot even be because, in reality, some of the tallest of one make might only be 48-9 inches and others may be 52+.

Within the same make I have not found that much difference in a 48/52 - maybe a little more power in the Steinbergs.

The problem is FINDING the ones I wish to test before making my purchase. They are scarce as hens teeth!

Finding several makes in one place would be ideal.

I found a Forster, Sauter, Pleyel, Bohemia all in one place, at Altenburgs. I found a Schimmel and Yamaha in one place, Boston P&O. I found nothing with the Mason and Hamlin as not even the Kawaii there was prepped, in Londonderry. And several Steinberg's, a Petrof, Schultz Pollmann at Rogers.

Back at Boston P&O, I did try several of the best grands in similar size. Now THAT was enjoyable! Bosie, Bechstein, Nicolas Schimmel, Fazioli, Estonia.

How do I compare them? By playing the same pieces from one to the other. Testing tone, touch, 'breaks', etc and making lots of notes. Surprisingly, the damper pedal was an issue with M&H, Forster, and Steinberg.

I would say cost is not relevant in my search, but that is not quite correct. I am looking for the better made pianos, so certainly cost has been a consideration...they are all as expensive as many grands you others are searching for. But since I am not trying lower end uprights I am not testing 'all' uprights.

How did I find out what pianos I wanted to try?
From the archives here and on other forums, and making charts with comments on them from your contributions.

Still hunting. Trips needed after the holidays. Wish I could just take a trip to Germany!

Roberta

Play Beethoven. Forget about vertical versus grand, size of the grand piano, or cost. Just play some Beethoven sonatas, preferably from his middle period and beyond.

At that point Beethoven was beginning to fill his sonatas with very sharp and sudden dynamic contrasts - fortissimo chords followed by pianissimo passages. Does the piano allow you to handle the contrast easily?

Other tests:

Soft accompaniments - Beethoven has many passages of 16th notes in the left hand supporting the melody. Can these notes be played softly with ease, or do you struggle to avoid a forte tone? What about the pulsating D natural that opens the Pastoral sonata? Can you play this pianissimo while bringing in the melody mezzo-forte?

Rapid notes - Beethoven doesn't have passages of repeated notes like Liszt, but his music was composed on pianos with much lighter actions. Can the piano you are testing handle the octave glissandi at the end of the Waldstein sonata? To do this, the action has to permit light skimming over the keys, while at the same time allowing each note to sound.

Clarity - Try the chords at the opening of the Hammerklavier. Does each note sound distinct? Is there a noticeable difference if you left one note of any of these chords out? Pianos with exceptional clarity allow chordal clusters to be understood, even in the bass.

Sound breaks - Are there noticeable breaks in tone across different parts of the keyboard (emphasis on "noticeable" or jarring breaks in tone - some difference should be expected). The arpeggios in the last movement of the Moonlight sonata are a good test. Any of his lengthy cadenza passages would do as well.

Sustainability - Any of Beethoven's slow movements can provide a sure test of cantabile playing. Pay close attention to the relation of the sustainability of the note to your use of the damper pedal. Do you find you need to use the pedal less than on your existing piano? That suggests the piano you are testing has greater sustainability.

Dynamic contrast - By now you've gotten a good feel for what the piano can do. Have you noticed how many degrees of tonal difference you can create below the level of piano? Can you generate pianissimo and then pianississimo with ease? Beethoven asks for this frequently, and you need a pretty good piano to comply. Are there any buzzes or rings or other sounds that distract your thinking while you play? Or instead, do you have a sense that the sound being created is consistently gorgeous?

You say you can't play any of this Beethoven - you're just a beginner? Fine. Create these types of tests from music you can play. Or, just bring along the Beethoven anyway and sight read slowly some of these passages. If you can do things even at a slow speed that you could never do before, the piano is going to help you become a better artist.

If I am looking seriously (in whcih case I will have some familair music with me as a backup):

The feel is what I notice first
Then I listen to whether action noise dominates the treble (as so often happens)
Then I listen to sustain across the dynamic range

I usually play scales, chords and aprpeggios for a while to warm my fingers up, and also check thet repetition rate feels ok (it is surprising how many pianos have poor key return).

Then similar tests to Numerian, though he is clearly a better player than me judging by his repertoire. I almost always start with something really easy. I also add in a bit of jazz just to see ho wteh piano sounds in a different genre.

Then I will play the same short piece through two or three times in a radically differnt manner, including passages at maximum volume to see if the piano feels overpowered or if the tone is grating or wearing. And at a whisper to see if it will cope and if damper npise or action noise is intrusive.

I don't even ask about price in most cases. Sticker prices are often irrelevant and for me there is no point having a price discussion unless I am seriously interested in the piano.

I try to compare pianos on a like for like basis by reference to size, although some pianos of 7ft from one maker may outperform larger pianos from another maker in some respects.

Kidn regards

Adrian

I wish I could play jazz. That's a great test for any piano. I also like your idea of playing the same piece louder each time. In some pianos the tone starts to turn brittle at the fortissimo level.

My piano handles the contrast easily. Its my chops that give me the problem.

Numerian,

I don't know what Oscar Peterson generally played but a great compilation of his "Oscar Peterson-Live at the Blue Note" is on a Bosendorfer and he and the piano are to envy.

For the first time in my life (since reading Fine and this Forum) I'm starting to look inside the piano - and underneath too!

I have a very short list of memorized pieces. I play sections of these pieces to test various things. I also improvise in either a classical or jazz style, to see if the piano will captivate me and lead me somewhere special. If something really stands out, I will focus my improvisation around that aspect.

Bach (senza pedal). Clarity of polyphony / isolation of thematic material. Note-to-note consistency in rapid passages. If it is too much work to pull this off cleanly and evenly, I might pass over the piano.

Chopin. Such a cornerstone of the pianist's repertoire - Chopin has to sound at home. Melody has to sing over a busy accompaniment. If the action is too heavy, it will show up here.

Liszt, for ultimate power, repetition, control.

Debussy, for sustain, tone color/shading, half-pedaling, una corda, and sostenuto.

I have a finger exercise which is helpful for checking repeated notes.

I also check tone by playing single notes at different volume levels throughout the gamut; in the bass I play chords softly, to see if I hear the notes clearly. Single notes are also good to analyze the register breaks. I always try to guess where the bass/tenor break is by ear, before looking!

My favorite test is to play something super-pianissimo.

Other than a favorite Rachmaninoff prelude, I seldom play anything all the way through. I'm very aware of how much time I might be taking, and try not to over-extend my welcome.

If I really like the piano, I return to play duets with a friend (who then plays solo while I listen).

If I find a flaw (a squeaky or thumping pedal, a jangly/out of tune note, or a buzz) I stop everything and repeat the noise over and over.

That is my test to see if the dealer is paying attention. :p

I remember hearing about Oscar Peterson at the Blue Note but didn't know it was a Bosendorfer - sounds like a great combination. I'll have to find this CD.

Whippen Boy, seriously, what do you hope to accomplish with this dealer testing? If you find the "right" piano, but it has a small problem the dealer doesn't recognize, would you pass on it because of his failures? Are you more interested in buying a piano or playing "gotcha" with dealers? Not meaning to be provacative, I'm really curious. I get customers in my store and sometimes I have a problem figuring out which ones are looking for a piano to purchase and which ones are just checking out pianos. I have piano lovers who regularly come into my store to check out pianos, I know they'll probably never buy anthing, but they're welcome. I hope if they find a "buzz", they'll tell me about it, not see if I can detect it on my own. Merry Ch..., sorry, Happy Holidays.

Graybeard,

It is not my intention to criticize dealers here. Here is an example of what I meant:

I was playing a fantastic piano this past year, when I became aware of the fact that adjacent notes were being struck whenever the una corda pedal was depressed. It was a disappointing to hear that, but I was fairly sure it was an easy fix.

I played the troublesome notes a few times, to see if the dealer noticed.

By the way - if they don't notice, I bring it up. Politely and tactfully.

A moment like this is an opportunity to see what their reaction is, and see how they might remedy the problem. It's not like I've planned a series of formal hoops for the dealer to jump through!

If I have no previous knowledge of a given dealer, I think it is helpful to learn something about them, as it may have a bearing on my future relationship with them as a customer. For me, it's not just about the "right" piano, but the dealer support too.

My opinion might be influenced different ways, such as if the dealer promises the moon, or says "I don't know, but will find out", or maybe even denies that there is a problem.

That dealer was very accommodating in fixing the problem, and appreciative that I mentioned it.

I didn't buy that particular piano, but that dealer did get my business!

Yes, I was doing more than just "checking out pianos".

Now a question for you: If you have no problem with people "checking out pianos" and not buying them, why do you even mention it?

Re: "Testing the Dealer"

Quite often, we read posts that stress the importance of buying from a good dealer, and posts that justify paying a premium to buy from a good dealer (as opposed to the cheapest source you can find). A corollary to these arguments is, of course, that learning more about the dealers is a necessary process -- "testing" the dealers is one tactic of approaching this learning process. The rest is simply about which "test tactics" are fair/good and which are not.

I will, however, caution against extending the sales person's attitude to the service department's competence/attitude. Sometimes, especially in small shops, the sales person is the owner and the technician, all one and the same. But in most shops, the sales people sell, the service departments do after sales service. A good/polite/responsive sales person is not necessarily indicative of a competent/responsive service department.

(Besides, if you're only dealing with one out of many sales people employed by the dealer, how do you know the sales person you're dealing with is a representative sample of the group?)

Frankly, if you believe in the importance of after-sales service, than I'd argue that learning more about the service department is an even more important aspect of learning about the dealer than just "testing" the sales person you're dealing with at the moment. For that, I think word of mouth from their existing customers ("track record") is probably the most important source of information.

If you have other insights on what questions to ask or thoughts on what the average customers can do to gain more insight into a dealer's service department, I'd be interested to read those.

It's quite unfortunate that while we have many posts that stress the importance of buying from a "good dealer," many posts on how to test pianos, and many posts dealing with detecting "sleazy sales tactics," -- but I cannot recall any post that gives people guidelines on HOW to evaluate dealers' after-sales service track records.

Axtremus,

Really good points! Actually, I wish more clients asked about after-sales service! If a salesman begins to brag or spew about their service department, it could be construed as "just another 'line' by just another salesman"!

However, if the CLIENT askes about after-sales service, it lends an opportunity for us to boast a bit about our service department (which in our case is phenominal, if I might brag!).

Regarding one salesman in a group of many in the company, the personell may vary widely! From seasoned salespeople, to upstart "rookies", you are apt to encounter many levels of salesmanship.

Sometimes, we on the sales floor spend all too much time trying to "sell" the customer on a given brand or model of acoustic piano and forget to tell them about us as a company!

In the case of well-established and reputable dealers, they have a leg up on the smaller and possibly newer establishments in the community! Often times customers will shop the old established companys first, then venture to some of the smaller and lesser-known piano shops to test their waters!

Some salespeople feel they need to sell the customer a piano during the very first floor call! They might even feel that once the customer leaves to continue their search that they will never see the customer again! This is when that salesman begins the "high pressure" that so many read about (in order to secure the sale during the initial visit)!

However, my philosopy is to make sure the customer is comfortable with the salesperson, he or she knows about and respects the company, likes the brands from which to choose and feels the pianos are properly prepped for the sales floor! Then, and ONLY then, is when you begin to discuss the possibility of them considering the investment of one of your pianos!

So, if you're in the market for a fine piano, don't be afraid to ask questions of any sort! After all, you are making a major investment and the sale is only the first step in a long term relationship with that company!

Happy holidays everyone!

Paul

Whippen Boy
Merry Christmas. I honestly don't mind people who just like to check out pianos on a regular basis. I even call some of them when I get in something I think they will find interesting.
Sometimes these muscians can't afford what they really like. I know they can't buy, but they just might refer someone who can.

I like to play some Schubert: his bass textures can be quite thick, and I like to see how the piano sorts out all the overtones - does the harmony come through clearly, or is it all a bit diffuse?

Brahms can be a similar test, but here the textures are even more widely spaced, so how one pedals and how those low notes sustain becomes a key issue.