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#968581 - 05/16/07 02:33 PM Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Greetings everyone:

I am contemplating picking up a major piece (for me), and Liebestraum #3 is high on my priority list (the the other possibility being Chopin's 10/12, which may be beyond my technical ability for a while, at least at proper speed - but I would be game on the study group for that too).


Anybody wish to jump in?

-- I will edit my first post to reference info that is essential to the study group in general --

scores (public domain) are here:
http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=645
(thanx for the reference, LarryP)
and here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search&search=liebestraum

I put (temporarily for the benefit of this group only - to minimize possible copyright infringement) a rendition of the piece by Claudio Arrau here:

http://www.box.net/shared/af6fycurqg

My brief analysis of the score and action plan is here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/4368.html#000005

-----

So far the group consists of

hopinmad
kawaigirl1
LarryP
Lisztener
tvpiano
YD
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968582 - 05/16/07 02:45 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
I am a big fan of this piece, and would also be keen to learn it. However, I have two problems:

1) There seem to be a couple of *really* tough sections which may be far beyond my ability.
2) I'm not very good with the 'study group' idea - so far my track record is joined-3, quit-3!

But I would be willing to give it a shot!

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#968583 - 05/16/07 02:47 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
I downloaded the sheet music....I will give it a try.
Here is the link; http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=645

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#968584 - 05/16/07 02:58 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
I'm open to trying this. It doesn't look that hard, but the cadenzas might be a little tricky.

I prefer the IMSLP score.

It doesn't have that fake-machine look, but it still shows the melody.
_________________________
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#968585 - 05/16/07 03:09 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: difficulty of this.

I have heard something like 10 different versions played by famous pianists. Indeed, on much of them the cadenzas sound impossible... ha ha ha

However, I also own a recording that IMHO is one of (if not THE) most beautiful renditions of the Liebestraum by Claudio Arrau, and he plays cadenzas, hm, rather slow. I think it is not much of a copyright infringement if I let you listen to just one song of an old CD that is not available for sale anymore:

http://www.box.net/shared/v7glj52l1y

In fact, the difficult parts for me are in the middle (the jumps), because of my right hand that is, hm, not quite right :-)
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968586 - 05/16/07 03:55 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Wow, 4 of us so far (in less than 1/2 hour)!

Here is a brief analysis of the score:

It consists of the following parts:

I (measures 1-22) Introduction and development of the melody
II (measures 22-24) first cadenza
III (measures 25-35) Correction (thanx, tvpiano!)[/b]Part 3 starts with B major then modulates to C major with the bridge of F9->G7->C with measures 35, 36, 37 respectively.
IV (measures 36-48) Key changes again to C major, this is where the most difficult part starts (big jumps at faster pace)
V (measures 49-56) Key back to A Flat, tempo to "appasionata assai", culminating in
VI (measures 57-58) second cadenza
VII (measures 59-82) final section reverts back to original tempo and is to be played "dolce armonioso" gradually slowing down for the last 15 mesures. Beautiful echo (part of melody?) makes this last portion absolutely ethereal.

So, suggested plan of action is:

1. Learn part I as an introduction of melody and harmony - 2 weeks
2. Learn part V as the most difficult part - 3 weeks
3. Learn part IV as the 2nd most difficult part - 4 weeks (it is longer that part V)
4. Learn part III - 2 weeks
5. Add two cadenzas - 2 weeks.
6. Learn final section (VII) - 3 weeks (it is simple but rather long)
7. Memorize (if didn't do it already), polish - 1 month.

Total: 5 months. Should be good for Fall recital :-)

Any suggestions/modifications?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968587 - 05/16/07 08:48 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Bach-in-a-Minuet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 35
Loc: Massachusetts
It's funny to have stumbled onto this thread- I have been working on this piece for about 1 yr, and am playing it in a recital at the end of the month! It has given me FITS throughout, but I think I've gotten it reasonably polished now (amateur-level, that is).
If by "cadenzas" you're referring to the "quasi-cadenzas" in my version, i.e.. the amazingly fast-paced sections that seem impossible to play.... yes, they are very hard, for me the second one was the hardest thing I've ever tried to learn on piano but I finally have it memorized! And no, it won't be at warp speed at this point, but at least I can hit it most of the time.
The section with the large leaps at fast pace is very hard too- just takes lots and lots and lots of practice. Ditto with part 3. Very tricky, even now.
This is my perspective, in any case... it will take tons of practice and it will test your patience, but ultimately if you're determined (and as stubborn as I am) you will get it!
Good luck to all

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#968588 - 05/16/07 08:58 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
I have been wanting to learn this piece for awhile now, and I think this is the perfect opportunity to join into this study group if I may.
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#968589 - 05/17/07 01:29 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I am totally delighted: I listened to your recital pieces, and judging by your playing, it should be quite doable for all of us - though definitely not a simple task, at least for me.

Euan Morrison, kawaigirl1, LarryP, playadom: Thank you for joining; I promise to try to support you as much as possible. The most help can come in form of suggestions from my teacher who is usually open to me suggesting new pieces (she was fine with my 5th Rhapsody, so I hope this one will be OK with her too - I'm meeting her on Saturday, will know for sure then).

I will try to keep the links to important information in my first post (will edit it frequently) - that way it will be easily accessible. I also asked C7Player to add our group to the pinned "Important information" thread - it is there already - thanx, C7Player! - so we may get some more exposure and new members that way.

I took a more detailed look at cadenzas; it looks like they are much simpler than they sound - it is all parallel movement, just like Hanon exercises :-) So it should be just mechanical memorization - not too technical. I will try to memorize the second (harder one) over the weekend - will post the result (even if it is embarasing) just so that we all have some idea of how difficult it really is.

Other then cadenzas, unless you suggest otherwise, I will start as planned, with section I (measures 1-22). In my estimate it should take about 2 weeks of daily practice with at least 1/2 hour devoted to it - YMMV (your mileage may vary). ETA (Estimated Time of Arrival) for it is, thereore approximately June 3rd (2 weekends from now).

I am really looking forward to it. Again, thanx everyone for joining, and, please spread the word, I am hoping for more of us to join in.
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968590 - 05/17/07 02:03 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
Fasten the seatbelts, 'cause this is going to be one bumpy ride!


I have two versions of the score - the regular, and also a simplified.
Is there any advantage to working on the basic version to get each section started quickly, then switching to the full version to complete it?

Or should I just use the full score on its own?

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#968591 - 05/17/07 10:27 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
I downloaded both. The ISMLP looks easier to read.

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#968592 - 05/17/07 10:55 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Euan:

Re: simplified versions.

I dunno. The only simplified version I've heard was that of Clayderman. IIRC (if I remember correctly), that was missing significant portions of the original.

My take on simplified versions is that I use them to sight read (badly, I must admit) new stuff. Like, I read a simplified version of Staadchen (correct spelling?) just to undestand the development of the melody.

On the other hand, knowing simplified version can be benefitial for performances as a possible fallback to recover from flubs...

The first part of Liebestraum (measures 1-22), however, looks simple enough so that I would just study that, and see how it goes... May I suggest that you play through the first 5 measures of the original before committing to a particulare way?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968593 - 05/17/07 11:00 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
Euan, I'm afraid that the simplified edition might be radically different in some ways, so if you learn that, it might hinder your progress. Of course, it might also be quite useful. You should sit down and compare the two.
_________________________
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#968594 - 05/17/07 11:13 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
Hi - thanks for the advice!

I just checked and indeed my simplified edition is in a different key! So it's been shelved as we speak.

Sitting down to the proper copy now!

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#968595 - 05/17/07 11:17 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: scores

ISMLP has 5 versions, of which I definitely prefer the last one (#05980), for, although it does not have melodic line highlighted (no big deal, as I've heard it so many times!), it 1) does have fingering, and 2) is only 4 pages, so it fits completely on my music deck (I taped the 4 pages together to form a very wide singe page).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968596 - 05/17/07 06:03 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
Hi everyone,

I know this is only day 1, and its a pessimistic attitude, but I'm sadly going to have to drop out of the group/challenge.

I appreciated the piece would be tough - but after really studying the score tonight, it's most definately miles beyond my abilities. I know for sure that those tricky sections would take me months, rather than weeks to learn. I just feel that my time would be better spent learning easier pieces which will take less time and are more nearer my level.

I am sure that when the time is right, I will look into playing Liebestraum, because it is certainly one of my favourite pieces.

I wish you all the best of luck, and look forward to hearing the finished results \:\)

Thanks to everyone,
Euan.

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#968597 - 05/17/07 07:51 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
LarryP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 105
Loc: West Chester, PA
Euan, I sympathize with you...I have looked it over and fiddled a bit....I am going to give it a go, altho my confidence is wavering, I gotta try for a couple of weeks. We'll see.

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#968598 - 05/17/07 09:37 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Euan:

I also sympathize with you; however there is nothing pessimistic about your attitude: we are all adults here and make our judgements as to where our efforts are best spent. So, you attitude is, in fact, quite commendable.

My attitude is actually quite optimistic: the piece is definitely difficult, and will take months to master. However, this is exactly the reason for the study group: to support each other in a difficult undertaking, and to have fun in the process!

If you visit this thread once in a while, you are welcome to listen to our laughable 1st attempts too: this way you'll know you made the right decision :-)
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968599 - 05/17/07 09:58 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
 Quote:
Fasten the seatbelts, 'cause this is going to be one bumpy ride!
:D One of my all-time favorite movies. Ha! Love it. Bette Davis was just fabulous.

...
"De Witt escorts Eve into the party, leaving Margo at the stairs drinking another martini. Getting more drunk [with alcoholic embalming fluid] and morbid, she prefers to hear only sad tunes on the piano as she sits on the piano bench next to the piano player. She insists that he play the same sad song, Liebestraum, for the fifth "straight time." Bill joins her and asks about viewing the body - a comment about the funeral atmosphere hanging over the supposedly 'happy birthday' party. Margo is depressed about her age (in contrast to Eve's youthful vitality) and has remained that way to spite Bill:

Bill: Many of your guests have been wondering when they may be permitted to view the body. Where has it been laid out?
Margo: It hasn't been laid out. We haven't finished with the embalming. As a matter of fact, you're looking at it - the remains of Margo Channing, sitting up. It is my last wish to be buried sitting up.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#968600 - 05/18/07 12:55 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Actually, in the movie it was "a bumpy night," at least that's how I remember it - am I wrong?
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968601 - 05/20/07 12:07 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
OK, time to deliver on my first promise here.

I spent the whole Saturday obsessed with 2nd cadenza. It really is not that bad, just mechanical memorization (the cadenza is mostly just a downward chromatic scale in two intervals, sixths and seconds, played with both hands). The result is here:

http://www.box.net/shared/v7glj52l1y

It is not quite up to tempo (and probably will never be up to tempo as played by some concert pianist - but I'll probably manage Arrau's speed), lacks any kind of dynamics etc, but the notes are, hopefully, right :-)

This is outside of the proposed learnign plan; I just did that as supposedly the hardest part of the piece in order to judge if this is at all reasonable.

I also tried playing through some other parts: I must tell you, this is a major undertaking! But, ultimately doable by any "intermediate" player.

Suggestion re: learning the cadenza. The first few hours were in vain. Then the light came on: use rhythmic pattern. I started making heavy accent on every 4th interval, and it just came together. I used pretty much indicated fingering except for the slow ending - there I just played whatever was convenient for me.

In the other part of cadenza (not chromatic scale) I had to divert to parallel play. Another few hours and I am almost there!

Potential new members: if you where ever scared to start working on this piece because you heard lightning fast cadenzas, and though you'd never manage them, please, listen to the Arrau rendition (link in the beginning of this thread) - it is much slower that usually played, but very beautiful.

This is fun!
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968602 - 05/20/07 09:00 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
Bach-in-a-Minuet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 35
Loc: Massachusetts
Yuri,
Excellent job on that 2nd cadenza! It took me MUCH longer to get it to that point, and even now I sometimes stumble.
You will master this piece much more quickly than I did. Looking forward to the rest! \:\)

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#968603 - 05/20/07 11:57 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Yuri,

I am always in awe with this piece, well this one kind of above my level, but I could not resist the temptation. I am in!
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968604 - 05/20/07 12:27 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Welcome, tvpiano!

The cool thing about this piece is that it can be played much slower than usual, and still sound beautiful, so, even if it is above your level, you can learn it, enjoy playing it at a slower tempo, and bring it up to speed as your level increases.

Today I am starting to work on the first section, as planned (measures 1-22). I now see that it has some problematic jumps that need to be mastered :-) (towards the end). Will post progress reports (at least weekly, but maybe more often).
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968605 - 05/20/07 03:30 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Thank you Yuri, how do you approach the first section, each hand separately first?
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tvpiano

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#968606 - 05/20/07 03:56 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I always do this:

1. Play through very slowly with both hand once so that you see where hands collide.

2. Study hands separately until you can play reasonably well, and then

3. Join hands together and bring up tp tempo.

BTW, there seem to be some places in part one when hands separation is not quite clear: I seem to play with left hand where right is indicated in the score and vice versa - I'll comment on this later when it is more clear to me.

BTW2, the left hand is rather thin here, so stage (2) above basically means practicing right hand only...
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968607 - 05/20/07 11:00 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
The last C note of the melody (middle voice) of measure #2, I am not sure should it be played with RH or LH? thanks
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968608 - 05/20/07 11:44 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
tvpiano:

I play it with left, with right it is much more difficult as it needs to be separated (louder) than the simultaneous Bb.

Here is a bried description of my fingering/hand separation (I tend to avoid jumps where they are not absolutely necessary):

I play the first 6 measures as indicated in the score, and then, in measure 7 I play C with right hand (to avoid a jump of left from Ab to C).

Then again as indicated in measures 7,8, then in measure 9 I play last Eb with 1st finger instead of indicated 2nd and in measure 10, again to avoid jump, play first melodic F with 2nd finger of right hand (as opposite from indicated jump of left hand from Bb to F).

Then as indicated up to measure 13, where I play first melodic Ab with 1st finger of RH (again avoiding jump). Same story with first C of measure 15, and then the jumps become unavoidable :-( , so the rest I play as indicated.

Hope this helps,
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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#968609 - 05/21/07 12:00 AM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
tvpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Austin, TX
Yuri, it does help a lot, I got a pencil and taking note right in the sheet music. Thanks.
_________________________
tvpiano

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#968610 - 05/21/07 08:54 PM Re: Study group: Liebestraum #3 (Liszt)
YD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 590
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Greetings:

As my initial enthusiasm seems to still be present, here is my first take on the part I, measures 1-22. The problematic sports are jumps (however small they are)m the rest is pretty straightforward. Will take looonnngggg time to get this to performance level (tempo and dynamics)...

http://www.box.net/shared/y3anr39ln1

Kind regards, everyone,
_________________________
Yuri
FWIW; YMMV

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