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#657933 - 09/22/06 10:35 PM yamaha cp300=overpriced
trogdor Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/21/06
Posts: 3
Loc: New York, NY
As far as I can tell, all you get for your extra $1000 over the cp33 is string resonance and some crummy speakers. You could do alot with the extra cash, ie:

cp33, free shipping $1215 (bhphotovideo)
akoustik/ivory $280
laptop for akoustik $400 @best buy or cc sale
behringer studiomonitors$280 @zzounds
behringer usb audio out $60
ram for laptop $60

Total $2295

This rig is 4% more than the cp300 alone, and sounds way more like a piano than the cp300. Plus you get some good speakers and a laptop which can record and playback your music. Granted, I would rather lug around a cp300 than a cp33 and all that stuff, but for many users it's not much of an issue if the piano doesnt move too frequently.

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#657934 - 09/23/06 07:13 AM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
NobodyImportant Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 11
That's interesting.

Is it true that the CP33 has the same keys as the CP300?

Suppose I'm interested in pursuing this strategy and using the piano as a MIDI controller only, with sounds and processing on a computer. Would it be possible to go even cheaper on the keyboard and still get one that's darn close to a real piano? (Even the $400 controllers claim to have excellent piano-like touch. I don't believe them).

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#657935 - 09/27/06 03:12 AM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
BonsoWonderDog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 44
As far as I can tell, all you get for your extra $1000 over the cp33 is string resonance and some crummy speakers.

BWD: The speakers are apparently quite good, and are meant to provide a more "real" experienced because of the vibration provided. Also on the CP300 is 128 polyphony compared to the CP33's 64, 50 voices + 480 XG voices + 12 drumkits compared to only 14 voices; A full 16 track sequencer compared to none, and oh yes, an extra 16kg in weight ;-)

You could do alot with the extra cash, ie:

cp33, free shipping $1215 (bhphotovideo)
akoustik/ivory $280

BWD : Can't be bothered at this point in time having to hook up a PC etc....and if Ivory is so good then I can hook it up to the CP300 later anyway......

laptop for akoustik $400 @best buy or cc sale
behringer studiomonitors$280 @zzounds

BWD: Don't need separate monitors on the CP300 - that's one of the benefits for me....

behringer usb audio out $60
ram for laptop $60

Total $2295

This rig is 4% more than the cp300 alone, and sounds way more like a piano than the cp300.

BWD : That's a very subjective thing I'm sure...

Plus you get some good speakers and a laptop which can record and playback your music. Granted, I would rather lug around a cp300 than a cp33 and all that stuff, but for many users it's not much of an issue if the piano doesnt move too frequently.

BWD : I get your point though, and it's valid. My point is that having an all-in-one solution without all the cables, computers and software bugs is appealing to some people (me).

I'm also trying to justify my purchase of a CP300 yesterday (hasn't been delivered yet)

:-)


BonsoWonderDog

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#657936 - 09/27/06 06:41 AM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
Laurens Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 193
Loc: The Netherland
Would the CP33 be the best solution if you would go the Laptop/Ivory route ?

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#657937 - 09/27/06 08:05 AM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
BonsoWonderDog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 44
 Quote:
Originally posted by Laurens:
Would the CP33 be the best solution if you would go the Laptop/Ivory route ? [/b]
Speaking from ignorance, I assume that it doesn't matter a rat's arse what you get if you're going to use Ivory et al, as long as it has:

(a) action you like
(b) midi in/out etc

If I was going down that route then I think the CP33 would be too expensive also....why pay for piano samples that you already have?

I'd find the cheapest nastiest 88 key with an action that I liked and midi. I'm sure that would be very cheap.


Damian (BWD)

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#657938 - 09/27/06 08:52 PM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
puff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 222
Loc: oxford UK
It seems that the best 88 note(or now available 76 note version)controller for piano feel could be the Studiologic VMK 188 plus. This had a good review in Keyboard mag coupled with Ivory (it even comes withan Ivory template) It has a new graded action withsome kind of escapement feel.

BTW If youre thinking of getting one make sure it comes with the new black end cheeks.Its been re-designed to be more rugged.

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#657939 - 09/28/06 09:28 AM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
cb750k7 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 11
Another issue with Ivory, or any software synth, is latency. The best I can get with my computer setup is 6ms, which is fairly good. But I can still notice the lag and it just doesn't feel right. Unless you can get close to zero latency, I don't see the practicality of software synths for serious piano practice/playing.

I went with the CP300 because I wanted the all-in-one solution. And more importantly, my wife wouldn't let me keep all that extra stuff hooked up to a CP33 in our living room.

The fact that I payed $1799 for a 2 week old floor model at Guitar Center made the decision a little easier. 8-)

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#657940 - 09/28/06 10:26 AM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
RandomThoughts Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 106
Loc: Canada
Heh, I'm reasonably sure that a $400 laptop won't run Akoustik Piano very well.

And even though I've got a computer set up with AP and The Grand on my P250 - well, 9.9/10 times, I just turn on the piano to play.

There's something to be said about not waiting for a computer to boot and samples to load.

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#657941 - 09/28/06 02:30 PM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
yiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 175
Loc: jerusalem
Speaking about overprice, the CP300 is coming soon to Israel. The price of the P140 here is over $2000! So the CP300 will be something like $4000!!!
It's more economical to order it from the states and pay expensive shipping (about $500) and heavy taxes! That will only end up at about $2800.
I asked the dealer to let me know what am I actually paying for, and why in the world should I buy it from them if it costs less to import it myself. His reply was “statistically it is possible that some models are defected. We give warranty and repair service. You will be stuck if you order from overseas”. I think it’s insane. The Kawai and Roland prices are much more reasonable. A different company imports them.
_________________________
Yiss

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#657942 - 09/28/06 07:44 PM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
yiss, [/b]Welcome to Supply and Demand, as that concept actually operates in the marketplace;-) On the bright side, knowing that retail prices are similar in other markets tells you that wholesale prices probably are, too. That means that there could be room for negotiating.

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#657943 - 09/28/06 07:51 PM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
BonsoWonderDog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 44
 Quote:
Originally posted by cb750k7:
And more importantly, my wife wouldn't let me keep all that extra stuff hooked up to a CP33 in our living room. [/b]
Hahaha....me too !!

Damian

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#657944 - 09/28/06 07:57 PM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
BonsoWonderDog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 44
I paid the equivalent of about USD$2200, which I guess is worse than USA but better than Israel.

Damian

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#657945 - 09/28/06 08:19 PM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
johnny boy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 357
Loc: seattle
$400 laptop will NOT run Akoustik Piano. You will need more like a $1000 laptop (most of those $500 laptop comes with 256/512 MB of memory and 4200 RPM drives. You will need 1 GB of memory (if dedicated to run only the piano. More like 2 GB, if it is your dual purpose computer) and 7200 RPM (5400 might work) HD to run Akoustik piano without any pop or crackles. For Ivory, for sure you would need 7200 RPM and 2 GB of memory).

As mentioned, you could just get a MIDI controller with no sound. A nice MIDI controller with good hammer action (VMK188 Plus that has been mentioned here) cost about $900.

I get 2 ms latency on my laptop and my desktop playing Synthogy Ivory and Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano. It feels just like I am playing hardware digital piano. The key is that you will need a good pro level sound card with great driver support. I am running Echo Indigo on my laptop and M-Audio 2496 on my desktop. I get 2 ms on both machines.

So....

Hammer action keyboard - $900
Laptop - $1000
Soundcard - $150 (you need ASIO support to play in real time. I don't think the behringer usb audio out has ASIO support)
Akoustik/Ivory Piano - $280.
Studio monitors - $200

Total $2530

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#657946 - 09/28/06 08:40 PM Re: yamaha cp300=overpriced
setchman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster.

This topic hits very close to home for me since I recently purchased a CP33 after selling an S90ES. Yes, you read that correctly. Although I personally think the S90ES has the best sounding piano of ANY digital keyboard available right now, there were just enough little issues I had with it that caused me to want to make a switch.

In spite of the price difference between the CP33 and CP300, I don't believe the CP300 is overpriced. If you compare the specs you'll see that the CP300 still has a lot of additional features that the CP33 doesn't have. Whether or not it's worth the additional cost is strictly a matter of opinion and entirely dependant on what features you are looking for in a stage piano.

I took the money I had left over after selling the S90ES and purchasing the CP33 and purchased some additional music-related software and hardware and, most importantly, upgraded my computer to fully exploit the potential that Ivory has. I've owned it for a while now, and although it's mostly worked fine, I could tell that it was still taxing my system.

I can honestly say that I am far happier with my setup now than I was with just the S90ES as my only "real" piano sound, in spite of how much I loved its sound. Because my keyboard is in my office next to my computer, aestehics are not really an issue. Having built my own computer specifically to run music hardware/software has now made me slightly favor the software-based piano setup. Of course I reserve the right to change my mind when the next round of digital pianos hit the market ;\) .

I can tell you from experience that RandomThoughts was right. A $400 laptop will never run Akoustik/Ivory well. Still, the gist of the original topic is not at all unrealistic. With the right computer and a decent digital piano/MIDI controller you can certainly put together a software-based piano that is every bit as good in terms of sound, as any traditional digital piano. And in my case, at least for now, I am happier with my computer-based setup than with any digital piano that I could play and reasonably afford.

Eric
_________________________
Kawai K-3
Yamha Motif XS8
BlackGrand.com

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