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#661282 - 09/18/08 12:52 PM One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
I have normal Ivory (Bsendorfer, Steinway, Yamaha), Ivory Italian, 4front True Pianos, and Pianoteq.

I am sorry, but i just dont get why people- classical Pianists- even have these discussions. For me there is one market leader that is MILES ahead of the competition and of course it is Pianoteq 2.3 ("S. Erard" preset)!!!

I mean, with sampled libraries (Ivory) you can press and hold the sustain pedal RIGHT THROUGH the entire piece - there is hardly any muddiness at all! What kind of a piano is that?!
The other huge problem is that with both Ivories I can clearly feel how different finger touches trigger identical dynamic layers - it is so artificial and step-like!!! It is especially annoying when you play piano/pianissimo- feels like you are playing on a £20 toy keyboard!
Generally, the piano does not live and breathe in Ivories - it is DEAD and feels like a toy (cheap toy when playing pianissimo; expensive toy when playing loud).

Pianoteq 2.2 - was much better: more alive, infinitely more responsive (full midi range of 127 layers), with real resonance and trully functioning pedal. I downloaded the "Modern Bright Piano" settings file from Pianoteq's own forum and it was fun. But, after hearing all the talk about it's lacking in Bass Clef I was quite happy with the bass, but felt that upper 3 octaves were noticeably artificial - there was far too much "glare" in them.

Pinoteq 2.3 Errard preset has solved that - and in my experience is by very far the best available option for a digital Pianist - the bass is resonating and crisp/punchy and the upper octaves have brilliance/crispness in just the right measure...

And, unlike in sampled pianos, the 5 simultaneously pressed notes do not sound like they were simultaneously pressed in 5 different pianos, but all interact and add to each other. So much scope for pedalling and touché, interpretation and immersiveness... And, from Pianoteq 2.3 (erard) onwards not only this results in best FEELING software piano, but also in best sounding - the way it portrays the complexity of music/its interpretation sounds terrific, really does!!

How can a PIANIST (one who knows that playing piano doesnt involve just pressing the right buttons at the right time) ignore all this and choose Ivory or some other sampled library is beyond me!..

True pianos - i only tried their trial version and didnt like it at all - the sound was very toyish.

PS My hardware is: Audiophile 192 PCI sound card, CoreDuo processor, separate internal hard drive for Ivories, 2 GB ram, Roland FP4 piano, Sennheiser HD580 headphones (occasionally with Meier Corda Move Amp)

PPS I'll just add that Ivories are better sounding then the stock sounds of Roland FP4, but roland's sounds are less step like, more playable. Pianoteq sounds AND plays in different league to Roland's inbuilt soft. And yes, once agian , Pianoteq Errard is better sounding still when compared to Ivories too.
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661283 - 09/18/08 02:57 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Strat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 580
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Wow! Well, excuse me for having a different opinion than the master of all that is piano, Mister ere who clearly is better than us all!

You're so full of yourself that I wonder how you manage to fit your head through a door frame.

Listen : tastes can't be debated. I find Pianoteq to be a good idea, but nothing more. Its sounds are grating to my ear and sound muddy and undefined. But that's me. I fully respect whoever has a different opinion than I and if somebody prefers Pianoteq to Ivory or any other sample library, that's perfectly OK by me. If everybody liked the same things, life would be boring & predictable.

Ivory is, IMHO, up to now, the best that I have heard. It has an organic sound quality that I can't find elsewhere... yet. I'm seriously thinking in purchasing Quantum Leap Pianos, but until then, Ivory is king.

Snobery & arrogance aren't traits that I find very appealing in people. It shows their close-mindedness and you're absolute proof of that. I'd suggest developing a respect for other people's opinions and taking care of this superiority complex you seem to have.

Enjoy Pianoteq, but belittling others who might enjoy a different product is shameful bulletin board behavior.
_________________________
Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p

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#661284 - 09/18/08 03:23 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Wow!
What a nice reply! great stuff from Mister Prat, sorry Strat;)

Obviously if you can write "IMHO", "IMO" and other cool 1eet internet words it really proves that you are far more humble with your views than another guy who doesn't use them.

Of course everything I said above is "IMHO", and is nothing but an honest opinion. You, on the other hand, dont need to be so (IMO)defensive about the $350 that you've spent, common.

Not to insult you or anything, but the fact that you started playing a year ago is probably why you dont YET see the glaring limitations of Ivory (i am grade 8/9).

Please try Pianoteq 2.3 with Errard preset after a few years of studying piano and you'll see my point. That point was not to belittle, but to share my enthusiasm and qualified opinion (I have experienced all these products in their full form at a length of time. AlsoI didn't say that I "simply" like/dislike a product, I gave constructive reasons and criticisms. ).
Oh, and through my system it is Ivory that sounds muddy ( well, relatively muddier), unless of course you used too much pedal or an older pianoteq's version.
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661285 - 09/18/08 03:51 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Strat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 580
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Nope, no sale.

The "it's just my opinion" comment would carry some weight if only you hadn't said stuff like "i just dont get why people- Pianists- even have these discussions." or "How can a PIANIST (one who DOESNT think that playing piano envolves just pressing the right buttons at the right time) ignore all this and choose Ivory or some other sampled library is beyond me!."

There's a difference between simply telling somebody your opinion and belittling everybody else who happens to not share your opinion. And that's exactly what you did with those statements.

And your argument about not being as experienced as you is laughable. I don't need to be a hockey player to know when one sucks, or to be a mechanic to tell you that a certain model is poorly-made, just like I don't need to be a grade 8 player to tell you that *my* ears say that Ivory is superior... to me!

Again, enjoy Pianoteq. But telling others that their opinion is inferior to yours isn't something I respect.
_________________________
Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p

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#661286 - 09/18/08 05:23 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
StrangeCat Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Minnesota
you are correct Pianoteq is way beyond all the sample pianos. The only problem is it's timbre which sounds fake. All other piano libs really don't have very good velocity steps, there is not enough of them and playing the piano sounds like your being held back. I felt this when I test out Ivory.
Also Pianteq has amazing pedaling detail that you just can't hear in other libs.
It's funny because I have spoken to Hugh Sung a lot about this.
Ivory sounds pretty good but it's no where near the expression of a real piano I can't play it at all for classical styles.

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#661287 - 09/18/08 08:12 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
my teacher (pro classical pianist) likes the sound of Ivory Italian Grand over others.

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#661288 - 09/18/08 08:42 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
@ StrangeCAt


Have you tried full version 2.3 with the modelled Errard grand? For me, one problem with pianoteq is that all the default presets (chamber c2, bright c1 etc, etc) are bland and boring+ truly a bit artificial.
The "Bright Modern Grand" custom JazzM1 grand sounded better apart from upper 3 octaves. The Errard sounds good everywhere - high and low. Its such a shame that it is only available in a full version, most people only have the c2/c1/m1 presets to form an impression of pianoteq in its demo form... \:\(

For me Pianoteq Errard sounds great: clearer, more realistic than Ivories... Overall. Ivory sounds like recording at times - even the better samples like Fazioli and Bosendorfer. What I'm trying to say is that neither software piano that i have tried is COMPLETELY believable at ALL times. At some instances Ivory sounds like recording (of several pianos playing at once), at others synthetic nature of Pianoteq will poke through and show itself... But overall, on balance, Pianoteq has more believable sound while you play.

This may of course be because it has all the extra complexity in sound (sympathetic resonance, proper string resonance, proper sustain resonance) when compared to Ivories 12 descrete constant unchangeable levels per note... i dont know. But pianoteq Errard SOUNDS better (IMO, doh;) and that is the bottom line. The sustain pedal can "gather together" the bass notes and make them roar like thunder or growl like a wild beast (good luck getting that sound in sampled library:) etc, etc...

Oh, StrangeCat! Since you're in touch with Hugh Sung ,could you ask him to kindly share his pianoteq settings file (with me at least? \:\) I mean the .fxp file. The program is so infinitely tweakable and I am so infinitely lost in its tweaks... \:\( (I got to know about the whole software piano thing through his blog haha - THANKS, Hugh!)


@ Strat

I dont think your analogy with cars and hockey (Go Kovalev and Go Habs! ;\) is adequate. I'll suggest a different one: painting. Picture drawn with 12 different paints with almost non existent mixing and no cross shading (=sampled Ivories). I suppose one could copy Monet's "Poppy field" in such a style. But what impact will such picure have when compared with the original where red is mixed with yellow, blue, grey, green etc to achieve several shades of one colour red, and those shades of red in turn will also mix and overlap?..

If ivory is missing all those figurative shades of colour from its sound, HOW CAN IT sound believable as a piano, how can it sound good? it cant. Not when you "paint" in yellowish-red, bluish-red, yellowy-bluish-greyish-pinkish-red - and it is still red as far as ivory is concerned. It just doesnt have those shades in its sample banks.

Play something like "First Loss" by Schumann (1-2nd grade piece) on ivory and on pianoteq demo (download the free "Modern Bright Piano" .fxp from pianoteq's forum beforehand) and if you play expressively "with soul" using pedal carefully to "thicken colours" where you feel they should be thickened , you will see that Ivory cannot convey that expression in its sound, it can not sound good (relative to pianoteq). peace
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661289 - 09/18/08 09:27 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
StrangeCat Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Minnesota
what's funny is today I decided to buy EW new Piano lib after comparing it to everything. The Beehtoven example using different mics really makes it shine. I asked others if they thought this was a real recording and they said yes...so that's that.
I will be using EW piano lib to record classical piano cd LOL! awww technology!

Sorry man Hugh Sung doesn't even remember what he did for that pianoteq Fxp file. some overtones little brightness. Haven't talked to him in a while. I think if you just emailed him on his page he would respond he is a cool guy!

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#661290 - 09/19/08 06:37 AM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
fogwall Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Sweden
Hi Ere. We (Modartt) are glad you like the Erard preset this much. Just to let you know: the Erard preset is available also in the trial version as a "free add-on" preset.

Niclas Fogwall
Sales & support
Pianoteq
------------------
www.pianoteq.com
_________________________
www.fogwall.com

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#661291 - 09/19/08 09:39 AM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
@ StrangeCAt

@ Strat

I dont think your analogy with cars and hockey (Go Kovalev and Go Habs! ;\) is adequate. I'll suggest a different one: painting. Picture drawn with 12 different paints with almost non existent mixing and no cross shading (=sampled Ivories). I suppose one could copy Monet's "Poppy field" in such a style. But what impact will such picure have when compared with the original where red is mixed with yellow, blue, grey, green etc to achieve several shades of one colour red, and those shades of red in turn will also mix and overlap?..

If ivory is missing all those figurative shades of colour from its sound, HOW CAN IT sound believable as a piano, how can it sound good? it cant. Not when you "paint" in yellowish-red, bluish-red, yellowy-bluish-greyish-pinkish-red - and it is still red as far as ivory is concerned. It just doesnt have those shades in its sample banks. [/b]
To go with your picture analogy, one could also argue you are not using real paint, but painting with crayons instead - sure you can mix and layer them all you want, but the bottom line, is you are only approximating.

Did you ever see a real piano sound wave plot? Compare it to Pianoteq mathematical model. One is going to be full of nuances, sharp peaks and valleys - the other an average of those.

Sure - Pianoteq is more playable, because you have full dynamic range available to you. Same goes for sympathetic resonance and pedal use (pedal in Ivory is pretty much useless). But as far as sound - it will always sound more synthetic than sampled libraries.

At the moment there is a room for both of those approaches - otherwise Pianoteq would already be a monopoly.

I am an Ivory user, but enjoyed the Pianoteq demo as well, and plan on purchasing it in the near future - mainly because of improved pedaling.

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#661292 - 09/19/08 01:44 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
StrangeCat, Eternal and everybody - that is excellent news from Fogwall there! \:\)

YOU MUST try pianoteq with Errard preset!! ;\)

Just sit down with some Chopin nocturnes, and play them without any rush, listening to decaying overtones and ...feeling the music:) Its good! \:\)

@ Strangecat

Please report on your experience with the EW! After my experience with ivory I feel skepticism towards all sample libraries now... But maybe EW really did a "quantum leap", I don't know... \:\)

@ Eternal

Lets see what you think after you try pianoteq 2.3 Errard:)
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661293 - 09/19/08 02:12 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
cloudswimmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 42
LoL! Pretty bold post man considering you have guys like Pat Moraz and Rick Wakeman (both classical trained)still prefering Ivory for a VST instrument, as well as a lot of producers here in Hollywood.I have both Italian Grand and Pianoteq 2.2, and a real 1960 New York Steinway M.I prefer the Italian Grand for most of my bigger pieces like Hungarian Rhapsody, Rachmoninoff, etc., and Pianoteq for Bach, Clementi, etc.The Pianoteq period intruments are a lot of fun with Beethoven, but overall Pianoteq's midrange sounds like a Yamaha CP-70 electric grand to me.Whats changed in 2.3?I'll have to download the demo and try it out.Is there any issue running a full 2.2 version and 2.3 demo version on the same hard drive partition?

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#661294 - 09/19/08 02:17 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
ere - do you have a comparison recording of your preset?

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#661295 - 09/19/08 04:20 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
@ Eternal

I don't:) But thats not important because v2.3 Errard is meant to be PLAYED, not LISTENED ;\)

I remember reading in Hugh Sung's blog that he was fooled by listening to Ivory recording into thinking it was acoustic recording (that illusion was gone when he started actually playing it). It is how the piano sounds IN RESPONSE to your touche and pedaling is what counts. The connection between you and the sound. Otherwise you'll never know if the noise you hear was actually intended or meant...
Common, you have all the necessary gear, the download is 15Mb... You don't need my half-arsed attempt at Chopin for this at all:)

On a more serious note, my $150 sound card (Audiophile 192) does not have a "record from computer" feature. Hard to believe, but true. I bought it without much research on recommendation from this forum

@ Cloudswimmer

I don't know about recording piano for hollywood, I've never recoorded/ listened to recording of Pianoteq's Errard. What i know is that when it is ME at the keys, that's when its sounds make me forget about my Ivories. It's the headphone piano players instrument, not Hollywood producers' haha ;\)

What's changed since version 2.2? A fantastic preset "S.Errard" was introduced and the piano feel and sound became more believable still.

If your pianoteq 2.2 is a full version, then you'll be able to upgrade it for free. If not - get the demo. Dont know about installing it together with an old version, but why would you keep an older demo version?
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661296 - 09/19/08 04:40 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I love these pianoteq threads with pianoteq always coincidentally chiming in.

ere, we know you like this software piano, but more importantly, what does your Mum think?

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#661297 - 09/19/08 05:38 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
HAHAha, nice one ;\) [for those who do not know- my Mum is a conservatory grad]

She only spent about 15 minutes on it - I did not see her for a couple of months and she was in a rush when she finally came. She was planning to spend only 5 minutes though (to play one piece because of my nagging; ended up playing three hehe;)

She liked it!! "Its amazing what physics can do nowadays"- were her words. "wow, this can actually be played, totally different level"- after I swapped the headphone jack from roland to sound card.

I'll nag her some more to do a test and compare pianoteq Vs Ivory. If it wont happen next week though, then it wont happen for a couple of months - I'm going back to uni in 10 days.

As for pianoteq people - I think its cool, especially since they chimed in with good news (about errard being free now in the demo). What about the kawai people, huh? ;\)
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661298 - 09/19/08 07:03 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
When PianoTeq will be able to replicate the complex _sound_ and _timbre_ of a real piano it will be the best out there.

For now it is definitely the most playable, but also definitely is not best sounding. It sits well in mixes, but RECORDING anything classical with it just doesn't work. The sound IS artificial. There is still too many factors of a true piano that are not yet modelled.

EDIT: I mean, the quality of sound, not the completeness. PianoTeq is actually the only piano software in which I hear performed a piece as a whole and not as a bunch of single independent notes stacked in the right order. Even though, the overall sound quality is still far from real Steinway D, or Bosendorfer, or even Erard we are talking about here.

I can agree that PianoTeq has the best connection "feel" to it, but I can't yet live with PianoTeq only. I own Garritan Steinway too, which is a wonderful library for making recordings, but can't really stand it as a software for my live playing and practising. For that I still use my built-in Kawai sounds, which I really _feel_ under my fingers.

I hope for the best for PianoTeq, really. But please, don't push it that hard here - I am pretty sure everyone knows what they are talking about and what they like and what they don't. Just a 0.02 from me/ \:\)


M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#661299 - 09/19/08 08:05 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Ok, Mati and everybody...
Please stop talking about some generic "pianoteq" that you have tried at some point in your life and lets concentrate on the v2.3 Erard ;\)

Its 15 meg, the demo includes everything needed to work (soft side), and its really worth a try:)
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661300 - 09/19/08 08:22 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
I *am* talking about 2.3 version with Erard included. :-) Erard is definitely the best sounding piano preset for PianoTeq, and honestly - in many cases I couldn't tell it's pianoteq. But something really still isn't right with it for my taste. Extremely playable though.

I will post a recording in a while for all to hear.

EDIT: Here is a part of 1st mvt of Appassionata rendered using Erard in PianoTeq 2.3 trial. Some sounds are silent in trial version, therefore it may sound crazy sometimes. Hope you like it as a sample - it should demonstrate the dynamic range quite well.

There may be some occassional cracks as I forgot to adjust my ASIO settings.

http://private.maticomp.net/appassionata.mp3


Regards!
M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#661301 - 09/19/08 09:50 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
On a more serious note, my $150 sound card (Audiophile 192) does not have a "record from computer" feature. Hard to believe, but true. I bought it without much research on recommendation from this forum
[/b]
ere,

If you are talking about what I think you are talking about - rendering the sample via the VSTI in your DAW - this is not a function of the sound card, but rather the DAW. If your DAW is properly set up you should never have to render via the card only on the computer itself.

I ended up switching to Reaper instead of the limited edition of the DAW included in my Firebox and had no problems rendering the sound since.

Rich
_________________________

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#661302 - 09/20/08 10:41 AM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Mati,
Well you didn't do it any favours by recording in 128kbps mp3 ;\) Cant really expect to hear many decaying overtones and such lark on this stuff hehe
FLAC/ Monkey/ ALAC would be much better.

@ DragonPianoPlayer

I'm sorry, but you have me completely lost:( What is "DAW"? I use the free VSTI (i think that is what it is) Cantabile and to record it needs access to "Windows Recording Mixer"; if I try to select my soundcard there the whole thing crashes when I attempt to record.
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661303 - 09/20/08 11:23 AM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
ere,

DAW - Digital Audio Workstation software. Examples are Sonar (Cakewalk) and Cubase. Reaper is the one I use and here is the link http://www.reaper.fm/ I have both light versions on Sonar and Cubase and neither one is as easy to use as Reaper. A DAW allows multi track recording and editing in MIDI or audio format as well as real time playback of VST's and VSTi's.

Cantabile would be what you are using as a DAW. I'm not sure of how it functions or if it has all the features of a full DAW.

I had problems trying to get Cubase LE (which came with my Firebox) or the light version of Sonar I had with a previous MIDI interface to work the way I wanted it to. Basically, for a while I was outputing my VST to my audio card and then patching the outputs back to the inputs and recording what was coming in the line in from my audio card. Not the way you are supposed to do it and not good if I happened to create a feedback loop. Ouch.

Reaper is not that expensive and the trial version never expires (just has a nag screen when you start it up). With Reaper I can set up all the patches in the track lists and the audio can be saved directly on the computer instead of being sent to the windows mixer and back to the recorder.

You might also want to look for some postings by Mahlzeit. He has some guides for both Cantabile and Reaper that may be of use.

Rich
_________________________

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#661304 - 09/20/08 02:11 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
Mati,
Well you didn't do it any favours by recording in 128kbps mp3 ;\) Cant really expect to hear many decaying overtones and such lark on this stuff hehe
FLAC/ Monkey/ ALAC would be much better.
[/b]
It was late there and I was hoping to post something quickly \:\) I have all my classical music in FLAC files, even though I am sure in this particular rendering 128kbps is more than enough to like it or not. For anything more special one will have to try PianoTeq personally, I guess.

If you insist, when I come back home I will post another recording - clean, with proper ASIO settings, and in lossless format.


M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#661305 - 09/20/08 03:14 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
By the way, is there something I should set up in PianoTeq so that the lightest key press would not make any sound? In default setup on fresh instalation with Erard selected even the lightest press makes sound - which I was very surprised at, because I swear older trial versions of PianoTeq didn't have this problem.

There is a velocity curve graph, and the lightest key press I am talking about is near 0!

Also the sympathetic resonance seems to work worse than it did in older trials, because I hear literally NO difference between C pressed as an isolated note, and C played while silently holding other C's on the keyboard.

When I get back home I hope to investigate it further, because I remember PianoTeq did all these things wonderfuly, but it doesn't for me right now.

M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#661306 - 09/20/08 04:46 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
cloudswimmer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 42
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
@ Eternal

I don't:) But thats not important because v2.3 Errard is meant to be PLAYED, not LISTENED ;\)

I remember reading in Hugh Sung's blog that he was fooled by listening to Ivory recording into thinking it was acoustic recording (that illusion was gone when he started actually playing it). It is how the piano sounds IN RESPONSE to your touche and pedaling is what counts. The connection between you and the sound. Otherwise you'll never know if the noise you hear was actually intended or meant...
Common, you have all the necessary gear, the download is 15Mb... You don't need my half-arsed attempt at Chopin for this at all:)

On a more serious note, my $150 sound card (Audiophile 192) does not have a "record from computer" feature. Hard to believe, but true. I bought it without much research on recommendation from this forum

@ Cloudswimmer

I don't know about recording piano for hollywood, I've never recoorded/ listened to recording of Pianoteq's Errard. What i know is that when it is ME at the keys, that's when its sounds make me forget about my Ivories. It's the headphone piano players instrument, not Hollywood producers' haha ;\)

What's changed since version 2.2? A fantastic preset "S.Errard" was introduced and the piano feel and sound became more believable still.

If your pianoteq 2.2 is a full version, then you'll be able to upgrade it for free. If not - get the demo. Dont know about installing it together with an old version, but why would you keep an older demo version? [/b]
Ok now I have 2.3 and its still the same thing, midrange=synthetic, or at best Yamaha CP-70.The Erad is OK for a stock pre-set, but I've tweaked my own to MY liking better.Anyway to each his own.Very Subjective topic.Hey I've never played a Bosendorfer I liked except for the imperial at a NAMN show \:\)

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#661307 - 09/20/08 04:55 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Strat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 580
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by cloudswimmer:
Anyway to each his own.Very Subjective topic.[/b]
Exactly. Now, if the original poster would understand that there isn't a right or wrong answer when dealing with tastes,...

Pianoteq's always sounded synthetic to me. Love the idea and find it absolutely fantastic what they've accomplished so far, but right now, it doesn't even touch Ivory. But I have high hopes for the future.
_________________________
Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p

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#661308 - 09/20/08 05:42 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
I do, too. Erard is a huge leap forward towards real piano sound from their old presets. One more leap like that and it will be a very strong choice.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#661309 - 09/20/08 07:01 PM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Many thanks DragonPianoPlayer, Reaper works absolutely fantastic for me, no more crashing when attempting to record. I have pretty much given up on my sound card (as did some other people in other forums) but you saved the day:)Many-many thanks!

And so, i did a few recordings for myself and rendered several midi files with Erard and Ivory (Italian and Steinway). I will post comparative recordings tomorrow, but just want to say that I still think that for the biggest part Erard sounds better.

I played Chopin nocturnes, just like I did few years ago when I just "discovered them"- slowly, savouring every pedal press, every chord, every change in harmonics... I can not do that in Ivory - there isn't as much to savour- the decays, resonances, PEDAL, were wrong or missing. This was apparent when I listened to the comparative recordings, but the difference was especially glaring when I was actually playing.

Also I wouldn't say that Ivory always produces a realistic tone. Unlike Erard, it sounds like a recording A LOT. Which is fine when you listen to a recording made through Ivory, but not fine when you actually play your piano. Also, at some velocities occasional notes sound like an distinctive electric piano (I will try to isolate and record them tomorrow). The bass notes are much "tighter" on Erard at mezzo forte, and relatively recording-like "bloated" and "boomy" on ivory. Erard in general had tighter sound, apart from couple of pieces where a lot of fffortissimo exposed pianoteq, Ivory sounded more defined, textured and in control.

Mati,
It would be good if you rerecorded your music in flac, because 128kbps mp3 makes piano to loose clarity. Also, did you record the midi in Erard, or some other program? I would guess the later, because for a player of your ability there was a lot of muddy pedalling; it probably sounded good while you compensated in some (typical) pedal deficient piano soft, but not in pianoteq... If not- my apologies, I'm nowhere near the level of tackling Apassionata and you did a good job regardless \:\)

The lightest press triggering sound in pianoteq- I always had that, even in pianoteq 2.2. The sound is extremely faint ("pppp with soft pedal"-like), but it shouldn't be there at all, I agree. Maybe Fogwall will help us?
As for sympathetic resonance - I think i heard it when when playing nocturnes by your wonderful countryman, but I'll double check.

@ Cloudswimmer

You sound like a very picky person (with your Bosendorfer story, and not seeing any improvement in Erard ;\) \:\) But could you kindly share your .fxp setting file of your configured piano that you say you prefer to Erard? I'm geniunly interested. I know that pianoteq can be tweaked into guitar-like-Bechstein and into the opposite water-like-Bluthner...
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#661310 - 09/21/08 10:56 AM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Ere, no, the Appassionata is not mine \:\) I am not yet able to even think of tackling it.

It's a MIDI played by Frank Duepree, the winner of 2008 Minnesota Piano e-Competition, and it was recorded using Yamaha Disklavier CFIIIs concert grand piano. He played on the real thing, and adjusted his pedalling accordingly I guess. Because the instrument is much different from PianoTeq, the result in PianoTeq may not be as good as it was on CFIIIs.

Videos and MIDI files from that competition are at their official website: http://www.yamaha.com/ecompetition/ . I, of course, didn't want to infringe any copyright by posting the recording. I used because it is certainly better played than many MIDI files made entirely in the computer software.

I will try to post FLAC of some other pieces today.


Mateusz
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#661311 - 09/21/08 11:05 AM Re: One software piano to RULE THEM ALL!!! - the answer (mainly for playing classical)
Strat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 580
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
Also I wouldn't say that Ivory always produces a realistic tone. Unlike Erard, it sounds like a recording A LOT. [/b]
That's because it *is* a recording! :p

Pianoteq isn't sample-based. You could say that it sounds like a recording for every single sample-based software out there. That's the point!

 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
Mati,
It would be good if you rerecorded your music in flac, because 128kbps mp3 makes piano to loose clarity.[/b]
FLAC also colors the sound. The only thing that doesn't is WAV. Nevertheless, an MP3 at 256 kbps or greater is perfectly fine.
_________________________
Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p

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