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Page 17 of 17 < 1 2 ... 15 16 17
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#2284024 - 06/01/14 05:22 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Dear technicians. For me it is very important your opinion and your evaluation. Today I found this video on the network. It was 04.11. 2014. This is three weeks before my tuning two grand piano in a school
http://youtu.be/jLuhfKt5Kjg
Is there a positive dynamics of my corrections in my tuning? Or it does not was?
http://youtu.be/GdhCjtzJoRY
Regards,Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2285164 - 06/03/14 12:33 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1815
Loc: London, England
Max, could your spread in the unisons be a conscious or subconscious attempt to ameliorate the harsh tone quality of these pianos? Good unisons only serve to focus the harshness and hardness of the hammers but tuning poor unisons doesn't really solve the problem. It only disguises it while creating another.

While it is possible for a highly skilled pianist to produce a variety of more acceptable tone qualities even from these pianos, some tone regulation that keeps most of the attack but increases depth of tone and removes the hardness (clankiness) from the tone would make the pianists' work easier while retaining their ability to manipulate the tone quality as they play.

Well practiced as the pianists on your videos are, tone quality is not uppermost in their minds.

This is highly skilled work that can be practiced on old hammers before they are replaced or on a piano that is on its last legs anyway and could only be improved while gaining experience.

There are some single needle techniques mentioned recently that you could practice. Each hammer will be of uneven hardness so deal with only those hammers that are the loudest first after sanding all the hammers as close to the original shape as you can.
Practice on old spent uprights first so that you develop a good idea of what you are doing.

As you improve the tone, see how much you can also improve your unisons.

_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2285285 - 06/03/14 05:32 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
ALso, with a so hard tone, the ear get tired an "forget" to listen to the hard attack (unless you play very softly)

I agree the defects of voicing may be very apparent once the piano is tuned, . That is what help to voice efficiently, the harshness can be a little reduced by unison eventually but that is not worth the effort.

It is clearly hear that you have tried to even the tone. That mean that you gained some mastering of the lever manipulation, which is good.

I think that massaging the hammers with pliers could help to hear better what need to be voiced, because it will "close" the tone somehow and make the shoulders more supple.

Hardness will still be present but more sustained tone will show you the way.
Just try on one hammer on a too clear note for instance.
Pliers will at the same time free the crown and ad some resiliency to the shoulders (temporarely unfortunately)







Edited by Olek (06/03/14 10:17 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2285374 - 06/03/14 09:36 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
My dear teachers, Isaac & RXD.
I'm very happy for your complete answers. Hope this will help me continue my work. Today I will study ALL. Now a lot of work in the garden. I shall hard work in the vegetable beds to survive in future.
I will very carefully study your every word.
Regards Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2285987 - 06/05/14 08:27 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Max, could your spread in the unisons be a conscious or subconscious attempt to ameliorate the harsh tone quality of these pianos? Good unisons only serve to focus the harshness and hardness of the hammers but tuning poor unisons doesn't really solve the problem. It only disguises it while creating another.

While it is possible for a highly skilled pianist to produce a variety of more acceptable tone qualities even from these pianos, some tone regulation that keeps most of the attack but increases depth of tone and removes the hardness (clankiness) from the tone would make the pianists' work easier while retaining their ability to manipulate the tone quality as they play.

Well practiced as the pianists on your videos are, tone quality is not uppermost in their minds.

This is highly skilled work that can be practiced on old hammers before they are replaced or on a piano that is on its last legs anyway and could only be improved while gaining experience.

There are some single needle techniques mentioned recently that you could practice. Each hammer will be of uneven hardness so deal with only those hammers that are the loudest first after sanding all the hammers as close to the original shape as you can.
Practice on old spent uprights first so that you develop a good idea of what you are doing.

As you improve the tone, see how much you can also improve your unisons.


Good day,my dear,rxd.
Rather, I did it more than consciously. Should also be noted that at first I was taken aback and did not know how to act when I did found that grands . it's public playing was not enough time for me tuning before. Between two grand pianos had bad tones. I took a chance and made it's as soon as possible. I understand that you are all well noted many things about my tuning here.But I had still huge difficulties. Especially with " Petrof ", who refused to had good unison. I am very slowly builded each unison repeatedly checking and verifying hearing effect of their actions. City audience was satisfied with my sound , but I realize that this is not something that should be at the city concert. A sound must better .
Yes , the ladies pianist deserve better sound. And they did play a super class for these unsightly pianos , I think so. You correctly pointed out that I tried was only a " hidden flaws " but I could not make a good pitch ( Good unisons only serve to focus the harshness and hardness of the hammers but tuning poor unisons doesn't really solve the problem. It only disguises it while creating another). But I made a try it's
To improve the piano sound by improving the technical properties of the hammer , I shall read certainly about needles and grinding , etc. I have their own training , I 'll just make for junk on the piano , as you recommend ( that you develop a good idea of &#8203;&#8203;what you are doing and understand it's . )
Perhaps improve their own unison will help improve my whole tuning. I sure hope so .
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2285994 - 06/05/14 08:39 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
ALso, with a so hard tone, the ear get tired an "forget" to listen to the hard attack (unless you play very softly)

I agree the defects of voicing may be very apparent once the piano is tuned, . That is what help to voice efficiently, the harshness can be a little reduced by unison eventually but that is not worth the effort.

It is clearly hear that you have tried to even the tone. That mean that you gained some mastering of the lever manipulation, which is good.

I think that massaging the hammers with pliers could help to hear better what need to be voiced, because it will "close" the tone somehow and make the shoulders more supple.

Hardness will still be present but more sustained tone will show you the way.
Just try on one hammer on a too clear note for instance.
Pliers will at the same time free the crown and ad some resiliency to the shoulders (temporarely unfortunately)






I shall read ALL your german link. Thank your very much, Isaac. And I soon shall find this pliers as on pictures
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2308430 - 07/29/14 09:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Max has some confusion about this
Published the results of the International Music Competition "SILVER PASSAGE" 2013-2014.(International Arts Festival
Competition and Exhibition Project)
http://start-culture.com/results/passage-2013-2014

According to the results Mary Sidorovich is Laureate First degree. Instrumental Performance (Piano)
http://youtu.be/9uRD9oYM4IQ
http://youtu.be/lbIidg8wJmc
Then all tuners spoke: "the piano does not have the temperament." Max knows that does have some flaws and bad beats in the choruses. But why noble jury of music professors give Mary the highest score? Perhaps their charmed nor only Mary's manner of play but also Max's temperament of "Yamaha" . And what do you think about it?


Edited by Maximillyan (07/29/14 09:41 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2333202 - 10/02/14 01:05 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Sounds as Bach to "digit" or the upright piano is not the essence of this movie. One performer, different musical instruments, classical music. Tastes differ. The idea of the film to convey for a simple layman and professional musicians that music great genius survived the centuries. Bach is very much "alive", even if it is a digital piano "Yamaha"
I believe that it successfully managed Nastya. Nastya is very young girl pianist (Uralsk) is the holder of a silver medal awarded to her at Young Republican competition piano Kazakhstan. The contest was held in end March 2013 Pavlodar city
Upright piano "Rosler" on which plays Nastya most of "his life" was in a state of neglect. In the room where it was stored was damp, no heating more than 3 years. Max did everything I could. But can we talk about the quality of the temperament of this acustic piano?
http://youtu.be/y5B8xS_KtkA

Today: http://youtu.be/FenW9CbQTJk

It took about a year after the first tuning "Rosler." 1969. Max was invited again after 9 month. It's very much lost pitch. Especially tenor and bass range. I tried to fix it. I hope what myself made.
9 month past ago: http://youtu.be/y5B8xS_KtkA
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2333737 - 10/03/14 02:30 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
http://youtu.be/fWz1rD5ojpc
Today Max tuned soveit upright piano "Elegy". Before 14:02min. it's piano tuned out, after Max's temperament (where lady in red), A=435
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2336561 - 10/12/14 11:55 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Soviet upright piano "Rostov-Don" three years of Max's service
http://youtu.be/B67kZS2ZLNQ
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2347553 - 11/09/14 02:47 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Couple upright piano "Rönicsh" in children's choreography classrooms

Max makes tuning these old Czechoslovakian pianos always (about 10 years). A repairing hammers and different procedures. He tried to make their temperament now. Is it pianos acceptable for studying choreography?
http://youtu.be/WR_tYpGQCUE
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2356913 - 12/01/14 09:25 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
http://youtu.be/M_WTcOsxpqI
Max tries make to tuning the old Soviet piano standard (pitch) tuning A = 440Hz. Max is waiting for objective criticism professional tuners of our forum
Regards,
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2356929 - 12/01/14 10:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 740
Loc: England
Max do you know how to use either a muting strip or a rubber wedge to isolate individual strings ? I never see any evidence of you doing so in any of your videos.

Without knowing how to use them, you will never be able to tune to an acceptable standard.

You simply must tune one string first (muting all other strings of the note) then move on to tuning each other remaining string exactly to the first.

Let's start with one note .... say A440. Here's what you should do :

Using a rubber wedge.

Going from left to right let's call the 3 strings a,b,and c.
Insert the wedge between a and b so that only string c is sounding when the note is played. Now tune that one string to A440.

Next - remove the mute from between a and b. Now insert it between either a and the c string of the next note down, or between the c and the a string of the next note up. This will allow you to now hear 2 strings ... the first string that you have set to A440 and one of the remaining 3 strings of that complete note. Now tune that second string to exactly match the first string.

Lastly .... completely remove the mute. You will now have all three strings sounding .... two that have been tuned and one remaining that once again should be tuned exactly to match the two already tuned.

Without using some type of muting to isolate individual strings it is virtually impossible to achieve even a moderately acceptable result. I get the impression that you think unisons should be 'somewhere near' rather than perfectly matched ! Pianos should sound pure and perfect and not like other traditional regional instruments.I hope this makes sense to you ... I am only trying to help you in your quest to improve. Best wishes.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2356947 - 12/01/14 11:17 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Max do you know how to use either a muting strip or a rubber wedge to isolate individual strings ? I never see any evidence of you doing so in any of your videos.

Without knowing how to use them, you will never be able to tune to an acceptable standard.

You simply must tune one string first (muting all other strings of the note) then move on to tuning each other remaining string exactly to the first.

Let's start with one note .... say A440. Here's what you should do :

Using a rubber wedge.

Going from left to right let's call the 3 strings a,b,and c.
Insert the wedge between a and b so that only string c is sounding when the note is played. Now tune that one string to A440.

Next - remove the mute from between a and b. Now insert it between either a and the c string of the next note down, or between the c and the a string of the next note up. This will allow you to now hear 2 strings ... the first string that you have set to A440 and one of the remaining 3 strings of that complete note. Now tune that second string to exactly match the first string.

Lastly .... completely remove the mute. You will now have all three strings sounding .... two that have been tuned and one remaining that once again should be tuned exactly to match the two already tuned.

Without using some type of muting to isolate individual strings it is virtually impossible to achieve even a moderately acceptable result. I get the impression that you think unisons should be 'somewhere near' rather than perfectly matched ! Pianos should sound pure and perfect and not like other traditional regional instruments.I hope this makes sense to you ... I am only trying to help you in your quest to improve. Best wishes.


I'm understand you, Johnkie. You're right in many my clips do not have rubbers wedge. But I actively apply it now (here too). I am doing as you write for (ABC) strings. I check on chinese digital tuner, identifying inconsistencies and so forth.
For me it is very important - European vision of my tuning. If it is acceptable, I'll be happy. If "no", then will try again.
I must say that this particular piano 47 years had the wrong pitch, where A = G # . And I made up A440. Is not it listening in a clip?
Thank you very huge, Johnkie that expressed yours support for Max.
Sincerely yours, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2356948 - 12/01/14 11:21 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Max, you are posting for an objective truth from professional technicians. I will tell you what I think.

The unisons are very bad. Someone who tunes as much as you do and cares enough to reach out and look for ways to improve should not be tuning unisons at that low a level.

Here is a simple thing you can do to prove this to yourself how bad they are, and also help you tune treble unisons better.

Isolate and Improve. (We improve tunings, we don't make them perfect. The higher your sensitivity to unacceptable unisons followed by subsequent improvement, the better your unisons will be.)

1. Play a few unisons, say within an octave, one after the other. Identify one that sounds the worst.
- Use the comparison technique of comparing the trichord unison with the sound of a single string.
1. Identify a unison that may need to be improved.
2. Mute off two of the three strings.
3. Play the note. You are now listening to a single string.
4. Remove the mute.
5. Play the note now, which will be the three strings together.
6. Compare that sound to the sound of the three strings together.
7. If they sound exactly like the single string, then the trichord is as good as you can get it.
8. If you hear that the trichord unison has more shimmering or colour in it than the single string unison, it means the trichord unison is not as good as you can make it.

2. Take that one unison that you have identified could be improved, and mute the left string and play the note. You are now listening to the right two strings only.

3. Take that one unison and mute the right string and play the note. You are now listening to the left two strings only.

4. Which pair sound better?
- If the right two sound better, that means the left string could be improved. Remute the right string and retune the left two unisons by retuning the left most string. Remember, make them sound better, not perfect, just better. Remove the mute and listen for the improvement in the trichord unison.

- If the left two sound better, that means the right string could be improved. Remute the left string and retune the right two unisons by retuning the right most string. Remember, make them sound better, not perfect, just better. Remove the mute and listen for the improvement in the trichord unison.

- If both sound bad, or the same but not like a single string, then there is two possibilities:

1. The centre string could be improved. (i.e. the left and right are close to each other)
- Mute the right or the left string and retune the other right or left string until the sound improves.
Again, don't look for perfection.
- Remove the mute and listen for the improvement in the trichord unison.

2. Both unison pairs are bad. I.e. no two strings are very close to each other at all.
- Mute one side and retune the other pair.
Mute the other side and retune the other pair.
I.e. retune the trichord unison from scratch.

In this way, you improve the unisons and continue to improve your internal concept of what a good unison sounds like by producing better and better unisons to hear right in front of you. If you do not improve your internal concept of what a good unison sounds like, you will be doomed to continue to produce those inferior unisons for the rest of your life. Obviously you do not want to do that or you wouldn't be posting on PW.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2356958 - 12/01/14 11:32 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Another technique that works well with treble unisons.

1. Mute off the right two strings.

2. Play the note. (You are now listening to the left string unison)

3. Mute off the left and the right string.

4. Play the note. (You are now listening to the center string unison)

5. Mute off the left two strings.

6. Play the note. (You are now listening to the right string unison)

7. Do steps 1 to 6 a few more times. Each time, listen and compare the melodic pitch of each string with the others. Depending on your melodic pitch difference sensitivity, you may get the feeling that one or more strings are higher or lower than the others. Identify one string that could be improved and remember whether it sounded higher or lower than the others.

8. Remove the mute(s)

9. Place your hammer on the pin that belongs to the string you identified in step 7.

10. Remembering whether it was higher or lower from step 7, gently coax the string in the direction that would improve it. Often this does not require the pin foot to move.

11. Just improve the sound of the trichord unison. Do NOT try to prefect it or you will pass pure and end up on a wild goose chase, trying to get the perfect sound. Just improve the sound from where it started. As your ability to tell what needs improving gets better, your unisons will improve.

Please email me personally for more feedback. I do not check PW often.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2356963 - 12/01/14 11:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
In this way, you improve the unisons and continue to improve your internal concept of what a good unison sounds like by producing better and better unisons to hear right in front of you. If you do not improve your internal concept of what a good unison sounds like, you will be doomed to continue to produce those inferior unisons for the rest of your life.



Mark Cerisano,probably I am doomed to do only bad unisons for the rest of my life, alas
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2356971 - 12/01/14 11:57 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Mark Cerisano,probably I am doomed to do only bad unisons for the rest of my life, alas


You are not doomed to it. It is a choice you make.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2356973 - 12/01/14 12:02 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Max, use the techniques I posted. You will see.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2357254 - 12/02/14 12:46 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Max, use the techniques I posted. You will see.

Thanks, Mark.I will try to use your technique in practice the old upright piano
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2357935 - 12/03/14 11:41 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Just improve the sound from where it started. As your ability to tell what needs improving gets better, your unisons will improve.

Hi, Mark.
I did all the 11 points of your instructions for with treble unisons. As long as I have a bad result. I will try again.
Perhaps, slightly to overstate me octaves?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2357953 - 12/04/14 01:31 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Max,

Some translation problems I think.

Were you able to identify unisons that could be improved using the Isolate and Improve technique?

Were you able to hear small differences in pitch when listening to separate treble strings?

Then, were you able to improve on them?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2358091 - 12/04/14 09:45 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Hi Max,

Some translation problems I think.

Were you able to identify unisons that could be improved using the Isolate and Improve technique?

Were you able to hear small differences in pitch when listening to separate treble strings?

Then, were you able to improve on them?

Yes, I have problems with understanding. But I did separated a strings using a mute (right and left)
(Mute off the left two strings.3. Mute off the left and the right string.)
I look for good unison all 3 string after hammer's kick. Then I went on other key and I shall continue. I shall be again make yours testing tuning
Regards,
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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