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#2154115 - 09/19/13 11:40 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Thank you Gary for the kind words. If you ever are in the Seattle area please try to find the time to visit my shop. I would very much enjoy showing you my pianos.

It is difficult to innovate in such a mature industry such as the piano. But the mystery of what contributes to making an instrument with a great capacity for musical expression is one that intrigues me. When I was young and just starting piano work, I kept looking for some old guy who knew all the elements. I felt sure there had to be someone who understood the physics and engineering. When events evolved that staying in university was no longer necessary to avoid going to Vietnam-I dropped out thinking that "I'll get this piano thing figured out and then I will go back to finish my chemistry degree."

I never found that "old guy" until recently-I looked in the mirror and I was OLD! But I still don't have all the questions answered-and maybe don't even know all the best questions to ask! And I still don't have a degree.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2154322 - 09/20/13 10:05 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Ed...

Please...

Get this invention recorded properly. It will be worth it. We're all so excited to hear it. Pretty please?
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2196015 - 12/11/13 11:23 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
LeeSumner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 3
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yesterday a colleague and I were able to check out Ed's freshly remanufactured M&H BB (1970s vintage) which features his FTDS design. This instrument was purchased from Prossers in June of this year for a neighborhood high school performance venue. Prior to that it had received no reconditioning excepting hammer reshaping and periodic regulation. Given Ed's extensive handiwork,(new block, rescaled lower tenor and bass section(Mapes custom made strings with stainless steel wound tri-chords at the tenor/bass break), WNG shanks,Ronsen hammers, key rebalancing, reconfigured bridge thicknesses and other modifications best explained by Ed, I can't say to what extent the FTDS alone is responsible for its substantially improved clarity, power, and sustain in the last two octaves consistent with Ed's claims. I can say that in its unrestored state, from C5 up the treble displayed the problems Ed has enumerated as does the 1971 Mason A we're about to rebuild which has resisted conventional hammer mating/voicing and string leveling remedies. At the very least his FTDS which includes meticulous reshaping of the V-bar, height/alignment of agraffes and counterbearing angle adjustments has effectively eliminated any sizzles, snare drum/buzzes noises. In combination with optimizing strike point and his choice of Ronsen hammers, the tails of which he aggressively tapers to around 5 or 6 mm in the high treble (possible with WNG shanks) to lower mass, I suspect the FTDS contributes in large part to the greatly improved sustain, power, singing quality and color in the upper register. Over a range of dynamic levels the piano's tone was even, full-bodied and orchestral sounding without ever becoming strident even at fff. All in all a marvelous piano now. I will be visiting the music director at the H.S and may have more to report in a later post.
_________________________
Lee Sumner
Piano Technician & Sales Consultant, www.prosserpiano.com
Manager/Piano technician, Steinway Concert & Artist Department, Washington D.C. 1975-1976
M.M. Piano Performance, Catholic University of America 1985

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#2352210 - 11/19/14 08:17 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Ed, I hope this is the thread you asked us to revive.

I would like to ask about longitudinal modes and the reduction in energy loss mentioned in the quote below.

Two points: first, do you find that an increase in sustain tends to go hand in hand with a reduction in the sound level of longitudinal modes? Second, have you thought about the energy transfer mechanism at the capo bar, specifically at the surface of the string in contact with the bar where it has "machined" its groove?

Quote:
If I understand you correctly, you are attempting to clean up the tone by filtering out unwanted noise and prevent energy loss.

Below is a picture of an A.B.Chase upright in which they were after the same thing a hundred years ago. As you can see, the figuration is different than yours, but certainly accomplishes the same thing. Isn't the "wooden filter" below the metal rod do the same thing your trying to do. The tone on this upright is amazing by the way.

_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2352255 - 11/19/14 10:35 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Withindale,
Thanks for the questions. I think most of the increased sustain is due to more effective pivot termination-but I haven't tried to separate that out from changes in L-mode energy-and don't really see how I could.

As regards the capo bar-I have done work with temporary modifications to increase horizontal stiffness. I have also experimented with temporary attachment of damping material to it. Many capos are way too flexible out in the middle of the section and this increases hammer knock noise and "wobbles" the vibrating string. This increases the duplex hiss. I am working on a piano now that has a much stiffer V-bar horizontally so when completed that will provide more evidence.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2352279 - 11/19/14 11:54 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Ed
I was trying to test the hypothesis that a more effective pivot termination not only increases sustain but also reduces the amount of vibrational energy dissipated as L-mode sound at each reflection. That's based on the idea that a less effective termination will restrict the flow of longitudinal waves along the string, generating L-mode sound and noise.

Thanks for the tip about hammer knock noise and "wobbles" in the middle of a capo section, something to check.


Edited by Withindale (11/19/14 12:06 PM)
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2352545 - 11/19/14 11:02 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Withindale]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
L-mode can pass right over the V-bar. And since all three unison strings are ever so slightly unequal in speaking length and the same with the duplex rests-6 different fundamental L-modes can be carried by a unison. These frequency differences can create audible beats. Even though the frequency of the L-modes are above audible range.

The T-modes in the duplex unison can also beat with each other and when the L-mode beats meet the T-mode beats there is a whole lotta sizzling going on. Some of this noise is quite short lived as the L-modes are damped by the bridge. But when you add in capo flexing and bridge rocking another set of L-mode excitation sources start up.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2352678 - 11/20/14 08:23 AM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

On every trip to the soon to be closed basement at Steinway Hall in NY-I have seen C&A pianos with felt stuffed into the duplex behind the capo bar. They must be hearing something that they don't want ringing. You said you don't usually notice a problem when you remove the felts and if you do-tuning and voicing fixes it. Troublesome duplex noises are commonly known in the industry. That is the problem I solved.

Problem duplex noises can be reduced by tuning/phasing unison strings/needle voicing/hammer shaping-but these things just mask the problem. ..


My one NY-minute trip through that basement didn't reveal this but I don't doubt it. Have both seen (and used) these masking techniques in numerous pianos - C&A and others - over the years. The occasional confused look I'd get when explaining to client that "the little piece of felt you see is not a mistake - please do not remove" is still a fresh memory. Thanks for solving the problem.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2352759 - 11/20/14 12:17 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Is it possible to post the new link to the PTG article? The old one is broken.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2352762 - 11/20/14 12:23 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
havier Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
When events evolved that staying in university was no longer necessary to avoid going to Vietnam-I dropped out.....


Ed,
I wish you much success with your invention, but honestly, I was deeply saddened by your comment above.
I wish to take this precious moment to thank all of the Veterans who put their lives on the line for us to have the freedom to work on and enjoy the piano.

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#2352825 - 11/20/14 03:16 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: havier]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 902
Originally Posted By: havier
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
When events evolved that staying in university was no longer necessary to avoid going to Vietnam-I dropped out.....


Ed,
I wish you much success with your invention, but honestly, I was deeply saddened by your comment above.
I wish to take this precious moment to thank all of the Veterans who put their lives on the line for us to have the freedom to work on and enjoy the piano.


Ed was making a statement germane to the conversation, not espousing his personal beliefs.

Your comment has no place in a piano forum. Go to a political forum if you feel the need to discuss politics.

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#2352957 - 11/20/14 09:32 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: havier]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Perhaps you are having some trouble with reading comprehension if you come to the conclusion that I said anything in the post you referred to or in any other PW post I have ever made that denigrates U.S. military service.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2354067 - 11/23/14 08:58 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
For those who have doubts that longitudinal modes affect treble tone I have a very recent quote from Richard Dain of Hurstwood Studios regarding the bridge agraffes on the Phoenix Piano. The quote was provided by MiguelAngel07 who PM'd me citing what Mr. Dain recently communicated to him.

"Originally we used our bridge agraffes over the whole compass of the Phoenix piano's, but tests showed they encouraged longitudinal beat frequencies in the upper registers which some people found undesirable. We now use a pin bridge in these registers so the longitudinal frequencies are suppressed by friction of the string on the bridge top as in traditional pianos".
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2354441 - 11/24/14 10:24 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
It would be interesting to know how Dain quantified the appearance of the L modes up there. Do we have any info on this?

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2355189 - 11/26/14 06:12 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Jim, I do not know what Richard Dain did but maybe he compared the same strings in a piano, or a rig, first with bridge agraffes then pins. Frequency analysis and aural assessment could do the rest.

My hunch is that it is correct to say the bridge agraffes encouraged longitudinal beat frequencies, but I am not so sure the top of the bridge suppresses longitudinal frequencies.

The rationale is the agraffe presents more of a rigid termination to longitudinal waves and so reflects them. Pins do not offer much of an obstacle to longitudinal waves so they tend to carry on to be reflected at the hitch pin.

Please discuss.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2360755 - 12/11/14 10:26 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
I've just finished 2 pianos, both complete re-manufactures, both of which include the FTDS technology. A 6'-6" Chickering 123 (1908) and a 5'4" Chickering 135 (1923).

I figured I'd post some sound samples...keep in mind, I'm working the learning curve with the implementation of Ed's treble termination ideas. The 123 (6'6") was the first, and I struggled with the layout and plate grinding angles for the copolymer on the 123. I started to get more of the hang of setting up the duplex by the 2nd piano.

Knowing what I know now, the Chickering 123 was really not a good candidate for this technology, because the alto (1st treble section note 49-68) does not have a capo bar. This technlogy really requires the stiffness of a capo bar, and the 123's agraffes throughout this alto section are simply too flexible, in my opinion, to make effective use of the active duplex. The 2nd piano, the 135 has two true capo sections, so I think it was a better choice, regarding the FTDS.

Anyway, here are 2 sound samples from each piano...just straight up, me playing, one take, no messing with the sound file. I did fade out Summertime...uh...it kind of lost the thread, if you know what I mean, so I cut it short.

Chickering 123

Tenderly Jim Ialeggio Chickering 123 6'6"

Summertime Jim Ialeggio Chickering 123 6'6"

Chickering 135

some compass wide noodling and Pinky JIm Ialeggio Chick 135e n

Bach 2 part invention #5 dry-no sustain pedal Jim Ialeggio Chick 135
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2361038 - 12/12/14 05:37 PM Re: "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" Tech article coming March [Re: jim ialeggio]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Nice sounding pianos Jim! Like the tuning....and your noodling as well. smile

Both have a very even, singing sound.

What you are doing seems to enhance the tone, sustain, and overall bloom/sustain of both pianos!

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