Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#2053040 - 03/23/13 04:49 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
Ishkabibble Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 79
Loc: Edmonton
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
anotherscott: I have to agree. Speakers are (for now) the biggest limiting factor.

The keybeds are adequate. (But if not, get an AG.)
The tone generation is okay. (But if not, run a suitable piano library on a PC.)
The amplifiers are adequate. (But if not, just use an external amp.)

But the speakers just can't seem to pass muster, even good quality external units.

Doesn't someone have a solution?


I think that a least some external speakers "pass muster".

I think that digital pianos are made up of three major "systems" -- action, DAC, sound-amplification.

There is no need to re-invent the wheel when it comes to the action of the piano. Do what Yamaha does in their AG -- use a real grand action.

Present-day DAC is also, IMO, very good, but a final tube pre-amp in the DAC to create the line-level output just may improve (make even more realistic) that signal's ultimate potential a bit.

IMO, THE major shortcoming in modern-day digital pianos is their sound-amplification systems. I don't think that DP manufacturers should (necessarily, anyway) attempt to provide their customers with a solution to that "problem".

Remember the old, all-in-one "stereo systems" that were made in the 1950's and early 1960's? Most of them had a radio, turntable and amplification system all in one big, long box (some even had a TV in there).

Consumers soon turned to so-called "component" systems that had "separate" turntable, radio, amplifiers (or "receivers") and, finally, speakers. All of these things could be mixed and matched according to the taste of each customer.

Forcing customers to buy a "built in" sound system in a DP makes the DP much more expensive, bulky and heavy. I think the manufacturers should allow customers the option to decide that particular part of "the digital piano" for themselves, but if a customer wants a complete package, an all-in-one model should be available, too, as several already are.

IMO, something similar to the following is what's needed:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1982704/Re:%20Presto:%20From%20a%20Kawai%20MP10%20.html#Post1982704

Again, just as we do when we decide how we're going to reproduce the sound of a symphony orchestra or a pipe organ in our living space from the output of any digital or analog source, we customers should be allowed to decide for ourselves how to reproduce the sound of an acoustic grand piano from the output signal of the digital piano.

(Dear Kawai, please put your GF action in your next version of the MP10. Dear Yamaha, please market an AG WITHOUT the on-board sound system.)

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Special Financing on Digital Keyboards

Click Here


#2053048 - 03/23/13 05:20 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3825
Loc: North Carolina
I think the amplification systems are fine. It's hard to build a poor amp these days.
The speakers leave a LOT to be desired.
And the samples are worse. This is the weakest link right now.

Top
#2053063 - 03/23/13 05:51 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 806
Not so long ago I listened to a concert of a singer with band in which the pianist played a Nord (Stage, I think, or perhaps Piano). The PA and the speaker installation in the room (a medium sized venue that takes both classical and modern performances) made this sound brilliant (in an amplified context, that is), I was quite surprised. There were some solo passages of the piano with clear and transparent sound, and while these did not sound quite as a mic'ed acoustic (and even less as an acoustic without amplification), I was seriously impressed. But this experience was quite singular, all too often the piano sound with large speakers and PA's is quite ugly.

Was it the room? An excellent speaker setup? The art of the sound engineer? Probably a bit of all. The quality of input from the Nord was sufficient I'd say, and certainly not the bottleneck in the chain.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

Top
#2053069 - 03/23/13 05:58 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1694
Loc: Portugal
Do you know what speakers they were?
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

Top
#2053070 - 03/23/13 06:03 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 806
toddy, this is the venue:

http://www.centralstation-darmstadt.de/vermietung/saal.html

You can see a few speakers hanging in front of the stage. I believe there were more on stands when I listened. Unfortunately I did not check the speakers (was enjoying the music...).
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

Top
#2053071 - 03/23/13 06:06 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: toddy]
Dwscamel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 467
I think the sounds of software pianos are already excellent. If I find a DP action I love, that isn't limiting in any way, then the 'perfect' DP already exists. I don't even care about onboard sounds anymore, because I'll just change the sounds by running software anyway.

Top
#2053081 - 03/23/13 06:14 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: maurus]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1694
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: maurus
[I] was enjoying the music...).


smile

....well I see a suspended (wedge shaped?) speaker....could be EV.....well could be anything, actually! smile
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

Top
#2053327 - 03/24/13 08:09 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 503
Originally Posted By: MVshabeer2
When will we have a DP that can 100% replace the AP?

I think the action is solved by introduction of Avantgrands.
[But since it use a real AP action it costs as much as an AP (N3) which doesn't follow the motto of DP "A piano at every home".]

Regarding sound what is still missing? What is the bottle neck?

Compared to the growth of technology in other fields, DP's still in stone age.(IMHO)

Will a 2nd/3rd gen of Avantgrand or Vpiano will meet the needs(if any exists)?


Perhaps they are already "good enough" to "replace" most APs ?
In the "replace AP" sense they have been "good enough" to replace many/most APs for a few decades already.

Realistically I am not "replacing" a Steinway or Bosendorfer in my living room.
If it hadn't been for electronic imitations I may have bought an old Chickering, Story and Clark, or perhaps just not have had any "keyboard instrument".
Most of our parents/grandparents probably had generic uprights in the parlor, some may have been tuned/adjusted/regulated from time to time, others not.
From what I remember of my parents' upright - it had a worse action than my (now ~30 year old) Yamaha KX88 and poorer sound than the SGUs of the 1980s, even the FB01 (-:
The eternal search for a perfect concert grand (or several) in a box may be unrealistic.

We HAVE electronic instruments that we can make music on.
That they don't perfectly imitate instruments that we (MOST of us) would never find the money or physical space for seems irrelevant - lets just make music on what we DO have.

Top
#2053844 - 03/25/13 08:03 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3648
Loc: Northern England.
Perhaps DPs have to disassociate themselves from APs. They have come of age, methinks. There are many features on the AP which compromise it`s playability which the DP should be (but isn`t for marketing purposes)free from. Start with the action. It does not need, nor is it desireable to feel like any acoustic piano. Even the best are compromised by design and construct/ functionability constraints.

It would take a brave or stupid manufacturer . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2053855 - 03/25/13 08:18 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: peterws]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3588
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: peterws
Perhaps DPs have to disassociate themselves from APs. They have come of age, methinks. There are many features on the AP which compromise it`s playability which the DP should be (but isn`t for marketing purposes)free from. Start with the action. It does not need, nor is it desireable to feel like any acoustic piano. Even the best are compromised by design and construct/ functionability constraints.
.


Except that people actually want to play piano music on these things. The music that was written for piano is directly related to its action. Have you ever tried to play demanding piano music on an unweighted keyboard action? It's terrible. The action of the piano is a desirable thing to anyone who plays piano. You spend too much of your time trying to reason things in a vacuum. If you are any sort of player yourself, you shouldn't be dismissing the piano action as easily as you do. There's a reason the big DP manufacturers have put so much effort into the actions of their products. And it's not just some misguided need for approval. They are trying to make these things feel like real instruments. The action needs to feel mechanical in nature, it needs to respond to nuance and touch. A swinging hammer provides such feedback.

I understand your point from a sound generation/technology point of view, but your comments on the action side of things miss the point: the interface between the human being and the technology needs to be something that feels real and right. The pianistic action is a proven winner - there's no reason to ditch it. People like it - heck, they need it.

Top
#2054212 - 03/25/13 08:08 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: ando]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3648
Loc: Northern England.
I can see your points Ando. I`m not being dismissive; just putting forth suggestions and hypotheses. I`m not an accomplished pianist; more a piano-player. But I have found that some touch sensitive non weighted keyboards were superior to the weighted variety when it come to a speedy and intricate passage. Far superior.

And it set me thinking . . . people like the piano keyboard, I do myself. But one can soon adapt to a sprung action, as long as the keys aren`t short like they are on the portable keyboards they have now.. . . imo! The best I came across was on a digital organ with a piano setting which I was employed to play. The action was superb (should be; the organ cost as much as a house when first built) but the piano on it was total crap . . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2226071 - 02/04/14 11:26 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 503
Barely a year since this was asked and there have been comments in several places to the effect that the DP has already (functionally) replaced the upright.
DP is the new upright, etc.

So, who will have the last FILM camera ?
The last fountain pen ? (I think quills have already passed).
The last vacuum tube audio amp - oops, that one might strike a nerve (-:

Hassle factor (wet film processing, piano tuning, quill sharpening, microphonic tubes) just KILLS previous generations of xyz.
Some will cling, most will move on.

Top
#2226129 - 02/05/14 03:11 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: R_B]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 55
Who said the DP replaced the Upright? I have a 1920s August Förster upright with the most virtuous action and glass-bell tone who would make an elegant counter-argument to that.

Because real pianos require maintenance, there are technicians whose life's work has been historically devoted to them - and dozens of seemingly incidental adjustments can be made to expertly customise the action (and tone, but thats a different argument) to the individual player. This is not the case with a DP and even the most realistic action will be only ever be a hash of what is possible with a real action, until they can be customised as much by technicians as heartily obsessed.

Also, the point made that DP actions should move beyond the confines of the AP action design, forgets one important thing: The AP action evolved definitively to the way it is and then plateau'd - pretty much for >100 years - not because of a lack of technical advancements, for which there has been an exponential increase during this time, but because out of necessity its design found a symbiotic balance with the human expressive capacity. With just enough sensitivity so that you must concentrate and focus your intention to shape the tone, but also heavy with the potential for dramatic tempest - such dimensional dynamics, and no less, will give enough depth in which to plough the eternal spirit. This 'ideal' of an Action would be no different for a DP action, I don't think, since the artistry is still the goal (I hope).

Since the design had already moved beyond the simple mechanical requirements of the job in hand - that of percussing a string or three- and the specifics of how the AP went about this job could easily have developed in many other ways, I firmly believe that there is something inherently expressive about the current acoustic action design that is definitely worth striving for in DPs even in an era where the hammer does no longer need to truly percuss anything. It is still a percussion instrument in concept and as someone mentioned before, a lot of the literature was written with that in mind. But by all means we must also strive in parallel to create new original instruments, (eg. Seaboard) - just don't refer to them as the pianoforte.

Top
#2226170 - 02/05/14 06:50 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: Rappy]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3648
Loc: Northern England.
" With just enough sensitivity so that you must concentrate and focus your intention to shape the tone, but also heavy with the potential for dramatic tempest - such dimensional dynamics, and no less, will give enough depth in which to plough the eternal spirit."

Sounds like only top quality pianos will have this admirable feature, the raison d`etre for the instrument. Don`t believe that for a moment . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2226172 - 02/05/14 07:03 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: Rappy]
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 503
Originally Posted By: Rappy
Who said the DP replaced the Upright? I have a 1920s August Förster upright with the most virtuous action and glass-bell tone who would make an elegant counter-argument to that.


Clearly not YOUR upright, but to the "buying public" as a whole the sales volume of DPs has replaced uprights, indicating that the DP in the home is what the upright (in the home) used to be.
To the majority it is more attractive for all the reasons previously stated; reduced maintenance requirements, auto-accompaniment, headphone operation, lighter weight, not being the least of these.

There are still people raising and training carriage horses.
They have customers who are learning to "drive" with reins, etc., but for the VAST MAJORITY of us the horse has been FUNCTIONALLY replaced by the automobile and tractor.
Faster, lower "maintenance", cheaper, etc., but inorganic and those clinging to horses DO get other returns.

Ahh yes, I don't play it, but it is my understanding that aftertouch and music that exploits it have evolved together BEYOND the traditional piano action.
Maybe not the music that everyone likes, but another dimension is offered by the feature.

Top
#2226218 - 02/05/14 09:05 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
Psychonaut Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 234
Great thread! I enjoy the diversity and variety of perspectives shared here, and that's as it should be because playing a musical instrument is never a "one size fits all" proposition.

The bottom line IMHO is that one thing is never another thing. So a DP will never be "exactly" like an AP, which is fine. No matter how imitatively good the key action, tone generators, speakers, pedal functions etc., there will always be a different character to the coloration of the final output, because this output is being rendered via an entirely different process. Whether this difference in any individual instance (or on any particular level) is greater than the vast disparities that exist between different APs remains an open, subjective question, but also an academic one. From a musician's point of view, you can simply play the music you wish to play with the instrument on which you wish (or have available) to play it, and leave it to others to categorize it as "piano" or "electronica" or whatever. It just is what it is, and music will continue to evolve and change, reflecting the tools and styles of the day just as it always has. For better or worse, the DP (and the digital age in general) is at least in part a manifestation of closet-urbanization and a high-tech circumvention of traditional geographically defined architecture, providing a technological means to create music "out of the box" in an isolation chamber similar to the way cars, air conditioning or TV facilitated the creation of cultural spaces in isolation from the traditional village square.

Everyone is different. For me, a DP should function enough like an AP in terms of key feel and response that technical skills acquired should more or less "translate" to competency on an AP. This is a practical thing more than an aesthetic thing. In terms of sound, the DP should be able to allude to the sound of an AP in such a way that it's clear that it's traditional piano music that's being interpreted. Beyond that, it only needs to sound good in its own way and on its own terms, and sound good to me. If I want 100% AP authenticity, then I need to get a hold of an AP. There's no way, and never will be a way around that. Nor should there be.
_________________________
Yamaha P120, MO6, Steinberg MR816, Galaxy Vintage D, Komplete 8 & various other VIs, Reaper

Top
#2226681 - 02/05/14 11:38 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: peterws]
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1743
Originally Posted By: peterws
...I have found that some touch sensitive non weighted keyboards were superior to the weighted variety when it come to a speedy and intricate passage. Far superior.

peterws, do you have examples of such non weighted keyboards that are currently on the market? I am genuinely interested, i.e. this is NOT a trick question.
_________________________
I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Search over 900'000 music title here!
by sheet
10/01/14 09:11 PM
What to look for in a keyboard
by Tikki56
10/01/14 06:30 PM
Christmas duets for Student and Teacher
by Purpl3keys
10/01/14 06:24 PM
The Steinway S in 1936
by Rich Galassini
10/01/14 06:21 PM
Yamaha CP5
by Synner
10/01/14 05:43 PM
Who's Online
128 registered (A Guy, accordeur, ajames, ando, 43 invisible), 1362 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76396 Members
42 Forums
157934 Topics
2319405 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission