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#2039939 - 02/27/13 01:08 AM Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada)
two2the8 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 24
Hi all,

I'm in Canada & looking to buy a DP. Right now I can't find anywhere (literally, nowhere) that sells the px-850 in Canada. I assume it hasn't been released here yet. Just this week, though the px-750 has come available, for the same price advertised on American sites.

I'm perhaps more interested in the 850, but I'd like to get something fairly soon, and I'd prefer not to have to pay shipping & border fees to get one sent here from the US. So I guess I have two questions:

1/ Anyone have any idea when the 850 can be expected to show up here?

2/ To anyone who's played them both, are the differences between the 750 & 850 dramatic? I understand there are a few more features to the 850 (sympathetic resonance, lid simulator, 256 poly, bigger speakers). I will mostly use this piano for composing and practicing basic jazz comping, probably most of the time with headphones. If I pulled the trigger now on the 750, would I be missing out?

Thanks so much y'all. This is a really great & informative forum for newbs like me!

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#2039950 - 02/27/13 01:56 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1540
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Have you searched this Forum for "px-850" ? I think there have been recent threads.

And I remember one of those threads complaining that Casio had changed its distribution channel for the PX-850 -- that it would be available only from "piano dealers", not through online channels.

. Charles

PS -- you also might try the Casio website:

CasioMusicForums.com

PPS -- it's likely that Mike Martin, a Casio rep, will weigh in in the next few hours.

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#2040110 - 02/27/13 11:59 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
two2the8 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 24
Thanks Charles!

I have searched the forums here and found lots of great info on the PX-850, but I'm still curious about users' experiences with the 750 and 850 in particular. (Also, as a side note, I find the search on the forums here are a bit of a drag – the results don't show up with any dates for posts, so you end up with quite a mish-mash of results).

I certainly didn't find anything about expected dates for canadian distribution, though that link you sent along did have a bit of a clue from Mike Martin about the AP-650, suggesting that it might be available soon.

Hoping to get a bit more info before making a purchase, but if not, I expect I'll be happy enough with the 750 anyway!

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#2040255 - 02/27/13 03:48 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 855
Loc: Lakewood, CA
I don't know the specific answer to the PX-850 availability in Canada. Not sure if they are going to a piano dealer distribution on this model. It doesn't seem that they are here in the U.S. Seems to be available at the normal retail outlets. It appears they are going to a piano dealer on the AP-650 Celviano. As far as the features, the 850 would have the same samples and keybed as the 750. But it does also have double the poly, a lid simulator, beefed up amp and speakers, and the USB recording. The PX-750 is really a PX-150 with a different speaker system and comes with the stand and pedal bar. Probably about the same cost as the PX-150 and ordering the stand and pedal bar as options.

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#2040748 - 02/28/13 12:28 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
two2the8 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 24
Thanks, that's helpful too. I called a retailer here and discovered that they're expecting some kind of delivery from Casio next week, so at least I may have a shot at trying something out before buying, which is a nice thought.

After thinking about it a bit more, I think my actual question about the comparison is about the 'sympathetic resonance' on the PX-850. I'm curious whether it's a dramatic improvement to the sustained sound, or if it's just, well, kinda nice smile

Thanks again for the helpful replies you two... getting closer!

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#2040763 - 02/28/13 01:03 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 392
I'll see what I can find out about distribution in Canada.

Don't forget the PX-850 also has release velocity which allows it to better reproduce staccato or legato passages.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2041228 - 03/01/13 08:21 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
tim36 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 8
I live in canda too. The px-750 is availaible at costco for 799$ with bench. They dont seem to get the px-150, 350, 850 and new ap-450. They stock the old x30 and ap piano.

I can confirm that you can order px-850 and ap-450 at your local casio dealer.

After called casio, i've been told that casio canada sell directly to costco and bigs stores but dealer have to buy from http://www.efkaymusic.com/ who is the distributor of casio products in canada.

I went to local dealer who sell yamaha, roland and casio. They didn't stock any casio model even px150. They told me that yamaha is better and they got trouble with ditributor (i dont know if it linked to less markup on casio) but to make a short story they try to sell you a yamaha. If i want a px-850, it will be a special order at 1500$ full retail price. That a non sense.

I found a dealer in montreal who stock px-150 and px-350. The saleman told me casio is good for 600-800$ price range, but again the same story when you want higher model, he say i will be better looking at korg for 1050$ and roland at 1500$. This guy was not selling any yamaha. So yamaha was not good at this store :-)

That very difficult to really get true pros/cons for casio vs yamaha and other big brands when people who sell them try to push others brands.

One thing is certains, there is something wrong with retail channel in canada.
Maybe px-850 is not so bad at 1150 for what you get for the price, but when you enter a store and they tell you yamaha is better and if you really want the casio it will be1500$, i think casio is better served with costco great price for familly who look for a decent piano for a great price.

So i'm in the same boat as you px750 at costco or a p105 or ydp-142 at local store.
Would like to hear the diffence of sound of the px750/850 live in store side by side comparaison.

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#2041363 - 03/01/13 01:27 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: tim36]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1540
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:
One thing is certain, there is something wrong with retail channel in canada.


AMEN !!!

The Casio PX-750 seems to be a PX-150, with 3-pedal "SP-33" and nice cabinet. A "bare" PX-150 costs about $600 at Tom Lee Music (I don't know if Tom Lee has a Quebec store). So the Costco price is fair.

Long and McQuade has a "no Casio!" policy.

Tom Lee has the PX-350 available (I bought mine from them), but they're not in the online catalog! You could phone, and ask about the PX-850. Since Tom Lee _does_ sell acoustic pianos, they might be able to sell you a PX-850 for a fair price.

. Charles

PX-350

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#2041563 - 03/01/13 07:00 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
adak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 282
Loc: Canada
It is hard to compete with Costco as they sell Casio pianos, meaning any piano that Costco sells, other music stores typically won't sell them because they cannot compete with Costco. I know cause I had the same problem when shopping for my Casio piano.
_________________________
Casio Privia PX-150


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#2041583 - 03/01/13 07:46 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
two2the8 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 24
Hmm, good call on Tom Lee, Charles. I called them and they said they can order the 850, though they didn't know how much it would cost or how long it would take. They do have the 350 in stock so I can go try it out, which is nice. I think the 350 and 850 are quite similar, so it should give me a good sense of the thing. The 350 seems to sell for the same as the American sites advertise, so that's promising.

And thanks Mike for looking into this for us... Provided the demo with the 350 goes well, I'd love to know more about whether the 850 will be available locally, or whether it'll be a special order item.

Thanks again all!

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#2041611 - 03/01/13 09:39 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
tim36 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 8
Update I find a dealer who offer me the px-850 at 1160$ and the ap-450 at 1260$.
(i like the ap-450 cabinet better and the bench is included with this one).. This dealer is too far to go to test both. Maybe i can go in montreal to see the action on the px-150 and 350 but this will not give me idea on the sound of px-850 and ap-450.

This dealer also tell me the same story as others. They stock px150 and 350. All others products are special order. He even told me they sell about 50/50 ratio px150 - p105, but he said they will not stock on their showroom any px-750, px-850 and ap series from casio as they conflict to their yamaha clp line.

I also can get a yamaha ydp-135 for 1100$, seem to be a little high, ydp-142 1300$ and a clp-430 for 1900$

Another dealer offered me a kawai cn 24 for 1800$ and ce220 for 2000$. This one told me that ce220 was for mass market and even if it has wooden key the cn24 will sound better.

How casio in the 1200$ price range compare to yamaha and kawai. As a novice player, anything justify going to higher price range 1800-2000$ , and is the casio build quality is good ?

What should i do:

Buy casio: px-750, px-850 or ap-450?

Buy yamaha: ydp-135, ydp-142 or clp-430

Buy kawai cn-24 or ce-220

I'm novice and my wife too (But she have a good music background. She got a bachelor in music playing flute)


Edited by tim36 (03/01/13 10:03 PM)

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#2041633 - 03/01/13 11:06 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1540
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Tim -

One thing that's important to the sound of an acoustic piano is the resonance between an "open" (undamped) string, and a newly-struck string.

To hear this:

. . . Left hand: Hold down C below middle C
. . . (let's call this C3);
. . . Wait for the sound to die away, if you can hear it.

After the sound dies away, while holding down the key:

. . . Right hand: play the chord C5/E5/G5
. . . (C major triad, on C _above_ middle C),
. . . _forte, staccato_.

If you do that on an acoustic piano, you'll hear the chord "ring", long after you've lifted off your right hand. The C5/E5/G5 are all harmonics of the C3, and that undamped C3 string picks them up and carries them, as long as C3 is held down.

If you try that on an inexpensive digital piano, you won't get the "ring" on the right-hand notes. [The Casio PX-150/350, Yamaha P105 and P155 all fail that test, I think.]

If you try that on an _expensive_ digital piano, you _will_ get the same "ring" you hear on an acoustic piano.

It's subtle, but it adds considerably to the "real piano" sound. Without it, the digital piano sounds just a bit "dead", compared to the acoustic.

That's one of the things that the extra $1000 will buy. It may also buy longer attack samples, more adjustability (e.g. adjustable "hammer hardness" or decay time), more-flexible EQ, and so on. And perhaps good emulation of "half-pedalling". And perhaps an action closer to an acoustic piano "feel". And (hopefully!) better loudspeakers and amps.

Whether those things are _worth_ an extra $1000 -- that's your decision.

My own decision (driven largely by budget) was that the PX-350 (and PX-150, for a "pure piano") was good enough (in action and tone) for what I wanted to do. [IMHO, the Yamaha P105 has an inferior action; the P155 had an equal or better action, with fewer voices and fewer features.]

I haven't been disappointed.

I suggest, when you go testing pianos, to bring your own headphones -- and they should be good ones. None of the low-price digi pianos (especially the "slab pianos" -- P-105/P155 / PX-150/PX-350) has good loudspeakers -- they cost too much money. But they have pretty good sound engines, and you can upgrade to "powered monitor" loudspeakers if you want/need to.

You're actually in a rather good situation -- there are several _acceptable_ choices within your budget, IMHO.

. Charles

PS -- if you want to really explore this, you'll be reading the DPBSD thread soon.

PPS -- I'm sorry to be so long-winded; i should get a job.

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#2041651 - 03/02/13 12:13 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
two2the8 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 24
Interesting to see that you say the 350 fails this test, too... It's supposed to have the 'damper resonance' functionality of the 850, right? Would you say it improves on the 150 in this regard, or are the two more or less equal?

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#2041655 - 03/02/13 12:23 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
adak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 282
Loc: Canada
I think purists should just buy a grand piano and be done with it.
_________________________
Casio Privia PX-150


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#2041656 - 03/02/13 12:28 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 573
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: two2the8
Interesting to see that you say the 350 fails this test, too... It's supposed to have the 'damper resonance' functionality of the 850, right? Would you say it improves on the 150 in this regard, or are the two more or less equal?

The damper resonance is fairly simple. Whack C5. Now hold the damper down and whack C5. It's fairly subtle down lower. Not the same thing as the PX-850's individual "string resonance" (or key-off effect).

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#2041675 - 03/02/13 01:48 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
two2the8 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 24
Ah, I think I get what you mean, xorbe, thanks. I think I folded the two ideas of damper resonance and sympathetic resonance into one concept in my head, but that's not really right (is it?). Let's see if I get it now: Damper resonance is about emulating the sound of damped strings that vibrate along with a struck string, while sympathetic resonance is about emulating the sound of undamped strings that vibrate along with a struck string because they're related harmonically. Is that right?

And if so, I think the 350 does emulate damper resonance like the 850, but it does not have the same sympathetic resonance emulation. Is that right?

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#2041786 - 03/02/13 09:54 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
tim36 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 8
Charles cohen:

I can try this next time I will be at the casio dealer. I cannot try it on px-850 / ap-450 as I dont have acces to them but I suspect it will be the same as px-150 / 350 as they are build on the same platform.

We dont dont know what we need until we get used to the things. My question as we are not pianist, and we are both beguinner does thoes subtilitys will make a difference.

I know one things for sure we better like to buy a cabinet style dp as a portable like px150-350 / P105.

My question is should i invest 1200$-1500$ or 2000$. I dont mind for example paid 1500$ for ydp-162 if it will be really better than the casio. ( but i dont like to throw money by windows). Maybe i will be not able to hear/feel the difference. Can a casio ap-450 compete with other brand in the 1500-1800$ price range. Even if not maybe the casio in decent enought for a beguiner.

I dont know anything about piano, but is casio compagny is as brother for printers. Brother are not big as hp/ canon with big mfp models but they sell decent products, at a decent price for the mass market of small business owner. Maybe brother dont make 10000$ mfp as canon / hp / konica , but that doesnt mean that a small business owner need a 10000$ copier. It's all about the need of the customer and in my opinion brother give you something good for your money. Is this comparaison is good for casio? In other term for the 1250$ casio will be better than a 1250$ yamaha.

As i dont know my needs, it's hard to tell what i should buy.

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#2041938 - 03/02/13 04:40 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1540
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:
. . .
We dont know what we need until we get used to the things. My question as we are not pianist, and we are both beginner does thoes subtleties will make a difference. . .


A real problem!<g>

It really depends on how much you want your _digital_ piano to sound like an _acoustic_ piano.

At some time in the future, one of you may play something by Debussy and say:

. . . "That doesn't sound quite right".

And the cause will be "missing string resonance". But before you _hear_ that difference, you'll have to play well enough to appreciate it !

My singing teacher played the PX-350, and pronounced it "Good enough!", and said:

. . . "You understand, a digital piano is a slightly
. . . different instrument that an acoustic piano?"

, , , "Yes."

Consider the digital piano as a piece of "consumer electronics", not as a lifetime investment. Find a sound that _you_ like. Spend as much as you are _comfortable_ spending, no more.

Two years from now, there will be better digi pianos, probably cheaper. Loudspeakers and good keyboard actions will still be expensive, but the cost of electronics only goes down.

. Charles

PS -- the sum of my thoughts:

. . . Get a Casio in the "x50" series, or a Yamaha with the "GH" action (P155 or similar), and learn to play. That will be a good starting point. If -- in the future -- you want a sound more like an acoustic piano, use a "software piano" with your keyboard as a MIDI keyboard.

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#2042250 - 03/03/13 10:20 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: Charles Cohen]
tim36 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 8
I went to nantel music who sell real ascoustic piano, casio, korg and roland. The saleman was a pianist and he taked time to show us a grand accoustic piano even if he know that we dont want to buy one. He say it will be easier to understand for us what a digital piano try to reproduce.

He showed us the key action, the change of timbre depending how hard you hit the key, the damper effect and the string reasonnance.

I kinda liked his explaination. After he showed us key action displays. First display was a accoustic, after yamaha gh3 which he dont like because they use spring and he sais it was not well balanced, after he show us the privia (but he didnt get the a real display, just a picture) but in his opinion casio is superior than yamaha in less 2000$ model, last display was roland who is superior in his opinion.


He than played on a 1000$ korg to show us that you can play something good on a 1000$ piano. He than show us the subtility that Charles was refering to. We was not able to hear the change of timbre between low and hard press key and the sting reasonnance from others keys.

He than played on the roland f120 and rp301 and we was able to hear thoses subtility.

He say that casio doest change timbre but I remarked that he was not pressing hard as on the roland. I tried later myself, but too mush people in the store to ear well. Can someone who got a px150/350 can confirm if there is a change of timbre depending how you you press the key.

I like the casio on display more than the korg. They looked well build for the price.

If i understand well what charles was telling about string reasonnance, px-850 and ap-450 seem to get is feature from what casio call sympatic reasonnance. Or i'm wrong ?

Overall, that was the first store where we beguin to get a better idea, but i still dont know why he prefer sell a 1000$ korg than a casio ?





Edited by tim36 (03/03/13 10:24 AM)

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#2042278 - 03/03/13 11:24 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: tim36]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 573
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: tim36
He say that casio doest change timbre but I remarked that he was not pressing hard as on the roland. I tried later myself, but too mush people in the store to ear well. Can someone who got a px150/350 can confirm if there is a change of timbre depending how you you press the key.

Official PX-350 mp3 piano demos (44.0MB) from casio:
Demo #1 : Demo #2 : Demo #3 : Demo #4

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#2042512 - 03/03/13 07:21 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: tim36]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1540
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:
. . .
He say that casio doest change timbre but I remarked that he was not pressing hard as on the roland. I tried later myself, but too mush people in the store to ear well. Can someone who got a px150/350 can confirm if there is a change of timbre depending how you you press the key.
. . .
If i understand well what charles was telling about string reasonnance, px-850 and ap-450 seem to get is feature from what casio call sympatic reasonnance. Or i'm wrong ?

Overall, that was the first store where we beguin to get a better idea, but i still dont know why he prefer sell a 1000$ korg than a casio ?


I'm happy that you have tried some pianos. That's the only _real_ way to know what the "specifications and features" means.

The Casio _does_ change timbre (sound quality) as you hit the key harder. I can hear it on my PX-350. You can see it on the spectrograms of the "DPBSD" test:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1966202/Re:%20The%20DPBSD%20Project!.html#Post1966202

Maybe he makes more profit on the Korg, than he makes on the Casio.

I don't know what kind of "resonance" the new PX-850 and AP-450 have. It is hard to be sure, because different makers have different names for the effects.

. Charles

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#2045313 - 03/09/13 12:14 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
two2the8 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 24
Any chance you might have more info on CDN availability, Mike?

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#2045377 - 03/09/13 06:06 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
pianomanvan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/27/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Vancouver, BC
i'm also in canada and was looking at the PX-750. you can't beat the costco price and customer service at $799. eventually i found a great deal on a yamaha p155 after monitoring craigslist for a month so didn't end up getting the 750 but it was a close second. it's hard to find prices that match the US in canada.

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#2045887 - 03/10/13 11:38 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: pianomanvan]
tim36 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 8
I just bougth a ap-450 last monday (share a lot with px-850 but better cabinet and come with bench) at a local dealer here in town. Im suppose to get it in 1-2 week. It will be the first batch of casio ap-450 delivery in canada.

I found a ad about ap-450 on kijiji and my local dealer matched the price. So no hassle with shipping or services. Keep in mind that you can always bargain price with a local dealer.

Cosmo music sell the px-850 and ap-450. Theirs prices are higher that what i paid and do not include shipping. ( heavy items).

Axe music in alberta also list the px850 on their web site.

Anyone who want to locate his casio dealer, can call the distributor efkay music at 514-633-8877 (i spoke with luke there) They are the distributor of casio piano for all canada. All dealer have to buy from them except costco who buy direct.

I will try to keep you update when i will get the ap-450.



Edited by tim36 (03/10/13 03:04 PM)

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#2046073 - 03/10/13 05:26 PM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: tim36]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1540
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Very good!

Report back, tell the rest of us what you think about it.

. Charles

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#2115519 - 07/10/13 05:57 AM Re: Casio px-750 vs px-850 (in Canada) [Re: two2the8]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
two2the8, I have read your post, here:

I'm in Canada & looking to buy a DP. Right now I can't find anywhere (literally, nowhere) that sells the px-850 in Canada. I assume it hasn't been released here yet. Just this week, though the px-750 has come available, for the same price advertised on American sites.

I'm perhaps more interested in the 850, but I'd like to get something fairly soon, and I'd prefer not to have to pay shipping & border fees to get one sent here from the US. So I guess I have two questions:

1/ Anyone have any idea when the 850 can be expected to show up here?

2/ To anyone who's played them both, are the differences between the 750 & 850 dramatic? I understand there are a few more features to the 850 (sympathetic resonance, lid simulator, 256 poly, bigger speakers). I will mostly use this piano for composing and practicing basic jazz comping, probably most of the time with headphones. If I pulled the trigger now on the 750, would I be missing out?

Thanks so much y'all. This is a really great & informative forum for newbs like me!

________________________________________________

Well, this is interesting. I saw a thread/posting about the casio px-850 that is supposed to be good but is not available in Canada. I always said that I wouldn't buy a casio because with Yamaha you can find a dealer anywhere on the planet. Well, I did a google search and I only found casio watches - not pianos - google produced nothing for piano - so I am right to be worried. But the good news is that I love costco so I trust costco if the sold the casio px-850 at whatever price - I would very interested if it is that good.

Oh, yeah, I did a google search of casio px-850 and it took me to piano world - so you could say that I arrived by the back door.

I have played the Yam AvanteGrand at 12,000, and it was pretty good for 12,000, but it was a digital and felt like a digital because it is a digital. So it is good that a casio px-850 costs a at least a grand weighs a ton (100 lbs) but digital are digital which are awesome, love them to death, but maybe in 10 years they will be closer to the piano action, if it is ever possible. Of course, sound doesn't matter, it is the touch is that is important, because playing the piano is about playing the piano. A piano is absolutely no good, if the action is no good. Sound is always secondary. Break one key on a piano, and the piano is destroyed because you can't play it.



Edited by Michael_99 (07/10/13 06:35 AM)

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