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#2056547 - 03/29/13 10:25 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2107
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135
Thanks rnaple.

Quote:
They make some awfully efficient heat/air conditioning systems these days.


Do you have any suggestions as to which systems might be good? I'm planning to research this, but if you have any suggestions, I'm all ears.

Maybe there is something like a forced air heat / cooling system that I can use just for the first floor, or a section of it, and then I can add a humidity control unit to that? Not really sure if something like that exists or not.


If you want a brand. Just research online which is most efficient.
You really just need to get off the ball and call some heating/AC companies. They will give you a quote.
It isn't "and then I can add a humidity control unit". It's talk to the heating/ac guy and tell him you want one in the forced air unit.
Don't make a mess out of it. Just do the heating/ac for the house, right.
Then it will save you money on utility bills.
You don't want to be opening a door to the room and the room be blasted with extreme humidity or dryness. You don't want to keep fooling with this. Waste all your time obsessing over it. Just do the house right in the first place.

And no Marty.... "Heat Pump" is not cute.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2056571 - 03/29/13 11:01 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Ron, I wasn't trying to be "cute." Isaac was trying to come up with the words for the system. It is called a Heat Pump. I have one with my own HVAC system.

It is the same as Malkin providing the term "Radiant Heat" when Isaac needed the English phrase.

I am sorry if I have offended you in any way.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2056701 - 03/30/13 06:58 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Data Logger

This unit will track temp. and RH. The program CD is included for your computer at no extra cost, according to the website, but some similar companies charge as much as $99, just for the software. I have no experience with the company.


As someone else has said, it is likely that your hygrometer has a problem, if it reads the same inside your piano as outside in the room in winter. [I am assuming that you have a humidifier with a water tank inside your piano.]

A college nearby has a medium sized auditorium which has an expensive pipe organ and a Yamaha 9' grand. They installed a humidity control system for the building at construction. It has never been good or sufficient. I have repeatedly asked the school to have the room tracked by the installing HVAC company and to provide printed proof of performance. The company has never done it and always says, "it's working." When the piano is always sharp and flat with the seasons, I don't need the graph to tell me the answer. If the company could have shown a graph that proved a stable humidity to plus or minus 5%, I would have been very surprised. That would have been reasonable performance and probably would protect both the organ and the piano.

In light of this experience, my opinion is that many whole-building systems don't approach the necessary tight range of humidity which a piano needs to stay stable. Also, here in the South, removal of summer humidity is the challenge: The system must involve dehumidification systems, plus the heat-pump based cooling - both systems running and eating lots of electricity. On the other hand, a Piano Life Saver with the back cover will meet the need with relatively low power consumption.

As a side note, large plants in a room can improve the eveness of humidity in that given room in winter - plus they look nice. This would help you in your New York winter environment even more than here in the South.


Edited by RestorerPhil (03/30/13 01:11 PM)
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#2059746 - 04/05/13 10:16 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Seems like there may be some interesting options here - Anyone ever heard of this company?

http://www.habitatmonitor.com
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2059758 - 04/05/13 10:44 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks for the responses everyone - I haven't had time to look into HVAC systems or call contractors yet, but it's still on my mind.

I've been very busy trying to find a grand piano that I like over the last week or so. It's exhausting!
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2059981 - 04/05/13 06:21 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: Minnesota Marty]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2107
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...It is called a Heat Pump. I have one with my own HVAC system.
I am sorry if I have offended you in any way.


The only thing I have ever heard of called a heat pump is the AC unit I mentioned in my first post. It is awful. I'd hate for anyone to buy one of these and take the salesman's word on it. They are awful for heat. Inefficient. Even then, at about 45 degrees they stop working completely. They aren't bad air conditioners though.

I haven't heard of anything else called a: heat pump. What was described. Closest I can think of is in Iceland. But they have lots of geothermal.

I didn't mean to be offended by you. Just mentioning that name. Please don't. I'd hate to see the OP get confused.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2059993 - 04/05/13 06:56 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: rnaple
And no Marty.... "Heat Pump" is not cute.

Ok - now I'm totally confused. I don't have any clue of what you are trying to say. You obviously misread my reply to Olek's post. I offered an apology if you were offended by some strange connotation which I don't understand.

Enough, already.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2059995 - 04/05/13 07:04 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 572
I think they thought your "Heat Pump"
suggestion was a joke re:geothermalheating.

Not everyone knows what a heat pump is..
I sure didn't until we moved south and got
and HVAC.
_________________________
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#2060000 - 04/05/13 07:22 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
It was nothing more than helping a fellow poster, who posts in a language which is not his primary, with the term for what he was trying to describe.

And yes, it refers to geothermal heating and cooling. And no, it has no effect on the RH in a structure. Other equipment is used to address those needs.

With the climate in Minnesota, it is very helpful in using geothermal energy in conjunction with a traditional HVAC system.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2060002 - 04/05/13 07:25 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 572
I know you were helping...

We call the heating element
in the HVAC's "heat pumps"...
we don't need geotheraml in FL. smile
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#2060046 - 04/05/13 09:12 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
Mark Purney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 373
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I see that the original poster already has a Dampp-Chaser, which is great. But the actual humidity level isn't as important as how consistently the humidity is regulated. Also, many hygrometers are inaccurate. But RH in the 30s really isn't bad if it stays within a few points.

For anyone concerned about protecting a piano from the impact of humidity changes, the very first thing that should be invested in is a Dampp Chaser. Attempting to regulate the humidity of an entire house (or even just one room) can be very problematic, inconsistent, expensive, and energy-consuming. But so many people will do anything to avoid investing in a DC for reasons I can't comprehend. I've got some clients that refuse to read the facts, data and studies done on the DC's effectiveness, yet they will insist that they don't work and they don't need one. Some fool themselves into believing some expensive, noisy Home Depot humidifier in the corner of the room is somehow a better solution. And they actually admit that they run it some of the time, but it goes for months without being used because they get tired of filling it with water or cleaning out all the mineral deposits. Imagine what that does to the piano - adding tons of moisture for a few months, and then letting it dry out. Why not just pour lighter fluid on the soundboard and light a match. Yikes!

Yes, in a perfect world, in a perfect house, a room that is regulated to ~40% RH at all times would be a wonderful solution for a piano. Achieving that in real life on a reasonable budget is incredibly unrealistic in most situations and for most homes. Trying to control the room's humidity should be secondary to a Dampp-Chaser, but only if you spend the money for something that will actually work, and you are devoted to keeping it maintained and running at all times.

The Dampp-Chaser is the best option for the vast majority of pianos - until something better comes along, which has not yet happened. Embrace it, and keep that tank filled.


Edited by Mark Purney (04/05/13 09:18 PM)
_________________________
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RPT @ Mesa Piano Service

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#2060149 - 04/06/13 01:45 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
To be honest, I'm thinking of doing the Dampp Chaser and controlling the space as well (to the extent that it's possible and not overly expensive)....I spoke to a contractor earlier today and it seems like the best bet in terms of controlling the space may be to just air condition in the summer (maybe dehumidify as well if needed), use the house's radiator heat in the winter, and then also use a humidifier in the winter that has a hygrometer control and is attached to the water line. The toughest part is going to be sealing off the top of the stairway which is attached to the room that the piano's going in. It seems that the humidity may just go up into the second floor without that. So how hard can it be to build a few doors?? cry
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2060154 - 04/06/13 01:53 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
I've heard the term "heat sink" before, in relation to the cooling mechanism of an external hard drive. In that context, it seemed to have something to do with temperature gradients and the heat from the spinning drive passing into the surrounding material to cool the drive. These "heat pump" and/or "radiant heat" systems seem to be somewhat similar....Maybe I am confused!
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2060268 - 04/06/13 09:42 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2107
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135
To be honest, I'm thinking of doing the Dampp Chaser and controlling the space as well (to the extent that it's possible and not overly expensive)....


Sounds like a pretty good plan.
Although when I speak of controlling the humidity in the house. I'm not talking about going nuts trying to keep it exact all the time. In the north, the swings in humidity can be great. You know that. Winter cold can be as dry as a desert. Summer humidity can be like the tropics.
Please just be smart. Talk to a few contractors. Find out what might save you money in the long run.

I myself would consider getting extra good filtering in the package.


I'd also like to thank the continued discussion on "heat pump" and what it means to others. Just so the OP won't get confused and buy something bad.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2060270 - 04/06/13 09:47 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: rnaple]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
No worries - I will do my homework before buying something. sleep

Buying a good filtration system seems to be a good idea. I would think that a good filter is particularly important in the humidification unit.

Thanks!
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2060288 - 04/06/13 10:21 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
This article might be of interest to you. Make sure that you read the second page.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/humidifiers/HQ00076
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2068241 - 04/21/13 09:02 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Anyone have any suggestions for "auto-fill" humidifiers that can be hooked up to a water line?
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2068766 - 04/22/13 04:05 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
The facts of your situation are pretty much identical to mine. Piano room with large opening to rest of house: Ontario (like NYState weather-wise).

Dampp Chaser: I own 2 grand systems, and using them on a Kawai Grand for 20 years... OK but not great... 1) you have to refill and change pads 2) the distribution of humidity under the soundboard is very uneven 3) the system cycles through extremes of heat and humidity under the piano to obtain a satisfactory overall humidity -- I never liked the extremes 4) pin-block is not humidified.

My temporary solution:

1) I put French doors in the opening between the piano room and the rest of the house.

2) I purchased 4! hydrometer (is that what they're called???) from Home Dump -- 2 tested accurately, returned the others (cheap solution)

3) purchase an "Essick" "whole house" humidifier (there are several brand names for this old-standby-humidifier, this is just one of them). It has two HUGE easy to fill water tanks and is reasonably good for ONE room (not the "whole house").

Also... it is reasonably QUIET at low speed.

4. The Essick has a humidistat which is NEVER accurate, of course, which is why you use the HD cheapo but accurate ones sitting on your piano and set the Essick to whatever turns out to provide 42 RH.

Disadvantages:

1. 7 -14 day refills during winter. Every 2 years replace the pads.

2. Need to switch to accurate dehumidifier in the summer.

3. No direct connection to water line. So if you're taking a holiday for more than 7 days ... someone's gotta refill.

4. Power outage? NOT GOOD... the Essick resets to max humidity!!!! .... That's the main problem and I'm trying to rewire this beast to eliminate the problem.

Advantages:

1. Dead on accurate whole room humidity. The piano stays wonderfully in tune... far better than DC system.

2. Relatively Quiet

3. In my house, which has a lot of windows, 42 rh does NOT produce any sweating, even on cold days... maybe I'm just lucky.



"What about just getting a good AC unit for summer, and then a powerful indoor humidifier with a built-in hygrometer that I can connect to a water line for winter? Preferably one that is easy to clean? Do those exist? I just don't relish the idea of filling a humidifier every day and cleaning it twice a week for the next 20 years....Isn't there anyone else out there like me who wants to make this process easier?"

That's the holy grail... if anyone can source one, I'd sure love to know about it!!!

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#2068776 - 04/22/13 04:27 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant
....Isn't there anyone else out there like me who wants to make this process easier?"

That's the holy grail... if anyone can source one, I'd sure love to know about it!!!

The solution is very simple. Buy or build a house which has a complete HVAC system with humidity control. It can become very difficult when trying to adapt to existing architectural design and thermal systems to accomodate the 'ideals' for pianos, furniture, people, and pets.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2068834 - 04/22/13 06:26 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: johnlewisgrant]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 731
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant
That's the holy grail...

I think you're making this too hard.

Use relatively broad stroke,vanilla approaches to condition the space in its current architectural layout through 4 seasons.

Then use the full DC with an undercover. Or as I do on my grand, a full, breathe-able cover which covers the entire instrument to the floor when not in use. I use this set up because both my wife and I can't abide summer air conditioning. We have french style casements throughout the house that we keep open, weather permitting, throughout the summer. The full cover-to-the-floor creates enough of a air movement break to let the DC do its job.

I often chat with clients about covering their instruments when not in use. The initial repsonse is usually "What???!!!" But really, every other instrumentalist puts their instrument away when they are not using it. What, is it about pianists and pianos that makes them, of all people, the musicians with the most complex and humidity sensitive instrument of any intstrument out there, think that their machine should, on its own, transcend the limits of physical reality?

Many pianists, after thinking about this chat, come up with ways and/or compromises, that let them think about keeping the instrument safe in its comfortable micro-climate when not in use.

The fact is, that if you think about it right, opening up the instrument when its time to play can simply become a positive part of your music making ritual.

Jim Ialeggio
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Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
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#2068959 - 04/22/13 11:07 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Quote:
The solution is very simple. Buy or build a house which has a complete HVAC system with humidity control.


I guess you're right Marty. When I buy my next house, I can make sure to either have a room for the piano that is easily isolated for humidity and temperature control or else go with an HVAC system that offers central heat / AC so I can add humidity control into the whole house.

Right now, though, I'm looking at a few more years at least in my current home, which has radiator heat. I suppose I could have an HVAC central heating / AC installed, but I'm guessing that would cost $10K or more. I'm hoping to find a cheaper solution. laugh

At this point, it seems like I'm looking at some kind of humidifier in the winter, so I'm trying to find something that requires as little regular maintenance as possible.
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2068961 - 04/22/13 11:10 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Jim - Thanks for the tip about using a piano cover for a grand in conjunction with the DC system. I guess that makes sense - but I do tend to go back and forth throughout the day to the piano, which makes for a lot of covering and uncovering. eek
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2068964 - 04/22/13 11:14 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
John - thanks for your info on the Essick humidifier that you have.

Quote:
purchase an "Essick" "whole house" humidifier (there are several brand names for this old-standby-humidifier, this is just one of them). It has two HUGE easy to fill water tanks and is reasonably good for ONE room (not the "whole house").


Two large water tanks that only need to be filled every 7-14 days is not bad! I guess a water line attachment would be better, but once a week or every other week seems pretty good if I can't find a viable option with a water line hookup.

Does this unit have any kind of air filter (re: concerns about mold etc. in the air)?
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2068975 - 04/22/13 11:37 PM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
No air filter, but to be honest at 42 rh I had no room-mold issues at all. As I say, however, the Essick's humidistat is not remotely accurate, but it is consistent, which is the important thing. The setting on my Essick, for example, was "55", but accurate room hydrometers showed that the REAL rh was about 42, and while the Essick's humidity readings were wrong, its stability was excellent. The rh was maintained with excellent stability at 42 rh.

All humidifiers tend to get "slimy" and "crusty" inside; and there are water additives for that. (Same for Dampp C.)

Here is a Canadian url for the unit I'm referring to:
http://www.lowes.ca/humidifiers/essick-air-products-2900-sq-ft-whole-house-humidifier_g1334680.html

US prices will be cheaper. The customer reviews are pretty accurate: in other words, the unit consists of Chinese-made valves at the bottom of the water tanks, which are... well... lets just say "delicate." Essick gave me a few extra ones for free (I broke one by accident). Note: unit advertised as appropriate for 2,900 square foot house. Not so. Good for one large room, I'd say; but in that context can be run at LOW fan speed and works very well (in my own experience), save the issue of power outages which I mention above.


Edited by johnlewisgrant (04/23/13 06:03 AM)

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#2069288 - 04/23/13 11:45 AM Re: Temperature / Humidity Control Systems for Part of a House [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks John. I'll take a look at this humidifier. Looks like it might be a good option. I'm still hoping to find a water line attachment though. laugh
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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