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#2061748 - 04/09/13 08:13 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: Olek]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 316
Loc: UK
Very interesting - thank you.
For tuning my own and my daughters pianos I managed fairly well with the aid of a small Yamaha instrument.But now I see that you keep either a third or a fith open to help incorporated/hear the partials: am I correct?
Where I have problems is with A0 to A1, and with G7 up.
Not that these notes are often used by either of us!!

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#2061760 - 04/09/13 08:45 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: Goof]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6365
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Goof
Very interesting - thank you.
For tuning my own and my daughters pianos I managed fairly well with the aid of a small Yamaha instrument.But now I see that you keep either a third or a fith open to help incorporated/hear the partials: am I correct?
Where I have problems is with A0 to A1, and with G7 up.
Not that these notes are often used by either of us!!


Hello, No I do not keep open notes, usually. Sometime if I am unsure to filter and locate well that 2nd partial I open the octave. If you hear as if other notes are opened it is the partials that couple and reinforce. In the audio recording I open only one note, I dont recall which one, may be the second note I tune. This of course make the 2nd partial much more present, but the accuracy is less good for the note tuned, it is just a tip , "ghosting" ...

You can tell to your ears to focus on only a part of the tone. This is where our ears allow us to "build" the notes we are tuning.

you can also be considered as a concert tuner and tune only the fundamental , as there :

http://youtu.be/_kjot8lJ_Nk listen at 6:45 or so.

This is "tuned", but brutal, and not singing much.

the difference is so small it is often unsuspected, and make tuners scratch their hair for years wink


Edited by Olek (04/09/13 08:46 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2061772 - 04/09/13 09:25 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 581
If you go to Isaac's youtube video on grand piano tuning, the following comments are made,

Uploaded on Jul 20, 2010
explanations on how to tune with the "slow pull" technique , so [u]to obtain the utmost firm pin setting, and accessory raise the resonance of the piano.
I added a few bubbles and text for fun ! that is the basis of pin setting whatever method is used it in the end the pin will be in that stressed position. (in other words - charged)

and then the first comment by someone who had watched the video and the second by Issac himself,

1. "I think "bending" of the pin is an inaccurate term. There may be slight flex and circular torsion if the pin block is excessively tight. What we're talking about here is the proper "setting" of the pin as well as the equalization of the tension and movement of the string over the non-speaking portions of the string length. I would consider proper pin setting and string settling to be a basic part of fine tuning."

2. "Yes thanks for correcting, the term in French mean stressing as it can be done with a bow..."

I would submit that what Isaac calls charging the pin is basically no more than what others call setting the pin.
_________________________
Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2061773 - 04/09/13 09:29 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6365
Loc: France
Agreed Chris, that is the amount of "charge" that can be more or less high depending of the method used.

On an optimal setting on a decent grand, the pin is hard to move any direction, even if you want to raise the string you have to "unlock" something. The pin is "active" within the block.

Pin setting is not so much saying, to me, but it is may be due to the language barrier, the "charge" can be evaluated.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2061778 - 04/09/13 09:42 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 581
Ok, charging the pin is setting the pin/string unit for optimal tone and stability? It is the pin and string unit that is being charged?
_________________________
Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2061783 - 04/09/13 09:51 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6365
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Ok, charging the pin is setting the pin/string unit for optimal tone and stability? It is the pin and string unit that is being charged?


Yes I suppose we can say so (it should be difficult to "charge" the pin without a certain stress from the wire)

I say for joking but, on a Viennese forte or other very light tuning pin, I tend to imagine that the string is holding the pin, not the opposite... That is why a piano at pitch can be easier to tune than the same a semi tone flat.


Edited by Olek (04/09/13 10:08 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2061965 - 04/09/13 02:22 PM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Not to mention that simply tightening all the action screws and aligning parts will enhance all aspects of the pianos tone quality. (including the flaws).
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2061986 - 04/09/13 02:58 PM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 581
I was just reading a post that Don Mannino wrote some time back (i printed it out for myself then, so I dont know where it is in the forum archives, but i suppose a thorough search may produce some result).

Don wrote,

"Narrow octaves in the center of the piano tend to make the temperament area sound more sweet and pure in tone...
and,
A more narrow octave in the treble area helps the piano to sing more, and bite less, as the lower partials within the octaves set up sympathetic ringing that builds sustain. Some of the attack of the tone is quickly transferred to an octave above or below reducing intensity and adding sustain..."
_________________________
Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2062003 - 04/09/13 03:17 PM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: Mark Davis]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
I was just reading a post that Don Mannino wrote some time back (i printed it out for myself then, so I dont know where it is in the forum archives, but i suppose a thorough search may produce some result).

Don wrote,

"Narrow octaves in the center of the piano tend to make the temperament area sound more sweet and pure in tone...
and,
A more narrow octave in the treble area helps the piano to sing more, and bite less, as the lower partials within the octaves set up sympathetic ringing that builds sustain. Some of the attack of the tone is quickly transferred to an octave above or below reducing intensity and adding sustain..."


Thanks for remembering that, Mark, that's exactly what I was taught. I don't think I ever saw it in print.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2062024 - 04/09/13 03:55 PM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 581
My pleasure RXD

_________________________
Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2062234 - 04/10/13 01:12 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: Olek]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1467
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
This tuning video shows a tuning that would not pass the PTG test. Just my opinion.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2062261 - 04/10/13 03:16 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
I was wondering that myself, Ed, some of the previously tuned notes that were being used as reference notes were very poor unisons in anyone's book. How can we talk of finer points when so many of the basics are just plain wrong.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2062275 - 04/10/13 05:04 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6365
Loc: France
Yes I agree with that, it give us the consonance at the octave level and slower RBI.

But then we are sometime "obliged" to raise fast in he treble if we want to have those quiet ringing high treble. If not the melodic part can sound dull and flacid

Those modern approach that straighten the curve give sparkle to he piano, but it is difficult and more on low iH instruments, to keep some softness while pushing the envelope.

To have the result you are obliged to push enough to get to the first strong consonant point (with CHAS even beat of 12-15 which allows yet for a quiet medium)


I was told with a slightly opened octave as 1/3 beat , but I have noticed that it is not a necessity. Japonese tuners tune all at the octave. That is nice up to the killer octave so the stretch is concentrated there, on concert pianos

I seem to appreciate the fluctuation between a close medium and enlarged 5-6 but not on any piano.

Anyway , if you enlarge you are obliged to do so frankly. If not, better keep on the quiet side. The even beating add some quietness in the end.


I believe that the beginning tuner is so afraid to have too short octaves once all the strings are tuned that he learns a strong tendency to enlarge the octave.

Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
I was just reading a post that Don Mannino wrote some time back (i printed it out for myself then, so I dont know where it is in the forum archives, but i suppose a thorough search may produce some result).

Don wrote,

"Narrow octaves in the center of the piano tend to make the temperament area sound more sweet and pure in tone...
and,
A more narrow octave in the treble area helps the piano to sing more, and bite less, as the lower partials within the octaves set up sympathetic ringing that builds sustain. Some of the attack of the tone is quickly transferred to an octave above or below reducing intensity and adding sustain..."


Edited by Olek (04/10/13 10:11 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2062280 - 04/10/13 05:20 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: rxd]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6365
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
I was wondering that myself, Ed, some of the previously tuned notes that were being used as reference notes were very poor unison in anyone's book. How can we talk of finer points when so many of the basics are just plain wrong.


Very surprising as hammer technique is decent. (despite the extra tall pin, I believe those are used because of the power sensation they provide. , that makes for a lot of flagpole and the tuner is tempted to bend the pin, so to be done faster)

May be an audition problem, in the end, it is possible don't you think ?


Edited by Olek (04/10/13 06:58 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2062297 - 04/10/13 06:28 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
A poor unison is a poor unison. No speakers can disguise it. There were a few whining notes being used as octave references and really disgraceful unison a 5th below the treble note being tuned at one point. I thought he had left many unisons a bit doubtful when it was being tuned 8 notes before and sure enough it was worse than I had thought when it appeared again as reference. Hav another listen. If you don't hear it I will find the reference point but I don't particularly want to hear it again.

I listened on good headphones on my office computer.
I have to be extremely self critical of my own work and rarely criticise the work of others. There are quite wide parameters for what constitutes a good tuning but unisons like this do not lie within those parameters.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2062303 - 04/10/13 06:57 AM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6365
Loc: France
No need to listen more , I also don't "wish" to criticize, I wish to hear nice work done. With time it finally make me angry to hear sloppy work presented as normal.

BTW I agree about your difference between moaning (fundamental or whole spectra) and whining (since 2nd partial)

Thanks for the vocabulary wink





Edited by Olek (04/10/13 06:57 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2062996 - 04/11/13 03:59 PM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: BDB]
David Jenson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1948
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: BDB
Hold the key or the pedal down longer.
#1 response of the whole thread, and all it took was 8 words!!!
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2063083 - 04/11/13 07:19 PM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4394
Loc: San Jose, CA
Maybe I can add eight more, for the OP:

"...I'm looking to upgrade to a grand for a number of reasons. I'm being confronted with the hard reality that I want a $60k piano, but I'm looking more in the $15-30K range, so I'm trying to get as good of an instrument as possible. Seemingly many of the lower cost grands are lacking in sustain..."

My RX-5 has wonderful sustain. Since Kawai is rolling out a replacement for the RX series with a new name, it might be a good time to find a deal that is close to the high end of your budget.

Anyway, shop the market. Your budget is not so far from reality, nor are your wishes.
_________________________
Clef


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#2069488 - 04/23/13 05:29 PM Re: Increasing Sustain [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Hey everyone - I just wanted to say thanks for all the comments and information that was provided in response to my post. I think that there is a lot that I don't understand in the above posts, as I am not a technician and don't have any experience with tuning pianos, but I think I was able to learn a lot from the discussion.

I'm still in the process of trying to find a grand to play in my home, but maybe I can find some time soon to try to understand of all of this a bit better.
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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