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#2385193 - 02/12/15 05:40 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: SwissMS]
johan d Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/14
Posts: 468
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By SwissMS
I am not quite sure what you are asking, but sight reading is playing through a piece
If I practise sight reading, I just name the notes out loud and in rythm. The only purpose is to learn to identify quickly the notes.
_________________________
Jazz is not an intellectual process. You use your intellect to take apart the materials and learn to understand them and learn to work with them, but actually it takes years and years of playing to develop the facility so that you can forget all of that and just relax and just play. Bill Evans

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#2385200 - 02/12/15 06:04 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: johan d]
earlofmar Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 2251
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By johan d
Originally Posted By SwissMS
I am not quite sure what you are asking, but sight reading is playing through a piece
If I practise sight reading, I just name the notes out loud and in rythm. The only purpose is to learn to identify quickly the notes.


It's a great start johan d but afraid it's all uphill from there.
_________________________
Learning piano starts by taking all your confidence and then over many years drip feeding it back to you smile

XXXVIII-9-XXX

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#2385212 - 02/12/15 06:48 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: earlofmar]
johan d Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/14
Posts: 468
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By earlofmar
It's a great start johan d but afraid it's all uphill from there.
So can i ask exactly how do you pratise these sight readings? Just take a new piece and...
_________________________
Jazz is not an intellectual process. You use your intellect to take apart the materials and learn to understand them and learn to work with them, but actually it takes years and years of playing to develop the facility so that you can forget all of that and just relax and just play. Bill Evans

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#2385213 - 02/12/15 06:53 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: Maechre]
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 1197
Loc: Italy
...and play it! wink

SwissMS explained it very well. You try to figure out its main features, the difficult parts, you try to hear it in your head if you can... and then you just play it through without stopping.
_________________________
Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
Martha Argerich... is an incarnation of the artistic metaphor of the "eternal feminine" that draws us upward. (Sergio Sablich)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia

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#2385214 - 02/12/15 06:57 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: Maechre]
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 1197
Loc: Italy
By the way, is it just me or pieces in minor keys are more difficult? I guess it's the accidentals, and the modulations. Hymns in minor keys tend to finish in the relative or parallel major.
_________________________
Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
Martha Argerich... is an incarnation of the artistic metaphor of the "eternal feminine" that draws us upward. (Sergio Sablich)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia

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#2385225 - 02/12/15 08:37 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: sinophilia]
malkin Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 3357
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By sinophilia
By the way, is it just me or pieces in minor keys are more difficult? I guess it's the accidentals, and the modulations. Hymns in minor keys tend to finish in the relative or parallel major.


Yes. For me anything in an unfamiliar key is harder. A minor has joined the familiar group and D minor and E minor slip back and forth across the border between familiar and unfamiliar.
_________________________
Everything in moderation, including moderation. --Oscar Wilde

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#2385236 - 02/12/15 09:05 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: malkin]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2462
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By malkin
Originally Posted By sinophilia
By the way, is it just me or pieces in minor keys are more difficult? I guess it's the accidentals, and the modulations. Hymns in minor keys tend to finish in the relative or parallel major.


Yes. For me anything in an unfamiliar key is harder. A minor has joined the familiar group and D minor and E minor slip back and forth across the border between familiar and unfamiliar.


Yes, that's why it's useful to practice pieces in all keys. The number of books / pieces like this are limited, so I tend to want to really learn these pieces. For sightreading, the websites that create the sight reading material is ideal for this.

For actually mastering the keys, here are the series I know of in rough order of difficulty.

First - easy ones (mostly quite corny pieces):
Scahums: Scales & Pieces in all keys Books 1 & 2:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/scales-and-pieces-in-all-keys-book-1-sheet-music/4983812
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/scales-and-pieces-in-all-keys-book-2-sheet-music/5643598
Schaums: Around the World in All Keys
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/around-the-world-in-all-keys-sheet-music/18747194

I used the first two of the above as a kid to learn the different keys. The difficulty of these books is about that of Alfred's Book 1.

Not Just Another Scale Book 1, 2, and 3
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/not-just-another-scale-book-book-1-sheet-music/7649191
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/not-just-another-scale-book-book-2-sheet-music/19133253
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/not-just-another-scale-book-book-3-sheet-music/19133170

Maybe a little bit better pieces in this set, you need all three books to get through all keys. You get a good scale workout in these pieces.

The following four books I consider worth learning:
Piano Miniatures 24 Short Solos in all major and minor keys by Victor Labenske
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/piano-miniatures-in-24-keys-sheet-music/17674100

Lyric Preludes in Romantic Style by William Gillock
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/lyric-preludes-in-romantic-style-sheet-music/17701597

Preludes by Robert Vandall
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/preludes-complete-with-cd-sheet-music/7651028

24 Character Preludes by Dennis Alexander
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/24-character-preludes-sheet-music/4104595

In most of the above, I linked to versions with CDs. There are also versions without.

Above this are of course the collections by Bach, Chopin and others.


Edited by DragonPianoPlayer (02/12/15 09:07 AM)
_________________________

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#2385239 - 02/12/15 09:31 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: DragonPianoPlayer]
supertorpe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 117
Loc: Spain. Cadiz.
Originally Posted By DragonPianoPlayer
Yes, that's why it's useful to practice pieces in all keys


While reading a Wikipedia article entitled "Music written in all 24 major and minor keys" I have been aware of Czerny Op.501 "24 Very Easy Preludes in the Most Useful Keys".
I can not find the scores, but it may be an useful and interesting resource.


Edited by supertorpe (02/12/15 09:35 AM)
_________________________
Started learning piano: 01 March 2010
- Ex: Yamaha P-85, Kawai ES-4
- Current: Kawai CA-63
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#2385243 - 02/12/15 09:46 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: Maechre]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2462
Loc: Denver, CO
Ah yes, Czerny. I haven't been able to find Opus 501 either. But, if you really want them there are also these:
http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks...n_und_Fugen.pdf

http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks...aufe_op_380.pdf
_________________________

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#2385245 - 02/12/15 10:18 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: DragonPianoPlayer]
Groove On Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/15
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By DragonPianoPlayer
Yes, that's why it's useful to practice pieces in all keys. The number of books / pieces like this are limited, so I tend to want to really learn these pieces. For sightreading, the websites that create the sight reading material is ideal for this.

For actually mastering the keys, here are the series I know of in rough order of difficulty.

First - easy ones (mostly quite corny pieces):
Scahums: Scales & Pieces in all keys Books 1 & 2:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/scales-and-pieces-in-all-keys-book-1-sheet-music/4983812
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/scales-and-pieces-in-all-keys-book-2-sheet-music/5643598
Schaums: Around the World in All Keys
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/around-the-world-in-all-keys-sheet-music/18747194

I used the first two of the above as a kid to learn the different keys. The difficulty of these books is about that of Alfred's Book 1.

Not Just Another Scale Book 1, 2, and 3
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/not-just-another-scale-book-book-1-sheet-music/7649191
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/not-just-another-scale-book-book-2-sheet-music/19133253
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/not-just-another-scale-book-book-3-sheet-music/19133170

Maybe a little bit better pieces in this set, you need all three books to get through all keys. You get a good scale workout in these pieces.

The following four books I consider worth learning:
Piano Miniatures 24 Short Solos in all major and minor keys by Victor Labenske
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/piano-miniatures-in-24-keys-sheet-music/17674100

Lyric Preludes in Romantic Style by William Gillock
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/lyric-preludes-in-romantic-style-sheet-music/17701597

Preludes by Robert Vandall
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/preludes-complete-with-cd-sheet-music/7651028

24 Character Preludes by Dennis Alexander
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/24-character-preludes-sheet-music/4104595

In most of the above, I linked to versions with CDs. There are also versions without.

Above this are of course the collections by Bach, Chopin and others.
Wow, thank you, that's a great list. Transposing to another key is something I'd love to add to my skill set.
_________________________
The question is, am I making music or just playing a bunch of notes?

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#2385262 - 02/12/15 11:19 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: Maechre]
Groove On Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/15
Posts: 245
So another mini-break thru for me in sight-reading today. I can finally "see" the keyboard in the Grand Staff! Yay! Been trying to do this for ages.

I was trying to create landmarks using intervals, but it turned into a whole exercise at "thinking" in intervals and all of a sudden, I could "see" the symmetry of the piano keyboard in the Grand Staff! grin Lots of Duh! moments.

1. My first Duh! moment, the G/F Clefs are both a 5th up/down from middle C. Easy to see/feel on the piano. So Landmarks #1.

2. 2nd Duh! moment, first line of the G Clef and the top line of the F Clef are both a 3rd from middle C. Also easy to see/feel on the piano. Landmarks #2.

3. 3rd Duh! moment, 2 spaces up/down from the G/F Clefs is C, so now I can see a full octave in either direction. Very easy to see/feel this on the piano. Landmarks #3

4. The space above the Treble Clef is a 5th above the C, same for the space below the Bass Clef which is a 5th below the C. This is a repeated pattern from middle C. So very easy to see/feel on the piano So Landmarks #4!

I'm still adjusting to this way of thinking, but it works much better. Most importantly there's a much better connection between the written music and my hands on the keyboard.
_________________________
The question is, am I making music or just playing a bunch of notes?

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#2385420 - 02/12/15 07:10 PM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: supertorpe]
malkin Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 3357
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By supertorpe
Originally Posted By DragonPianoPlayer
Yes, that's why it's useful to practice pieces in all keys


While reading a Wikipedia article entitled "Music written in all 24 major and minor keys" I have been aware of Czerny Op.501 "24 Very Easy Preludes in the Most Useful Keys".
I can not find the scores, but it may be an useful and interesting resource.


*giggle*
Did he do another set in the Most Useless Keys? Or perhaps a set in the Least Useful Keys?
_________________________
Everything in moderation, including moderation. --Oscar Wilde

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#2385423 - 02/12/15 07:15 PM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: malkin]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2462
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By malkin
Originally Posted By supertorpe
Originally Posted By DragonPianoPlayer
Yes, that's why it's useful to practice pieces in all keys


While reading a Wikipedia article entitled "Music written in all 24 major and minor keys" I have been aware of Czerny Op.501 "24 Very Easy Preludes in the Most Useful Keys".
I can not find the scores, but it may be an useful and interesting resource.


*giggle*
Did he do another set in the Most Useless Keys? Or perhaps a set in the Least Useful Keys?


I think PDQ Bach is working on that one. It's a follow up to
The Short Tempered Clavier or Preludes and Fugues in All the Major and Minor Keys Except for the Really Hard Ones
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/the-short-tempered-clavier-sheet-music/1901442
_________________________

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#2387812 - 02/18/15 08:20 AM Re: Sight-Reading Boot Camp [Re: Maechre]
Maechre Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 263
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
^ Love that.

Anyway, in response to the HS sight-reading thoughts...

I haven't practised regularly enough to confirm anything yet. It's still just a theory. But no, I don't think everything would go to heck when re-introducing the left hand (which would probably have its own season of HS practice). That's because you've worked on the right hand long enough that you can see patterns and chord shapes much more quickly, so you don't need to spend all the time working out two hands. The right hand takes a glance, the left hand takes a glance, and you're off.

As for having to practise sight-reading hands together... I disagree. Do you perform a piece that you haven't finished learning? That's not up to speed and messy in parts?

It doesn't matter how you improve when you're in your practice space, as long as when you come to perform, you can DO it!

To be honest, I haven't completely got rid of the left hand in my practice. Sometimes I play through with right hand first, and then I go through again with left hand included. But the idea is for me to be able to "see" and play those voiced chords more quickly.

Playing super slow, hands together only worked up to a point for me. Now I'm trying to speed up my recognition and response. I'm probably approaching my technical level now, but if I COULD sight-read well at this level (intermediate/solo/pvg) I'd be very happy.

So far I've read through Dan Coates Complete Advanced Piano Solos (slowly hands together), The Definitive Broadway Collection (slowly hands together, with some solo right hand near the end) and have just started The Definitive Jazz Collection (focus on right hand).

I also remember there was a short time I would sight-read for 1 or 2 hours per day, and I think I made a lot of progress then. I wonder if putting in that kind of time again would help.
_________________________
I love sight-reading! One day I will master it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Acrozius?feature=mhee

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