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#2080516 - 05/10/13 08:54 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: beethoven986]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Making a big deal about this just makes it worse.
Or maybe it puts and end to the endless bragging, self promotion, and criticism of other professionals.

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#2080517 - 05/10/13 08:55 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: pianoloverus]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6095
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Making a big deal about this just makes it worse.
Or maybe it puts and end to the endless bragging, self promotion, and criticism of other professionals.

Here-Here!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2080528 - 05/10/13 09:39 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Minnesota Marty]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Marty,

I'm very sorry you took my remarks that way. I was not trying to give you personally a lesson in anything. Rather, I was just trying to give a concrete example of what I meant. That's all.

You are certainly free to dislike Ed McMorrow personally because of his demeanor. Heck, you are free to dislike me for whatever reason.

As I wrote a minute ago, however, yours or my personal feelings about Ed are irrelevant to the discussion about his pianos. If you haven't played his pianos, you don't have any basis to form an opinion about them that can be taken seriously.

As far as my experience with other makers, how about you play Ed's B first and then tell me how they measure up against it? Then I'll be happy to tell you all about my professional experience with the instruments you listed.

Lastly, I'm going to say something really outrageous and unreasonable. I don't expect you or anyone to like it, and it's this:

If what Ed is saying happens to be true, it's not boasting.

Cheers!
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2080530 - 05/10/13 09:49 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: laguna_greg]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg

If what Ed is saying happens to be true, it's not boasting.
It's not a question of "liking" what you said or not.

The first definition that came up on a google search:"Talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities." Boasting is not related to the degree of truth of what someone says. Neither is arrogance. This is the definition.



Edited by pianoloverus (05/10/13 10:01 PM)

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#2080535 - 05/10/13 10:01 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: laguna_greg]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6095
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg

If what Ed is saying happens to be true, it's not boasting.

If all of his rebuilds are better than any new piano, he should be building pianos, not re-building or boasting ad infinitum.

I have no reason to seek out one of his re-builds.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2080539 - 05/10/13 10:54 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: pianoloverus]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Making a big deal about this just makes it worse.
Or maybe it puts and end to the endless bragging, self promotion, and criticism of other professionals.


Ha! Right...
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2080542 - 05/10/13 11:05 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Minnesota Marty]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

If all of his rebuilds are better than any new piano, he should be building pianos, not re-building...


Maybe he likes rebuilding. Rebuilding, as opposed to outright manufacturing, has its own unique challenges. And actually, it wouldn't surprise me if rebuilding is more difficult, in many respects. This can be especially true if a piano has been rebuilt poorly in the past, or has serious design flaws. In such cases, a rebuilder of Ed's (or some other high-end rebuilder) caliber will have to resort to essentially redesigning the instrument for it to reach its potential.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2080693 - 05/11/13 09:21 AM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6095
Loc: Rochester MN
There is something very important which seems to have been missed:

Originally Posted By: Mountain man
I live out of the country but my uncle is a certified Steinway tech. He is going to go see the piano.

The OP's question was about price, not who is the best rebuilder in the universe, which parts to use, or what work needs to be done.

The best advice is to take the advice from his uncle.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2080836 - 05/11/13 01:08 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Minnesota Marty]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 529
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The first definition that came up on a google search:"Talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities." Boasting is not related to the degree of truth of what someone says. Neither is arrogance. This is the definition.

I have been watching this thread with interest.

I am somewhat perplexed by the above definition. Not in the definition in and of itself, but of the double standard with which it is often invoked.

Look at the marketing of any piano manufacturer, especially tier one manufacturers. Does this definition apply to their speils or does it not? Said another way, marketing is the art of telling people what you do well. When done effectively it also convinces us why we as consumers need to believe their "boasting" and assign that "boasting" credibility.

Somehow we can not only put up with high priced, professionally produced "boasting" from "branded" vectors, but we find it difficult unto insulting coming from other vectors.

Can anybody explain why?

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
There is something very important which seems to have been missed:
...The OP's question was about price, not who is the best rebuilder in the universe, which parts to use, or what work needs to be done.The best advice is to take the advice from his uncle.

Marty, there is no such thing as a certified Steinway Tech. Some techs go the S&S for a certain amount of training, and some folks worked at the factory for certain amounts of time, and some folks were in the factory's janitorial department. They all were at the S&S for some amount of time, but certified..whatever that means...maybe not. However, to the point of my post, the imprimatur of an individual having no credibility on his own but being blessed by a brand is pretty much the same double standard I'm wondering about.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2080864 - 05/11/13 01:53 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: jim ialeggio]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The first definition that came up on a google search:"Talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities." Boasting is not related to the degree of truth of what someone says. Neither is arrogance. This is the definition.

I have been watching this thread with interest.

I am somewhat perplexed by the above definition. Not in the definition in and of itself, but of the double standard with which it is often invoked.

Look at the marketing of any piano manufacturer, especially tier one manufacturers. Does this definition apply to their speils or does it not? Said another way, marketing is the art of telling people what you do well. When done effectively it also convinces us why we as consumers need to believe their "boasting" and assign that "boasting" credibility.

Somehow we can not only put up with high priced, professionally produced "boasting" from "branded" vectors, but we find it difficult unto insulting coming from other vectors.

Can anybody explain why?
Because posts at PW aren't the same thing as ads.

If a piano manufacturer's rep posted at PW and continually said the pianos he represents were the best and that other pianos were inferior he'd get (or should get)the same treatment. Even actual piano manufacturer's websites are mostly far more humble than the posts under discussion. And these posts have appeared on many threads...it's far from just being limited to this thread.

You're not turned off by continual boasting? I'd guess most people are. It's similar to when a salesman at one piano store trashes the brands a competitor sells. Most people are turned off by that. But "at least" that occurs in a store and not on an internet forum.

What if some pianist kept on posting how his performance of a piece was far better than anyone else's ?


Edited by pianoloverus (05/11/13 02:04 PM)

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#2080865 - 05/11/13 01:58 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: pianoloverus]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The first definition that came up on a google search:"Talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities." Boasting is not related to the degree of truth of what someone says. Neither is arrogance. This is the definition.

I have been watching this thread with interest.

I am somewhat perplexed by the above definition. Not in the definition in and of itself, but of the double standard with which it is often invoked.

Look at the marketing of any piano manufacturer, especially tier one manufacturers. Does this definition apply to their speils or does it not? Said another way, marketing is the art of telling people what you do well. When done effectively it also convinces us why we as consumers need to believe their "boasting" and assign that "boasting" credibility.

Somehow we can not only put up with high priced, professionally produced "boasting" from "branded" vectors, but we find it difficult unto insulting coming from other vectors.

Can anybody explain why?
Because posts at PW aren't the same thing as ads. If a piano manufacturer rep posted at PW and continually said the pianos he represents were the best and that other pianos were inferior he'd get (or should get)the same treatment. Even actual piano manufacturer's websites are mostly far more humble than the posts under discussion. And these posts have appeared on many threads.

You're not turned off by continual boasting? I'd guess most people are. What if some pianist kept on posting how his performance of a piece was far better than anyone else's ?


Just stop. You're being ridiculous.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2080877 - 05/11/13 02:41 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: pianoloverus]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 529
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Because posts at PW aren't the same thing as ads.

Ok...I see your point.

However, at least in my experience, the reality of these forums is more complicated than that. Input comes from a number of directions. Some of it is chat between non-commercial entities... devoted pianists, amateur to experienced, some beginning pianists, etc, and some comes from highly accomplished professionals in the trade...these, of course, coming with some amount of commercial interest.

The piano is a complex machine. Its interaction with psychological perception of sound, and highly subjective experience of that sound, creates an instrument and experience which is anything but black and white...infact, for me, piano work professionally, and piano playing as a committed non-professional, is all about learning to be comfortable living in a permanently grey zone.

There are active current threads running whose OP's are showcasing their work. Though their presentations are admittedly not as blunt as Ed's approach, but they are to my mind doing exactly the same thing...that is presenting information, definitely with some commercial content, that some pianist(s) would not otherwise have been able to know about or be exposed to.

I do agree that Ed's posts would benefit both himself and the forum at large if the post were a little more subtle, but guys with vision often see things so clearly, its sometimes hard for them to realize others are not quite as quick on the draw. For me, the vision trumps the sell...but perhaps that's just me.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
to If a piano manufacturer rep posted at PW and continually said the pianos he represents were the best and that other pianos were inferior he'd get (or should get)the same treatment.

This is the part that baffles me. The branded entities have through whatever combination of marketing and the human psyche, managed to get thread after thread of posters repeating marketing hype over and over without even knowing they are doing it. I experience this as blunt advertising by proxy.

Perhaps that's just me, but being in the trade, knowing the nature of the structure of the instrument, knowing its physical limitations, and the physical limitations of most any production facility, the improbable recitation of marketing hype makes me roll my eyes...maybe I'm just a cynic... crazy

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
You're not turned off by continual boasting?

As I said, I would like to see the presentation a bit more subtle. But exclude it...no, not at all. I am turned off by what, at least to me, seems like a double standard in what kinds of promotional post are acceptible and what kinds are not, with the negativity mostly having to do with the artfulness of the sell, not the content.

However, I fully respect your take on this...I just wanted to offer my own experience of the issue.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2080890 - 05/11/13 03:09 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8073
Loc: Georgia, USA
Excellent post, Jim Ialeggio!

In fact, I think this is a good time to close this one out... smile

Rickster

P.S. Okay, Pianoloverus, looks like you got the last word here; in spite of the lack of enforcement by the moderators, as you say... smile

_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2080891 - 05/11/13 03:09 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: jim ialeggio]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio


There are active current threads running whose OP's are showcasing their work. Though their presentations are admittedly not as blunt as Ed's approach, but they are to my mind doing exactly the same thing...that is presenting information, definitely with some commercial content, that some pianist(s) would not otherwise have been able to know about or be exposed to.

I do agree that Ed's posts would benefit both himself and the forum at large if the post were a little more subtle, but guys with vision often see things so clearly, its sometimes hard for them to realize others are not quite as quick on the draw. For me, the vision trumps the sell...but perhaps that's just me.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
If a piano manufacturer rep posted at PW and continually said the pianos he represents were the best and that other pianos were inferior he'd get (or should get)the same treatment.

This is the part that baffles me. The branded entities have through whatever combination of marketing and the human psyche, managed to get thread after thread of posters repeating marketing hype over and over without even knowing they are doing it. I experience this as blunt advertising by proxy...

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
You're not turned off by continual boasting?

As I said, I would like to see the presentation a bit more subtle. But exclude it...no, not at all. I am turned off by what, at least to me, seems like a double standard in what kinds of promotional post are acceptible and what kinds are not, with the negativity mostly having to do with the artfulness of the sell, not the content.

However, I fully respect your take on this...I just wanted to offer my own experience of the issue.
I basically agree with everything you wrote here and think you've even clarified some issues on this thread very well.

Yes, plenty of rebuilders have promoted themselves at PW but they do so without the extreme boasting aspect. And although I understood their motivation, for me, it was not a problem at all. How you say something is incredibly important.

I also agree that a few makers have "managed to get thread after thread of posters repeating marketing hype over and over". A few dealers take advantage of what is IMO lack of enforcement in this area.

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