Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 6 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6
Topic Options
#2143358 - 09/03/13 10:12 AM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
Hi Shey, Congratulations on the new baby! How wonderful!

Regarding Gary's keyboard chart: Gary D. is a teacher who posts on PW (note the "." in his name if you PM him). He uses a chart with his students which sits behind the piano keys. It shows a piano staff from three ledger lines below the bass clef to three ledger lines above the treble clef, with a note on every line and space that is positioned behind the key it goes with. He teaches his students to use the chart to go from their music to the key on the piano (and only then say the name of the note: find and play the note, then name it, to build the physical connection as primary, not the translation to a letter name). As students learn the location of the notes on the keyboard relative to the staff, they experiment with taking the chart away temporarily. Eventually they know all the notes and don't need the chart any more.

What I love about this idea is it allows music that covers a wide range to be introduced immediately. No restriction to five finger positions and a laborious memorization of letter names and locations before you can hear the range of the piano. It would seem like the chart might be a crutch that students never get free of, but this turns out not to be the case.

Unrelated to the above, I wanted to go back to seomthing I left out earlier when talking about key and aural identification:
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I left out the aural component of this. You may find, either now or later with more experience, that you can tell by the sound of a piece if it's in a major key vs. a minor key. That can be another clue or confirmation in determining the key -- not the letter name, but at least if it's major or minor.

Another aural component to this is that some people can also hear which note in the piece the piece seems to return to or however around. This is the tonic note: the letter name of the key. It's often the last note of the melody, and can be heard elsewhere in the piece as well. If you can hear this, then you can match that note on the piano aurally and know the letter name of the key. I can't do this in any reliable way (well, I can match the last note to the piano, but I don't have any sense that this is an important note, more important than any other note, nor that it has been heard in any important way earlier in the piece). Experiment with some tunes and find out what you hear.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#2153242 - 09/18/13 06:41 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
Shey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Greater Manchester, England
Hello, PS88, et al, I have been studying basic music theory which I found on Pianostreet. It's a pdf and is really suitable for me. I am still on Amazing Grace, the last in Alfred's book 1, and finding it quite challenging. At first I didn't like it at all, but now it is coming together, it is really nice.
I have been practicing scales and theory, so have not learned any new songs. However, I can feel things progressing really well.
I would really welcome some more advice on chords please, maybe go right back to the building of them. Help with triads and also how can I get familiar with chords?
Amazing Grace has notes not seen before and is my last piece in my book, I intend to review the whole of book 1 before deciding where to go next. Some have said book 2 is not so good.
I have grasped the idea of chord inversions, and some understanding of key signatures, and would like more help with chord structure.
I did myself a scheme of work and some session plans to take me up to the Christmas period, but I need your help, input and advice. Thank you.

I would appreciate any advice on this too.

?
_________________________
Alfreds All In One Level 1 graduate and various other tutor sources
Alfreds Masterworks Classics Level 1-2
Fundamental Keys
Adult returner

Top
#2153326 - 09/18/13 08:44 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
Hi Shey, good to hear from you!

Can you post a link to the pianostreet music theory PDF?

What are the measures in Amazing Grace that have new notes? Have you been able to figure them out?

Talking about chord structure is a large and broad topic! Can you say a bit more about what you want to know about? I know, that might be a hard question since if you knew the words for it already you might already know the answer too. I have an idea of where I'd start if someone said "tell me about chords," so I'll start there (after I take some time to reflect on this some more). Others might start in other places so I hope they'll jump in with their interpretation of how to answer your question.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2153329 - 09/18/13 08:52 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: PianoStudent88]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Hi Shey, good to hear from you!

Can you post a link to the pianostreet music theory PDF?

What are the measures in Amazing Grace that have new notes? Have you been able to figure them out?

Talking about chord structure is a large and broad topic! Can you say a bit more about what you want to know about? I know, that might be a hard question since if you knew the words for it already you might already know the answer too. I have an idea of where I'd start if someone said "tell me about chords," so I'll start there (after I take some time to reflect on this some more). Others might start in other places so I hope they'll jump in with their interpretation of how to answer your question.

"Chord structure" is a very vague term that one could talk for hours about without ever coming close to the information the asker wanted. If we are to answer this question, we are going to need more specificity.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2153339 - 09/18/13 09:09 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
Oh, I'd like more specificity if possible, but I'm willing to throw some things out there and see if it's in the ballpark or not, and even if it's not, I'll have gotten a chance to share some things that I think are interesting, important, or useful, or maybe all three, to at least somebody reading the thread. Also you never know which bit of looking at something will trigger a connection and exploration that goes beyond the single specific question someone might ask.

And even if Shey gets more specific, I'm probably going to be looking for ways to sneak in other ideas anyway.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2153744 - 09/19/13 12:23 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
Shey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Greater Manchester, England
Hello, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I don't know how to provide a link for the PDF, not technical at all. It's called, "Basic Music Theory, How to Read, Write and Understand Written Music" by Jonathan Harnum.
I found it on Student's corner, on Pianostreet, the thread is called (a music theory's study group), the PDF is on the first post there under 'the resources'. If you could locate it and post it here I think it would be very useful.

With regard to Amazing Grace, treble clef measures 19 and 23 have D sharp,E and G, bunched up together. I know how they are supposed to sound, but just don't know how to play them together with the ripple sound it should have. To practice the piece I have just been playing the E and G, so as not to stutter too much, but hope you can describe how they are played.

Oh apologies, and also to Polyphonist regarding the question on chord structure. I wasn't very specific at all. So I will re-phrase and ask, 'tell me about chords'. I have some basic idea about them, but how would you begin to discuss how they work to someone who is on a learning curve and needing step by step guidance? Please throw some ideas at me as a beginner, and I will tell you if I understand that particular concept or not.
Thank you so much for all your help.
_________________________
Alfreds All In One Level 1 graduate and various other tutor sources
Alfreds Masterworks Classics Level 1-2
Fundamental Keys
Adult returner

Top
#2153925 - 09/19/13 05:08 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2309
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Shey
So I will re-phrase and ask, 'tell me about chords'.
You may recall that I tend not to be well-enough versed in beginner friendly terminology or concepts. Let me know how far this goes...

Two notes together form an interval. Three notes together form a chord.

Western Harmony (music using equal temperament instead of pure/just intonation from the harmonic series) is built on thirds.

A triad is a three note chord using:
1st note: the root note
2nd note: a third above the root
3rd note: a fifth above the root.

The interval between the 1st and 2nd notes of a chord can be a major third (four semitones) or a minor third (three semitones).

The interval between the 2nd and 3rd notes of a chord can be a major third (four semitones) or a minor third (three semitones).

As a corollary, the interval between the 1st and 3rd notes of a chord can be a diminished fifth (six semitones), a perfect fifth (seven semitones) or an augmented fifth (eight semitones).

In naming a chord we identify the two intervals from the root. They are the third (interval between 1st and 2nd notes of the chord) and the fifth (interval between 1st and 3rd notes of the chord).

If the fifth is diminished, six semitones, it follows that there are two stacked minor thirds, each of three semitones and the chord is called diminished.

If the fifth is perfect, seven semitones, it follows that there are two different thirds, one major and one minor and the chord is named after the third (the interval between the 1st and 2nd notes of the chord).

[So major triads are a major third with a minor third stacked on top and Minor Triads are a minor third with a major third stacked on top.]

If the fifth is augmented, eight semitones, it follows that there are two stacked major thirds, each of four semitones and the chord is called augmented.
__________________________

The primary chords are the major triads of a scale. Let's stick with major scales for now.

A triad can be built on any degree of a scale. There are, then, seven triads in every key, one for each degree of the scale.

The tonic triad (I in Roman Numerals) is built on the tonic note (1st degree of the scale) and adds the mediant (3rd degree) and the dominant (5th degree). Because of the structure of a major scale (TTSTTTS) the tonic triad will always be major.

[It also follows that all the chords based on a particular degree of the scale will be of the same major/minor quality in all keys using the major scale.]

The dominant triad (V in Roman Numerals) is built on the dominant note (5th degree of the scale) as its root. Its 2nd note is a third above. In the major scale that will be the 7th degree of the scale and will always be a major third in a major scale. The 3rd note is a fifth above the root. In a major scale that will always be a perfect fifth and will be the 2nd degree of the underlying scale (the notes wrap round at the octave so 2nd is same degree as 9th). In C major the dominant chord is G major.

The subdominant triad (IV in Roman Numerals) is built on the subdominant note (4th degree of the scale) as its root. Its 2nd note is a third above. In the major scale that will be the 6th degree of the scale and will always be a major third in a major scale. The 3rd note is a fifth above the root. In a major scale that will always be a perfect fifth and will be the tonic of the underlying scale - that's why it's called the subdominant, it's a fifth below the tonic. In C major the subdominant chord is F major.

The three primary triads cover all the notes of the tonic scale and can therefore harmonise (coarsely or otherwise) with every note of a diatonic melody.

Hence the three chord trick and the simplicity of folk/pop harmony. If, for example, you're trying to find the chords to a particular song in C major and the melody note on the beat is C you may harmonise that note with any chord with a C in it, here C major (C-E-G) or F major (F-A-C). If the melody note is D you would choose G major (G-B-D). With most pop/folk songs the first melody note of each bar is usually strong enough to dictate what chord to use through the bar. Sometimes the chord changes on the third beat (in 4/4 time). I've seldom had to change chord on every beat in a bar but it does happen.
(Note that you may not get the actual chord used but you should get a passable harmony.)

CDEFGAB notes in the C major scale
C-E-G__ notes in the C major chord (C-E-G)
-D__G-B notes in the G major chord (G-B-D not in order here)
C__F-A- notes in the F major chord (F-A-C again not in order)

__________________________

Picking alternate notes from the scale beginning on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th degrees of the scale you should be able to find the three minor chords and on the 7th degree a diminished one.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2154490 - 09/20/13 01:59 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2309
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
A triad is a three note chord using:
1st note: the root note
2nd note: a third above the root
3rd note: a fifth above the root.
I have been admonished for my terminology!

In a note to a beginner it looked odd that there are three notes in a chord; the first is the root, the second is a third and the third is a fifth!

I chose something that maybe dealt with it better for me. Perhaps I could've used better terminology.

Maybe someone else can try!

_________________________________

I am reminded of the rules of cricket: As explained to a foreigner...

"You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.

"Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out.

"When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

"Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

"When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

"There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.

"When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game."
__________________________________

Hope I haven't confused you, Shey! smile
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2154507 - 09/20/13 02:21 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Richard, I wrote you a PM as a heads up and it was not as an "admonishment".

My heads up was about this part:
Quote:
A triad is a three note chord using:
1st note: the root note
2nd note: a third above the root
3rd note: a fifth above the root.


In a C major triad, in root position, the notes are referred to as:
G - 5th note
E - 3rd note
C - Root (= 1st note).

You actually wrote it that way when you wrote "root, 3rd note" etc. and I didn't notice the 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

But later my attention was caught when you wrote about augmented and diminished chords, and talked about raising "3". Well, to me, a raised 3 would give me C E# G (essentially CFG respelled) and a lowered 3 would give me C Eb G (Cm). I thought you had a typo, and had intended to write "raising 5" but mistyped the 5 as 3.

In an augmented chord, 5 is raised:
C E G#
It has an uneasy, unsettled sound. The distance between C and E is a major 3, and also between E and G#. It is a fascinating chord.

If seeing "3" being referred to rather than 5 confused me, it might confuse someone else and that is why I mentioned it.


Edited by keystring (09/21/13 03:05 AM)
Edit Reason: simplified

Top
#2154509 - 09/20/13 02:24 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
I've been thinking it's about time to start introducing those terms, in any case, Richard. Loved the description of cricket. England's counterpart to "who's on first?"

Shey, I'm still reflecting; I haven't forgotten the thread. I have a more philosophical orientation to chords I want to give, and then get into the technical aspects.

Maybe you could say something about what you already know about chords?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2154589 - 09/20/13 04:11 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
I found the book that Shey mentioned. It's the first book in the Resources section of the first post of this A Music Theory Study Group! thread on PianoStreet. They've only recently started, so if you're interested you might want to check it out. I'm thinking I may finally get my act together to create a PS account just so I can participate.

The book is also available for sale or special order at your favorite bookseller. It looks like it's very reasonably priced; competitive with the cost of printing out the PDF, and bound to boot.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2154591 - 09/20/13 04:17 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4741
Loc: South Florida
When teaching chords in"real time" we don't have such problems, because we are dealing with fingers on keys.

With a C major chord, some finger plays C, some finger plays E, and some finger plays G. You can also use two hands.

One you have found those keys, you can adjust them.

With a major chord, starting with the simplest form:

C E G = Root position and closed position and simplest form...

You can just show a student how to move the "top" key up to the very next key for an augmented chord.

It is simple, direct, obvious.

In cyber-world, without pictures, without being able to touch things, such a simple thing becomes horribly difficult.

I can easily see why these things:

3rd note
3rd of a chord

will be swapped and confusion will result.

But there is also no guaranteed easy, clear, obvious way to explain such things online.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2154599 - 09/20/13 04:35 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: zrtf90]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5441
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
_________________________________

I am reminded of the rules of cricket: As explained to a foreigner...

"You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.

"Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out.

"When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

"Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

"When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

"There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.

"When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game."
__________________________________



That almost made sense -

Cathy


Edited by jotur (09/20/13 04:36 PM)
_________________________

Top
#2154627 - 09/20/13 05:10 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: PianoStudent88]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4741
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Hi Shey, Congratulations on the new baby! How wonderful!

Regarding Gary's keyboard chart: Gary D. is a teacher who posts on PW (note the "." in his name if you PM him). He uses a chart with his students which sits behind the piano keys. It shows a piano staff from three ledger lines below the bass clef to three ledger lines above the treble clef, with a note on every line and space that is positioned behind the key it goes with. He teaches his students to use the chart to go from their music to the key on the piano (and only then say the name of the note: find and play the note, then name it, to build the physical connection as primary, not the translation to a letter name). As students learn the location of the notes on the keyboard relative to the staff, they experiment with taking the chart away temporarily. Eventually they know all the notes and don't need the chart any more.

What I love about this idea is it allows music that covers a wide range to be introduced immediately. No restriction to five finger positions and a laborious memorization of letter names and locations before you can hear the range of the piano. It would seem like the chart might be a crutch that students never get free of, but this turns out not to be the case.

That's a good description, so thank you for summing it up so well.

As you know, I do this with kids who are as young as five, but it is rock solid so far as the logic.

In fact - related to this - I have even the small ones learn to play major chords, all 12 of them. I teach this by rote - no logical explanations. The explanations come later.

I drill on key names using this logic:

Play a C chord.
Play an F chord.
Play a D chord.

Etc.

If a student of any age nails the chords, that student knows key names, so that part is done.

(You can't find an A chord if you do not now which key is A.)

From that point on I rarely ask for the names of notes until I see that they are all found easily. There is a reason for that.

If I a student is looking for what I call "than hanging note", which would be D in the treble clef, below the 1st long line, and F in the bass, same location in the staff, I want that student to see which line or space on the page goes to which line or space on the keyboard.

But I do not want the student to think about the name until the key is found.

This sounds like splitting hairs, but it isn't.

If you correctly link any note on a page to the correct key it goes to, every time, without even thinking, and if you also know that name of every key, every time, without thinking, a link takes place between the two. The picture or glyph or "circle" becomes linked to the key, and at that point the student no longer knows where the correct information is coming from, as it is all close to light speed.

I scanned my chart and presented it some time back, but I do not remember where I put it. I used to put the letters on the chart, then did a second version without the letters, but I now use the no-letter version from the get-go.

It works faster.

I simply ask my students to start flipping the chart down when they think they just about have it, and the faster ones who are also self-motivated get it VERY fast.

Once they have it, they are free of mnemonics, tricks, and "translations".
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2154673 - 09/20/13 06:29 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
Shey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Greater Manchester, England
Zrtf90, well I really didn't misunderstand about the root, third and fifth, I understood that from a prevoius post of PS88's. But, gradually as I read further on, I got completely overwhelmed. I believe I will re read your post in a couple of months and it fall into place for me, thank you though.

PS88
'What I know about chords',
I thought I knew, they were played with fingers, 1,3 and 5, thus making a triad. Each chord has a name, and I assume they are to be learned, in order to play along with popular tunes.
How they are taken from a scale eludes me, diminished, augmented, tritone are terms I am sure change the shape of a chord, well I think.
You helped me to understand chord inversions, after I had read and studied and was unable to grasp that idea from various books. However, That doesn't mean I know how to use them correctly.

I am not sure why I am so puzzled by some things and not others, but I am not worried because I just need to look at other ways to suit my comprehension.
Chord progressions also is a term I am not sure of. I'm feeling a little dim by writing all this 'dont know' stuff.

Hope you can do your dumb it down, step by step thing you do so well. Regards Shey.


Edited by Shey (09/20/13 06:52 PM)
_________________________
Alfreds All In One Level 1 graduate and various other tutor sources
Alfreds Masterworks Classics Level 1-2
Fundamental Keys
Adult returner

Top
#2154696 - 09/20/13 07:03 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
.


Edited by keystring (09/21/13 03:07 AM)

Top
#2154698 - 09/20/13 07:11 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
Shey, your description about what you know about chords is very helpful. Still ruminating, but I should emerge soon smile .
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2154699 - 09/20/13 07:12 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4741
Loc: South Florida
I think what I have read here up to this point is about like a beginner saying:

"I am trying to learn a couple basic things in French. I am a beginner."

Then a whole bunch of very enthusiastic people, most of whom are either somewhat fluent in French or very fluent in it, start having a conversation, in French, about why this or that point in French is easy, a bit hard or very hard.

I don't recall reading anything that is wrong. In fact, there is a ton of good stuff here. But I have to say that my eyes nearly blurred over, reading it all, and I TEACH this stuff.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2154909 - 09/21/13 08:29 AM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Gary D.]
Shey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Greater Manchester, England
Gary D, is there some way I could create one of those charts you use to teach your students how to learn the notes relating to the piano keys without using mnemonics? I have been progressing well with quite a few notes on, above and below especially on the Treble Clef, but it is slowing me down using mnemonics GBDFA on the Bass Clef and I have got into the habit, which is not good.

I know you said that to describe how to do this in words is not as effective as sitting at the piano with a student, but I would appreciate some guidance on how to do that if you would be kind enough to take the time to explain.

For all my 'don't knows' I am still loving the learning and every small achievement made, I make sure I fully recognise.

I love this forum, so grateful to all the helpful posters.
_________________________
Alfreds All In One Level 1 graduate and various other tutor sources
Alfreds Masterworks Classics Level 1-2
Fundamental Keys
Adult returner

Top
#2154946 - 09/21/13 10:20 AM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
Trstan993 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 86
Have you ever tried http://www.pianowithwillie.com/
The teacher is ex Berklee and teaches primarily jazz but through his lessons you learn how to apply theory to the actual music via improvisation. I must say I've learned so much from his lessons and you really start to have better understanding how chord substitution works, tritones, and how to apply different scale modality with respect to each chord.

Top
#2155132 - 09/21/13 05:22 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
Shey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Greater Manchester, England
Thanks for your reply Ttstan 993, I did have a look at that website some time ago, but I have so much going on I decided to stick with the help on ABF for now.
I am reading allsorts, and getting advice and info from other sources, so overwhelmed, so going with Basic Music Theory PDF, Alfred's and help here just now.

Will see how I get on toward the Christmas period, then may have a shake up.
_________________________
Alfreds All In One Level 1 graduate and various other tutor sources
Alfreds Masterworks Classics Level 1-2
Fundamental Keys
Adult returner

Top
#2155585 - 09/22/13 03:20 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
I had written a whole post the other day, and then my phone ate it. Trying again.

I'm going to sidestep the technical stuff for starters, and send you out for some experimentation at the keyboard. Go to the keyboard, and play several notes at the same time. Use either hand, or both hands. Use whichever fingers are comfortable. Listen to the sound. What is it like? Pleasant? Harsh? Piquant? Ethereal? Stable? Unsettled? Harmonious? Discordant? Feel free to think of your own words for the sounds. Or stay as simple as "like" and "don't like". Or skip the words entirely and just experience the sounds.

If you find any combinations you like or find particularly interesting, write down the notes and share them here.

It's remarkably slippery to define "chord." One definition might be "three or more notes played together" and I would call each combination you've just played a chord. When you start digging in and working with chords you'll start to find out that we chip away at all parts of that definition: sometimes you might consider just two notes to represent a chord. Sometimes notes are played together but we think of only some of them as being part of the chord. Sometimes the notes of a chord are played one after another instead of at the same time. You don't need to remember these finer points now, but I do want you to remember that "notes played at the same time" is just a starting point for thinking about chords, and you'll see variations later.

For me, it's a reasonable starting point because it allows you to be free in thinking about harmony (chords). It's more than just the common sounds that have usually been used; it can be as inventive as you want.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2155621 - 09/22/13 04:09 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
What did you think of that experiment at the piano? I'm imagining that you might have enjoyed the freedom and the variety. Or at the other end of the spectrum, you might have thought "this sounds terrible! How can I make more musical sounds?!" Or maybe you experienced both reactions at the same time, or something else entirely.

I find that when I do this I'm just intrigued by the sounds. I've found that if I just reach my hand out to the keyboard and grab some notes, I usually end up with notes a fourth apart: for example D G C. This actually has a name (it's called a "quartal" chord), and I find the sound really interesting.

Let's turn now to sounds more typical of much of western music as it has developed. Over the centuries, musicians and composers explored combinations of sounds and came up with choices of notes to use together to create various effects.

Let's start with octaves. The ancient Greeks already knew about singing in octaves -- for example men and boys singing together. Grab a melody, either made up, worked out by ear, or from Alfred's, and play it with the left and right hand at the same time, an octave apart. That's what octaves sound like. (The ancient Greeks may have known other kinds of harmony as well -- their music was said by writers of the time to be emotionally powerful -- but I don't know if we have any information about what kinds of harmony they may have used.)

(Have we talked about octaves yet? Do you know how to identify an octave at the keyboard?)

Now let's consider fifths. I'm following a (very approximately) historical development here. Originally in the western Catholic Church, music in church was sung plainchant, with a single melodic line and no harmonies (and no accompaniment). Eventually they started singing a second line of the same melody but a perfect fifth away. This was being done by at least 900 A.D., but we don't know how much earlier it started. You may remember perfect fifths as the outside notes of the chords you have learned so far, when they're in root position. (We'll revisit root position later, and those early chords.)

You might try a melody again, playing the melody in your left hand, and playing a fifth higher with your right hand. This is somewhat of a learned skill: find the RH starting note, and from there on make it move up and down exactly the same amount as the LH. (Experts: for simplicity, I'm not worrying about tritones. Shey: if you have a B in your melody, you may notice some wierd sounds. More on that some other time.). If it's too much right now, forget this experiment with a melody, and just play some perfect fifths and listen to them. Here are the perfect fifths from chords you've already learned:

C G
D A
E B
F C
G D
A E

Experiment with them at the keyboard. See if you can find the perfect fifths that start on these notes:
Db
Eb
Gb
Ab

And here are two oddball perfect fifths (oddball because they have one white and one black key, instead of two white keys or two black keys):

Bb F
B F#

Do you notice any patterns about these intervals?

Listen to them. Sing the sound of the lower note followed by the upper note, and then the upper note followed by the lower note.

Look through your Alfred's music and see how often you can find these, either as notes of a chord or as notes in a melody. In particular, in a melody, look for the perfect fifth built on the name of the key it's in. For example, if the piece is in G major, look in the melody for G and the note a perfect fifth higher, D. If the piece is in A minor, look in the melody for A and the note a perfect fifth higher, E. And so on.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2155644 - 09/22/13 05:01 PM Re: Got totally stuck, need help [Re: Shey]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
Oh -- some thoughts on fingering. A natural way to finger fifths, for most people is with 1-5 (or 5-1). Depending on what else is going on in the music, you might use other fingers. Very gently, without straining your hand or wrist, see what 1-4 or 1-3 feels like.

I've been playing a lot of music that uses fifths and octaves in the left hand, e.g. C G C. I use 5-2-1 on these, so that's 5-2 for the fifth.

I'm building here towards building chords with more notes, but I'll pause here for you to absorb these starting steps.

On the fifths, eventually you'll know all of these through encountering them in music. You don't have to know them all yet.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (09/22/13 05:07 PM)
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
Page 6 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
LAST CALL - Piano Newsletter Ideas!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
76 registered (AZNpiano, AndrewJCW, BB Player, andwi, 23 invisible), 1296 Guests and 24 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75498 Members
42 Forums
156116 Topics
2292548 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Franz Liszt - Un Sospiro
by sislermi
07/24/14 02:42 AM
Need advice on buying a Yamaha Disklavier
by Lady
07/24/14 01:17 AM
Surge protection?
by TX-Bluebonnet
07/24/14 12:01 AM
Opening up an old Piano
by musicNow
07/23/14 11:11 PM
Unusual Big Key Depth Yamaha Motif Xs7
by Ivan Jochner
07/23/14 10:55 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission