Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#2138498 - 08/24/13 09:07 PM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Well, first you'd have to define musicianship (which I know has been getting a workout elsewhere), although I think it would be hard to find a definition by which many people would agree with that. In fact, if anything Gould, for all his gifts, probably fares relatively poorly, not well, on common concepts of "musicianship."
Yeesh. I can see someone questioning Gould's choices and taste. I guess I'd need to know what you mean by common concept of musicianship, but I'd say that Gould's musicianship was as good as it gets.

Most concepts of "musicianship," I think, are based heavily on whatever principles and practices are the norms of the time. I hardly need to tell you that Gould didn't particularly observe those (and I think we can say also that this is a lot of why HOROWITZ has been considered not very "musical" by some people). Gould's occasional very unusual tempos (sometimes purposely so, for unusualness's own sake -- he said so) and his unusual and often idiosyncratic articulations and phrasings are the main things that I think would have given him a hard time on being considered particularly high on "musicianship" -- I mean on the scale of top professional pianists, which was what we were talking about. There are also a lot of specifics we could add to those general things, like how he played Chopin sort of as though it were Bach, with the accompaniment notes almost as prominent as the melody as though they constituted an equal voice. Many professional musicians of that time, I think, would have considered that pretty unmusical for someone of his level.

Don't get me wrong: I didn't mean at all that I don't regard Gould very highly, or that I don't consider him extremely "musical" -- I don't discriminate against "doing it differently" (which Gould eventually said was the only reason to play anything) and I sort of even prefer it; all I was saying was what I was saying. After all, on another thread a couple of weeks ago, I said this (i.e. put him solidly among my "10 greatest pianists" of the 20th century).

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2138507 - 08/24/13 09:20 PM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Joey Townley]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19225
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Joey Townley
He may not have been playing much of the Romantic stuff but he certainly had it in his repertoire. A piece of conversation related to the Russian tour appeared in which he agreed with the interviewer, who had said, "You knew a lot of Chopin and Liszt but I imagine you weren't playing it." Gould: "Yes, that's right."
Gould may have had Romantic pieces in his repertoire from studying them at a very young age, but he played very little Romantic music once he became well known probably because he disliked most of it. So if he mentions having a lot of Chopin and Liszt "in his repertoire", he may well be talking about piece learned when extremely young. Of his 62 recordings listed in the Wiki article, only around four were by Romantic composers.

Performing works one dislikes rarely results in a good performance. Many people seem to like Gould's recording of Brahms Intermezzi but IMO that was kind of a one off for him.


Edited by pianoloverus (08/24/13 09:23 PM)

Top
#2138521 - 08/24/13 09:47 PM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Joey Townley]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21271
Loc: Oakland
Gould played the Brahms First Concerto.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2138523 - 08/24/13 09:48 PM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: BDB]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19647
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: BDB
Gould played the Brahms First Concerto.

Well actually the conductor didn't think so. ha

Top
#2138645 - 08/25/13 05:51 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Orange Soda King]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7756
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

Old man, maybe not musical ability, but in how Gould used his musicianship. Often times not very tasteful at all, in my opinion, though Gould was so good, he could have played more conventionally. He just chose not to.

I find him fascinating, but that's about it... Not a personal fan past that.


Funny you say that - I am a fan, and IMO he would have been amazing at Alkan, and more than once I've tried to imagine what he would have done with different pieces by Alkan.

Top
#2138646 - 08/25/13 05:52 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: BDB]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7756
Originally Posted By: BDB
Gould played the Brahms First Concerto.


And also that competition staple, Ravel's La Valse.

Top
#2138651 - 08/25/13 06:29 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: wr]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 852
Loc: UK, Brighton
Originally Posted By: wr
and more than once I've tried to imagine what he would have done with different pieces by Alkan.

Like the fugue at the end of 30 ans? Kind of seems right up his alley... laugh
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

Top
#2138655 - 08/25/13 06:40 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: FSO]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7756
Originally Posted By: FSO
Originally Posted By: wr
and more than once I've tried to imagine what he would have done with different pieces by Alkan.

Like the fugue at the end of 30 ans? Kind of seems right up his alley... laugh


Exactly.

And he might have done something really interesting with the strange atmosphere of the Sonatine, for another example of what I've imagined him doing.

And, based on his forays into the Liszt-Beethoven transcriptions, I've always regretted that he didn't do the Alkan version of the first movement of the C minor Beethoven concerto. Can you imagine? My mind reels at the thought, in a good way.

Top
#2138673 - 08/25/13 07:36 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Joey Townley]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 852
Loc: UK, Brighton
I adore all Gould did (yes, even his Chopin laugh ); I'm always shocked, still!, when I see opinions on this forum that range from calling his interpretations anything from untasteful to downright perverse...um...Gould brought it all to life, didn't he? Whatever he played he played as an organic entity and he wasn't afraid of upsetting anyone with an unusual take on a piece; he let the music breath a new configuration but, I think, it was never weirdness for weirdness's sake...I mean, um, he may have injected atypical elements into a piece, but only to get people to actually *listen to* rather than *hear* the music...but he never (*sigh* in my opinion laugh ) pushed a piece to the point that its relative and tied meaning snapped; the first movement of the moonlight sonata is a perfect example...I mean, faster than most, less dynamic range and certainly less hesitancy...but still perfectly in line with the soul of the piece. Um...Alkan...as it is, there aren't nearly enough people who've recorded Alkan, but I think with a dose of Gould that nowadays there'd be hundreds, if not thousands, more people interested than there currently are. The Liszt-Beethoven transcriptions are a good example, in my opinion, of course, of his ability to play romantic repertoire...whilst keeping it still very Gouldy...um...*a lot* of Alkan, if I really think about it, straddles some of those same grand soundscapes as those transcriptions (I hope you shan't disagree laugh ). He just...oh I don't know laugh Alkan, you really wouldn't have heard it quite the same way, would you? But then, I think, that applies to the vast majority of composers I can think of...the Russian avant-garde? Crikey...imagine his Zaderatsky, or Obukhov...and imagine the Rochberg sonata-fantasia! Pfft laugh Um...I *really* hope we have another Gould...just...I'll keep on waiting... laugh
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

Top
#2138707 - 08/25/13 10:34 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Joey Townley]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 164
Loc: Germany
Gould played all sorts of stuff privately, like Au bord d'une source, Chopin's F# Impromptu, etc. His later handling of romantic music is a bit like his trying to square the circle (except Brahms), but back when his blood was still running hot, he was a beast and would have shocked the Russians with Chopin just as with Bach and Webern:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgEaQo_7Bu8

Top
#2138735 - 08/25/13 11:45 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Ian_G]
Joey Townley Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
Gould played all sorts of stuff privately, like Au bord d'une source, Chopin's F# Impromptu, etc. His later handling of romantic music is a bit like his trying to square the circle (except Brahms), but back when his blood was still running hot, he was a beast and would have shocked the Russians with Chopin just as with Bach and Webern:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgEaQo_7Bu8


I was agape until I read the comment underneath explaining that that recording was a joke. Gould played the top hand with 1,2,3 while his friend played the left hand. That's not to say he couldn't do it, but in this case it's likely he didn't. We'll never know.

Top
#2138737 - 08/25/13 11:57 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Joey Townley]
boo1234 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 504
Originally Posted By: Joey Townley
[quote=pianoloverus][quote=Joey Townley]

But I'll ask the question again for those who might have missed it: has a concerto other the Tchaikovsky 1st/Rachmaninoff 2nd & 3rd ever won a pianist 1st prize in the Tchaikovsky/Cliburn competitions?


THis year's cliburn was won with prokofiev 3 and mozart 21.

Top
#2139123 - 08/26/13 09:35 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: boo1234]
worov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Paris
Quote:
Has Gould ever played (or attempted to play) a Rach or Tchaik or Prok concerto?


To my knowledge, Gould hasn't performed any of these concertos. However he recorded a Prokofiev sonata :



On the cover of the album, you can see he also recorded Scriabin, Chopin and Mendelsson.

Top
#2139159 - 08/26/13 11:06 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: worov]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1175
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
MY GOD!!!

The guy was a machine. I never thought to hear counterpoint in that piece, but there it is.

I really don't think I'd like his Tchaik or Rach at all.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2139171 - 08/26/13 11:34 AM Re: Could Glenn Gould Have Beaten Cliburn At the 1958 Tchaikov? [Re: Joey Townley]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21271
Loc: Oakland
There is a lot of counterpoint in Prokofiev's 7th, beginning with the close canon in the first movement. I do not think Gould's is a particularly good version. The range of dynamics seems terribly constricted.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
164 registered (ajames, 36251, Alex-SapRenovation, accordeur, 44 invisible), 1823 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75516 Members
42 Forums
156160 Topics
2293270 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Medelssohn on meaning in music
by phantomFive
38 minutes 45 seconds ago
Correcting Heavy Piano Touchweight in Grand Pianos
by Paul678
52 minutes 27 seconds ago
[AMAZING PIANO COMP.] Anyone able to transcribe it from ear?
by Weakky
Today at 12:29 PM
[AMAZING PIANO COMP.] Anyone able to transcribe it from ear?
by Weakky
Today at 12:21 PM
Best Keyboard/Piano 600 light up keys
by barabusm
Today at 12:09 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission