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#2138205 - 08/24/13 10:46 AM Weber grand
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 575
Please can anyone who is the know about the Weber grand piano tell me a bit about it?

This particular one has 75049 as it's serial number and is 2 metres in length (sorry I don't know what that is in feet, possibly 7ft?).

Where does it fall with regard to quality and what would it's equal be today?

Thank you,
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PianoForte Technologies
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#2138228 - 08/24/13 11:29 AM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20757
Loc: Oakland
There were a number of Weber piano companies making pianos. The most common was the one founded by Albert Weber, which became the flagship company of the Aeolian piano trust. They made pianos in New York and London. They gave up their position when Aeolian signed a deal with Steinway, and were good, but not great, pianos after that. The name is now used by Samick.

An old piano is what you make of it as a piano. As a label, the fact that you do not know much about the history shows its obscurity, and what value it has to the casual buyer of today.
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#2138258 - 08/24/13 12:29 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
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Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 575
Thank you for your help BDB!
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#2138343 - 08/24/13 02:45 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Nine companies made an instrument with the name Weber; 5 in America, 2 in Germany, 1 in Ireland, and one in Canada.

The Canadian company made 70,000 units over 100 years. For that one it would have Weber, Kingston on the fallboard.
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2138401 - 08/24/13 04:47 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 575
Hello Dan

Racking my brain, I recall the piano having the name "Weber" in brass lettering and underneath that, the name "London", in brass lettering too.

On the inside of the lid which opens backwards, it has something written about Aeleon too.

This particular piano has the wippen joined to the key. The key has a rocker capstan and a short sticker joins/links the wippen to the key/rocker capstan.


Edited by Mark Davis (08/24/13 05:02 PM)
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#2138494 - 08/24/13 09:02 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20757
Loc: Oakland
That would be the Weber & Co. of New York and London, founded by Albert Weber. With the brass lettering, it would have been made in London.
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#2138604 - 08/25/13 01:43 AM Re: Weber grand [Re: BDB]
Del Offline
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Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: BDB
... The name is now used by Samick.

Actually the name is now used by Young Chang.

ddf
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#2138614 - 08/25/13 02:58 AM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20757
Loc: Oakland
My mistake. I think it is because apparently Young Chang used the name for pianos made for Samsung, and I mixed up the Sams!
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#2138988 - 08/25/13 10:09 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 388
Loc: CO, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Please can anyone who is the know about the Weber grand piano tell me a bit about it?

This particular one has 75049 as it's serial number and is 2 metres in length (sorry I don't know what that is in feet, possibly 7ft?).

Where does it fall with regard to quality and what would it's equal be today?

Thank you,

Hello Mr. Davis,

This is a post from Mr David Burton some time ago that you might use as input, unfortunately, it doesn't subdivide out the London models. So it is maybe of limited use.

[#908681 - 05/09/02]

As a service to the folks on this forum I decided to list some of the better names of "Golden Age" American piano makers so that those who own them know what they have and may decide or not to sell or refurbish or rebuild them. The Golden Age (1875-1932) of American piano making was a time when the piano had few competitors in the home entertainment category. There was a confluence of the right materials, craftsmen and market. The result was many fine pianos which over time have worn out and in some cases have been considered for restoring or rebuilding, two words which have very distinct and definite meanings to me.

A restored piano is one that has been made playable, a rebuilt piano is an old piano that looks sounds and plays like it's brand new. The challenge for any genuine rebuilt piano is to outperform its original condition when new and to compete with and hopefully surpass anything that is currently being manufactured as brand new in its size, certainly a tall order, but one I have actually seen realized here and there. Here are a few ground rules:

First thing to remember, ANY piano is basically worth something or nothing as a musical instrument not as an antique. The exceptions are those pianos that are good musical instruments first but happen to be in fancier "art cases." Many of these are so gaudy that they would never fit into any modern decor.

Second thing to remember, ANY piano is going to be valued based on its present condition, similar to mileage on a motor vehicle. Only a competent piano technician can make the evaluation needed to determine the amount of wear and tear on these old pianos.

Third thing to remember, SIZE MATTERS. Big grands, but not necessarily the biggest, make the best candidates for a complete rebuild. But not all of them. There are certain Steinway player pianos with long keys that no matter what will, "play weird." There are other examples that a good piano technician should be HONEST enough about to tell the owner or use those all too rarely heard words, "I don't know."

Fourth thing to remember is that upright pianos have a few disadvantages over grands; their actions are usually less responsive, the market for uprights has been in decline due to the appearance of new cheap (argggh!!!!) baby grands. I know, people will buy them even when they aren't worth it, but that's another subject. Among the old names the makers of upright and player pianos outnumber those that made grands by a factor of at least 10 to 1. Upright pianos were cheaper and easier to make and sell. That's still the case. And it does matter to me whether someone sinks a small fortune into an old piano just for sentimental reasons. I do not approve of it, think it's damn foolish and most should be told they'll never get what they put into it, especially true of the uprights and too small grands.

Fifth thing to remember, the vintage of American Golden Age piano making runs from approximately 1875 to 1932. Anything earlier is probably such an antique that it isn't worth rebuilding and anything after probably isn't what the originals were for a number of reasons. So we are mostly concerned with pianos in this range of dates.

I decided to rate my list with asterisks. This is an informal kind of rating. It very well may be that one of my low scoring brands may be rebuilt to rival a higher scoring one, but name recognition played some role in the rating too.

OK, so here we go.

BALDWIN, * * * Cincinnati, the only major name not associated with a piano designer, still among the top tier, artist grands only, models are numerous, some discontinued, more often found models include the D, F, L and R.
BEHNING, New York, a Kohler & Campbell precursor, mostly big uprights but a few parlor grands may be out there, forget about their baby grands.
BENT, GEO. P., * * Chicago & Louisville, an important piano designer, some of his best work bears his name, most have the name CROWN. Avoid anything but parlor grands (usual size for these is 5'5" to 5'7") and nothing made after 1928.
BJUR BROS., New York, aother Kohler & Campbell precursor, same cautions as for Behning.
BLASIUS & SONS, * * Philadelphia, better reputation than Behning or Bjur, more standard action geometries, nice parlor grands and huge uprights are best candidates.
BOARDMAN & GRAY, * * Albany, NY, the standouts here are the huge uprights made around the turn of the last century (1890-1910).
BRAMBACH, * New York, a Kohler & Campbell precursor, mostly grands. Those that are too small or with odd action geometries must be excluded.
BRIGGS, CHARLES C., * * Boston, an important piano designer, only parlor grands bearing his full name.
CABLE, HOBART M., * Indiana, only a few sturdy grands from the late 20's qualify.
CHASE, A. B. * * * Ohio, another sleeper, excellent parlor grands.
CHICKERING, * * * * Boston, The oldest American piano make, named for Jonas Chickering, one of the pioneer names in American piano building, this firm was at the top of its game when Steinway started in 1853, that same year the first big Chickering factory in Boston burned down and was replaced by the building out of which has been carved a few nice condominiums. Chickering stuck to straight stringing their grands well into the 1870's. The ones to look for are the overstrung kind. Made pianos in Boston into the 1920's (best by some opinions), others made in Rochester, NY. are just as good in my opinion. For a time they also toyed with metal action parts which never worked well. If you run into one of these figure on replacing the action or most of it, which in most instances is a good idea as newer actions have more adjustment advances.
CHRISTMAN, * New York, some people out there like these, nice parlor grands and larger are occasionally found.
CONOVER, * * * Oregon, IL, the only real standouts here are the grands made between 1890 and 1929 after the designs of Frank Conover and Hobart Cable. The big grands can be turned into fairly interesting pianos.
CROWN, see BENT.
CUNNINGHAM, * * * Philadelphia, yep, the same outfit Rich Gallisini works for, made their own pianos until 1981! The ones that are candidates for rebuilding are their large old uprights and parlor grands.
DAVIS, GEO. H., * * Boston, one of the principals of Hallet & Davis and a pioneer piano designer. A few grands bear his name, most are pre-1900.
DECKER BROS., * * * started in New York, moved to Chicago, great pianos before 1915, especially their grands.
DOLL, JACOB & SON., * * New York, another important designer, made grands in the 1920's that are acceptable for rebuilding.
ESTEY, * * New York, prime years are between about 1890 and 1925 with many nice parlor grands made.
EVERETT, Boston, not by any means all are worthwhile, some rebuilders have rebuilt small grands (not babies) to display their craft rather than how good the original piano was and only those made between 1900 and 1925 should be considered.
FISCHER, J & C, * * * New York and Buffalo, Charles Fischer was the designer, excellent grands and large uprights between 1890 and as late as 1932, made a lot of pianos so there should be plenty still out there.
HADDORFF, Rockford, IL, made a lot of pianos under a score of stencil names, choose carefully, before about 1925, what I like about them is they were controlled during their formative period by a quality maker.
HALLET & DAVIS, * * * Boston, another very old name, best pianos between 1885 and 1930 but choose carefully, best are large uprights and parlor grands.
HARDMAN, * * New York, another pioneer maker was Hugh Hardman, some are under Hardman & Peck, best are the usual suspects; big uprights and grands, some tell me that their products between about 1901 and the outbreak of WWI (1914) are better than the rest.
HAZELTON BROS., * * New York, an artisan family with high standards, their best products are uprights and parlor grands, after about 1890 but before 1920. Some of the gaudiest art cases were made by these folks.
IVERS & POND, * * * * Boston, similar to Hallet & Davis, best between about 1890 and 1925, the usual suspects. Feature a heavy overbuilt style shared with many other good Boston makes. Also made Poole. I find this somewhat humorous and some have suggested that these pianos have some association with water. Another piano make not associated with I & P was Waters, no kidding.
JANSSEN, Elkhart, IN, included for educational purposes only, the precursor to the present Charles R. Walter, but not with as good a reputation (though I still haven't seen or played any Walters), there is sort of a well constructed but limited musical capability with these. They tend to hold up pretty well, which probably accounts for their longevity as a company, but I wouldn't consider them as real good rebuild candidates. I've never run into a Janssen grand, don't think they ever made any.
JEWETT, * * Boston, in its various incarnations, based on the pioneer piano makers Wade Jewett and George Allen, the one's to look for are after about 1895, a Steinert by any other name, see STEINERT
KNABE, * * * * * Baltimore, the third of the big three (Steinway, Chickering and Knabe) and the only make the Steinway family feared, founded a generation before Steinway by pioneer piano maker William Knabe and Henry Gaehle, Knabe had a couple sons who kept it going. There's a story in Dolge's book about how Knabe risked his company on a promotional tour during the Civil War that paid off. Excellent grands and big uprights.
KOHLER & CAMPBELL, New York and North Carolina, one of the first piano conglomerates (1896), choose VERY carefully.
KRAKAUER BROS., * * * New York, This was a maker who stayed in business by concentrating on a producing a smaller quantity of well made pianos. Their parlor grands are quite good.
KURTZMANN, * * Buffalo, NY, 1900-1925 is the best period.
LESTER, * Philadelphia, a vary large company that made a wide variety of pianos of various quality, made a few military pianos for service in the Far East, I've heard of parlor grands made during the 1920's producing surprising results.
LYON & HEALY, * * * Chicago, more of a retailer than a maker but their reputation for what they chose to put their name on still stands in good stead by many. Their output was sporadic, grands made during the 1920's were by Schulz (Chicago area) and good solid Packard (Indiana) made their uprights. They are still in business but confine themselves exclusively to the making and distribution of harps.
MASON & HAMLIN, * * * * * Haverhill, MA, began as a reed organ maker late in the 19th century, then made pianos without pinblocks (screw-stringers). They tried many innovations. Everyone knows them now as the great sleeper of them all, perhaps the best piano scales ever designed. All are worth restoring and rebuilding except the screw stringers which many tuners can't seem to tune.
MATHUSHEK, New Haven, CT, founded by a pioneer maker Frederick Mathushek. A true innovator in the manufacturing of pianos, some like the big uprights and the few grands that exist are often uncommon designs.
McPHAIL, * Boston, another Kohler & Campbell precursor, good huge uprights.
MEHLIN, * * * New York, Paul Mehlin was of the generation of old Englehardt Steinway and did as well quality wise without Steinway's ambition, excellent grand pianos from 1900-1925 or so, some prior to this have gaudy art cases.
MILLER, HENRY F., * * * Boston, named for the founder, a great pioneer piano maker who influenced both Mason & Hamlin and Ivers & Pond, and no doubt influenced their quality caliber and standing as musical instruments. Excellent results with grands going back as far as 1875 but not later than about 1925. Some have gaudy art cases.
PACKARD, Indiana, made good solid strong uprights, best years 1900-1925.
SCHAAF, ADAM, Chicago, some think these are good.
SCHOMACKER, * * * Philadelphia, another sleeper, made some excellent parlor grands, they limped along through the Depression until 1941 before going under but their best products were probably made between 1900 and 1929. The only maker I know of that featured gold plated strings!
SCHULZ, OTTO, * * Chicago, made organs as well as pianos but was known for good workmanship, made grands for Lyon & Healy.
SOHMER, * * * New York, just down the street from Steinway and there were a lot of cross influences, founded by pioneer maker Hugo Sohmer, many art cases made too, lower production, emphasized quality.
STECK, GEO. & CO., * * New York, founded by George Steck, best era is 1900-1929.
STEINERT, * * Boston, but started in Athens, Georgia! was sort of to Boston what Lyon & Healy was to Chicago, Onofrio to Denver or Sherman Clay to the West Coast (Cunningham in Philadelphia made their own); each had pianos made for them and put their name on them. But Steinerts, particularly their parlor grands from just after the end of World War I until Steinway made them stop making them, are sort of special, when and if you can find them.
STEINWAY & SONS, * * * * * New York, of course, but don't bother with the long keyed former player pianos unless you intend on restoring the player mechanisms too.
STIEFF, CHAS. M., * * * Baltimore, the other Knabe, and quite old too, went under the year I was born (1951), fairly good pianos from 1890 on, stick to grands only for best results.
VOSE & SONS, * * Boston, founded by James W. Vose. One finds some very striking modernistic cabinetry on some of these pianos, prefiguring Danish modern. They can be made into much more than they were when new if you choose the right one, grands only, as early as 1890 but no later than about 1925.
WEBER & CO., * * * New York, founded by Albert Weber, whose grands rival the best of their period going back into the 1870's but no later than 1932. Albert Weber was a very talented and ambitious man who pitted his skills against Steinway and lost, virtually working himself to an early death. He left a wonderful legacy as some of his great grand pianos are still out there waiting to live and play again.

I left some names off if to my knowledge they made only uprights as these are not prime candidates for a complete rebuild as the vintage parlor grands certainly would be. There are still things to consider like structural integrity that only a good piano technician could spot which would make such a project not worthwhile, especially cracked plates and split rims. But, If you can get the body of a grand piano with its plate, rim, keyboard and bridges (whether usable or not) for nothing or about the price of hauling it away, you can have everything else replaced and end up with something that can rival or even beat the better new pianos out there IF you have the right rebuilder and are willing to wait about a year for it all to get done and at up to half the cost of something brand new.
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http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/
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phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2139037 - 08/26/13 02:15 AM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 575
Thank you very much Phacke.

Very interesting and helpful.
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Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
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#2139148 - 08/26/13 10:43 AM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1302
Loc: Conway, AR USA
RE: Piano rankings/grands

I have worked on most of these vintage pianos. Weber needs to move up a notch. Baldwin at least that if not more. To rank these grand pianos on a par with the likes of KRAKAUER BROS., et al., is wrong. Could go on, but do not wish to hijack Mr. Davis' thread.


Edited by bkw58 (08/26/13 10:45 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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#2139168 - 08/26/13 11:28 AM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20757
Loc: Oakland
I believe one has to evaluate the individual piano, and often, the individual owner. The quality of many makers' pianos varied from time to time, as well as from model to model. Nowadays, people use these names as if they say something about the piano, when the same name may be used by an entirely different manufacturer. That is certainly the case with Weber, which even in its latest incarnation, is probably significantly different now from what it was when Young Chang first bought the name.
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#2139206 - 08/26/13 12:55 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: Mark Davis]
Tuneless Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/13
Posts: 90
Loc: AZ, USA
If the grands of a manufacturer are so very different from their uprights, I am sorry Mr. Burton did not rate the grands and uprights separately. I would have been interested to know where in his system my Conover upright would have landed.

I have no intention of ever rebuilding it, but reconditioning is what I am working on myself, and I have plenty to do that should make quite a difference.
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Tuneless = Don't play piano and couldn't tune a guitar, much less a piano.
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#2139221 - 08/26/13 01:33 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: BDB]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: BDB
I believe one has to evaluate the individual piano, and often, the individual owner. The quality of many makers' pianos varied from time to time, as well as from model to model. Nowadays, people use these names as if they say something about the piano, when the same name may be used by an entirely different manufacturer. That is certainly the case with Weber, which even in its latest incarnation, is probably significantly different now from what it was when Young Chang first bought the name.

Yes, it is.

When YC bought the "Weber" name it was put on piano that were otherwise identical to the standard YC production. During the reincarnation of the company -- starting some five years ago -- the fundamental design of all of these pianos has been changing. They are still similar but the "Weber" and "Albert Weber" pianos have been gradually moving up-scale some. Their scaling and some components are no longer identical to the YC-branded pianos.


ddf
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2139273 - 08/26/13 03:21 PM Re: Weber grand [Re: Del]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1302
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: BDB
I believe one has to evaluate the individual piano, and often, the individual owner. The quality of many makers' pianos varied from time to time, as well as from model to model. Nowadays, people use these names as if they say something about the piano, when the same name may be used by an entirely different manufacturer. That is certainly the case with Weber, which even in its latest incarnation, is probably significantly different now from what it was when Young Chang first bought the name.

Yes, it is.

When YC bought the "Weber" name it was put on piano that were otherwise identical to the standard YC production. During the reincarnation of the company -- starting some five years ago -- the fundamental design of all of these pianos has been changing. They are still similar but the "Weber" and "Albert Weber" pianos have been gradually moving up-scale some. Their scaling and some components are no longer identical to the YC-branded pianos.

ddf



Points well taken, but the post I was commenting upon was specific to ranking "from the Golden Age (1875-1932) of American piano making..." [He ranks from * to *****.] What BDB says is correct. However, for example, just comparing apples to apples a Baldwin "artist grand" (he ranks***)beats a KRAKAUER BROS grand (he ranks ***)hands down - and especially an IVERS & POND (he ranks ****).


Edited by bkw58 (08/26/13 03:47 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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