Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Just Checked out a Richmond Studio upright

Serial #230561, but not much info on the internet
on how old this one might be.

http://tucson.craigslist.org/fuo/4630372717.html

The bottom 2.5 octaves had all their tuning pins replaced (and a few others in the upper octaves).

After a quick aural tuning (no computer! Just comparing octaves, 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths! and cleaning up unisons), I found the pins to be decently tight.

Minor cracks in the bass bridge, but since the bass strings were not badly out of tune, it appears they are still stable.

Some dampers not working correctly, and several hammers missing
the 3rd string, but that's all repairable.

A small section of separation of the soundboard from the ribs, but
didn't look too bad.

One of the hammers was missing. I found the shank, but couldn't
find the hammer anywhere. Reblitz recommends asking a local piano store if they have any extras they removed from old pianos.

I assume all you pros will not approve of this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-Wood-..._DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ed5b26190


Either way, I'd carve and shape the new hammer to get a similar hammer weight as the adjacent note hammers that surround the missing hammer
note. Yes, I read that other thread!

Tonally, it didn't seem a like a big jump from my Kimball
spinet, but that's probably because it wasn't tuned with
Tunelab (although my fast aural tuning was a huge improvement over
where it was previously!), and many of the hammers weren't correctly
aligned.

So I might pick this one up.

Ok, I'm ready to be slammed by the pros, as usual!!

Not a pro and not intending to slam, but just not sure what you're about or after.

Pianos around here in the midwest with that many problems are usually $100 cheaper than that one.

If your point is to get one to learn to repair, you can probably get something comparable or a bit better for free.

If you put in the time to learn the skills and put in the correct parts required to make that a decent instrument for yourself or someone else, you'll quickly have more in it than it'll ever bring on a resale (if that's actually your point).

A perfect (and I mean perfect) used studio upright around here from a dealer averages around $600 with none higher than about $900. And dealers when they take those in never pay more than half of that price to the seller. And individuals selling usually will not do much better on a private sale. Studio uprights can even often be found with zero defects for around $150. I've bought two to give away, one a flawless Yamaha that didn't even have grooves in the hammers yet and probably hadn't been played 20 hours in its 20 years, that I bought for $50 just to give away to a kid with some musical talent. I bought another similar, also in perfect condition to give away for $200. (I paid a good bit more for a couple of grands that I used merely for the experience of learning tuning, hammer hanging, restringing and voicing, not for commercial benefit, as I'm no pro, but for my own satisfaction of learning, because I enjoy the work as much as playing.)

My point is that every piano is unique and needs to be evaluated *in person* as such and within a known context of its purpose. But one thing that is common these days is that even quite nice pianos from even good names can have very little market value, though they might have some real utility to the end user where the real value is reliability of playability. Someone who's willing to be patient and shop a little can get condition and reliability up front for a modest price. Which is why pianos with cracked bridges, tuning pin issues, missing strings, missing or worn out or mis-matched hammers, and all the endless other issues have essentially no market value at all and are often free.

You've posted about a few issues-loaded pianos here lately. I've not read any but your most recent posts as I took a hiatus from here for several years. I'm not clear about your purpose for the posted pianos, but none I've seen in your links have been any sort of diamonds in the rough. Even if you have the skills and put in the necessary work and money for parts they would need to be reasonable instruments, they'd still have little market value upon completion.

So any value they'd have would be pretty much as a learning ground for developing skills in repair. And for that, it doesn't really matter much at all what the name is on the fallboard nor what anyone else thinks of the make. Even if you start out with an upright with a fine name, and regardless of the amount of work needed (or not) it won't have all that much market value as a used instrument in individual hands, though it might have some value as a learning ground for skills--something no later buyer on resale has to pay for when good used instruments at dealers go begging for bargain-basement prices.

If your interest is in learning the trade properly, people here might encourage you to take advantage of the resources available to learn through joining trade organizations (like PTG) to attend meetings to learn, encourage mentoring, provide pointers to some directed reading, and often enough, when they're all but too kind, telling you how a proper repair can be made, if you show that you're seriously interested in learning and doing things the proper way that yields a musical instrument with some utility for yourself or someone else as a musical instrument. (PTG's archives provide a wealth of information for anyone willing to learn.)

Nobody here is going to say, "Yep, that's the one. That one's worth the investment of your time and money." No one here is going to lie to you about that.

You don't state your purpose for the piano and any potential question about its value can not be answered without knowing that context, really. And, really, it isn't any such piano as you've linked to that poses any specific question anyone can answer, as they're all basically time and money pits even while they're a learning ground. Pretty much anything *can* be fixed and one might even say the worse the piano, the more opportunity to learn--but you're only learning something of value if you do it right. Otherwise, the end result is worth just what you paid for it even if you got it for free.

Is your interest in learning the trade and the technical skills to do the job right? Only you can answer that. Is this piano worth $100 for that purpose of learning? Maybe, though I still say you might save $100 and get the same learning ground. Will this piano be worth much more if you repair it? I say, don't bet your rent on it.

If your interest IS in learning, this one or pretty much anything like it with nearly any name on it or even no name on it can be worth your time to learn--if you learn to make proper repairs. But it won't be worth more than the skills you gain. You won't recoup anything reasonable for your time in it plus the parts that would be required to make it a reliable modest instrument. You'd only ever recoup something for the time and money spent on something like this if you learn the proper skills to do the job right and put in the years to develop a reputation for good work and a clientele.

If you're like me and just enjoy learning and doing the work for your own benefit and pleasure, it's a *hobby* and there again, no one else's estimate or opinion of value matters in the end, though respect for your skills and commitment to learning and doing things right can be satisfying.

It pleases me to hear my pro-touring pianist friends tell me my own piano beats anything they've played on the touring circuit and in recording studios and know all my time spent learning to hang hammers, voice, and tune amounts to something to someone else's fingers and ears. I sometimes think they come only to visit my piano as they usually play all day and night into days and we do little else but play.

My point wasn't to please anyone except myself nor make money. And I spent a solid five years studying, reading, doing, and networking and talking and LISTENING to pros, both online and in my hometown, and their advice, and talking by phone at length with manufacturers about their parts. I'm glad I took the time in my life to do that. But I started with the piano whose innate voice already spoke to me as "the one" before steering it back with time and parts and work to the best of its potential. It pleases me every time I sit down to play it and whenever my touring/recording friends (and even more casual players) visit so I can sit back and enjoy them enjoying my main piano. And I know the value of my piano is in the owning of it for my own playing pleasure as even while it's arguably the only serious competition in America to S&S, the market won't pay an S&S price for a forgotten name.

My point about that last is that if your point is just to learn to please yourself and not seek commercial gain, if your expectations and standards for perfection are high, you still have to learn the skills to do the job the very best it can be done. And the bottom line on that is that, to me, only an instrument that already speaks to you is worth the time and effort required to do the job right. Only you can judge that part. And even while a good instrument is worth it for the joy of its voice and the feel of its keys, it can STILL not have much, if any, commercial value.

You can answer the question better than any of us here can as to whether any of those proposed Craig's list pianos has any value to *you*. We know they don't to mostly anyone else, since they're always cheap and frequently free.

All these pros don't focus their time mostly on S&S, M&H, and a small number of others (rarely)(almost exclusively) grands for no reason. There's simply no profit margin on much of anything else.

Yeah. What Chick said. Thank you Chick.

Chick, you don't have to look far in to Paul's postings to realize what the trajectory of [his] intents are, and based on the comments of the piano with a bass bridge issue, it seems to be unfortunate. I have a hunch, after a couple of PM's from other participants that the support and personal affirmations Paul is trying to garner from the pros is waning now that the intent is more apparent. Some just don't want to do things the proper and professional way, but have no qualms charging customers for it.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Chick.

Contrary to what has been assumed, I DO
wish to learn the "proper" method of repairs, even
if the "proper" method is not always agreed upon
by even the seasoned pros. I have attempted to
contact some PTG techs in my area, and have asked
a local re-builder if they needed any help, to no avail,
but I will continue to ask and seek advice.

Although I tune pianos for money part-time, I would get this
piano only for the pleasure of learning and discovering and
restoring it, just like when I bought and restored
my Kimball spinet. I eventually sold it for a small profit,
because I wanted something with a little more low end, but
you could hardly expect to make much of a living doing that!

I would also like a cheap beater piano in my Arizona room, where I
could play without disturbing my roommate.

Agreed that only I can decide if it might be worth it. I should
have bought one of the cheap fixer-upper, beater grands I posted here, but the sellers sold it to someone else, no doubt for more than my low-ball of $50. For someone wanting to learn, in my situation, it would have been worth at least $200-300, especially since it had been looked over by a professional tech, so the issues were known.

It would have been the cost of an entertaining, and FUN education!

I do love pianos!