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Hello all,

Sorry to start another Rach 2 thread but so many of the others are very old or the discussion has moved away from the topic.

Some background, I completed my piano performance degree in 02 and now just play to unwind. I don't have any coach or teacher, but usually don't have many questions about what I'm playing but I'd appreciate some knowledgeable opinions.

In the first movement, after rehearsal mark 8, at the Piu Vivo, there's the recurring two quarter note phrases following the double or triple octaves. Omitting the sixteenths for a moment, I've been playing this left hand 1, right hand 1. However, watching a performance, it looked like the pianist was using just the right hand for the held quarters. I tried it out and could play it either way I think, but I'd like to know what others who are or have worked on the piece are doing.

Sorry if my description is confusing.

I bet he is cutting those double/triple octaves short in a hurry to reach for the quarter, or giving a slight gap before reaching for the quarter.

is this the section you are talking about?

I use my right hand, now that I think about it. That said perhaps having the left hand play these notes would make both melodies sing out more.

With three parts going on there at the same time, if you can make all three parts sing, then you are an excellent pianist indeed.

It can't be the right measures, based on the description, but I have no idea where in the score there are "triple octaves"...?

It is a few measures after the above.
Where there are repeated octaves in right hand. First two octaves and then three octaves. He is asking about the alternating left right hand sixteenths right after the repeated octaves. Whether to play that Gb and F with left and right hands respectively as written or take both with the right hand thumb.

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the next "Pui vivo" where the tempo is marked 80 to the half. I'd put a screen cap but I'm having issues uploading it to the server I use. "Triple octaves" was a poor choice of words as I didn't think of how that would be interpreted. I was referring to the series of octaves in the right hand start with Cb, the fall chromatically, and are played as triplets once on "A"

Hakki nailed it in his last post. Though it's not so much for my own playing as I'm comfortable playing the score as written. I'm just asking because I watched a video and it looked like the pianist was playing both quarters with the right hand, and if so I wanted to know if others took that approach. I gave it a try at the keyboard; it's not that much of a dash for the right hand, especially since it's coming off a staccato eighth. But I'm not sure I'd see any benefit unless you had very small hands and you couldn't play and hold Gb and play the following Bb Cb Ab.

The pianist is obviously talented, the video in question is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWMGzbd8xao

From the angle I can't be sure - maybe I'm way off, but it looks to me like the the right hand moves to play both quarters.

Ha, well, I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that you'll get your answer because the pianist you're asking about is one of our forum members!

Alan?

That pianist is trying to hurry the accompanist along. Come on, catch up accompanist!

Really!? That's great! I hope he sees the thread and can put my question to rest!

Oh, ok.. I was stacking octaves vertically in my head. The repeated octaves. Got it.

I always played this passage as written, alternating thumbs. I don't hold the quarter note. Use the pedal.

If you'd like, here is a perfect angle of Yuja Wang playing that passage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gnAQIRqvVYQ#t=371

In the video you posted, the kid does play RH first. I find this very cumbersome and far too slow for the passage. I've always heard it much faster than he played it, and I'm not sure with the triplet octave, that you can play it and get your RH down and octave for the next beat accurately, and with a consistent dynamic level. Seems like adding difficulty for the sake of difficulty when this particular crossover isn't very hard.

For reference, here's an audio clip of me playing this passage in my early 20's. Not very good, but at least it will show that, using the pedal appropriately, it won't muddle up the sound (if that was a concern). https://soundcloud.com/derulux/rachmaninoff-piano-concert-no-2-mvt-1-clip/s-4HKks

Great sound clip, Derulux. And thanks for the link.

I'm glad you see what I'm seeing. I wonder if another possibility of starting with the right hand might be to use a series of 2-1 fingering to ensure the quarters come out. I don't think I'd adopt it myself, for the very reason you pointed out - it would be hard to land consistently (for me anyhow).

If you go with the redistribution, you may want to redistribute the former RH quarter to the LH. Like I said, I really don't think it works effectively here, but if you decide to go for it, that's something to consider.

Hi, Jamie from Canada, I am very sorry for not replying to your initial question. To be honest, I haven’t been checking the forums lately because I thought discussions have died down. Obviously I’m wrong, so I apologize for the late response.

It’s been awhile since I played Rach 2, but I will try to answer your question as best as possible, but I think the previous posts are already plenty helpful to get you to the right track. As for what I do, I play RH first when the repeat octaves are C-flat and A. I take the alternating thumbs (which is better, I admit, I should be doing this the whole time) on the other two segments when the repeat octaves are B-flat and G-sharp. This is because I find it hard to play the first quarter note along with the three accompanying 16th notes; that is my problem. I just find it easier to take the quarter note with my right thumb.

Derulux gave a great solution, and I think you should use it. I would stick to my strategy until I find a way to play the first quarter note “properly.” Maybe when I relearn the concerto would I consider this advice.

Again, it’s been a long time since I visited Rach 2. I apologize for the belated response, and I hope this helps!

I think that if you want to play it at a quick tempo it is best to begin with the left hand as written instead of the right. I just went and played around with it and I think it is much more difficult to do it with the right hand.

What helps me keep this in tempo is keeping my hands close to the keys when moving from the octaves to the melody notes. It really helps if it is a direct movement instead of an "arc."

I took a quick video of how I take the passage, first I play it in tempo and then I slowed down so you can see how I take it.

Forgive the low volume (it is late at night and I live in a condo) and any sloppiness, it has been a while since I worked on this concerto and my keyboard frankly is not great for quickly repeated notes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctDFis5RlhA&feature=youtu.be


ABCVermonter, I know exactly what you mean about finding it difficult to play those three sixteenth notes right after the thumb if you keep it all in the LH. The challenge is keeping them even and melodic for me. I just try to stay as relaxed as possible and bring out the thumbs more, which seems to help.

In regards this piece, and many others, Earl Wild (my mentor and my muse) taught the following; that is ALL of the pianists of the 19th century, and early 20th century, adjusted fingerings between the two hands based on the morphology of their particular hand.

That is one of the many reasons why Urtext is "bogus" (Robert Winter UCLA).

Accordingly, this is how I finger this section with my small hands and thin spindly fingers:

In measures 1-3, I take the F natural (soprano), on the first note of the fourth beat, with the thumb of the left hand, which then gives me a straight octave arpeggiated roll in the right hand starting on the thumb. The next measure, I play totally in the left hand.

Next, I play the rest of the section as written, with the exception of measure #12, which once again I play exclusively with my left hand.

Once gain, the normal way to play, utilized by pianists for hundreds of years, is to re-arrange notes/fingerings according to the morphology of your particular hand.

Yes, I agree. That's what my professor in Moscow conservatory always told me. And I never hesitate to adjust the hands/fingering to music benefits. After all, only music matters :)))

So everyone is clear what section we are talking about:

http://postimg.org/image/9mml0ntwx/

While I agree with you that it it is best to re-arrange fingerings to best fit your hands and capabilities, you have to be careful to still play what is on the page. There is a lot going on in this section, and some of the techniques talked about in this thread could prevent the pianist from being able to execute.

Even if you use the pedal to substitute for holding the melodic quarter notes (it is entirely possible to just hold them properly), you still have to be able to place the melodic emphasis on that note and execute the slurs. Taking both of those notes in the left hand or taking the first note with the right hand hurts your ability to do that. Thumb to thumb notes will always be more disconnected and less melodic compared to notes played by two hands or adjacent fingers.

That is the main drawback in your taking measure four exclusively in the left hand.