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So as I have thought about it, there are very few models that have a long history. Models get changed all the time because of advancements and such. In fact sometimes even where they are built changes. The only thing one could say is consistent is the companies themselves. No one was claiming that the Yamaha C series didn't have enough history. Why? Because of the G series and the Yamaha Corporation's history. You could do this with Kawai, Baldwin, you name it. Of course when they all put the same name on the fallboard.

The Kawai factory has been around forever as well as Steinway & Sons. I think it is safe to assume these two know how to build an institutional quality piano. It really is a silly argument. By the way the Boston grand pianos range anywhere from $22k-50K. Not exactly inexpensive.

You say this forum is very well informed, and for the most part, I agree. However, there is always the newcomer reading through these forums that are not. I believe it is important that products are represented by those who know the most about them.

Boston and Essex are alike in many ways, but in many ways different. Boston is an institutional quality piano. Period. Essex make an institutional quality upright model that is fantastic. The Essex piano line as a whole is not marketed to institutions. They very different instruments.

I have played piano for years and even have some music on pandora radio now I have not found your experience with playing either of these instruments. I have found the "tone and decay" as you say very pleasing. You may think I am a little bias, but those that know me, know that I am fair in my assessments.

Goodbye, thread topic.

Hello, noise.

More diversity in schools would be nice. However (and I can only base my impression on my own small corner of the world--Toronto) the reality is that most music schools today would laugh at this discussion as they are so bogged down with budgetary restraints and declining enrollment that the idea of providing a wide spectrum of pianos is just impossible. Most of the schools I've visited in Canada and the U.S. are happy if they can just keep their 30 year old piano stock relatively in tune and minimally regulated. I'm sure they'd love to throw a Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Forster, Grotrian etc into the mix for the benefit of their piano students but it just isn't going to happen in most schools (that I've seen)

However, there are many institutions that are currently buying top tier instruments. While some consider being a true All Steinway School by buying only Steinway and Sons pianos, FOR THE SAME MONEY they could by a mix of Steinways, Boseys, Bechsteins, etc.

In the US it's tough to generalize. Some state schools have declining enrollment simply because their state budget allocations have been curtailed forcing them to offer fewer class sections and pay fewer instructors. Yet with that, their admission standards have risen causing them to be considered much more selective than in the old days. So the image of the school goes up while the level of service to the state's young people goes down.

Other schools have declining enrollment for the simple reason that they can't attract enough minimally qualified applicants even though their admission standards are the bare minimum permissible.

A lot of the differences also relate to endowment. Two very dissimilar schools were cited in Sally Phillips' report in the Piano Buyer article that Steve cited in his opening post: Curtis Institute and Middle Tennessee State University.

Curtis has an endowment of 130.5 million dollars and an enrollment around 160 students. Middle Tennessee State has an endowment of 58.9 million dollars and an enrollment of around 20,000 students. Though the Curtis endowment is not huge in and of itself, it is gigantic when considered in light of its enrollment. The Piano Buyer report mentions that Curtis is not only All Steinway main line brand on campus, but that it places a Steinway main line piano in the residences of all piano students during their time at Curtis. You can conclude that Curtis Institute operates from a core belief that Steinway and Sons instruments are the best possible instruments for their piano students, and that whether you agree with that or not, they are entitled to their own opinion on the matter. Thus, the few piano students who crack Curtis' admission code and keep up with the progress expected of them during their stay are treated like royalty.

Middle Tennessee State, with it paltry endowment considering the size of its enrollment, went All Steinway to rid itself of the headache of an aging fleet of worn instruments. Thatcould not be accomplished through normal state budget allocations. They needed a viable fund raising campaign, and Steinway assisted them to that end both with a name that would resonate with donors and fund raising tools to get the word out to the right target audience.

Middle Tennessee also bought into the idea that Steinway technical training in the servicing of their new piano fleet would insure that the new pianos would receive a better regimen of care than the old ones they were replacing. Christopher Purdy, a respected technician who maintains the Steinway pianos and Steinway designed pianos at Middle Tennessee State, is quoted in the Piano Buyer report as saying that the technical support offered through the Steinway Technical Training Academy as part of the purchase "has complemented my 30 years of experience nicely, and helped provide me with everything I need to keep a large music school playing." Again, whether or not you agree with the rationale for the one brand decision, you have to respect an institution's right to make up its own mind when it comes to the use of its own money.

What counts is the "motivation" behind it.

In the real world individuals make up their mind based on personal preference, budget, availability of pianos etc.

Institutions go often by other factors, none of which seem to make always sense.

Let's not forget for a certain budget you can always get good piano and good service, especially on a competitive basis.

When schools are making their decisions [which they are perfectly "free" to do..] it would be nice to see some competitive bids by others.

To me this is 'real shopping' guaranteed to secure best quality and value for any buyer.

Including [especially..] schools and institutions.

Norbert

In the real world, a vendor makes the sale or doesn't make the sale.

I cited two examples, each very different. Are you suggesting that Curtis Institute and/or Middle Tennessee State University made their decisions with the wrong motivation?

No, because I don't know what their 'motivation' was or could have been.

Nor do I care.

However, would I have been their hired administrator, I would have made sure they got the best bang for their buck.

Just as I do for my own customers....

Norbert

If you don't know and you don't care, why did you post this.

"Institutions go often by other factors, none of which seem to make always sense."

You put motivation in double quote marks, then single quote marks. You seem to be suggesting that institutions have a hidden agenda in making their purchases. That might be true if they had you as a hired administrator, but fortunately they don't.

Turondot:
I admire you for your zest battling the battles you do.
Except they leave most of us here somewhat detached and..er..bored!
Now, what was it again yer were trying to say in your last post?
Norbert

Let me guess, you would suggest they buy:
C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller

Perhaps you should come out with an "All Norbert School" program.

This is the second time this week you lot have derailed a thread with your squabbles.

Consider yourselves warned that a third episode will result in a time out.

Get this thread back on track.

turandot , just happens to be one of the most interesting,
sane, logical, informed,
non-piano industry guests here on this forum.

he may not please or humour
you

and so it is.

OK. This is not getting the thread back on track.
Case closed.