Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Strings with steep angle at the tuning pin

Hello everyone,
What do you think about backing the tuning pin when the string is at such an angle as to "ride" the coil when leaving the pin?

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=58CA106187A9D46E!7769&authkey=!ABrSMOJEdbZo2Dc&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

In this piano the string rightmost in the picture broke and was replaced by a new one, and the pin was left about 3/16 further out than originally. I am concerned that the one at its left might also break when tuned.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and comments.
Martin

Martin,

How much will you have to lift that note? You could always drop the others if the one in question is not too low.

Ian

Bourniplus,

You have the right idea. I am surprised no one else said so. It has been an often used remedy for this kind of piano. If you don't that string will eventually break. Every single one of the Yamaha P-22 models that out school system bought (at least 30 of them) had strings #12 & 13 break. Only those which I loosened the string and then hooked the string over the coil did not, with the exception of one which broke years later. The appearance of the coil is nearly normal. You have to look closely to see that is has been done. It is a trick that Jim Coleman, Sr. RPT has recommended, so if he says it is proper, that is good enough for me.

I managed to splice a few of these but I won't give blood for them any more. None of my slices ever broke again, however. I just order a new string for which supply houses have a different specification. With those, I put on two coils and leave the pin further out. That does create some stability problems, however. Not only will such a heavy string take a year or more to stop going flat, when the tuning pin hangs so far out, it tends to bend down a bit after the string is pulled up to pitch. It will then go flat.

If you have to put in a new string on any of these, you need to install it first before you do anything else and pull it at least 20 cents sharp. When you next check it, it will be at least 20 cents flat! Keep pulling it up as you are there and leave it 20 cents sharp when you leave. Don't be surprised if the school teacher calls you a month later and tells you that the note involved "plays the same note as the one next to it" as I have received calls that said the very same thing!

Bill, thanks for replying,
I'm not sure I totally understand what you mean by "hooked the string over the coil". What I had in mind was reinstalling the string with the pin futher out, is what you're saying different from this?

Bourniplus,

It is difficult to describe. You loosen the string sufficiently so that with a string hook or even just a screwdriver blade, you can lift the back edge of the coil (nearest the cast iron frame) so that it crosses over the coil and that the wire leading up to the coil is on the front side of the coil. When retightening the string, you usually don't have to do anything else but if the coil is spread out any, you tap it with the screwdriver blade while it is still loose enough to cinch up.

When it is fully tight, the part which crosses over is usually hidden from view. The string now leads to the coil much closer to perpendicular to the V-bar and thus avoids that steep angle and the rise partially over the coil which contribute to the breakage.

This will ultimately be a far easier and quicker fix than the one you propose. While your idea can work, there may be two problems with it: You may overly loosen the tuning pin, since you had to back it out quite a way. The other is that since it is so far out, the string tends to pull down on that tuning pin that is hanging so far out. It may not stay on pitch unless you correct it a few times. It is a massive string, so it has enough tension to actually bend a pin downward that is hanging out so far. Ultimately, however, that instability can be overcome.

The trick I offered really takes only a minute or so to accomplish. I have used it also on certain spinet pianos that had many strings with that same, steep angle. Once they start breaking one after the other, the solution to prevent further breakage is to take perhaps 15 minutes to hook all of the back edges of the coils over to the front. The result is a near normal appearance and no more breaking wound strings.

It got to the point with me that whenever I encountered a Yamaha P-22 of a 1990's vintage, I would first perform that maneuver on strings #13 & 14 because there was a virtually 100% chance that both of them would eventually break if I didn't. It is an otherwise fine school piano and many homes have them too. To have to replace either or both of these strings is far more trouble than it is worth. You will be merrily tuning along and then, "BANG!". The slightest amount needed to raise the pitch will do it.

Then what do you do? I was once tuning such a piano at a school when two officials from the Opera for the Young group came into the room while I was tuning the piano for the performance that would be held at that school the next day. The string broke as I attempted to tune it with a loud BANG! and it rattled as it shot out partially from the bottom of the piano. Both of their jaws dropped and their eyes opened widely as they looked at me with and expression of horror on their faces.

I briefly explained that this particular make, model and vintage of piano had a history of those two particular strings breaking. It was string #14 that broke, so I quickly did the coil hook maneuver on string #13 which did not then break (and it never has since). But what kind of impression do you think that leaves with anyone who may witness it? And what did they think of me when I left their performance piano without a key that would make any sound?

As I mentioned before, it may be possible to splice such a string. I know that it is because I have done it a few times successfully. But the distance between the V-bar and the tuning pin is barely one inch. The wire is also a very heavy and thick size which make it difficult to perform a successful splice. The risk of injury is very high unless you have some thick gloves on and then your dexterity is compromised. I have failed as many times as I have been successful. I have also had previously spliced strings break some years later. The splices on those Yamaha P-22's are the only splices I can recall breaking. Other splices I have done have lasted for more than 30 years. I have decided that I won't attempt a splice in that circumstance any more.

The technician breaking any string on any piano does not sit well with the client. It was not broken before YOU tried to tune it and YOU broke it! No other technician ever did, only YOU! You can explain all you want but it doesn't make anyone happy about the situation.

The cost of the new string would be about $30 but the year or more period of instability is a painful reminder of what YOU did that day and MADE them pay for YOUR incompetence! At least, that is what I would expect the client may really think.

I have thought for some years now that anytime a single replacement of a wound string is required, it is a lose-lose matter. You can't ever really charge enough in many, if not most every incidence to cover what you will have to do to keep that piano sounding as it should. If it is a single string like the Yamaha P-22 dilemma, there will be a note or even two that do not even play until you show up again with replacement strings. You can't mute off a single string until it stabilizes.

It is going to be out of tune when you leave it sharp and it will go flat overnight when the piano is not being played and be flat the next time they try to play it. It will never stay in tune for very long, no matter what you do. It will, of course stop going so flat so soon after repeated service calls to tune it back up but a year or more for it to stop going flat is no hyperbole or exaggeration. Neither is going a full half step flat in a month's time.

Try the hook the coil trick. It is quick, it is effective and may well keep you out of a lot of trouble!

I believe the stress of the string being bent over the bottom of the coil is a bigger problem than the string being bent up at the bottom of the coil. The stress of going over the coil is pretty severe. I remember new 45" Steinway from years ago that had the string bent over the bottom of the coil, and those strings broke right at that point.

Ok, now I understand. I may well do that to string #12 when I go back to pull the new string to pitch. I'll have to practice first on another instrument though.
By the way this is on a Samick I'm guessing from the late 90's. The design may be similar to the Yamaha P22. I wish it was in a school instead of a private client. The customer had it tuned regularly, and this happened on the first time I tuned it, after having been recommended to him by his son's teacher. As you said, it never looks too good, and I certainly wouldn't want to be "the guy who breaks strings". I try to remind myself that "it's not YOU who breaks the string, it's the STRING that breaks"... but you know how it is. Also, I usually let every customer know about possible string breakage, but not that time.

BDB, I hear what you say about having the string cross the coil, but would you have another suggestion when facing something like this, especially if there is some resistance when trying to pull up the pitch? Just hope for the best?

Lube the termination pin with protek. I often do that. Don't over-pull them. Small jerks on the tuning hammer are better than a slow pull.

Pins can be loosened, pop out the coil, back out the pin 3-4 turns, re-insert the coil, and tune to pitch.

High tension on the bass strings often contributes to breakage.

Bourniplus,

I wish I had a picture of one of these that has the coil crossed over. If you could see it, you would know why it prevents breakage. Out of the dozens (literally) that I did this to, only one broke some years later. After all, the primary reason in those Yamahas that the two strings broke was because the string itself had a too high tensile strength to support standard pitch. The angle problem only made that worse. The coil cross trick changes that angle to a minimum.

I have also done the same to some older spinet pianos where strings started breaking one after another. Upon crossing all of the remaining coils, no more broke, even year after year later.