Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards I fiddled around on CA97, LX17, and GP500

I went to Cordogan's music in Geneva, Illinois, and they had all of the top of the line pianos. I feel guilty, because I don't plan on buying anything soon, and the gentleman gave me so much attention. I didn't have so much time, but I played for about 10 minutes on each with at least the main piano voice.

I thought the CA97 sounded the best overall. It could be the placement. The Casio was bookended with another Casio and the LX17 was against a wall with another piano at its side. The Kawai CA97 was not surrounded.

The CA97 sounded beautiful and felt very natural to play. The Casio's action was a little over sensitive for what I'm used to. I heard a little too much metal in the tone, and there was something else vibrating - maybe the Piano behind it.

The Roland LX17 felt as good as the Kawai, but I was disappointed in the sound. IMO, the modeling was not at the level of Pianoteq, and it sounded like it was coming from speakers, not from a piano. There was also almost a distorted sound at higher volumes. This surprised me.

With the Roland and the Casio, I thought, my Pianoteq coming through my KRK speakers and subwoofer sound better. With the Kawai, my mind didn't compare. It just felt like I was playing a piano.

Anyway, I'm a professional keyboardist, not a concert pianist, so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I couldn't compare the escapement features on each piano.

I'm waiting for the FP90 to come in the mail. As it's action was on par with the Kawai, and I'm using Pianoteq, I think I'll be happy with it. Maybe the piano voice will sound better in my home. That will be a sweet surprise.

Forgetting about Pianoteq and external speakers. If I were buying a furniture style digital piano for my home, I would buy the Kawai for sure.

That Kawai CA97 and the Roland LX17 requires some deep pockets.

Oh yeah. But this experience gave me the impression that the ES8 would stack up very well against the FP90. It is $200 more + the stand and pedal board are more too. The FP90 stretches my finances to the max even though I got an incredible Black Friday deal on it.

Where was the CS11? The NU1? You`ll have to have words in that shop. Now, they`re nice instruments which have the top o` the range feel of the LX17. You start playing `em, they really do sound like decent acoustics uprights.

I think the Roland designers want their pianos to sound brash (for lack of a better word) when played hard. There's a quality that's not quite "metallic", but lots of dissonant harmonics are being produced at high volume levels (that is, at high MIDI velocities). I found that changing the keyboard Touch to "heavy", to reduce the MIDI velocity level, helped to counteract that. I haven't done enough playing on the new "SuperNatural Modelled" pianos to hear whether they're the same.

The calibration of "tone change" vs "volume change" is quite subtle. I don't think Roland is _wrong_ in what it's doing, but it may be _different_.

Keep us informed about the FP90, please.

I tried all of those plus the CS11 and while I thought they were all very good, I preferred the Casio. Had it a couple of months now and still very pleased with my decision.

I don't really get that POV; I played the CA97, the CS11 and LX17 during one sitting and thought that the LX17 was just in another league---sound wise. I think whether you like the sound is subjective and might heavily depend upon what you've played and grown used to.

If you really want to, you can heavily adapt both modelled piano and sampled piano to sound how you prefer; however, the speaker/amp units can't easily be changed.

The disappointing thing for me with the CA97 is it's sound system (compared to the Rolands): it's not as nice to play as it is to listen to via headphones; further, the CS11 sounds so much better. In a line up, I'd say the speaker/amp combo's line up comparatively as: Roland LX17 > Kawai CS11 > Yamaha CLP585 > Kawai CA97

In your situation, if you intend anyway to buy a slab and hook-up pianoteq, you can judge solely upon the action you like best. Here, I also disagree with your assessment: to me, the Roland Action---PHA-50---is almost equal to the Grand Feel 1, but not on a par. I'd say the PHA-50 is probably better than the ES8 action, but not much in that (depends upon whether you favour heavy vs lighter action).

With reference to the portable slabs: do you want midi controller capability or on-board speakers? Me thinks the RD800 replacement will occur in a year or so; further, if I had to choose between the FP90 and the MP7 + pianoteq, I'd go for the Kawai (the organs/e-pianos in it are superb, and the GUI I think better for live play). What are your thoughts on GUI and other requirements?

I sort of like that 'brash' Roland sound, since it's there when you need it (key-pounding), but does not get in the way of a more subtle/legato sound when playing softer. It's like a singer deliberately and judiciously cracking notes for a more brash and undefined quality. Of course, a good singer should still be able to sing those very notes in a silky, sublime, and defined matter when called for. So maybe it's not so much the piano that is brash, but the pianist too sensitive?

The Roland modelled piano tone is so much better than Rolands SuperNatural Sampled sound which for my mind is dull comparative to the Kawai and Yamaha. Watched a youtube video yesterday of LX17 vs CLP585 vs GP500 ( Youtube test) - interesting to read the comments (everybody differed in preference). I'm sure if you fiddle with the LX17 settings, you could set up a preset to play the subtle/legato sound.

and
Apparently, not only the sound itself is subjective, but also how it sounds through amp and speakers. Because regarding your sound system vs. headphones comment: For me it's exactly the other way round.

I very much prefer to play my CA97 without headphones. So much so, that I always play without headphones unless it is so late that I have to use them, or if the practice I'm doing would just be too annoying for the rest of the family. I always make sure to get some play (and practice) time in before the evening is too late and I have to switch to headphones.

Don't get me wrong: I think the CA97 sounds great and is very playable with my headphones, but it is just so much better without...

(Headphones are Sennheiser HD 558).

So, it's all a matter of taste and preference.

Some people have commented their dislike of Kawai headphone sound quality. I think the subjective nature of it means that it's almost impossible to take advice from someone without first testing out the instruments. It's interesting that Kawai have chosen to collaborate with Onkyo to make the CSX1 piano - obviously they are interested in improving speaker/amp quality in their really high end models.

Still think that the CS11 is the Kawai to go for: the speakers are the same, but the positioning and instrument dimensions give it a better sound. If you haven't tried it, might be worth a play. Perhaps you'll still prefer the CA97.

Hello Doug,



Have they? Can you provide some examples please?



Third party advice can be useful, however it's no substitute for playing and hearing an instrument for yourself.



The CS-X1 was a prototype exhibited at Musikmesse to highlight the partnership between Kawai and Onkyo. I'm confident that all of the major digital piano manufacturers - not just Kawai - are constantly seeking and developing new technologies in order to improve the quality of their products. The amp/speaker combination is an essential part of any product, so I believe it makes perfect sense for Kawai to partner with one of the audio industry's leading companies to realise this goal.

Kind regards,
James
x

Kawai headphone issues: I have read in passing a few posts. I have no idea which ones I read in the past, but a terse search on google reveals issues you have helped deal with.
CA67 post
CA97 post
TBH, I don't think these were the posts I read, as the issues came up in incidental threads about other issues, and may or maynot have been resolved by yourself (sorry, not much help there). Next time I see one, I'll PM you the post URL :-).

Onkyo are awesome: let's hope the project is a great success, and Kawai role out some of that improvement in other models.

Kind regards,

Doug.

You've brought up a good point. I was going to test the CA97 and CS8 at a store out of town this last fall until an injury sabotaged that plan. Now I won't be able to test them until April, but as I've noted in a previous post I was able to play the NU1 in a room designed especially for pianos and the tone and feel were fabulous. I won't buy it, as it only had one sampled piano voice that appealed to me, and $6,000 is way too much to spend for that, and so I'm hoping that Kawai will fill the bill overall.

But that leads me to another point. To be sure, tone and feel are paramount considerations for any digital piano purchase, but by no means the only issue to take into account. We must also determine a piano's overall value. For me at present, the user-friendliness of the Kawai CA65 in using Piano Marvel and Pianoteq can't be overstated. And that same exact setup will be present in the CS8 or CA97.

I'm attracted to the polished ebony cabinet of the CS8, and the speaker system of the CA97, but I have a feeling that the tone and feel of either of these pianos will fill the bill for me.

Hello Doug, thank you for your reply.



(emphasis mine)

May I ask if you checked these threads before referencing them?

The first raises a query related to the improvements offered by Kawai's 'SHS' feature ("is there significant difference in headphone sound?"), which a CA67 owner confirms ("sound is more pleasant with default SHS settings than when SHS turned off").

The second requests advice on what kind of headphones to purchase to purchase ("Are there a certain type of headphone that will work best with SHS? open, closed, brand/model,etc?").

I don't believe either post/thread could be considered an example of 'issues', nor do I believe they demonstrate "a dislike of Kawai headphone sound quality".



Okay...



Thank you, however with the greatest respect, I believe it would be preferable to provide better examples to support your claim in the first place, rather than offer to do so after the fact.



Now this I can agree with!

Cheers,
James
x

I'm not surprised the LX-17 isn't up to the level of Pianoteq, as the piano has much less processing power than a computer. It's the same as with the CA97 being not up there with the better software librarie.

I own an LX-17, and Pianoteq on an MP7 with two Focal Alpha 80 monitors as well.

The comparisons I can make are:
- Yes, Pianoteq is technically better, and it has more options.
- Still they're hard to compare because there are some presets in Pianoteq I really hate, and some I really like. Picking the best one from Pianoteq, compared to my custom LX-17 setup, there is no 'better'; they're only different, at least to me.
- On the same headphones, both sound fine to me, if each one is set up to my liking. (Headphones are the Sennheiser HD 598.)
- On speakers, the Pianoteq+speakers can't hold a candle to the LX-17. While the Focal setup is definitely MUCH louder, the LX-17's sound placement is MUCH better. The LX-17 not only has sound spread from left to right, but also up and down, which makes it sound much more spacious than the Focal setup, which sounds really left-right. I've actually narrowed the stereo field in both Pianoteq, as in the MP7.
- While the MP7 zounds very nice on its own, having much better resonances than both Casio and Yamaha in every regard, it can't stand toe-to-toe with Pianoteq. The LX-17 can. You can push them to more extremes on Pianoteq though. (Try the largest resonance settings on a 10 meter piano. It'll blow your head off with resonances, but it's also useless.)

The one thing the LX-17 should NOT have, is speaker distortion. Not even on the loudest volume. Mine hasn't.

The distortion might have been the wall or the keyboard to the side vibrating.

I have no personal issue with listening to my MP7 through headphones. The sound I get seems dependent upon the quality of headphones used.

I shouldn't really comment upon posts about complaints by other users concerning individual models from Kawai or other brands: having seen comments in passing doesn't really add to the conversation (and creates a mood of bias), especially when such posts are near impossible to find, and the context thus being undefined.

Part of the issue is that certain brands are getting reputations---both good and bad---of the back of hear-say; however, we have no way to look back and qualify those individual complaints/comments by model, situation, personal expectation not met etc, if these comments are hidden in unrelated posts.

So I must apologise to Kawai James for spreading hearsay about headphone playback quality in Kawai models.


I wonder if in future, Pianoworld forum might evolve to be able to allow tagging of individual posts so that they show up in web searches. Even better, if it could be possible to convert part of a thread into a new post when it diverts temporarily to another topic, so that such conversations could be easily defined by title.

Does anybody else like the idea of stratifying the Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards forum to provide a sub-forums?
For instance: stratifying for individual brand and then 'brands by model', i.e., so that issues and cures/work-arounds can easily be found by users sharing similar issues. E.g.,
Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards-->Piano brands-->Kawai-->MP11-->user posts.

For instance: stratifying for users looking for new instrument advice....E.g.,
Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards-->Digital pianos by price-->Under $1000..

etc.

To me, phone jack output is one of those things that should simply be gotten "right" at this point in life, including having a set of common consumer headphones output at a reasonable volume without obvious distortion at a reasonable default volume level. My MP11 does that beautifully, and what is really surprising is that some of my other DPs just don't. I understand there is design and manufacture variation out there, but if it ends up being a material and opaque hassle for the user, that is just a total failure somewhere along the line.