Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
115 registered (Anita Potter, Al LaPorte, armani, Andre campana, AZ_Astro, 29 invisible), 1146 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 14 of 14 < 1 2 12 13 14
Topic Options
#2203051 - 12/26/13 09:56 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2110
Alfredo, again, you lift my post out of one thread and put it in another with a different context.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

All to resurect a thread that all have lost interest in since your last posting eight months ago. That sounds desperate.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be attempting to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.

_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
(ad 568) PTG Convention 2015 Denver
PTG Convention July 15 to 18 Denver
#2203080 - 12/26/13 11:05 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: rXd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

rxd,

Let me quote my post:

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi All,

Not long ago, someone was asking indirectly what pre-tuning meant, and I think I owe the answer: it means preparatory tuning and it refers to this thread and to a part of its contents.

Below, I am tracing a post by rxd, which I think is worth a comment, for better or worse:

Re: Up a 3rd, Up a 3rd, Down a 5th vs 4ths and 5ths Sequences [Re: UnrightTooner]
#2201636 - December 23, 2013 03:11 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
The trouble with using SBI's is that nobody, but nobody, even those who stake their reputations on tuning by fifths, ever sustains the notes for five seconds while waiting patiently for three beats (or whatever it is) to present themselves. Only to tediously repeat those five seconds with each and every fifth however many times it takes to get it right.

Fifths and octaves or the more compact fifths and fourths was intended for musicians who probably couldn't hear the subtleties of thirds to roughly tune their own instruments before the main event of practicing.

The more sophisticated methods were developed by tuners for whom tuning is the main event.

An RBI can be tuned 'on the fly' with the beat rate established and the pin set with one blow lasting a second or less.

It is transpiring that while most tuners can now hear major thirds, there may be many who cannot hear, or have never thought of using or referencing minor thirds in tuning.

{{At this stage, I had thought that contiguous minor thirds may be too complex but, just spur of the moment, I thought of using A-F# then A-C-D#, then using D#-F# Maj sixth as a check then refining the C but this still will always have one note tuned vicariously}}.

As I said about twelve posts ago, before that memorable graph debacle, it is possible to tune more than half of the temperament octave with direct reference to only the starting note.
If there is a mistake, it can not possibly be cumulative and there are more than enough cross checks between the first half dozen or so notes to ensure complete accuracy and cohesiveness.
Yes, it requires tuners to have a comprehensive knowledge of the temperament scale on decent pianos to accomplish it and it might not be a good teaching method.

Alrhough i don't always use it, this method has seemed to me to be the most logical answer to the age old problem of cumulative errors and the tedious backtracking to correct them.

It was thought necessary, in WT's to use a cumulative series of fifths and octaves to arrive at a progressive harmonic relative purity of the major and minor keys towards the tonal centre. It works well that way but such a progression is totally unnecessary in ET.

I find it incongruous that a proponent of WT's has abandoned tuning exclusively by fourths and fifths whereas at least one of the main voices opposing WT's still argues for this now archaic and unreliable system of fourths and fifths.


By reading that Topic and the above post I get the idea that RBI's and SBI's are still considered separately, as if we could tune "ET" with a sequence that uses either RBI's or SBI's.

If that was the case, if the attempt was to define the single type of interval that - on its own - can avoid cumulative errors... I would not agree, as I would find that approach to be wrong.

And there, about "cumulative errors", I find one more wrong suggestion, namely that a 12_notes "temperament sequence" enables to achieve "ET" across the whole keyboard, as if there was no need to check 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

If it is true that some of us have understood the relevance of 12ths and how significant 15ths and the "expansion" of the first octave will be, does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

And, before I forget, in light of some recent comments and video offerings, there are two more issues I would like to deepen on, hopefuly together with you: how the hammer technique (and string's tension) might affect the position/output of partials, and consequently all matchings; secondly, those cases when the pitch/frequency drops, after unisons.

Grandpianoman, probably you will be "recruited" :-)

To All, enjoy these Holydays.

Regards, a.c.
.


And here is your reply:

Originally Posted By: rxd
Alfredo, again, you lift a thread out of one context and put it in another to gain brownie points for your own ends.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread and I am still resisting. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be trying to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.



I hope you re-read the above and understand that:

a) I have already got my "points" and do not need to gain anymore (here);
b) I never think I should evaluate other readers' intelligence, as that (for me) it is simply arrogant;
c) I do understand what the thread I quoted above is about, as well as what you wrote;
d) Times may come, when we manage to focus on theoretical and practical issue as one, despite (or aside) the Topic;
e) You, like any other poster, may be involved in this thread (or any other) on the basis of what you write, provided you can manage your own obsession and be respectful;

f) That's true, it might look like I am recruiting "...people" for a "...cause" of mine; actually, I am peacefully trying to share my experience and some results that may concern the "cause" of ours;

..."...publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable."

Well, rxd, you decide, but (as mentioned) try to take it easy, nobody here is undermining your authority.

My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2203176 - 12/26/13 03:50 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2110
Dearest Alfredo.

I have answered the questions in your latest post in my post immediately before it. But I will expand on it. Expand being a poor choice of words as will soon transpire. .

Much of my work consists of tuning the same 15-20 9' grands. Sometimes it is my lot to tune the same 9' piano 12 times in four days. Now, the accepted way to tune a piano is from the middle outwards.

I can choose, for the last 8-9 of those tunings to check the piano from the outer octaves inwards towards the middle. Or to see how it works out from the fifth or sixth octave outwards and inwards

For some kinds of musical situations I will begin with a narrow third octave and tune both ways out from there. I never put in an interval in the temperament range, however large I want make it or whichever range I want to tune it, without considering how it will invert or transfer into all different parts of the instrument.

I have thus luxury. I can either do a touch up tuning or a refinement tuning starting wherever I feel appropriate. If I am on attendance, I can hear how the piano is being used. If I am only called for the tunings, I arrive early so that I can hear a few playbacks. I prefer to call it refinement rather than touch up.

After so long doing this class of work, beatrate memory has to kick in. I would be a fool to ignore it and not use it as another tool.

No tuning is ever scheduled for any more than an hour and sometimes some of the initial tuning is cut short waiting for the piano to arrive, traffic being the way it is. They always arrive reasonably in tune and within pitch parameters, Often coming direct from another engagement or having been properly tuned before despatch from the basement.
An accurate beat rate memory and the ability to work from the most in tune sections of the piano is very helpful when time is limited.

I have never been the sort of person who blindly follows rules so I can't possibly ever get bored with my lot. But I do know that not considering the whole piano when setting the temperament area will slow down the tuning.

What's this to do with other tuners? Most tuners have access to a 48" uprite that has standard beat rates (or a 6' grand) that they can give a half hours attention a few times over a week to practice making refinements to a piano that is already, to all intents and purposes, in tune. Get away from the idea of touch up tuning and think refinement. The more refined the tuning, the more upkeep it takes.

We're talking about fast beating minor thirds being difficult to hear and so many don't use them in tuning but fast beating major thirds in the fifth and sixth octaves should be concentrated on because the are almost always ignored. Perceptive people and fine microphones perceive too fast a M3 in the fifth and sixth and seventh octaves as a screaming in the tone. Most all regular tuners ignore these.

Of course, anything too fast in the upper octaves has its genesis in the temperament octaves so any unevenness there will become intolerable to the finer ear higher into the treble. Any tendency to over stretch will soon be exposed with this test. of course, 17ths must conform and pianos can be very accommodating with the twelfths in the treble. Fifths, of course, definitely tempered but sounding cleaner with all six strings.
My colleagues seem to prefer the single octave purity over the double octave purity whenever there is a choice.
I prefer just a liitle warmth toward the bass but only if I'm scheduled to see the piano again in a few hours.

Tone regulation in the middle octaves is very important. It is harshness there that can give the perception of flatness in the treble. As can habitually listening to over stretched pianos. This can come from early efforts in tuning that are not controlled by a mentor who is not also caught up in over stretching.

If a piano screams out to be stretched!!! it can be done if all the aforementioned parameters are met.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2203606 - 12/27/13 02:33 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi,

Thank you, rxd, for expanding on your practice, I hope that other readers will find that stimulating as I do.

Also in my case, here in London, the time window I am given is one hour and, as you say, many times it gets even less... Anyway, back to my point, it is my opinion that a 12-tones temperament (ET or WT) cannot describe our tunings, for reasons that are mainly related to having/wanting to tune the whole piano.

Leave theoretical issues aside, it is (also) for practical purposes that I would suggest to enlarge the usual "temperament" (and beat-references) to (at least) 19-tones, so including 12ths, and even better if young tuners could have double-octaves as a "check"... Don't you (and All) think that this would be more adherent to our modern practice, that this would enable to keep control of intervals (including 17ths) into all different parts of the instrument?

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (12/27/13 04:29 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2264668 - 04/20/14 06:28 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi All,

I would like to address a special acknowledgment to Grandpianoman. With his 'amateur' dedication and will to improve his expertize, GP has been able to point out a dynamic issue, something that (IMO) all professional Piano Tuners should be aware of:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2259968/1/What_causes_3_strings_to_be_fl.html

To All, Happy Easter. a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2265154 - 04/22/14 12:42 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2452
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Well thank you Alfredo.

I could not help but think if one were to have many of these 'flat' notes after tuning, it would not sound ideal.

Next time I tune my pianos, I am going to pay particular attention to this phenomenon, and try to minimize it with the suggestions in that posting.

Top
#2386580 - 02/15/15 10:15 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi All,

For some time I have been thinking of asking for your help in order to make 'objective' something I can observe. Considering a string and the tone it produces, I observe that partials can be spaced, and intervals can be better related to each other, depending on the tuning-hammer technique.

In other words, what I believe is that the original scaling of a piano can be somehow re-adjusted, meaning that there is a leeway, some 'room for manoeuvre' (is this idiom correct?) we can use, in a way re-ruling the relations amongst partial sounds of different strings.

What makes the difference would be how I/we get to the 'spot', whether we get there from a lower or a higher, or a much higher pitch.

No doubt, other colleagues may experience this. Actually, if you know of any research on this, or available data, please let me know.

I do not have the necessary equipment. Would any of you (pro or non-pro) like to get involved in this experimentation?

What might be needed is:

- some tuning-hammer skill, enough to be able to get to the spot;
- an ETD that indicates the spot;
- a reliable device that can record and analyze individual partial frequencies.

Comments, questions, suggestions and corrections are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2386799 - 02/15/15 09:15 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2110
Originally Posted By alfredo capurso

...............
My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.


Alfredo, this is what we call a loaded question. I can hear barrister Rumpole standing on his hind legs and saying, sotto voce; "Oh, don't lead, old darlin'". It's a bit like asking "when did you stop beating your wife?". Sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Many of your questions are of this nature.

It would be most unkind but it could be read as a reflex question or even a silly question but there are no stupid questions- only stupid answers.

However. I will answer it from the point of view of someone who is currently tuning a two octave temperament with;

"Quite frankly, in a word,... No!".

Doesn't it depend on who tuned it and how and with what intention for the rest of the piano?
An electronically set 5 adjacent notes can offer the greatest flexibility for the whole piano. Anybody ever tried that? Hybrid temperament sets all the typical tuning notes at their stated pitches (A,Bb&C. If anyone measures it, everything will be precise. Free Tuning apps are common these days. Often incorrectly read but commonly used by anybody, nonetheless. (with a well laid temperament this happens anyway).

I experiment all the time. I don't think I have ever tuned a temperament of any size the same way twice. All of it within the description of a darned good tuning. I often move a note to where it makes a difference to all the intervals involved but when I put the unison in there has been hardly any movement from where it was previously. Perhaps the whole thin is too subtle for practical purposes.

I can stretch to the max. Any fool can do that, most fools do as somebody has said. I can make a cogent argument that it might be best ( more reliably?) done by machine.

I have been elevated and called an ivory tower tuner but doesn't the tuner of domestic pianos have a duty get to know how to tune different ways when members of a musical family play other instruments that may be used in collaboration with the piano and still be within the bounds of ET.

I still want all my options open. Fortunately, for solo piano, big, vulgar romantic stuff, I can tune for max resonance but when other instruments are involved in ensemble, I don't need nor want all that resonance and can tune in a way that automatically does that by accommodating the intonation and far less stretch that is typical of all the other orchestral instruments. not many seem to understand that.

This week, I attended four masterclasses over the past two days given by principal players of the Berlin Phil. So I am highly elated. I attend orchestralasterclasses regularly, have done ever since I was involved with high level music education. mostly given by principals of international orchestras but this was something special.

Because of the last minute fly in fly out nature of these classes and the constant room usage, we had to use week old tunings with ten minute refinements on each at 440. Whenever the brass players demonstrated on their own instruments fresh out of their cases, they were beautifully in tune with the piano but when I heard them on TV tonight I didn't catch the tuning note but they were an average of 15c sharp which indicates 444-operating pitch,( rarely the same as tuning pitch in any orchestra). I had to leave early in each case do I didn't get a chance to talk.

I am continually immersed in collaborative music making with the piano. I briefly checked the 10ths and 17's on a professionally tuned harp today by a top flight orchestral harpist. They were almost exactly the same size that I aim for in piano collaborative work. That is as narrow as practicable . I was there to refine the piano it was being used with and I had permission to check pitch. Normally it's the other way round, the piano is tuned before the harpists come in.

My point is, there is no one way to tune a piano. To attempt to condemn one method as archaic is to attempt to call what the Berlin Phil is doing as archaic. The principles are still the same as when I was studying music full time. In fact my joy today comes from that. (OK, there are those who condemn the whole concept of a symphony orchestra as archaic)

Beethoven to Wagner articulation for trumpets is tha same with the Berlin as I was taught fifty years ago. Most trumpet players currently adopt a sloppy imprecise style, even with major orchestras. I had a long discussion about this with a well known conductor, being careful not to reference a recent recording where this was evident.

Thats what makes the Berlin so great. Calling something archaic in this way is a perjorative use of the word that can easily be overlooked when answering. Same with unreliable. Unreliable for what? As I have said and you have quoted, a temperament is set with forethought to how it works with the rest of the piano. It helps to be familiar with the make and model of the piano and even the idiosyncracies of a particular piano such as the winding tensions of a particular set of bass strings. These things are noticed when tuning the same make and model every time and hopefully rembered for each piano.

Having said that, larger pianos are more similar fhan different and smaller pianos will develop this own optimum tuning If tuned regularly by the same conciencious tuner.

There. Another long post. Sorry. It wasn't a simple question

_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2387211 - 02/16/15 11:08 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2110
Originally Posted By alfredo capurso

Hi All,

For some time I have been thinking of asking for your help in order to make 'objective' something I can observe. Considering a string and the tone it produces, I observe that partials can be spaced, and intervals can be better related to each other, depending on the tuning-hammer technique.

In other words, what I believe is that the original scaling of a piano can be somehow re-adjusted, meaning that there is a leeway, some 'room for manoeuvre' (is this idiom correct?) we can use, in a way re-ruling the relations amongst partial sounds of different strings.

What makes the difference would be how I/we get to the 'spot', whether we get there from a lower or a higher, or a much higher pitch.

No doubt, other colleagues may experience this. Actually, if you know of any research on this, or available data, please let me know.

I do not have the necessary equipment. Would any of you (pro or non-pro) like to get involved in this experimentation?

What might be needed is:

- some tuning-hammer skill, enough to be able to get to the spot;
- an ETD that indicates the spot;
- a reliable device that can record and analyze individual partial frequencies.

Comments, questions, suggestions and corrections are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.

This attention to distance between partials may not be as spaced out as it seems at first glimpse. There is certainly a difference in perception for me that does depend on which direction I approach 'in tune' from. There was some work done in the 70's that was reported in the American PTG magazine that gave measured numerical evidence of a physical change in the pitch of the partials caused through hammer voicing. these experiments are worth replicating, both in voicing and directional approach in tuning if anyone has the time, equipment and skills.

The difference I have perceived in whence I approach 'in tune' from are now incorporated into my tuning habits. I habitually set pins downwards when going out of the standard temperament area and stop at the first hint of smoothness in the octave then check the thirds and fifth for acceptability. This will put me where I want to be first time. If it doesn't, a little resetting. This works for me and i haven't noticed a difference whether the long steels are very sharp and the lowering distance is long or if they are not and I might need to bring the pitch 1Hz. Or so above and drop down onto pitch. I will certainly look for a difference in the future. Anyway, This gives me the narrowest octaves that I want in that area in a default general purpose tuning. Pin setting direction takes priority with any covered strings in that section.

Covered strings take a similar approach but the pin setting and NSL take priority over the direction of approach. I find here an upward setting is safer, particularly on uprights where the angles tend to be more acute.

The treble I often tune by tenths and seventeenths and check by octaves and fifths, etc. the direction of set varies greatly between the three pins of each unison but I generally feel much safer with an upward spring set of the pins are tight enough or an upward turned set with thumb pressure on tje lever at twelve o'clock.

The general principal in all this is to use as few moves as possible both for efficiency and to avoid heating up the string at the friction points. (part of the problem with a pitch raise, even of just a couple of Hz. Is the heat generated by the initial pull and so working too quickly can be disadvantageous. A leisurely pull is more efficient in the long run because there are fewer corrections for drift to make as the heat dissipates. I am always surprised how much less time a more leisurely general approach to a time limited pitch raise takes.

Now, would the heat generated at one end of the string cause a temporary physical difference in the partials? Worth taking into account in the experiment?

In the final analysis, it makes no difference to my methods whether the slight changes in perception have a physical cause or a psychological cause, it's the end result that matters.

Like the other discussions in this forum, while it may seem unnecessarily nitpicking, is worthwhile for the discoveries made that we can incorporate into our general tuning habits.

I always tune so that I'm making the next tuning easier and so that any pianist in the meantime can do their damnedest and it makes no difference. I remember walking off a stage after tuning and the pianist playfully said, as he walked on that he would knock it out again to which I replied, "I defy you!". I should start taking bets.

Addendum.
This localised heat generation and it's dissipation really brought itself to my attention after a student had spent a long time trying to get one string in tune and remembered about the friction and found the heat generated was tangible. I could feel it with my finger on the string and on the pressure bar. Finer degrees of this have to affect the ultra finesse that is part of tuning. It is for this reason that I object to unnecessary movement of the string, including the relatively recent ritual of lowering the string, sometimes by an alarming amount in the hope of preventing string breakage. I could make a case that excessive lowering or any extra movement of the string may be a major cause for at risk strings to break.

I might flex the pin in a downward direction but this is more to check the set of the pin. Certainly no turning is involved, but a well set pin will not release the string when flexed in this way but the flex has to be accompanied by a flex in the other direction even if the string didn't move and I didn't feel the pin string back. Either by a pull or a slap on the lever handle.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2387618 - 02/17/15 06:23 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: rXd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By rXd
Originally Posted By alfredo capurso

...............
My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.


Alfredo, this is what we call a loaded question. I can hear barrister Rumpole standing on his hind legs and saying, sotto voce; "Oh, don't lead, old darlin'". It's a bit like asking "when did you stop beating your wife?". Sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Many of your questions are of this nature.

It would be most unkind but it could be read as a reflex question or even a silly question but there are no stupid questions- only stupid answers.

However. I will answer it from the point of view of someone who is currently tuning a two octave temperament with;

"Quite frankly, in a word,... No!".

Doesn't it depend on who tuned it and how and with what intention for the rest of the piano?
An electronically set 5 adjacent notes can offer the greatest flexibility for the whole piano. Anybody ever tried that? Hybrid temperament sets all the typical tuning notes at their stated pitches (A,Bb&C. If anyone measures it, everything will be precise. Free Tuning apps are common these days. Often incorrectly read but commonly used by anybody, nonetheless. (with a well laid temperament this happens anyway).

I experiment all the time. I don't think I have ever tuned a temperament of any size the same way twice. All of it within the description of a darned good tuning. I often move a note to where it makes a difference to all the intervals involved but when I put the unison in there has been hardly any movement from where it was previously. Perhaps the whole thin is too subtle for practical purposes.

I can stretch to the max. Any fool can do that, most fools do as somebody has said. I can make a cogent argument that it might be best ( more reliably?) done by machine.

I have been elevated and called an ivory tower tuner but doesn't the tuner of domestic pianos have a duty get to know how to tune different ways when members of a musical family play other instruments that may be used in collaboration with the piano and still be within the bounds of ET.

I still want all my options open. Fortunately, for solo piano, big, vulgar romantic stuff, I can tune for max resonance but when other instruments are involved in ensemble, I don't need nor want all that resonance and can tune in a way that automatically does that by accommodating the intonation and far less stretch that is typical of all the other orchestral instruments. not many seem to understand that.

This week, I attended four masterclasses over the past two days given by principal players of the Berlin Phil. So I am highly elated. I attend orchestralasterclasses regularly, have done ever since I was involved with high level music education. mostly given by principals of international orchestras but this was something special.

Because of the last minute fly in fly out nature of these classes and the constant room usage, we had to use week old tunings with ten minute refinements on each at 440. Whenever the brass players demonstrated on their own instruments fresh out of their cases, they were beautifully in tune with the piano but when I heard them on TV tonight I didn't catch the tuning note but they were an average of 15c sharp which indicates 444-operating pitch,( rarely the same as tuning pitch in any orchestra). I had to leave early in each case do I didn't get a chance to talk.

I am continually immersed in collaborative music making with the piano. I briefly checked the 10ths and 17's on a professionally tuned harp today by a top flight orchestral harpist. They were almost exactly the same size that I aim for in piano collaborative work. That is as narrow as practicable . I was there to refine the piano it was being used with and I had permission to check pitch. Normally it's the other way round, the piano is tuned before the harpists come in.

My point is, there is no one way to tune a piano. To attempt to condemn one method as archaic is to attempt to call what the Berlin Phil is doing as archaic. The principles are still the same as when I was studying music full time. In fact my joy today comes from that. (OK, there are those who condemn the whole concept of a symphony orchestra as archaic)

Beethoven to Wagner articulation for trumpets is tha same with the Berlin as I was taught fifty years ago. Most trumpet players currently adopt a sloppy imprecise style, even with major orchestras. I had a long discussion about this with a well known conductor, being careful not to reference a recent recording where this was evident.

Thats what makes the Berlin so great. Calling something archaic in this way is a perjorative use of the word that can easily be overlooked when answering. Same with unreliable. Unreliable for what? As I have said and you have quoted, a temperament is set with forethought to how it works with the rest of the piano. It helps to be familiar with the make and model of the piano and even the idiosyncracies of a particular piano such as the winding tensions of a particular set of bass strings. These things are noticed when tuning the same make and model every time and hopefully rembered for each piano.

Having said that, larger pianos are more similar fhan different and smaller pianos will develop this own optimum tuning If tuned regularly by the same conciencious tuner.

There. Another long post. Sorry. It wasn't a simple question



Hi rXd,

Thank you for your posts, I read them with care and could see myself in some of the things you said. In a way you have been reassuring, as I can share a fair part of the sceneries you describe,.. does getting old make us well experienced or, it is experience that makes us old? :-) I am joking.

Say the truth, you do not like the word 'archaic'. :-)

I used it with the meaning of "marked by the characteristics of an earlier period; no longer applicable", in light of temperament models of these days and addressing an issue that too often is put aside: we need to temper the whole piano. In our case, the 'principle' is not the same as it was in the past, temper an octave and expand by copying octaves, the principle now is different: temper the whole piano and use larger intervals (x,y) as a reference. I have nothing against traditions, be it music, dance, etc., though now we are experiencing a different concept: also intervals larger than an octave need to be tempered, and perhaps the octave does not need to be 2:1.

You may be right though, that question of mine was perhaps 'loaded', maybe I should have said "I think that a one_octave_temperament is archaic and unreliable nowadays, what do you think?".

You wrote:..."I don't think I have ever tuned a temperament of any size the same way twice. All of it within the description of a darned good tuning. I often move a note to where it makes a difference to all the intervals involved but when I put the unison in there has been hardly any movement from where it was previously. Perhaps the whole thin is too subtle for practical purposes."...

Hmm..., that is you today, but... what was it like when you started tuning? I hope we can help beginners and young tuners, those who are going through what we had to go through, help them with the right information, considered that perhaps a whole life (in this field) is not enough.

You wrote:..."Fortunately, for solo piano, big, vulgar romantic stuff, I can tune for max resonance but when other instruments are involved in ensemble, I don't need nor want all that resonance and can tune in a way that automatically does that by accommodating the intonation and far less stretch that is typical of all the other orchestral instruments. not many seem to understand that."...

I would have a question there, :-) am I allowed? I will be back and comment also your other post. Thank you for describing so many details.

Best Regards, a.c.
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (02/17/15 06:25 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2387725 - 02/18/15 12:03 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2110
I love all words. I love the word archaic in all it's connotations. How do you get these ideas on the likes and dislikes of another?

Again, you make inferences and then ask questions based on your inference or interpretation. What you are doing is questioning your own inferences. Those are questions nobody can answer. Only you can.

Your after the fact explanation of how you used archaic is not convincing because you coupled it with the words "and unreliable".

"Archaic" coupled with the words "and unreliable"? You rephrased your question but still coupled these two words.

I write in long and hopefully coherent thoughts. You take one sentence out of context and question your inference from it. Since when have tenths and sevemteenths, implying ther connection to the third, of course, automatically form a 2-1 octave? Yet that is what you infer. Are you not denying your own knowledge and intelligence in order to make the is outrageous assumption?

I just got thru saying that there are many options yet you attempt to pin me down to just one while you attempt to promote your one way. This is classic projection.

My advocacy of a complete and thorough familiarity with all the interactions within a chosen temperament range you challenge as somehow not helping students. Would you teach chess without advocacy of mastering all the interconnected moves?

Every statement you make is of this nature. My words are taken with no thought to earlier contexts. Is it your memory, your comprehension or, maybe your agenda is overriding your intelligence. Why else would you attempt to revive your own dead or dormant thread in this deceitful and devious way if it weren't to keep your pet project alive when all others have long ago lost interest and abandoned it?

My posts from other threads have been used many times now in this abusive way to resurrect your capital threads from twelve months of obscurity . I notice nobody else has responded to your attempts at resurrection. Only I feel the need to correct your glaring misapprehensions. Only because it is exclusively my posts that you are taking, literally, out of context. To put it plainly, taking my post from another thread (context) and using them in each case, to bring back "life" your own agenda. By the notable absence of other posters here, nobody is interested. Least of all me. Let these posts die peacefully. As of right now.

I have been very patient with you, even overlooked your abusive and puerile name calling.

If this happens again, I shall refer the matter directly to the moderators for some sort of action. It is patently an abuse of the forums. Not only what you do but the way in which you repeatedly do it.

Maybe I should be flattered by the attention but I find it quite creepy.

I am grateful for the experience in dealing with cybercreepies on line in preparation for if I ever meet them in real life. So far I've managed to avoid them.

If other aspects of your life include stalking like this, it certainly adds credence to the option on these forums to be and remain anonymous.

Now. Either present your own fresh approach to keep your threads alive or let them die peacefully before I lose my patience.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2387976 - 02/18/15 01:54 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi,

Back to what I would like to investigate, about which I wrote three days ago.

Originally Posted By alfredo capurso

Hi All,

For some time I have been thinking of asking for your help in order to make 'objective' something I can observe. Considering a string and the tone it produces, I observe that partials can be spaced, and intervals can be better related to each other, depending on the tuning-hammer technique.

In other words, what I believe is that the original scaling of a piano can be somehow re-adjusted, meaning that there is a leeway, some 'room for manoeuvre' (is this idiom correct?) we can use, in a way re-ruling the relations amongst partial sounds of different strings.

What makes the difference would be how I/we get to the 'spot', whether we get there from a lower or a higher, or a much higher pitch.

No doubt, other colleagues may experience this. Actually, if you know of any research on this, or available data, please let me know.

I do not have the necessary equipment. Would any of you (pro or non-pro) like to get involved in this experimentation?

What might be needed is:

- some tuning-hammer skill, enough to be able to get to the spot;
- an ETD that indicates the spot;
- a reliable device that can record and analyze individual partial frequencies.

Comments, questions, suggestions and corrections are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.


I got some help and hope to be able to share some progress.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2388020 - 02/18/15 03:50 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 908
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Do you mean, for example:

Tune A5 to A4 coming from above and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch A at A5.
Tune A5 to A4 coming from below and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch B at A5.
What is the difference between pitch A and pitch B?
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2388041 - 02/18/15 05:31 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Chris Leslie]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By Chris Leslie
Do you mean, for example:

Tune A5 to A4 coming from above and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch A at A5.
Tune A5 to A4 coming from below and stopping when the octave first sounds beatless. Then measure the pitch B at A5.
What is the difference between pitch A and pitch B?


Yes, Chris, that is one type of test we could do, although we might be exposed to a variable, i.e. "when the octave first sounds beatless". That is why I was mentioning a non-aural device.

In the above case, we would then compare two pitches, pitch A and pitch B.

A second test might focus onto the partials, measuring how the individual tone's partials end up being spaced.

In this second case, together with A4(-A5), we may consider one more 'bottom pitch', say F4(-A5), or a note further down for a wider interval, like D4 or F3, and perhaps test the 'above/below' combinations between three pitchs and their partials' configuration?

Please, consider that I am in the "I wonder.." zone.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
Page 14 of 14 < 1 2 12 13 14

Moderator:  Piano World 
Trade Regrets - Gary Burgett
A tribute to Gary Burgett 1950-2015 one of the founders of PianoDisc and Mason & Hamlin. RIP Gary
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
Composer Statuettes
(ads) PD - WNG - MH
PianoDisc
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
New Topics - Multiple Forums
J. P. Schiedmayer, G 314
by Man
05/22/15 01:41 AM
First day at piano camp
by TwoSnowflakes
05/22/15 12:07 AM
New GEAR alert!
by Jay Roland
05/21/15 10:00 PM
John Thompson's Modern Course
by TheGift
05/21/15 06:32 PM
Few questions from a beginner.
by praisethesun
05/21/15 05:00 PM
What's Hot!!
New Forum for Selling Your Products or Services
--------------------
Historic Piano Documents
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Forum Stats
79,367 Registered Members
44 Forums
164,236 Topics
2,409,093 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission